Your highly delusional if you don't think the blow statement is racist and sexist against white males.
Not every white male feels this way just stop or is evil like your trying to portray them.
Essentially, "You're highly delusional if you don't think like I do." Classic statement from a position of privilege.
I'm not trying to portray all white males as evil. Never was. That is complete nonsense that you pulled out of your ass.
All racism , and all sexism, is wrong. Regardless of who is the victim. So, if you expect others to defend and protect you from being called a cracker, or being targeted or bullied for being white, you need to make alliances by opening your mind to the culture, experiences, and along with that, the suffering of other groups, instead of retreating and becoming insular and dismissive of the plight of minorities groups, especially women, who frankly really do have it rough. Sexual assault is a very real, and very horrible thing, and we'd be remiss to ignore the fact that outside of prison, it is an issue that primarily women have to deal with. Period.
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that sexual violence against women is a more serious issue, because it is far more common. Something bad that happens to a large number of people is a bigger problem than something that happens to a significantly smaller number of people.
Just give up dude. This is their method of argument. Take what you say, distort it into something like, "So it's more serious when women are raped than men", or "So I guess sexism/racism is only okay when it's against white males", even though you never said or implied this, and put the words in your mouth. It's a disingenuous psychological device designed for god only knows what, maybe to ignore or mitigate internal privilege. Or perhaps to just annoy and troll the **** out of us.
edit: Welp, I double posted. Guess the banhammer is a'comin down on meh.
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that sexual violence against women is a more serious issue, because it is far more common. Something bad that happens to a large number of people is a bigger problem than something that happens to a significantly smaller number of people.
I'm gonna stop you right here, because this is so ridiculous. I'll tell you, from a first hand account that there isn't anyway that what happened to me was less serious because of my sex. Rape is rape, it's awful and it ruins the lives of it's victims and doesn't care what sex they are. Rape happens to people, not sexes. If you're going to call this sexually violent then fine, but don't call it sexist. Nobody is exempt from rape, and no matter who it happens to, it's ALWAYS an equally serious issue.
Just give up dude. This is their method of argument. Take what you say, distort it into something like, "So it's more serious when women are raped than men", or "So I guess sexism/racism is only okay when it's against white males", even though you never said or implied this, and put the words in your mouth. It's a disingenuous psychological device designed for god only knows what, maybe to ignore or mitigate internal privilege. Or perhaps to just annoy and troll the **** out of us.
edit: Welp, I double posted. Guess the banhammer is a'comin down on meh.
He's literary saying it's not as serious issue as long as it's happening to a smaller group, and saying the smaller group are males. Idk how I can twist his words into something into what he's literary saying.
But your perception that this card doesn't depict something overly, inappropriately sexual, of course, is reality?
But, it's not my perception of the art. It's the what the artist trying to depict. If this was interpretive art you would have a point. But it's not. So the reality of the art isn't up for discussion. It's a fight with context, not w/o.
You see, this is the beauty of Privileged Position. Mr. White Male gets to decide what is and isn't offensive to all the other womenfolk, and if they get all uppity, then they're the real sexists. What utter absurd nonsense.
Okay, I'm actually thoroughly sick of this. That you cannot even fathom how awesome it is for you to have the privilege to not even have to think about what it's like to be treated differently, or mistreated, or sexualized, or sexually assaulted just for being of a different race or gender.
And then to aggressively deny and sarcastically dismiss others who try to make you aware of this adds insult to injury.
Moral of the story white males are evil and have never and are incapable of being treated differently, mistreated or sexualized, or sexually assaulted of be a different race or gender. Chippendales isn't a thing, domestic violence against men has never been reported and no one is ever used a racist slur against white people like "cracker".
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
I'm gonna stop you right here, because this is so ridiculous. I'll tell you, from a first hand account that there isn't anyway that what happened to me was less serious because of my sex. Rape is rape, it's awful and it ruins the lives of it's victims and doesn't care what sex they are. Rape happens to people, not sexes. If you're going to call this sexually violent then fine, but don't call it sexist. Nobody is exempt from rape, and no matter who it happens to, it's ALWAYS an equally serious issue.
He's literary saying it's not as serious issue as long as it's happening to a smaller group, and saying the smaller group are males. Idk how I can twist his words into something into what he's literary saying.
My point is not (and was not at any point) that individual cases are less serious when men victims. My point is that, when taken as a whole, sexual violence against men is much less of a problem, because there are so many fewer victims. That something terrible that affects an order of magnitude or so more people than something else terrible is a more serious issue is simply a fact, though you seem intent on turning it into me saying that raping men is fine or something along those lines that was never said or intended.
I'm gonna tell you, I'm a male soldier, and as such I'm faced with sexism on a daily basis. Every day when I go to do physical training, when I'm running or doing muscle failure, never can I let my sergeants catch a female out performing me. I HAVE to outperfom them, always, every 6 months when we go do a physical training test, which involves push-ups, sit-ups and a 2 mile run. The females have much smaller minimum requirement, for push-ups they only have to do 19, for the 2-mile they have to run an 18:54. MY minimums for those events are 42 and 15:54. IDK if you've ever ran a two mile, but 3 minutes is a huge difference in time. I mean I know why those differences are there, but that doesn't change that it's sexist. Those tests aren't just to stay in, they help with promotions. Hey it's ok though, women couldn't vote until the 20th century and are seen as sex symbols in today's society, somehow that has to deal with me working harder to get the same paycheck as them, but ok.
This is the point. The issue with gender roles is that they hurt both genders in different ways. You're pushing the crap you have to put up with (which must be really, really annoying) onto the wrong people here. It is the very same system that oppresses women that also oppresses men. It just happens in different ways. The entire paradigm just causes suffering for both of the genders. So for you to take your experience of physical, soldier training, and use it as an excuse to dismiss the injustices dealt out to women, is the in fact this very same system misdirecting your anger away from it, and onto the other group of victims of this whole sordid affair. Because from your perspective, they don't have to work as hard as you, physically, and you are expected as a man to be stronger than them, or else your manhood is at stake. But your anger at this admitted bullcrap is placed onto the women, who didn't set these standards either, and probably don't like that they are automatically considered inferior very much, either.
Regardless, I appreciate your service and wish only the very best for you. Just something to think about.
Moral of the story white males are evil and have never and are incapable of being treated differently, mistreated or sexualized, or sexually assaulted of be a different race or gender. Chippendales isn't a thing, domestic violence against men has never been reported and no one is ever used a racist slur against white people like "cracker".
:headbang:
Stop attributing these notions to me. Stop trying to imply that I am saying this. I am not. I never said this. Seriously. Now I have reached my limit. If you have to resort to just constantly making words up to put in my mouth, than you have no place in a rational discussion. Go live in your fantasy bubble where I'm out to get you and other white males, and you can just say whatever you want and fill it in for what I'm saying. I'm sick of it. Ignored, with a vengeance.
All racism , and all sexism, is wrong. Regardless of who is the victim. So, if you expect others to defend and protect you from being called a cracker, or being targeted or bullied for being white, you need to make alliances by opening your mind to the culture, experiences, and along with that, the suffering of other groups, instead of retreating and becoming insular and dismissive of the plight of minorities groups, especially women, who frankly really do have it rough. Sexual assault is a very real, and very horrible thing, and we'd be remiss to ignore the fact that outside of prison, it is an issue that primarily women have to deal with. Period.
That has always been my main point of contention. The problem is Sexism isn't occuring here because you believe it is. It you know has to actually occur, not because you take something out of context and claim you know more about it's intended message the the artist who drew the piece. I'm not being dismissive of the plight of minorities at all. I'm being dismissive of you tell other people what they said and ment. The piece in question clearly has not intent to promote sexual assault against women. Pretty much the opposite of what happened with the banned playmat a few much backs. Which was you know actually sexist.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
he was actually just using your words, you did say EXACTLY what he was saying you said
and the fact that you cant see that, tells alot about you and your mindset
Quote me. Show me where I said this then. I said, and I quote, "domestic violence never happens against men, All white males are evil,etc. etc.?" No. I never said any of that.
Matter of fact, I said a number of times that gender roles hurt BOTH genders. You can quote me on that.
The fact that you are willing to read whatever you want in a persons words, and not back it up with quotations says a lot about you, to be honest.
My point is not (and was not at any point) that individual cases are less serious when men victims. My point is that, when taken as a whole, sexual violence against men is much less of a problem, because there are so many fewer victims. That something terrible that affects an order of magnitude or so more people than something else terrible is a more serious issue is simply a fact, though you seem intent on turning it into me saying that raping men is fine or something along those lines that was never said or intended.
The only difference between men being raped and women being raped is that it may (and I say may because a lot of male victims do NOT report) happen less to males. It is not less of a problem, they are not to be prioritized one over the other, that will never be the proper way in which to refer to it. You think quantity can decrease the importance of an issue, when rape happens to a person it can destroy their entire lives, and that means lives are at stake. Lives are never meant to be weighed.
The number, if even that, is the only difference, that's where it ends.
This is the point. The issue with gender roles is that they hurt both genders in different ways. You're pushing the crap you have to put up with (which must be really, really annoying) onto the wrong people here. It is the very same system that oppresses women that also oppresses men. It just happens in different ways. The entire paradigm just causes suffering for both of the genders. So for you to take your experience of physical, soldier training, and use it as an excuse to dismiss the injustices dealt out to women, is the in fact this very same system misdirecting your anger away from it, and onto the other group of victims of this whole sordid affair. Because from your perspective, they don't have to work as hard as you, physically, and you are expected as a man to be stronger than them, or else your manhood is at stake. But your anger at this admitted bullcrap is placed onto the women, who didn't set these standards either, and probably don't like that they are automatically considered inferior very much, either.
Regardless, I appreciate your service and wish only the very best for you. Just something to think about.
It's not my manhood at stake, those tests are to keep our jobs, and I am not blaming any female. You wanted an example of widespread sexism against males. This is the standard, military wide.
Sexism isn't ok in any facet, and just like rape, it shouldn't be measured one against the other. If you're going to fight sexism fine, but don't belittle the parts of it you consider to be less of an issue. Even more so when you don't understand the full scope of what you're talking about. You think sexism against males is going to crop up and out at you like there's sexism against females, it happens differently to us, we have different stereotypes. Throughout my public school years, I also experienced several accounts of sexism whenever I had revealed that I was bi, instant pariah I was, but all the females that came out couldn't have been more popular around school. Sexism against males doesn't see any less daylight than when it happens to females.
I don't consider it to be less of an issue. This is a projection onto me. Bisexuality sigmas in our culture amongst men and women are a very serious issue. It stems a lot, however, from straight men wanting to see women engage in sexual acts with other women, more so than men with other men. It comes back to this paradigm again...
And frankly, I've heard complaints, the exact same as yours, coming from women in the military, so I really don't know what the say on the matter. It's just a convoluted mess, as is the entire issue of sexism.
no need, Commons already quoted the relevant part, just go back and read it
So yea. I didn't actually say any of those things in that quote. Never said white males were evil, or any of it. I pointed out the veil that privilege can bring, and how it can cloud ones judgment, and this is, in turn , interpreted as such as a vicious attack on white men? Again, says more about you and him that it does about anyone else. Keep tilting at windmills, boys.
Which just confirms that at this point, people are just making up whatever they wanna hear in order to portray others as a strawman. A good sign that this debate has turned into nothing more than a simple argument.
Quote me. Show me where I said this then. I said, and I quote, "domestic violence never happens against men, All white males are evil,etc. etc.?" No. I never said any of that.
Matter of fact, I said a number of times that gender roles hurt BOTH genders. You can quote me on that.
The fact that you are willing to read whatever you want in a persons words, and not back it up with quotations says a lot about you, to be honest.
But your perception that this card doesn't depict something overly, inappropriately sexual, of course, is reality? You see, this is the beauty of Privileged Position. Mr. White Male gets to decide what is and isn't offensive to all the other womenfolk, and if they get all uppity, then they're the real sexists. What utter absurd nonsense.
Okay, I'm actually thoroughly sick of this. That you cannot even fathom how awesome it is for you to have the privilege to not even have to think about what it's like to be treated differently, or mistreated, or sexualized, or sexually assaulted just for being of a different race or gender.
And then to aggressively deny and sarcastically dismiss others who try to make you aware of this adds insult to injury.
While not verbatim. It is what you said. White males have never been see bold paragraph. Keep digging that hole though. I'm done here.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
I don't consider it to be less of an issue. This is a projection onto me. Bisexuality sigmas in our culture amongst men and women are a very serious issue. It stems a lot, however, from straight men wanting to see women engage in sexual acts with other women, more so than men with other men. It comes back to this paradigm again...
Oh please. Again. Who is being sexist/racist against white males? How are they doing it? Where? Show some examples, or get out. I have no tolerance for this kind of, "boo hoo, turn things around to make us into the real victims of systematic oppression." What is this, Fox News? Liberals are the real racists! Blah blah blah welfare plantation democrats!
This is kind of thinking that makes me even regret typing out lengthy responses, because people will just respond with this kind of sarcastic, self-righteous stuff, end it with a lame meme, and call it a day. Because you just read into it, refuse to see outside your own perspective as a presumably white male, and then get sarcastic instead of really sitting down and doing some deeper thinking on the issues.
How are white males treated with sexism/racism, on a systemic, widespread level? Explain this to me. Realistically, how often are you called a cracker, alienated, made to feel threatened or potentially sexually assaulted for being a white male?
Made it seem like sexism against males wasn't such an issue to be dealt with in comparison, in your opinion.
EDIT: Commons also points out more of you distancing and belittling male sexism.
Not really. It was more a response to the ridiculous idea in general of everyone looking to become the next "oppressed group" seeking sympathy. Conservatives are wholesome and being oppressed by shady and devilish liberals, who are the real racists. Liberals are being oppressed by a group of uneducated racist hicks who vote against their own interests. White males are the most oppressed group, and to say otherwise or say , "hey, on average you don't have it as bad as other groups" means your excusing all , individual cases of mistreatment of people within the group. It was a hyperbolic, "**** you" to the hyperbolic and frankly, obnoxious style of "Fox News" or similar pundits employed by a few posters in the thread. It was some fresh meat for the sharks, so to speak. Not you though, Sabett. Not at all. I think you are very thoughtful, and actually argue very rationally. It is actually enjoyable talking to you, and I feel like I learn something and perfect my craft. Where dealing with someone like Commons is just an exercise in irritation, as I have to deal with every logical fallacy in the book thrown at me ad nauseum. Which is why the ignore list is a wonderful thing.
The only difference between men being raped and women being raped is that it may (and I say may because a lot of male victims do NOT report) happen less to males. It is not less of a problem, they are not to be prioritized one over the other, that will never be the proper way in which to refer to it. You think quantity can decrease the importance of an issue, when rape happens to a person it can destroy their entire lives, and that means lives are at stake. Lives are never meant to be weighed.
The number, if even that, is the only difference, that's where it ends.
Except... when they are? Given the choice between saving 1 people and saving 10 I think most people would pick the 10- something bad is a bigger problem for society when it happens to more people. There are plenty of other examples that illustrate the point, though again I must stress that am not saying that what happens less often is less morally repugnant, simply that, well, it doesn't have as great a negative effect when aggregated.
This whole debate seems ridiculous here, we're talking about a piece of art in a card game. You can't just take something out of context and call it sexist, you're just feigning ignorance to make a point which doesn't work. The artist was given characters and a story to work with, you can't just ignore these things to try and make an issue out of something that isn't there in the first place.
As horrible as sexism and racism are in real life, warping harmless incidents like this to further your beliefs only adds to the problem. The only way this art can be sexist is if you want it to be, despite all context to the contrary.
To everyone who thinks that there is a problem with this picture, how would you convey that Garruk is on the verge of beating Liliana in a fight? Remember, Garruk's magic is weakened to the point where it isn't going to be effective enough against Liliana, who is a superior opponent.
To everyone who thinks that there is a problem with this picture, how would you convey that Garruk is on the verge of beating Liliana in a fight? Remember, Garruk's magic is weakened to the point where it isn't going to be effective enough against Liliana, who is a superior opponent.
My first thought is to depict Garruk standing behind liliana, with both of his hands fisted together and he just clubbed Lili in the back of the head and she is flying towards the viewer, sort of as a mirror to Triumph of Cruelty with the way they are standing.
This art would not be as epic as the current one, but it would make a passable replacement.
My first thought is to depict Garruk standing behind liliana, with both of his hands fisted together and he just clubbed Lili in the back of the head and she is flying towards the viewer, sort of as a mirror to Triumph of Cruelty with the way they are standing.
This art would not be as epic as the current one, but it would make a passable replacement.
The problem is that as we know, Garruk didn't win the fight. The artwork was intended to portray a moment that Garruk was winning, not that Garruk has won. By portraying Garruk clubbing Liliana and Liliana being flinged off shows instead that Garruk was won and probably knocked out/killed Liliana, which makes the favour text and Triumph of Cruelty illogical.
It's still not colorless, and has no color. That's a paradox. So either you're a Zen master or an idiot, I'll assume the Zen master for sake of argument. This card will have no paradoxes because it has a clear paradox. Deep stuff man.
The problem is that as we know, Garruk didn't win the fight. The artwork was intended to portray a moment that Garruk was winning, not that Garruk has won. By portraying Garruk clubbing Liliana and Liliana being flinged off shows instead that Garruk was won and probably knocked out/killed Liliana, which makes the favour text and Triumph of Cruelty illogical.
Then something like what was suggested earlier, her being pinned to a tree.
Scene: Liliana is pinned to a tree by her throat, being held with her feet 3 or 4 feet off the ground (cause Garruk is freaking huge) and Garruk is about to pulp her head with his spiky wrist. She is still holding a ball of flame/whatever and looks royally pissed.
Edit: Actually, this would be an awesome art for the card IMO, i should get some alters done of this
Then something like what was suggested earlier, her being pinned to a tree.
Scene: Liliana is pinned to a tree by her throat, being held with her feet 3 or 4 feet off the ground (cause Garruk is freaking huge) and Garruk is about to pulp her head with his spiky wrist. She is still holding a ball of flame/whatever and looks royally pissed.
Edit: Actually, this would be an awesome art for the card IMO, i should get some alters done of this
If he held her upward rather than down, it would suddenly be a lot less sexual?
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Club Flamingo | Lots
If he held her upward rather than down, it would suddenly be a lot less sexual?
I think it's kind of hard to rape someone when you are holding them slightly above your head.
Also, this removes the 'looming over a helpless woman' aspect of the current art, so it will be harder to find this art offensive.
If he held her upward rather than down, it would suddenly be a lot less sexual?
Well, yeah. Of course. The reason the picture is reminiscent of sexual assault for some viewers is almost all down to the pose. Changing it to a pose that removes that connotation fixes that problem.
---
For the record, I personally have no issues with this art (well, apart from Liliana's ridiculously skimpy outfit for wandering around a swamp in, but that's more of a personal pet peeve with costume designs for women in fantasy generally). Specifically, I don't personally see the uncomfortable connotations that some people are seeing in it. The key, for me, is that Liliana's expression and body language strongly communicate a sense of "aggressive combatant" rather than "struggling victim" that makes it hard for me to see the scene in any but the intended light. But that's my impression, and I understand that reasonable people can have differing ones.
You could argue that people are being over-sensitive, but you know what? This is the kind of thing people are allowed to be sensitive about, if anything is. Bottom line, because of an unfortunate accident of pose in the scene, for a noticeable fraction of players the artwork is reminiscent of sexual assault, and that connotation is very uncomfortable for many, even though they understand it wasn't intentional.
That's a valid response, and those of us who don't see it should still be understanding that this is something people may legitimately be very sensitive to. If Wizards is going to be extra careful in the future to avoid these kinds of unintended visual suggestions, that's nothing but good. It benefits some number of players, costs the rest of us nothing, and costs Wizards only a little more time spent composing certain scenes. There really isn't a downside to that.
Cause things don't actually die, and it's just a game? Whereas rape isn't in the context of the game at all and is actually a very serious and bad thing, and is a part of our culture that is tied heavily to sexualization, which is in fact a part of most male dominated hobbies, including this game?
Okay. This is something, I'll give you that, but even you must admit it is, frankly, a pretty mild example. School sports are a place where people of both genders are often told, sorry, you can't do X, because you're X. And it's all B.S., no matter who suffers.
First of all, what the crap? If your school didn't have a men's lacrosse team, dunno what to say. Mine did. And we had a football that had both female and male players. Sounds a bit fishy.. *shrug*
Second, title 9 is a two way street, so if you really felt discriminated against, there was definitely room for a major complaint/lawsuit here.
But you see, my main issue is with all discrimination based on gender, as are the majority of feminists...
That isn't how Title IX works, I can't file a complaint/lawsuit because the school was following the rules by not having a men's lacrosse team. My high school was 6A football champions and had a lot of money put into the football team to the point that the school wasn't allowed to have any of the following: Lacrosse, Volleyball, Water Polo and the only reason I was allowed to play on the Tennis team was because it was co-ed. It has to be one of the most anti-male laws ever signed into existence.
I don't quite understand how portraying rape is worse than portraying murder.
Murder might seem to be a harsh word to use, but in the same way, so is rape. Neither is actually happening, but one evokes a huge response and the other is really taken as a given in a fantasy card game.
That's not to say that I don't find images of rape (or implied rape) more offensive than those images of murder, I just really don't know why.
I don't quite understand how portraying rape is worse than portraying murder.
Murder might seem to be a harsh word to use, but in the same way, so is rape. Neither is actually happening, but one evokes a huge response and the other is really taken as a given in a fantasy card game.
That's not to say that I don't find images of rape (or implied rape) more offensive than those images of murder, I just really don't know why.
Because it is easier to justify intentional murder (possible vigilante) than intentional rape. Because of the mantra that "death before dishonour".
It's still not colorless, and has no color. That's a paradox. So either you're a Zen master or an idiot, I'll assume the Zen master for sake of argument. This card will have no paradoxes because it has a clear paradox. Deep stuff man.
Essentially, "You're highly delusional if you don't think like I do." Classic statement from a position of privilege.
I'm not trying to portray all white males as evil. Never was. That is complete nonsense that you pulled out of your ass.
All racism , and all sexism, is wrong. Regardless of who is the victim. So, if you expect others to defend and protect you from being called a cracker, or being targeted or bullied for being white, you need to make alliances by opening your mind to the culture, experiences, and along with that, the suffering of other groups, instead of retreating and becoming insular and dismissive of the plight of minorities groups, especially women, who frankly really do have it rough. Sexual assault is a very real, and very horrible thing, and we'd be remiss to ignore the fact that outside of prison, it is an issue that primarily women have to deal with. Period.
Just give up dude. This is their method of argument. Take what you say, distort it into something like, "So it's more serious when women are raped than men", or "So I guess sexism/racism is only okay when it's against white males", even though you never said or implied this, and put the words in your mouth. It's a disingenuous psychological device designed for god only knows what, maybe to ignore or mitigate internal privilege. Or perhaps to just annoy and troll the **** out of us.
edit: Welp, I double posted. Guess the banhammer is a'comin down on meh.
He's literary saying it's not as serious issue as long as it's happening to a smaller group, and saying the smaller group are males. Idk how I can twist his words into something into what he's literary saying.
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But, it's not my perception of the art. It's the what the artist trying to depict. If this was interpretive art you would have a point. But it's not. So the reality of the art isn't up for discussion. It's a fight with context, not w/o.
Moral of the story white males are evil and have never and are incapable of being treated differently, mistreated or sexualized, or sexually assaulted of be a different race or gender. Chippendales isn't a thing, domestic violence against men has never been reported and no one is ever used a racist slur against white people like "cracker".
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
My point is not (and was not at any point) that individual cases are less serious when men victims. My point is that, when taken as a whole, sexual violence against men is much less of a problem, because there are so many fewer victims. That something terrible that affects an order of magnitude or so more people than something else terrible is a more serious issue is simply a fact, though you seem intent on turning it into me saying that raping men is fine or something along those lines that was never said or intended.
This is the point. The issue with gender roles is that they hurt both genders in different ways. You're pushing the crap you have to put up with (which must be really, really annoying) onto the wrong people here. It is the very same system that oppresses women that also oppresses men. It just happens in different ways. The entire paradigm just causes suffering for both of the genders. So for you to take your experience of physical, soldier training, and use it as an excuse to dismiss the injustices dealt out to women, is the in fact this very same system misdirecting your anger away from it, and onto the other group of victims of this whole sordid affair. Because from your perspective, they don't have to work as hard as you, physically, and you are expected as a man to be stronger than them, or else your manhood is at stake. But your anger at this admitted bullcrap is placed onto the women, who didn't set these standards either, and probably don't like that they are automatically considered inferior very much, either.
Regardless, I appreciate your service and wish only the very best for you. Just something to think about.
:headbang:
Stop attributing these notions to me. Stop trying to imply that I am saying this. I am not. I never said this. Seriously. Now I have reached my limit. If you have to resort to just constantly making words up to put in my mouth, than you have no place in a rational discussion. Go live in your fantasy bubble where I'm out to get you and other white males, and you can just say whatever you want and fill it in for what I'm saying. I'm sick of it. Ignored, with a vengeance.
edit: less infraction bait, more ignore list
That has always been my main point of contention. The problem is Sexism isn't occuring here because you believe it is. It you know has to actually occur, not because you take something out of context and claim you know more about it's intended message the the artist who drew the piece. I'm not being dismissive of the plight of minorities at all. I'm being dismissive of you tell other people what they said and ment. The piece in question clearly has not intent to promote sexual assault against women. Pretty much the opposite of what happened with the banned playmat a few much backs. Which was you know actually sexist.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Quote me. Show me where I said this then. I said, and I quote, "domestic violence never happens against men, All white males are evil,etc. etc.?" No. I never said any of that.
Matter of fact, I said a number of times that gender roles hurt BOTH genders. You can quote me on that.
The fact that you are willing to read whatever you want in a persons words, and not back it up with quotations says a lot about you, to be honest.
The number, if even that, is the only difference, that's where it ends.
It's not my manhood at stake, those tests are to keep our jobs, and I am not blaming any female. You wanted an example of widespread sexism against males. This is the standard, military wide.
Sexism isn't ok in any facet, and just like rape, it shouldn't be measured one against the other. If you're going to fight sexism fine, but don't belittle the parts of it you consider to be less of an issue. Even more so when you don't understand the full scope of what you're talking about. You think sexism against males is going to crop up and out at you like there's sexism against females, it happens differently to us, we have different stereotypes. Throughout my public school years, I also experienced several accounts of sexism whenever I had revealed that I was bi, instant pariah I was, but all the females that came out couldn't have been more popular around school. Sexism against males doesn't see any less daylight than when it happens to females.
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And frankly, I've heard complaints, the exact same as yours, coming from women in the military, so I really don't know what the say on the matter. It's just a convoluted mess, as is the entire issue of sexism.
So yea. I didn't actually say any of those things in that quote. Never said white males were evil, or any of it. I pointed out the veil that privilege can bring, and how it can cloud ones judgment, and this is, in turn , interpreted as such as a vicious attack on white men? Again, says more about you and him that it does about anyone else. Keep tilting at windmills, boys.
Which just confirms that at this point, people are just making up whatever they wanna hear in order to portray others as a strawman. A good sign that this debate has turned into nothing more than a simple argument.
While not verbatim. It is what you said. White males have never been see bold paragraph. Keep digging that hole though. I'm done here.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
This:
Made it seem like sexism against males wasn't such an issue to be dealt with in comparison, in your opinion.
EDIT: Commons also points out more of you distancing and belittling male sexism.
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Except... when they are? Given the choice between saving 1 people and saving 10 I think most people would pick the 10- something bad is a bigger problem for society when it happens to more people. There are plenty of other examples that illustrate the point, though again I must stress that am not saying that what happens less often is less morally repugnant, simply that, well, it doesn't have as great a negative effect when aggregated.
As horrible as sexism and racism are in real life, warping harmless incidents like this to further your beliefs only adds to the problem. The only way this art can be sexist is if you want it to be, despite all context to the contrary.
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My first thought is to depict Garruk standing behind liliana, with both of his hands fisted together and he just clubbed Lili in the back of the head and she is flying towards the viewer, sort of as a mirror to Triumph of Cruelty with the way they are standing.
This art would not be as epic as the current one, but it would make a passable replacement.
The problem is that as we know, Garruk didn't win the fight. The artwork was intended to portray a moment that Garruk was winning, not that Garruk has won. By portraying Garruk clubbing Liliana and Liliana being flinged off shows instead that Garruk was won and probably knocked out/killed Liliana, which makes the favour text and Triumph of Cruelty illogical.
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Then something like what was suggested earlier, her being pinned to a tree.
Scene: Liliana is pinned to a tree by her throat, being held with her feet 3 or 4 feet off the ground (cause Garruk is freaking huge) and Garruk is about to pulp her head with his spiky wrist. She is still holding a ball of flame/whatever and looks royally pissed.
Edit: Actually, this would be an awesome art for the card IMO, i should get some alters done of this
If he held her upward rather than down, it would suddenly be a lot less sexual?
You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
The Winner is Judge | 7
This Winner is Also Judge | 6
Club Flamingo | Lots
I think it's kind of hard to rape someone when you are holding them slightly above your head.
Also, this removes the 'looming over a helpless woman' aspect of the current art, so it will be harder to find this art offensive.
Well, yeah. Of course. The reason the picture is reminiscent of sexual assault for some viewers is almost all down to the pose. Changing it to a pose that removes that connotation fixes that problem.
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For the record, I personally have no issues with this art (well, apart from Liliana's ridiculously skimpy outfit for wandering around a swamp in, but that's more of a personal pet peeve with costume designs for women in fantasy generally). Specifically, I don't personally see the uncomfortable connotations that some people are seeing in it. The key, for me, is that Liliana's expression and body language strongly communicate a sense of "aggressive combatant" rather than "struggling victim" that makes it hard for me to see the scene in any but the intended light. But that's my impression, and I understand that reasonable people can have differing ones.
You could argue that people are being over-sensitive, but you know what? This is the kind of thing people are allowed to be sensitive about, if anything is. Bottom line, because of an unfortunate accident of pose in the scene, for a noticeable fraction of players the artwork is reminiscent of sexual assault, and that connotation is very uncomfortable for many, even though they understand it wasn't intentional.
That's a valid response, and those of us who don't see it should still be understanding that this is something people may legitimately be very sensitive to. If Wizards is going to be extra careful in the future to avoid these kinds of unintended visual suggestions, that's nothing but good. It benefits some number of players, costs the rest of us nothing, and costs Wizards only a little more time spent composing certain scenes. There really isn't a downside to that.
That isn't how Title IX works, I can't file a complaint/lawsuit because the school was following the rules by not having a men's lacrosse team. My high school was 6A football champions and had a lot of money put into the football team to the point that the school wasn't allowed to have any of the following: Lacrosse, Volleyball, Water Polo and the only reason I was allowed to play on the Tennis team was because it was co-ed. It has to be one of the most anti-male laws ever signed into existence.
Murder might seem to be a harsh word to use, but in the same way, so is rape. Neither is actually happening, but one evokes a huge response and the other is really taken as a given in a fantasy card game.
That's not to say that I don't find images of rape (or implied rape) more offensive than those images of murder, I just really don't know why.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Because it is easier to justify intentional murder (possible vigilante) than intentional rape. Because of the mantra that "death before dishonour".
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