How many changes would be made to the photo before a reasonable person would no longer consider it as indicative or "reminding" of rape?
Some people would say "none"
Others would say "once he takes the hand off"
Others would say "if she was still on her feet"
The picture has several small choices the artist made that add to the conclusion of sexual assault.
The easiest change would having her in a more vertical angle, or even reverse the positions of the other triumph art.
Im certian you could even find people who would consider a man and woman standing peacefully in a room to be considere a "depiction/reminiscent of rape". Rare, but still probably out there. So where do we draw the line? How vigilante should we remain to avoid "triggering" or "reminding". What is "reasonable accomadation"?
Seperately but additionaly, If I were talking about an episode of Law and Order with a rape victim, then should I not be talking about it out of fear that I might "trigger" someone?
Rape and sexual violence are one and the same. If a man is being violent with a woman, make sure there is nothing sexual/sexy about it, and this problem will not recur.
Law and Order usually deals with sexual assault, so a rape victim with ptsd wouldn't want to talk about it or watch the series at all...
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How could they present art in which the brutish Garruk "wins" or "dominates" Lilliana in physical hand-to-hand combat that would be acceptable? Any image you can think of using could be interpreted as rape/domestic violence/etc. So I guess the solution is liliana has to always win and look like the more powerful of the two or the result is sexist, disempowering and demeaning.
This is so true. And the first time I state my real opinion on this in this thread. So sad right now noone answers my questions, though.
The picture has several small choices the artist made that add to the conclusion of sexual assault.
The easiest change would having her in a more vertical angle, or even reverse the positions of the other triumph art.
Rape and sexual violence are one and the same. If a man is being violent with a woman, make sure there is nothing sexual/sexy about it, and this problem will not recur. Law and Order usually deals with sexual assault, so a rape victim with ptsd wouldn't want to talk about it or watch the series at all..
Yes true, but... I wouldn't know unless I talked to her about it and even then she may just quitly suffer the flashback. How am I to know? Should would just stop talking about TV shows like Law and Order or statues (like the rape of whatever-that-famous-godess-is that is so often shown in art history classes) to avoid "trigger".
What is "reasonable accomidation"? How far should one go to avoid said "triggering"? So far as to not show an important peice of art history in a class about art history?
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He could sick some wolves or other beasts on her, to mirror him being overwhelmed by her summoned zombies.
He could charge at her with his axe, because it's his signature weapon.
But that wouldn't be physical hand to hand combat, would it?
Edit: you mean his pack of wolves gang-raping her? Unacceptable. You can't do it. Even his axe is a man hitting a woman with a weapon. How many women suffer beatings like that daily?
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
But that story isn't in the picture. It's not in the flavor text. So as an image, it's depicting a man and a woman in a compromising pose that more closely reflects intent to rape more than any other act.
The story is in the picture, it depicts a conflict between a male and a female with the female currently in a position that looks like the male has the upper hand. And the story is in the flavor text
"Rid me of this curse witch, or die with me"
-Garruk Wildspeaker
In other words, you've cursed me, fix me now or I'm going to kill you before your curse kills me.
The flavor text doesn't say
"Time to unleash the beast!"
-Garruk Wildspeaker
Which would totally imply something else, but thankfully it doesn't.
I thought Magic players were supposed to be known for their imaginations. The fact that you can't think of any way for Garruk to defeat Liliana without forcing himself between her legs and choking her flat on her back is pretty troubling.
This is so true. And the first time I state my real opinion on this in this thread. So sad right now noone answers my questions, though.
Well, let's look at something like the Justice League or Young Justice, where superheroes and supervillians are duking it out...
When you have Superboy just won a fight against Cheshire, or any of the other female villians, you don't have him towering over her, choking her. Nor do you have an image that shows him with his knee between her legs and forcing her legs apart. At best, you might have shown him punching her and having knocked her through a wall. Or even caused something to collapse on her and pin her. But he's not close, nor even standing above her.
There's ways to show a man winning an actual fight against a woman that doesn't involve her submission. Heck, he's a beast mage and a force of nature... Have him toss a tree at her and show her getting knocked off her feet.
Hypothetically, If my little brother was run over and killed by a school bus do I have the right to ask for the censorship and removal of school buses from media because it reminds me of a horrible event that had happened to me? Is every depiction of a schoolbus from then on alluding to the horrible death my brother suffered at the ends of a yellow diesel powered menace? No.
Things remind people of things, just because the things that remind them of things (but don't depict them) exist doesn't mean that they are allowed to demand the censorship of the reminders.
I don't believe a single person has asked for the art to be removed, recalled, or changed. Censorship is not even part of the conversation here.
But you know what, we can work with your analogy. So yes, school buses make you upset because they trigger feelings in you that are unpleasant. However, for lots of other people (everyone else?) they only have happy or neutral feelings when they seem them.
Given these negative feelings/memories, you do your best to avoid seeing school buses, but one day you're walking down the street and you see one. It makes you sad. Real sad, maybe you even tear up a bit (maybe not), but passers-by on the street can see you're sad. They start telling you to stop being sad, because school buses are awesome. They take kids to school where they learn and make friends. There's no way school buses could ever make someone unhappy or be sad.
Does that seem like a fair way for these strangers to treat you? They don't know you. They don't know what happened in your life. The only thing that matters to them in this scenario is that you're not reacting they way they want you to, and it might even be making them uncomfortable.
Do you understand why this might be a problem for society to act that way? Now try applying that situation to this argument.
Well, let's look at something like the Justice League or Young Justice, where superheroes and supervillians are duking it out...
When you have Superboy just won a fight against Cheshire, or any of the other female villians, you don't have him towering over her, choking her. Nor do you have an image that shows him with his knee between her legs and forcing her legs apart. At best, you might have shown him punching her and having knocked her through a wall. Or even caused something to collapse on her and pin her. But he's not close, nor even standing above her.
There's ways to show a man winning an actual fight against a woman that doesn't involve her submission. Heck, he's a beast mage and a force of nature... Have him toss a tree at her and show her getting knocked off her feet.
Conversely, wonder woman's weakness was being tied up. Comics are a bad example. I'll give you a link in a sec.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
I thought Magic players were supposed to be known for their imaginations. The fact that you can't think of any way for Garruk to defeat Liliana without forcing himself between her legs and choking her flat on her back is pretty troubling.
The problem is, him using anything other than brute force seems very unlikely story-wise. The whole reason why he doesn't use his beast magic is because the curse corrupts whatever he summons so it becomes some hideous monstrosity (once again if you read the comic and informed yourself people would know this). It's why he physically busts down Jace's door to interrogate him, and why he does the same to her.
Conversely, wonder woman's weakness was being tied up.
As far as I'm aware, that particular weakness was dropped from the current continuity, with good reason.
Yes, I'm aware of some pretty terrible stereotypes that exist as well. I'm trying to use some current standards that have been shown to be acceptable to audiences without evoking a particularly negative response.
The image doesn't DEPICT rape. It alludes to it. People see it and are REMINDED of it. People do not like to be reminded of that.
This statement is accurate and I completely agree. There's no depiction of rape. At worst there's insinuation which makes people uncomfortable.
Many people get offended by violence on television or in films, but that doesn't make the footage "wrong" or less artistic, simply disagreeable.
I've personally gotten uncomfortable whenever I've watched a movie which had a scene that alludes to rape or includes an actual rape scene (ie: Kids, Bully, Visitor Q, etc), but I still try to enjoy the story while keeping in mind that I'm watching actors not actual events (even though the story may be based on a true story or referencing real life crimes), and I still judge the movies' productions objectively without taking into account my own personal moral biases regarding the story, characters, or themes involved.
And that is what is wrong with the image.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Nothing is inherently right, wrong, good, or evil. It's all a matter of individual perspective and a society or culture's generalized acceptance of what is considered morally acceptable, tolerable, or unacceptable (which is still always subject to change from one social era or demographic to another).
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
The problem is, him using anything other than brute force seems very unlikely story-wise. The whole reason why he doesn't use his beast magic is because the curse corrupts whatever he summons so it becomes some hideous monstrosity (once again if you read the comic and informed yourself people would know this). It's why he physically busts down Jace's door to interrogate him, and why he does the same to her.
No one is saying he can't be depicted beating her using brute force. It's in the accumulation of details, namely:
1. He's choking her
2. He's holding her flat on her back
3. He's forcing himself in between her legs
Lose any one of these three things and the art would probably be okay. There are literally endless numbers of poses that could have been used that wouldn't imply sexual assault and still fit the storyline of Garruk and Liliana. All we're saying is that WotC should be more aware of this kind of thing in the future.
Personally, I'd like to see Garruk holding Liliana over his head and about to bodyslam her into the mouth of a wolf.
As far as I'm aware, that particular weakness was dropped from the current continuity, with good reason.
Yes, I'm aware of some pretty terrible stereotypes that exist as well. I'm trying to use some current standards that have been shown to be acceptable to audiences without evoking a particularly negative response.
@tuss
I responded to you in kind, and treated you as an adult. I'm sorry you didn't read the hand to hand part of my question. I'm also sorry your examples could me misconstrued as the things I mentioned.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
Edit: you mean his pack of wolves gang-raping her? Unacceptable. You can't do it. Even his axe is a man hitting a woman with a weapon. How many women suffer beatings like that daily?
Recent statistical polls show that 9 out of 10 people actually enjoy gang rape.
P.S: In case you haven't figured it out, that was a joke.
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
Nothing is inherently right, wrong, good, or evil. It's all a matter of individual perspective and a society or culture's generalized acceptance of what is considered morally acceptable, tolerable, or unacceptable (which is still always subject to change from one social era or demographic to another).
Sorry, "that is what people find to be wrong with the image" would be more accurate.
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Given these negative feelings/memories, you do your best to avoid seeing school buses, but one day you're walking down the street and you see one. It makes you sad. Real sad, maybe you even tear up a bit (maybe not), but passers-by on the street can see you're sad. They start telling you to stop being sad, because school buses are awesome. They take kids to school where they learn and make friends. There's no way school buses could ever make someone unhappy or be sad.
Does that seem like a fair way for these strangers to treat you? They don't know you. They don't know what happened in your life. The only thing that matters to them in this scenario is that you're not reacting they way they want you to, and it might even be making them uncomfortable.
Do you understand why this might be a problem for society to act that way? Now try applying that situation to this argument.
If that were the case I'd politely ask for them to respect my feelings, the problem is that I would be in the minority. I'd have to come to grips with the fact that schoolbuses remind me of what happened to my little brother and go to therapy or grief counselling or whatever I would require to be comfortable around schoolbuses again.
What you're conveniently neglecting to acknowledge is that she was threatening him with a fireball in hand... a friggin' FIREBALL for pete's sakes! Therefore, logic dictates that the only reason he grabbed her by the throat in self defense was because she was threatening and prepared to burn off his excessive and highly flammable arm, neck, and back hair!
One could very well argue that it's suggestive of Superman about to sexually assault someone. It's a pretty questionable image, and one that someone might say it's comparable to this situation. If I remember correctly, there's similar images with Batman getting into bed with a young Robin, which could just as easily be misconstrued. And, of course, your reminder about Wonder Woman's weakness of being tied up. How about Thor losing his power when he loses his hammer? After all, to quote from a popular sing-a-long blog, the hammer is his *****...
Again, that's the point; there are plenty of images like that which are questionable and evoke certain visceral feelings of rape or sexual assault. Whether that's against women, young children, etc. These are things that shouldn't ever be taken lightly. And I'm not suggesting otherwise.
But that wasn't the point of my comment, that DC comics was some paradigm. My point was only that they have been able to show a man winning a fight against a woman, without it taking on any aspects of sexual assault. Which is what I believe the OP wanted.
No one is saying he can't be depicted beating her using brute force. It's in the accumulation of details, namely:
1. He's choking her
2. He's holding her flat on her back
3. He's forcing himself in between her legs
Lose any one of these three things and the art would probably be okay. There are literally endless numbers of poses that could have been used that wouldn't imply sexual assault and still fit the storyline of Garruk and Liliana. All we're saying is that WotC should be more aware of this kind of thing in the future.
Personally, I'd like to see Garruk holding Liliana over his head and about to bodyslam her into the mouth of a wolf.
1. Effective method of restraining your opponent
2. Effective method of using your weight and gravity as a weapon
3. Effective method for preventing your quarry from making any quick leg movements
This is a fight, and just because the techniques used may be similar or identical to ones that lead to rape does not make them inherently evil. Proposing that the artist should not have used that particular pose would be proposing censorship.
There is no way that an adult can think "sick a pack of wolves on them" and immediately and earnestly ask if it has to do with sexual assault (unless of course there is a history of sexualised animal violence but frankly there has been not too much of that in this particular game). The same goes for seriously considering "daily axe beatings" as something that happens to women.
The only way to interpret what you posted is as either a mockery, as something that only a person with no understanding at all of the issue could say or (most charitably) as a massive brain fart.
Depends on the picture and the person looking at it. Also the context that everyone wants to ignore. Also, how many women have firballs forming in their hands as they're trying to fight off the other guy with magic hands that they've cursed with a magic veil? About as many that get daily axe beatings, right? So context matters, or it doesn't?
It's like Ben slapping Barbara in night of the living dead. Could definitely be interpreted as domestic violence and upset people who have suffered it. But given the situation(being surrounded by zombies as she's having a mental breakdown), is it?
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
That's a huge leap. Nobody in this thread seems to be calling for censorship, only for others to realize why the art could be considered offensive or disempowering.
That is what will happen though. Censorship is incoming now. We will not see men and women fighting due to the uproar this image is doing. The people calling sexism in the end will provide evidence that there should be a segregation of equality between men and women. It is not something that I want to see as strong women are a very iconic part of Magics history, but unfortunately the fights will no longer be depicted on the cards and only in the books. Goodjob people at censoring MTG.
That is what will happen though. Censorship is incoming now. We will not see men and women fighting due to the uproar this image is doing. The people calling sexism in the end will provide evidence that there should be a segregation of equality between men and women. It is not something that I want to see as strong women are a very iconic part of Magics history, but unfortunately the fights will no longer be depicted on the cards and only in the books. Goodjob people at censoring MTG.
Unfortunately they cancelled the novel line:(. So if that does happen we won't even have that.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
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The picture has several small choices the artist made that add to the conclusion of sexual assault.
The easiest change would having her in a more vertical angle, or even reverse the positions of the other triumph art.
Rape and sexual violence are one and the same. If a man is being violent with a woman, make sure there is nothing sexual/sexy about it, and this problem will not recur.
Law and Order usually deals with sexual assault, so a rape victim with ptsd wouldn't want to talk about it or watch the series at all...
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This is so true. And the first time I state my real opinion on this in this thread. So sad right now noone answers my questions, though.
What is "reasonable accomidation"? How far should one go to avoid said "triggering"? So far as to not show an important peice of art history in a class about art history?
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
But that wouldn't be physical hand to hand combat, would it?
Edit: you mean his pack of wolves gang-raping her? Unacceptable. You can't do it. Even his axe is a man hitting a woman with a weapon. How many women suffer beatings like that daily?
The story is in the picture, it depicts a conflict between a male and a female with the female currently in a position that looks like the male has the upper hand. And the story is in the flavor text
In other words, you've cursed me, fix me now or I'm going to kill you before your curse kills me.
The flavor text doesn't say
Which would totally imply something else, but thankfully it doesn't.
Thankfully, Garruk is NOT a snakemage, but a beastmage. Oh god, why...
Well, let's look at something like the Justice League or Young Justice, where superheroes and supervillians are duking it out...
When you have Superboy just won a fight against Cheshire, or any of the other female villians, you don't have him towering over her, choking her. Nor do you have an image that shows him with his knee between her legs and forcing her legs apart. At best, you might have shown him punching her and having knocked her through a wall. Or even caused something to collapse on her and pin her. But he's not close, nor even standing above her.
There's ways to show a man winning an actual fight against a woman that doesn't involve her submission. Heck, he's a beast mage and a force of nature... Have him toss a tree at her and show her getting knocked off her feet.
The fact that he's clearly about to kill her... meh, that's an obvious non-issue.
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
I don't believe a single person has asked for the art to be removed, recalled, or changed. Censorship is not even part of the conversation here.
But you know what, we can work with your analogy. So yes, school buses make you upset because they trigger feelings in you that are unpleasant. However, for lots of other people (everyone else?) they only have happy or neutral feelings when they seem them.
Given these negative feelings/memories, you do your best to avoid seeing school buses, but one day you're walking down the street and you see one. It makes you sad. Real sad, maybe you even tear up a bit (maybe not), but passers-by on the street can see you're sad. They start telling you to stop being sad, because school buses are awesome. They take kids to school where they learn and make friends. There's no way school buses could ever make someone unhappy or be sad.
Does that seem like a fair way for these strangers to treat you? They don't know you. They don't know what happened in your life. The only thing that matters to them in this scenario is that you're not reacting they way they want you to, and it might even be making them uncomfortable.
Do you understand why this might be a problem for society to act that way? Now try applying that situation to this argument.
Conversely, wonder woman's weakness was being tied up. Comics are a bad example. I'll give you a link in a sec.
The problem is, him using anything other than brute force seems very unlikely story-wise. The whole reason why he doesn't use his beast magic is because the curse corrupts whatever he summons so it becomes some hideous monstrosity (once again if you read the comic and informed yourself people would know this). It's why he physically busts down Jace's door to interrogate him, and why he does the same to her.
As far as I'm aware, that particular weakness was dropped from the current continuity, with good reason.
Yes, I'm aware of some pretty terrible stereotypes that exist as well. I'm trying to use some current standards that have been shown to be acceptable to audiences without evoking a particularly negative response.
This statement is accurate and I completely agree. There's no depiction of rape. At worst there's insinuation which makes people uncomfortable.
Many people get offended by violence on television or in films, but that doesn't make the footage "wrong" or less artistic, simply disagreeable.
I've personally gotten uncomfortable whenever I've watched a movie which had a scene that alludes to rape or includes an actual rape scene (ie: Kids, Bully, Visitor Q, etc), but I still try to enjoy the story while keeping in mind that I'm watching actors not actual events (even though the story may be based on a true story or referencing real life crimes), and I still judge the movies' productions objectively without taking into account my own personal moral biases regarding the story, characters, or themes involved.
Nothing is inherently right, wrong, good, or evil. It's all a matter of individual perspective and a society or culture's generalized acceptance of what is considered morally acceptable, tolerable, or unacceptable (which is still always subject to change from one social era or demographic to another).
No one is saying he can't be depicted beating her using brute force. It's in the accumulation of details, namely:
1. He's choking her
2. He's holding her flat on her back
3. He's forcing himself in between her legs
Lose any one of these three things and the art would probably be okay. There are literally endless numbers of poses that could have been used that wouldn't imply sexual assault and still fit the storyline of Garruk and Liliana. All we're saying is that WotC should be more aware of this kind of thing in the future.
Personally, I'd like to see Garruk holding Liliana over his head and about to bodyslam her into the mouth of a wolf.
And this? What's that look like?
http://www.frogsoda.com/captions/actioncomic
@tuss
I responded to you in kind, and treated you as an adult. I'm sorry you didn't read the hand to hand part of my question. I'm also sorry your examples could me misconstrued as the things I mentioned.
Recent statistical polls show that 9 out of 10 people actually enjoy gang rape.
P.S: In case you haven't figured it out, that was a joke.
Spam Infraction
Sorry, "that is what people find to be wrong with the image" would be more accurate.
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If that were the case I'd politely ask for them to respect my feelings, the problem is that I would be in the minority. I'd have to come to grips with the fact that schoolbuses remind me of what happened to my little brother and go to therapy or grief counselling or whatever I would require to be comfortable around schoolbuses again.
The fireball wasn't coming from her legs, was it?
One could very well argue that it's suggestive of Superman about to sexually assault someone. It's a pretty questionable image, and one that someone might say it's comparable to this situation. If I remember correctly, there's similar images with Batman getting into bed with a young Robin, which could just as easily be misconstrued. And, of course, your reminder about Wonder Woman's weakness of being tied up. How about Thor losing his power when he loses his hammer? After all, to quote from a popular sing-a-long blog, the hammer is his *****...
Again, that's the point; there are plenty of images like that which are questionable and evoke certain visceral feelings of rape or sexual assault. Whether that's against women, young children, etc. These are things that shouldn't ever be taken lightly. And I'm not suggesting otherwise.
But that wasn't the point of my comment, that DC comics was some paradigm. My point was only that they have been able to show a man winning a fight against a woman, without it taking on any aspects of sexual assault. Which is what I believe the OP wanted.
1. Effective method of restraining your opponent
2. Effective method of using your weight and gravity as a weapon
3. Effective method for preventing your quarry from making any quick leg movements
This is a fight, and just because the techniques used may be similar or identical to ones that lead to rape does not make them inherently evil. Proposing that the artist should not have used that particular pose would be proposing censorship.
Depends on the picture and the person looking at it. Also the context that everyone wants to ignore. Also, how many women have firballs forming in their hands as they're trying to fight off the other guy with magic hands that they've cursed with a magic veil? About as many that get daily axe beatings, right? So context matters, or it doesn't?
It's like Ben slapping Barbara in night of the living dead. Could definitely be interpreted as domestic violence and upset people who have suffered it. But given the situation(being surrounded by zombies as she's having a mental breakdown), is it?
That is what will happen though. Censorship is incoming now. We will not see men and women fighting due to the uproar this image is doing. The people calling sexism in the end will provide evidence that there should be a segregation of equality between men and women. It is not something that I want to see as strong women are a very iconic part of Magics history, but unfortunately the fights will no longer be depicted on the cards and only in the books. Goodjob people at censoring MTG.
Unfortunately they cancelled the novel line:(. So if that does happen we won't even have that.