A lot of magic players really are sexist and dumb though. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...&postcount=305 is frankly, ****ing disgusting and should be held as such, on it's own merits and weird "biotruths" angle (because biology trumps society so well, you see when I'm not doing 21st century things that our ancestors couldn't dream of, within a society with implications and rules they never even conceived I'm jumping from tree to tree, looking for bananas and trying to screw everything in sight)
The problem with any "ist" or "ism" is that anyone can label themselves as such. And then say dumb, counterproductive stuff like this whole, "shaming white males" thing. That is something that definitely needs to leave the paradigm in general, but it is STILL very relevant. The majority of people who , "dont get it," are just that. Privileged, white, and male. And it's not really persecution to call them out individually, or as a group, for saying/thinking things that are dumb, mean-spirited, or offensive. On the other hand, white males have the highest suicide rate in the United States, and we should also analyze how the systems we put in place, regarding gender roles especially, lets not even label it a "patriarchy" (even though that's essentially what it is), damages these folks in different ways, maybe not as MUCH as females, but definitely does its share of damage to them. Things such as Drafts, and War in general call upon males, based on the view of society that men are the strong warriors, and must go fight or else they are cowards. That they must bottle up, hide, or express their innermost emotions in weird, unhealthy ways, which leads to emotional trauma, depression, and often, unfortunately, suicide. And so on.
You know, this reaction alone pretty much summarizes why so many Magic players have trouble getting laid, or lets say, understanding a woman's perspective. Or just in general, not being douchebags about other people's feelings. Just saying. It's just so, smug and dismissive of real issues. It trivializes everything, and ends without a bang, but rather a large ripping fart, in the form of a trite and overused meme that implies that world would be better if we what. Just beat the **** out of each savagely, ignored issues like this, didn't critically analyze anything, didn't care about gender issues?
Well yes, I would argue that feminism and calls of "sexism" from woman are much more reactionary and defensive... can't put my finger on it but the years of oppression and marginalization, being paid less on average for the same jobs, not even getting to fricken vote in this country until the early 20th century, might have something to do with it... work to the even up the playing field, call out the pigs for their piglike behavior, and you will see society as a whole move toward the middle, for the better of everyone.
UFC is accepted, but so is bareknuckle boxing, which leaves many boxers literally half-retarded from repeated concussions, for the entertainment of others.
I don't actually think this graphic image is fine.. I am quite disturbed that we as a society find this entertaining, for the sake of the violence.
For the sake of the exercise, for the self-defense training, male bonding, for the real sport of it, I appreciate it. But here, I fail to see how this is much different from Roman coliseum bloodsport, except that it is much more, "toned down" in gruesome brutality.
Still, this is comparing apples and oranges. It's two men fighting, with money on the line, in the real world, and unless theres something going on here I'm not aware of, there isn't any sexuality at all between the two. Just competitors rivalry, and the urge to win fame, glory, and cash. Versus a fictionalized fight between a man and a woman, with a similar position.
Also, very important, notice here that the two men in the picture are evenly matched, physically. The card art clearly portrays a much more powerful man dominating a physically small woman.
Garruk is bigger than Liliana. There's no way around that no matter what the art is. He is bigger than her. She cursed him. Like I said before, this isn't a time for chivalry. He wants to kill her(and rightly so). And as far as "evenly matched", Lilliana is more powerful than Garruk and ends up winning the battle in question!
It's not apples to oranges. It's the same thing, just one of them happens to have a ***** now. It's two people physically fighting. Not raping. Fighting.
So, what you're telling me is context does matter. Because that's what your reasoning is, you laying out the context of the picture. You don't see man-rape in that UFC pic because you KNOW it's UFC. Just like everyone talking about this card knows it's not about rape, it's about the Curse from the Veil. Jackie Lee KNOWS this card isn't about rape, and accusing the artist of depicting it is self-righteous, wrong, rude, and disrespectful.
That UFC image could cause a rape trigger in any number of former inmates. Should UFC be required to tone it down a little?
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
UFC is accepted, but so is bareknuckle boxing, which leaves many boxers literally half-retarded from repeated concussions, for the entertainment of others.
I don't actually think this graphic image is fine.. I am quite disturbed that we as a society find this entertaining, for the sake of the violence.
For the sake of the exercise, for the self-defense training, male bonding, for the real sport of it, I appreciate it. But here, I fail to see how this is much different from Roman coliseum bloodsport, except that it is much more, "toned down" in gruesome brutality.
Still, this is comparing apples and oranges. It's two men fighting, with money on the line, in the real world, and unless theres something going on here I'm not aware of, there isn't any sexuality at all between the two. Just competitors rivalry, and the urge to win fame, glory, and cash. Versus a fictionalized fight between a man and a woman, with a similar position.
Also, very important, notice here that the two men in the picture are evenly matched, physically. The card art clearly portrays a much more powerful man dominating a physically small woman.
So at first you admit you do not agree that the UFC image isn't ok, and that UFC isn't an ok thing. You also admit that your opinion of it is atypical from the rest of society, meaning more so that you don't not reflect a typical point of view. It shows that you wouldn't accept typical and real world physical fighting as being something acceptable, but in a game involving killing your opponent this is practically a necessity.
Nothing was happening sexually between Garruk and Liliana, you list that point off as if, for a fact, something was, when in reality it has been 100% perceived.
What does one person overpowering a much weaker person have anything to do with this? Does that make it more sexual? If that's the case, then I guess we should throw stranglehold in here. One person's clearly stronger than the other. Also, Liliana's showing that they're more than just random people fighting, she has some sort of spell in her hand, which shows she's not simply a frail defenseless damsel.
All you've said is that the two pictures aren't comparable when the point made by Jackie Lee, which made Elaine Chase say the public apology, was that the picture alone can be conceived as sexual violence, context isn't the issue. So can this UFC image, and no one apologizes for it, because they're fighting.
How can we tell? Well the fist in the other guys face pretty much gives that away, much like garruk's fist raised above Liliana. I mean if we're really going to look at this piece, and assume rape. Why would he punch her face in? He's clearly much larger and could easily pin her arms down. Why are they both fully clothed? Why isn't he on top of her? Why isn't she afraid, at all? Assuming rape comes up with all these questions, and when we assume that they're fighting all we can come up with is a semi questionable position that still has a very violent action happening between both of them.
Viricide level: Feminism is about equalizing the natural or socially constructed inequalities between men and women, despite the high probability that they will always exist. It makes sense to give women special treatment because they are not the same as men. They have different strengths and weaknesses. It is only realistic to acknowledge and correct for these inequalities instead of being an idealist and pretending that everyone is equal when they suffer unequally.
So, in short Feminism is about oppressing men and not actually equal treatment.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge that male on female sexual violence is a serious issue, while male on male is relatively minor and female on male is trivial by comparison. Showing art or real life pictures of men fighting is a complete non sequitur, yet countless people seem to think it's a well reasoned rebuttal.
And jesus christ at the complaining about feminism, the complaining about it quite thoroughly convinces me of its necessity.
Why are you presuming to know what Jackie Lee knows? How is she being self-righteous? What evidence is there that she gets some sort of smug moral superiority out of this? If so, she is doing it for the wrong reasons. I don't believe this is reason why she is doing this. I certainly feel no particular superiority to others for my beliefs. What would even be the point of that? Could it just be that, *gasp*, there is something legitimate here, something that a large part of the predominantly male gaming community fails to see, or willfully ignores?
This, my friend, is self-righteousness. Turning this issue around in a smug way, being hyperbolic, sardonic, and sarcastic. These are the hallmarks of self-righteousness. What I see in Jackie Lee is merely the good, old-fashion righteousness. You and I have no idea the courage it must have taken to continue on playing MTG while a stream of ignorant morons called you a *****, hoped you lost, and repeatadly said they were going to rape you, for the crime of being a woman and playing a ****ing card game.
So, in short Feminism is about oppressing men and not actually equal treatment.
I hope this is sarcastic, or it takes the cake for the most ignorant post of the thread, by far. Even more than the biotruths abomination. In what way is Feminism about oppressing men? What rights, specifically , do they seek to take away from men, on a day by day basis. I'm taking about human rights. The right to sit where you want on a bus, get paid a wage comparable to your peers for the same amount of works, the right to walk about without being called offensive names, or physically/emotionally abused.
What rights are they seeking to take away, and how are they doing this?
Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge that male on female sexual violence is a serious issue, while male on male is relatively minor and female on male is trivial by comparison. Showing art or real life pictures of men fighting is a complete non sequitur, yet countless people seem to think it's a well reasoned rebuttal.
And jesus christ at the complaining about feminism, the complaining about it quite thoroughly convinces me of its necessity.
Because women shouldn't get special treatment because they are women and neither should men because they are men. If a person is capable of doing something they should be allowed to do it. Liliana is supposed to be a capable fighter so it shouldn't come off as a surprise to anyone that she gets into a fight. Fights are dirty and downright brutal yet people take offense when she is shown in a position that they construe to mean sexual assault. If a women isn't allowed to get into a down and dirty drug out fight, then that essentially sends a message that women need to be treated with kit gloves and that benefits nobody in the long run. It is patronizing.
The problem with any "ist" or "ism" is that anyone can label themselves as such. And then say dumb, counterproductive stuff like this whole, "shaming white males" thing. That is something that definitely needs to leave the paradigm in general, but it is STILL very relevant. The majority of people who , "dont get it," are just that. Privileged, white, and male. And it's not really persecution to call them out individually, or as a group, for saying/thinking things that are dumb, mean-spirited, or offensive.
Moral of this story. Being racist/sexist is wrong. Unless the group your being racist/sexist against is white males then not only is it right its encouraged. Because we all know those Cracker ass ********s deserve it.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge that male on female sexual violence is a serious issue, while male on male is relatively minor and female on male is trivial by comparison. Showing art or real life pictures of men fighting is a complete non sequitur, yet countless people seem to think it's a well reasoned rebuttal.
And jesus christ at the complaining about feminism, the complaining about it quite thoroughly convinces me of its necessity.
Except that it's not, and this type of thinking is exactly what belittles it, we are ALL people, and we should ALL be treated fairly. If you're going to fight sexual violence only when it's a male on female action and call it sexist, then you yourself are being sexist. "Oh its really w/e whenever there's art of man overpowering another man, I mean they're guys right? But when a man overpowers a woman, that's simply uncalled for."
Is that what you're really supporting there? You understand that there's a large portion of male rape that victims simply don't report right? That rape is awful despite the actual sexes involved? Can you take people's sexes out of rape? Or will you always prioritize which is more taboo? Rape is rape no matter what fashion it decides to show up in.
Why are you presuming to know what Jackie Lee knows? How is she being self-righteous? What evidence is there that she gets some sort of smug moral superiority out of this? If so, she is doing it for the wrong reasons. I don't believe this is reason why she is doing this. I certainly feel no particular superiority to others for my beliefs. What would even be the point of that? Could it just be that, *gasp*, there is something legitimate here, something that a large part of the predominantly male gaming community fails to see, or willfully ignores?
This, my friend, is self-righteousness. Turning this issue around in a smug way, being hyperbolic, sardonic, and sarcastic. These are the hallmarks of self-righteousness. What I see in Jackie Lee is merely the good, old-fashion righteousness. You and I have no idea the courage it must have taken to continue on playing MTG while a stream of ignorant morons called you a *****, hoped you lost, and repeatadly said they were going to rape you, for the crime of being a woman and playing a ****ing card game.
Except she does know it's not rape, she's admitted to knowing about the context of the card. The point she made is that it could be perceived as sexual violence, our point is that perceivable sexual violence is accepted widespread, in much more intense qualities.
Actually, seems more like labeling feminist/feminine perspective critiques of the artwork as seeking "special treatment" is the patronizing bit...
The red herring here, of course, is that the fighting is the source of the uproar. Which it is not, this is a distraction from the actual criticism. The criticism comes from the specifics through which the fight was portrayed. Liliana even getting punched by Garruk would have been acceptable, had the artwork merely been framed in a different way. I listed a number of acceptable ways that this could have been done. Even a blow struck to her, done similar to the black card, from a behind the head of Liliana perspective as Garruk pummeled her, would have been fine. The criticism comes from the placement of his knee, the spread legs, and how this can be perceived out of context. Because subtext is still a thing, and will always be. Because not everyone knows or cares about the story behind the two cards, even.
That is the source of the criticism, not even the idea that he would hit her in a fight. That's the point I've been trying to drive home here..
Moral of this story. Being racist/sexist is wrong. Unless the group your being racist/sexist against is white males then not only is it right its encouraged. Because we all know those Cracker ass ********s deserve it.
Srsly,
I agree with Professor Fansworth.
Oh please. Again. Who is being sexist/racist against white males? How are they doing it? Where? Show some examples, or get out. I have no tolerance for this kind of, "boo hoo, turn things around to make us into the real victims of systematic oppression." What is this, Fox News? Liberals are the real racists! Blah blah blah welfare plantation democrats!
This is kind of thinking that makes me even regret typing out lengthy responses, because people will just respond with this kind of sarcastic, self-righteous stuff, end it with a lame meme, and call it a day. Because you just read into it, refuse to see outside your own perspective as a presumably white male, and then get sarcastic instead of really sitting down and doing some deeper thinking on the issues.
How are white males treated with sexism/racism, on a systemic, widespread level? Explain this to me. Realistically, how often are you called a cracker, alienated, made to feel threatened or potentially sexually assaulted for being a white male?
Actually, seems more like labeling feminist/feminine perspective critiques of the artwork as seeking "special treatment" is the patronizing bit...
The red herring here, of course, is that the fighting is the source of the uproar. Which it is not, this is a distraction from the actual criticism. The criticism comes from the specifics through which the fight was portrayed. Liliana even getting punched by Garruk would have been acceptable, had the artwork merely been framed in a different way. I listed a number of acceptable ways that this could have been done. Even a blow struck to her, done similar to the black card, from a behind the head of Liliana perspective as Garruk pummeled her, would have been fine. The criticism comes from the placement of his knee, the spread legs, and how this can be perceived out of context. Because subtext is still a thing, and will always be. Because not everyone knows or cares about the story behind the two cards, even.
That is the source of the criticism, not even the idea that he would hit her in a fight. That's the point I've been trying to drive home here..
But, What if i came from a place in which the UFC/MMA wasn't common place and i saw the picture and perceived it to be one man attempting to rape the other. How is that not the same as someone not know the context of a MTG card and perceiving it to be a picture of a man about to rape a women?
It's not
Your perceptions is not reality regardless of if you believe it to be or not.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Do you guys think Garruk could take Junior Dos Santos?
Private Mod Note
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Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
Make the white queen run so fast, she hasn't got time to make you wise.
Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream.
Doctor, my eyes, tell me what you see. I hear their cries... just say if it's too late for me.
Doctor, my eyes...cannot see the sky. Is this the prize for having learned how not to cry?
I always wondered why people are more sensitive to rape than they are to murder. We play a game where summoning characters to die for us, and killing opposing characters is OK, but for some reason a card that could be taken out of context as rape is offensive. It boggles my mind.
But it really has opened my eyes. I say Misguided Rage today and realized that the goblin isn't choking the other goblin to kill it. It just really want to rape it. And Browbeat is clearly two people who want to rape that defenseless man. Relentless Assault is just two guys about to gang rape that soldier. Just look at him; he's on his knees!
But your perception that this card doesn't depict something overly, inappropriately sexual, of course, is reality? You see, this is the beauty of Privileged Position. Mr. White Male gets to decide what is and isn't offensive to all the other womenfolk, and if they get all uppity, then they're the real sexists. What utter absurd nonsense.
Okay, I'm actually thoroughly sick of this. That you cannot even fathom how awesome it is for you to have the privilege to not even have to think about what it's like to be treated differently, or mistreated, or sexualized, or sexually assaulted just for being of a different race or gender.
And then to aggressively deny and sarcastically dismiss others who try to make you aware of this adds insult to injury.
Except that it's not, and this type of thinking is exactly what belittles it, we are ALL people, and we should ALL be treated fairly. If you're going to fight sexual violence only when it's a male on female action and call it sexist, then you yourself are being sexist. "Oh its really w/e whenever there's art of man overpowering another man, I mean they're guys right? But when a man overpowers a woman, that's simply uncalled for."
Is that what you're really supporting there? You understand that there's a large portion of male rape that victims simply don't report right? That rape is awful despite the actual sexes involved? Can you take people's sexes out of rape? Or will you always prioritize which is more taboo? Rape is rape no matter what fashion it decides to show up in.
Scale matters. Rape is something that happens to a significant number of women and, furthermore, it's something that an even greater women have to be afraid of. The number of men who are raped or affected by the fear of such is very small in comparison. I'm not making any judgments about individual events, but when something happens to many, many, many more people it's a more serious problem.
Because women shouldn't get special treatment because they are women and neither should men because they are men. If a person is capable of doing something they should be allowed to do it. Liliana is supposed to be a capable fighter so it shouldn't come off as a surprise to anyone that she gets into a fight. Fights are dirty and downright brutal yet people take offense when she is shown in a position that they construe to mean sexual assault. If a women isn't allowed to get into a down and dirty drug out fight, then that essentially sends a message that women need to be treated with kit gloves and that benefits nobody in the long run. It is patronizing.
What it shows is that some people are uncomfortable with art that they feel resembles sexual assault too closely, though you are free to extrapolate wildly from their annoyance.
I always wondered why people are more sensitive to rape than they are to murder. We play a game where summoning characters to die for us, and killing opposing characters is OK, but for some reason a card that could be taken out of context as rape is offensive. It boggles my mind.
But it really has opened my eyes. I say Misguided Rage today and realized that the goblin isn't choking the other goblin to kill it. It just really want to rape it.
Cause things don't actually die, and it's just a game? Whereas rape isn't in the context of the game at all and is actually a very serious and bad thing, and is a part of our culture that is tied heavily to sexualization, which is in fact a part of most male dominated hobbies, including this game?
Every day I back in the day when I was in High School and wanted to play Lacrosse, but was told that I couldn't because I was a male and the school couldn't legally have a men's Lacrosse team do to Title IX.
Okay. This is something, I'll give you that, but even you must admit it is, frankly, a pretty mild example. School sports are a place where people of both genders are often told, sorry, you can't do X, because you're X. And it's all B.S., no matter who suffers.
First of all, what the crap? If your school didn't have a men's lacrosse team, dunno what to say. Mine did. And we had a football that had both female and male players. Sounds a bit fishy.. *shrug*
Second, title 9 is a two way street, so if you really felt discriminated against, there was definitely room for a major complaint/lawsuit here.
But you see, my main issue is with all discrimination based on gender, as are the majority of feminists...
Actually, seems more like labeling feminist/feminine perspective critiques of the artwork as seeking "special treatment" is the patronizing bit...
The red herring here, of course, is that the fighting is the source of the uproar. Which it is not, this is a distraction from the actual criticism. The criticism comes from the specifics through which the fight was portrayed. Liliana even getting punched by Garruk would have been acceptable, had the artwork merely been framed in a different way. I listed a number of acceptable ways that this could have been done. Even a blow struck to her, done similar to the black card, from a behind the head of Liliana perspective as Garruk pummeled her, would have been fine. The criticism comes from the placement of his knee, the spread legs, and how this can be perceived out of context. Because subtext is still a thing, and will always be. Because not everyone knows or cares about the story behind the two cards, even.
That is the source of the criticism, not even the idea that he would hit her in a fight. That's the point I've been trying to drive home here..
Oh please. Again. Who is being sexist/racist against white males? How are they doing it? Where? Show some examples, or get out. I have no tolerance for this kind of, "boo hoo, turn things around to make us into the real victims of systematic oppression." What is this, Fox News? Liberals are the real racists! Blah blah blah welfare plantation democrats!
This is kind of thinking that makes me even regret typing out lengthy responses, because people will just respond with this kind of sarcastic, self-righteous stuff, end it with a lame meme, and call it a day. Because you just read into it, refuse to see outside your own perspective as a presumably white male, and then get sarcastic instead of really sitting down and doing some deeper thinking on the issues.
How are white males treated with sexism/racism, on a systemic, widespread level? Explain this to me. Realistically, how often are you called a cracker, alienated, made to feel threatened or potentially sexually assaulted for being a white male?
Every day, back in the day, when I was in High School and wanted to play Lacrosse, but was told that I couldn't because I was a male and the school couldn't legally have a men's Lacrosse team due to Title IX.
Oh please. Again. Who is being sexist/racist against white males? How are they doing it? Where?
Your highly delusional if you don't think the blow statement is racist and sexist against white males.
Show some examples, or get out. I have no tolerance for this kind of, "boo hoo, turn things around to make us into the real victims of systematic oppression." What is this, Fox News? Liberals are the real racists! Blah blah blah welfare plantation democrats!
Not every white male feels this way just stop or is evil like your trying to portray them.
How are white males treated with sexism/racism, on a systemic, widespread level? Explain this to me. Realistically, how often are you called a cracker, alienated, made to feel threatened or potentially sexually assaulted for being a white male?
As a white male that spent my teen years in a Barrio i was called cracker pretty much on a daily basis, i have been jumped because i'm white and alienated... well yeah... Things like Beat up a White Kid Day happen quite often in poor areas where whites are the minorties.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Actually, seems more like labeling feminist/feminine perspective critiques of the artwork as seeking "special treatment" is the patronizing bit...
The red herring here, of course, is that the fighting is the source of the uproar. Which it is not, this is a distraction from the actual criticism. The criticism comes from the specifics through which the fight was portrayed. Liliana even getting punched by Garruk would have been acceptable, had the artwork merely been framed in a different way. I listed a number of acceptable ways that this could have been done. Even a blow struck to her, done similar to the black card, from a behind the head of Liliana perspective as Garruk pummeled her, would have been fine. The criticism comes from the placement of his knee, the spread legs, and how this can be perceived out of context. Because subtext is still a thing, and will always be. Because not everyone knows or cares about the story behind the two cards, even.
That is the source of the criticism, not even the idea that he would hit her in a fight. That's the point I've been trying to drive home here..
Oh please. Again. Who is being sexist/racist against white males? How are they doing it? Where? Show some examples, or get out. I have no tolerance for this kind of, "boo hoo, turn things around to make us into the real victims of systematic oppression." What is this, Fox News? Liberals are the real racists! Blah blah blah welfare plantation democrats!
This is kind of thinking that makes me even regret typing out lengthy responses, because people will just respond with this kind of sarcastic, self-righteous stuff, end it with a lame meme, and call it a day. Because you just read into it, refuse to see outside your own perspective as a presumably white male, and then get sarcastic instead of really sitting down and doing some deeper thinking on the issues.
How are white males treated with sexism/racism, on a systemic, widespread level? Explain this to me. Realistically, how often are you called a cracker, alienated, made to feel threatened or potentially sexually assaulted for being a white male?
Our point is that's what happens when you fight, if it can even be perceived as someone's "fault", then it would have to be the artist's. And not because they're sexist, but because they made a completely realistic fighting position. They weren't thinking about sexual violence, I'm sure they couldn't care less. Poses like that happen, all the time, regardless of sex.
This came from real world sceanarios, if a large man like Garruk, who more than likely is going to get in your face, is going to smash Liliana's face in, he'd probably want to pin her against something, in a way he could do while having one hand free. Like against a wall or rock or something. Rocks are slanted, does he really care about where her legs are? No, if he centers himself then he has a better angle of which to smash her face in. If someone like Garruk attacked someone like Liliana IRL, this is an easily feasible pose.
I don't understand, so simply because it isn't widespread makes sexism against males ignore-able? In context, because of what happened to women in the past and also today, what happens to males isn't an issue?
I'm gonna tell you, I'm a male soldier, and as such I'm faced with sexism on a daily basis. Every day when I go to do physical training, when I'm running or doing muscle failure, never can I let my sergeants catch a female out performing me. I HAVE to outperfom them, always, every 6 months when we go do a physical training test, which involves push-ups, sit-ups and a 2 mile run. The females have much smaller minimum requirement, for push-ups they only have to do 19, for the 2-mile they have to run an 18:54. MY minimums for those events are 42 and 15:54. IDK if you've ever ran a two mile, but 3 minutes is a huge difference in time. I mean I know why those differences are there, but that doesn't change that it's sexist. Those tests aren't just to stay in, they help with promotions. Hey it's ok though, women couldn't vote until the 20th century and are seen as sex symbols in today's society, somehow that has to deal with me working harder to get the same paycheck as them, but ok.
Also, probably a better idea to keep politics and racism out of this as it would make the convo even more muddled, and couldn't have the least bit to do with any of this.
Cause things don't actually die, and it's just a game? Whereas rape isn't in the context of the game at all and is actually a very serious and bad thing, and is a part of our culture that is tied heavily to sexualization, which is in fact a part of most male dominated hobbies, including this game?
Things don't actually die, and it's just a game. I agree. But in the same light, things don't actually get raped, and it's still just a game.
Seriously, I know that rape has a worse connotation, but why? I don't know about you guys, but I really don't see how rape is on a worse level than murder, in the real world. And I don't see why they should differ in a fantasy world.
There was a fair point raised earlier that anyone in this thread has already been exposed to the context and controversy behind the image. So to remedy this, I posted the image on Facebook, and asked people with no connection to Magic or prior knowledge of the image to post their thoughts. I'll add them in as they come. Here's the first 2.
These are NOT my words.
She's capable of defending herself with that fireball forming in her hand. If the roles were reversed, it would be heralded as a wonderful depiction of a femme fatale conquering the masculine idea of strength. Switch the roles and give the man a rainbow and it would be considered comical.
he's trying to kill her not rape her, I see no problem... unless the card is called forced entry, then there's totally a problem ;p
Yeah, that second one was the guy trying to steal some context info, but I think it's unbiased enough.
For reference, both responders are male. It's 3:30am, so I don't expect to get many responses until morning, but I bet I'll get a ton then.
Scale matters. Rape is something that happens to a significant number of women and, furthermore, it's something that an even greater women have to be afraid of. The number of men who are raped or affected by the fear of such is very small in comparison. I'm not making any judgments about individual events, but when something happens to many, many, many more people it's a more serious problem.
OK, so you really are saying that when a woman is raped, it's more serious than when a man is raped? Just because it happens to women more often?
Scale matters. Rape is something that happens to a significant number of women and, furthermore, it's something that an even greater women have to be afraid of. The number of men who are raped or affected by the fear of such is very small in comparison. I'm not making any judgments about individual events, but when something happens to many, many, many more people it's a more serious problem.
What it shows is that some people are uncomfortable with art that they feel resembles sexual assault too closely, though you are free to extrapolate wildly from their annoyance.
So it happens less to dudes, so it doesn't matter. By that logic, male on female rape doesn't happen AT ALL to men, so why should we care in the slightest how Jackie Lee or any other female feels on the matter?
What part of that card art resembles sexual assault more than it resembles that UFC fight?
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
OK, so you really are saying that when a woman is raped, it's more serious than when a man is raped? Just because it happens to women more often?
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that sexual violence against women is a more serious issue, because it is far more common. Something bad that happens to a large number of people is a bigger problem than something that happens to a significantly smaller number of people.
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The problem with any "ist" or "ism" is that anyone can label themselves as such. And then say dumb, counterproductive stuff like this whole, "shaming white males" thing. That is something that definitely needs to leave the paradigm in general, but it is STILL very relevant. The majority of people who , "dont get it," are just that. Privileged, white, and male. And it's not really persecution to call them out individually, or as a group, for saying/thinking things that are dumb, mean-spirited, or offensive. On the other hand, white males have the highest suicide rate in the United States, and we should also analyze how the systems we put in place, regarding gender roles especially, lets not even label it a "patriarchy" (even though that's essentially what it is), damages these folks in different ways, maybe not as MUCH as females, but definitely does its share of damage to them. Things such as Drafts, and War in general call upon males, based on the view of society that men are the strong warriors, and must go fight or else they are cowards. That they must bottle up, hide, or express their innermost emotions in weird, unhealthy ways, which leads to emotional trauma, depression, and often, unfortunately, suicide. And so on.
You know, this reaction alone pretty much summarizes why so many Magic players have trouble getting laid, or lets say, understanding a woman's perspective. Or just in general, not being douchebags about other people's feelings. Just saying. It's just so, smug and dismissive of real issues. It trivializes everything, and ends without a bang, but rather a large ripping fart, in the form of a trite and overused meme that implies that world would be better if we what. Just beat the **** out of each savagely, ignored issues like this, didn't critically analyze anything, didn't care about gender issues?
Garruk is bigger than Liliana. There's no way around that no matter what the art is. He is bigger than her. She cursed him. Like I said before, this isn't a time for chivalry. He wants to kill her(and rightly so). And as far as "evenly matched", Lilliana is more powerful than Garruk and ends up winning the battle in question!
It's not apples to oranges. It's the same thing, just one of them happens to have a ***** now. It's two people physically fighting. Not raping. Fighting.
So, what you're telling me is context does matter. Because that's what your reasoning is, you laying out the context of the picture. You don't see man-rape in that UFC pic because you KNOW it's UFC. Just like everyone talking about this card knows it's not about rape, it's about the Curse from the Veil. Jackie Lee KNOWS this card isn't about rape, and accusing the artist of depicting it is self-righteous, wrong, rude, and disrespectful.
That UFC image could cause a rape trigger in any number of former inmates. Should UFC be required to tone it down a little?
Nothing was happening sexually between Garruk and Liliana, you list that point off as if, for a fact, something was, when in reality it has been 100% perceived.
What does one person overpowering a much weaker person have anything to do with this? Does that make it more sexual? If that's the case, then I guess we should throw stranglehold in here. One person's clearly stronger than the other. Also, Liliana's showing that they're more than just random people fighting, she has some sort of spell in her hand, which shows she's not simply a frail defenseless damsel.
All you've said is that the two pictures aren't comparable when the point made by Jackie Lee, which made Elaine Chase say the public apology, was that the picture alone can be conceived as sexual violence, context isn't the issue. So can this UFC image, and no one apologizes for it, because they're fighting.
How can we tell? Well the fist in the other guys face pretty much gives that away, much like garruk's fist raised above Liliana. I mean if we're really going to look at this piece, and assume rape. Why would he punch her face in? He's clearly much larger and could easily pin her arms down. Why are they both fully clothed? Why isn't he on top of her? Why isn't she afraid, at all? Assuming rape comes up with all these questions, and when we assume that they're fighting all we can come up with is a semi questionable position that still has a very violent action happening between both of them.
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So, in short Feminism is about oppressing men and not actually equal treatment.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
And jesus christ at the complaining about feminism, the complaining about it quite thoroughly convinces me of its necessity.
This, my friend, is self-righteousness. Turning this issue around in a smug way, being hyperbolic, sardonic, and sarcastic. These are the hallmarks of self-righteousness. What I see in Jackie Lee is merely the good, old-fashion righteousness. You and I have no idea the courage it must have taken to continue on playing MTG while a stream of ignorant morons called you a *****, hoped you lost, and repeatadly said they were going to rape you, for the crime of being a woman and playing a ****ing card game.
I hope this is sarcastic, or it takes the cake for the most ignorant post of the thread, by far. Even more than the biotruths abomination. In what way is Feminism about oppressing men? What rights, specifically , do they seek to take away from men, on a day by day basis. I'm taking about human rights. The right to sit where you want on a bus, get paid a wage comparable to your peers for the same amount of works, the right to walk about without being called offensive names, or physically/emotionally abused.
What rights are they seeking to take away, and how are they doing this?
Because women shouldn't get special treatment because they are women and neither should men because they are men. If a person is capable of doing something they should be allowed to do it. Liliana is supposed to be a capable fighter so it shouldn't come off as a surprise to anyone that she gets into a fight. Fights are dirty and downright brutal yet people take offense when she is shown in a position that they construe to mean sexual assault. If a women isn't allowed to get into a down and dirty drug out fight, then that essentially sends a message that women need to be treated with kit gloves and that benefits nobody in the long run. It is patronizing.
Moral of this story. Being racist/sexist is wrong. Unless the group your being racist/sexist against is white males then not only is it right its encouraged. Because we all know those Cracker ass ********s deserve it.
Srsly,
I agree with Professor Fansworth.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Is that what you're really supporting there? You understand that there's a large portion of male rape that victims simply don't report right? That rape is awful despite the actual sexes involved? Can you take people's sexes out of rape? Or will you always prioritize which is more taboo? Rape is rape no matter what fashion it decides to show up in.
Except she does know it's not rape, she's admitted to knowing about the context of the card. The point she made is that it could be perceived as sexual violence, our point is that perceivable sexual violence is accepted widespread, in much more intense qualities.
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The red herring here, of course, is that the fighting is the source of the uproar. Which it is not, this is a distraction from the actual criticism. The criticism comes from the specifics through which the fight was portrayed. Liliana even getting punched by Garruk would have been acceptable, had the artwork merely been framed in a different way. I listed a number of acceptable ways that this could have been done. Even a blow struck to her, done similar to the black card, from a behind the head of Liliana perspective as Garruk pummeled her, would have been fine. The criticism comes from the placement of his knee, the spread legs, and how this can be perceived out of context. Because subtext is still a thing, and will always be. Because not everyone knows or cares about the story behind the two cards, even.
That is the source of the criticism, not even the idea that he would hit her in a fight. That's the point I've been trying to drive home here..
Oh please. Again. Who is being sexist/racist against white males? How are they doing it? Where? Show some examples, or get out. I have no tolerance for this kind of, "boo hoo, turn things around to make us into the real victims of systematic oppression." What is this, Fox News? Liberals are the real racists! Blah blah blah welfare plantation democrats!
This is kind of thinking that makes me even regret typing out lengthy responses, because people will just respond with this kind of sarcastic, self-righteous stuff, end it with a lame meme, and call it a day. Because you just read into it, refuse to see outside your own perspective as a presumably white male, and then get sarcastic instead of really sitting down and doing some deeper thinking on the issues.
How are white males treated with sexism/racism, on a systemic, widespread level? Explain this to me. Realistically, how often are you called a cracker, alienated, made to feel threatened or potentially sexually assaulted for being a white male?
But, What if i came from a place in which the UFC/MMA wasn't common place and i saw the picture and perceived it to be one man attempting to rape the other. How is that not the same as someone not know the context of a MTG card and perceiving it to be a picture of a man about to rape a women?
Your perceptions is not reality regardless of if you believe it to be or not.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Make the white queen run so fast, she hasn't got time to make you wise.
Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream.
Doctor, my eyes, tell me what you see. I hear their cries... just say if it's too late for me.
Doctor, my eyes...cannot see the sky. Is this the prize for having learned how not to cry?
But it really has opened my eyes. I say Misguided Rage today and realized that the goblin isn't choking the other goblin to kill it. It just really want to rape it. And Browbeat is clearly two people who want to rape that defenseless man. Relentless Assault is just two guys about to gang rape that soldier. Just look at him; he's on his knees!
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
in like a Philosophy 100 class or summat.
But your perception that this card doesn't depict something overly, inappropriately sexual, of course, is reality? You see, this is the beauty of Privileged Position. Mr. White Male gets to decide what is and isn't offensive to all the other womenfolk, and if they get all uppity, then they're the real sexists. What utter absurd nonsense.
Okay, I'm actually thoroughly sick of this. That you cannot even fathom how awesome it is for you to have the privilege to not even have to think about what it's like to be treated differently, or mistreated, or sexualized, or sexually assaulted just for being of a different race or gender.
And then to aggressively deny and sarcastically dismiss others who try to make you aware of this adds insult to injury.
Scale matters. Rape is something that happens to a significant number of women and, furthermore, it's something that an even greater women have to be afraid of. The number of men who are raped or affected by the fear of such is very small in comparison. I'm not making any judgments about individual events, but when something happens to many, many, many more people it's a more serious problem.
What it shows is that some people are uncomfortable with art that they feel resembles sexual assault too closely, though you are free to extrapolate wildly from their annoyance.
Cause things don't actually die, and it's just a game? Whereas rape isn't in the context of the game at all and is actually a very serious and bad thing, and is a part of our culture that is tied heavily to sexualization, which is in fact a part of most male dominated hobbies, including this game?
Okay. This is something, I'll give you that, but even you must admit it is, frankly, a pretty mild example. School sports are a place where people of both genders are often told, sorry, you can't do X, because you're X. And it's all B.S., no matter who suffers.
First of all, what the crap? If your school didn't have a men's lacrosse team, dunno what to say. Mine did. And we had a football that had both female and male players. Sounds a bit fishy.. *shrug*
Second, title 9 is a two way street, so if you really felt discriminated against, there was definitely room for a major complaint/lawsuit here.
But you see, my main issue is with all discrimination based on gender, as are the majority of feminists...
Every day, back in the day, when I was in High School and wanted to play Lacrosse, but was told that I couldn't because I was a male and the school couldn't legally have a men's Lacrosse team due to Title IX.
Your highly delusional if you don't think the blow statement is racist and sexist against white males.
Not every white male feels this way just stop or is evil like your trying to portray them.
As a white male that spent my teen years in a Barrio i was called cracker pretty much on a daily basis, i have been jumped because i'm white and alienated... well yeah... Things like Beat up a White Kid Day happen quite often in poor areas where whites are the minorties.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
This came from real world sceanarios, if a large man like Garruk, who more than likely is going to get in your face, is going to smash Liliana's face in, he'd probably want to pin her against something, in a way he could do while having one hand free. Like against a wall or rock or something. Rocks are slanted, does he really care about where her legs are? No, if he centers himself then he has a better angle of which to smash her face in. If someone like Garruk attacked someone like Liliana IRL, this is an easily feasible pose.
I don't understand, so simply because it isn't widespread makes sexism against males ignore-able? In context, because of what happened to women in the past and also today, what happens to males isn't an issue?
I'm gonna tell you, I'm a male soldier, and as such I'm faced with sexism on a daily basis. Every day when I go to do physical training, when I'm running or doing muscle failure, never can I let my sergeants catch a female out performing me. I HAVE to outperfom them, always, every 6 months when we go do a physical training test, which involves push-ups, sit-ups and a 2 mile run. The females have much smaller minimum requirement, for push-ups they only have to do 19, for the 2-mile they have to run an 18:54. MY minimums for those events are 42 and 15:54. IDK if you've ever ran a two mile, but 3 minutes is a huge difference in time. I mean I know why those differences are there, but that doesn't change that it's sexist. Those tests aren't just to stay in, they help with promotions. Hey it's ok though, women couldn't vote until the 20th century and are seen as sex symbols in today's society, somehow that has to deal with me working harder to get the same paycheck as them, but ok.
Also, probably a better idea to keep politics and racism out of this as it would make the convo even more muddled, and couldn't have the least bit to do with any of this.
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Things don't actually die, and it's just a game. I agree. But in the same light, things don't actually get raped, and it's still just a game.
Seriously, I know that rape has a worse connotation, but why? I don't know about you guys, but I really don't see how rape is on a worse level than murder, in the real world. And I don't see why they should differ in a fantasy world.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
These are NOT my words.
Yeah, that second one was the guy trying to steal some context info, but I think it's unbiased enough.
For reference, both responders are male. It's 3:30am, so I don't expect to get many responses until morning, but I bet I'll get a ton then.
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So it happens less to dudes, so it doesn't matter. By that logic, male on female rape doesn't happen AT ALL to men, so why should we care in the slightest how Jackie Lee or any other female feels on the matter?
What part of that card art resembles sexual assault more than it resembles that UFC fight?
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that sexual violence against women is a more serious issue, because it is far more common. Something bad that happens to a large number of people is a bigger problem than something that happens to a significantly smaller number of people.