Rarity of cards showing up for Limited is DEFINITELY part of the reason for cards that usually suck being at higher rarity levels.
That said, it amazes me how many people don't understand the fundamental economics of the situation. If all Mythic cards were "flavorful" but never chase cards, then there's a LOT less reason to buy packs. The couple of big chase Mythics in a set allow Wizards to keep to the recent trend of smaller set sizes while still selling enough product to keep the business (and therefor the game) healthy. The secondary market doesn't directly impact Wizards, as they don't sell singles. But whenever a set has a Jace, the Mind Sculptor in it, people who don't want to spend $100 on a single card will "Play the Jace Lottery" more often the packs fly off the shelves. Wizards makes a profit and Magic continues to be a healthy game. When a set's best card is a regular rare that is much easier to come across, there is less excitement (and less need) for opening packs. It's simple, and it's a GOOD thing. I think we ALL prefer the smaller set sizes, and Mythics (with a couple of chase Mythics) allow it.
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"They've done studies you know. 60% of the time, it works every time."
I personally HATE utility mythics. Even the ones with a nostalgic reason (Mox Opal) still rankle. Lotus Cobra made me rage back when it was first revealed, and I still dislike it.
But expensive mythics aren't always utility mythics; the most expensive mythic isn't utility, for example.
Mythics shouldn't be constructed tournament playable, they should be the most Timmy and flavorful cards around and often bombs in draft. Jace, cobra and swords are a poor example of what feels mythical whereas cards like furyborn hellkite and bloodlord of vaasgoth feel perfectly mythic to me.
Jace feels very mythic. He's a Planeswalker (Mythic) with four abilities (OMG so cool!!!). It's just unfortunate that they decided to push the envelope with him.
That said, it amazes me how many people don't understand the fundamental economics of the situation. If all Mythic cards were "flavorful" but never chase cards, then there's a LOT less reason to buy packs. The couple of big chase Mythics in a set allow Wizards to keep to the recent trend of smaller set sizes while still selling enough product to keep the business (and therefor the game) healthy. The secondary market doesn't directly impact Wizards, as they don't sell singles. But whenever a set has a Jace, the Mind Sculptor in it, people who don't want to spend $100 on a single card will "Play the Jace Lottery" more often the packs fly off the shelves. Wizards makes a profit and Magic continues to be a healthy game. When a set's best card is a regular rare that is much easier to come across, there is less excitement (and less need) for opening packs. It's simple, and it's a GOOD thing. I think we ALL prefer the smaller set sizes, and Mythics (with a couple of chase Mythics) allow it.
Zendikar was the best selling set of all time. Zendikar's highest priced mythic was Lotus Cobra, which was lower than some of Scars of Mirrodin's, but that didn't stop the set from selling like hotcakes.
I'm not saying the chase mythic effect doesn't happen, but there's plenty of other ways for a set to sell.
What they need to do is abandon the Mythic rarity and make all rares feel like Mythics, just like some years ago (no power creep, just more good mechanics and good flavor), instead of printing rare Limited bombs that are complete trash elsewhere. It makes Limited a lottery for who gets the most bombtastic finisher, and that's like spitting in the face of those who paid money to draft and didn't open anything playable.
Take Odissey block draft, for example. It builds around commons and uncommons, while nearly all the rares have very different uses that are usually better suited for Constructed, while none of these were bombs nor powercreeped cards. That's the expansion I want to see.
Zendikar was the best selling set of all time. Zendikar's highest priced mythic was Lotus Cobra, which was lower than some of Scars of Mirrodin's, but that didn't stop the set from selling like hotcakes.
I'm not saying the chase mythic effect doesn't happen, but there's plenty of other ways for a set to sell.
Zendikar is definitely the "exception to the rule" in this case. Zen had the fetch lands, which were anticipated and waited for for a LONG time, and the full-art basics as well. The priceless treasuers, though only in the first print run, definitely helped. But again, since the beginning of Mythics, this is really more the exception to the rule.
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"They've done studies you know. 60% of the time, it works every time."
Let's just put it this way...do you really want every single mythic rare to cost $20+...and keep in mind that if every mythic rare is tournament playable, then probably 25+ cards in your deck are mythics (and add in a few rare lands with will probably be $5-$10 each as well)...do you really want tournament magic to come to that?
Entirely bad? I believe the word you're looking for is "not utility cards".
Which they've kept up with mostly well, though I believe that Lotus Cobra should have never been mythic. However, since Zendikar, Wizards has gotten better at choosing what to make mythic and what not to. However, in Zendikar block, they were pretty bad with them, the cobra and Vengevine being the biggest offenders in terms of feeling more like utility cards that you wanted to run four-ofs in order to make decks work.
On the subject at hand, however, some mythic rares are going to be bad cards, but as long as they're particularly flavorful or do something interesting enough, then they'll get the slot, and not be bumped down to rare. The only mythic rare in Innistrad that i feel is lackluster is Balefire Dragon, not for flavor purposes (personally, I actually like it in the setting), but because it feels not much different from every other dragon ever.
This was silly from the beginning, because the biggest draw to Planeswalkers competitively IS their utility.
Would've been best to just be upfront about it and make all the best cards mythics, but without being able to siphon off value from slots wasted on things like Dragonmaster Outcast their value would plummet.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I wish every mythic was awful casual chaff but alas wizards likes to print absurdly expensive tournament staples at mythic like jace, the mind sculptor and baneslayer angel prior to getting reprinted was pushing 60.
Vengevine was the definition of a non mythic. I don't see how that card is mythic in any way, shape, or form. The fact that it was 40 dollars was probably the reason I didn't play vengevival in legacy prior to the banning of survival; I didn't want to blow 160 on a playset of a meh card without survival that had that really ugly looking orange expansion symbol.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Mythic rares aren't actually based on how good they are, my friend explains. They're actually based around how complex the card is, and what it's capabilities are. Grimgrin? A bad player won't use him very well, they won't stack triggers and buff him to insane. Grimoire? You build around it and have to make it really different. You can't just throw it in any old deck and make it work.
For the most part, mythics are either planeswalkers, or you have to play to them. Which isn't bad. Survivalvine or Vengevival was one of the best decks to hit legacy in a long time, it made things incredibly fast and competitive. Vengevine was fantastic, if you paired it with the right card.
From what I've seen, Mythic rarity is based on the uniqueness and usability of the card.
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Reparations ---> The best flavor text in Magic ever and forever, courtesy of Mark Rosewater.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Heh, yeah, I remember wotc saying that mythics were interesting and flavourful cards, and not tournament staples, and there was no need to worry about insane card prices to get a good tournament deck.
Yeah..... right...
As has been patiently explained many times before (but I do think it's worth explaining again), Wizards said that Mythics would be flavorful, interesting and not *exclusively* a list of the set's most powerful cards and tournament staples, but they never once said a Mythic *couldn't* be a powerful card or tournament staple.
Only ubiquitous (i.e., deck-type-agnostic) Fetchland-style cards would stay off the Mythic list. They said nothing beyond that.
What is the point of printing sub-par Mythics? I understand there's a quota to fill but surely those cards can be downgraded to regular Rares and leave the Mythics to be "worthy" of such a rarity. I'm sure we can all think of a few Mythics that could quite easily have been printed as regular rares.
In my mind, Mythic rares should be Planeswalkers, Legendary Creatures and cards that have a significant ability or impact that contributes to the game. Mythics shouldn't just be an "I win" card of course, but I'm sure we can all agree that there are a fair few Mythics (and a LOT of rares) that probably don't deserve such a status.
I'm not so ignorant that I would judge cards out of context and on face value (every card has it's use and place in a deck), I'm just questioning how Mythics are valued by Wizards and the community.
Do you think that all the current Mythics deserve "Mythic" status or should Wizards re-evaluate their generosity when deciding what is rewarded with such a stature?
Do you think Wizards have gotten better with their last couple of blocks?
You aren't thinking long term. 1 year from now when a set appears or a combo appears that utilizes that card heavily then most players can have another mythic to complain about that's over priced and unattainable by the masses. It's the way of the game
As has been patiently explained many times before (but I do think it's worth explaining again), Wizards said that Mythics would be flavorful, interesting and not *exclusively* a list of the set's most powerful cards and tournament staples, but they never once said a Mythic *couldn't* be a powerful card or tournament staple.
Only ubiquitous (i.e., deck-type-agnostic) Fetchland-style cards would stay off the Mythic list. They said nothing beyond that.
Bears repeating again... in fact here an actual quote:
We want mythic rares to feel special. We want them to be cards that seem like they'd be rarer than normal rares. At the same time, we are sensitive to the needs of constructed formats. We don't want players to feel compelled to get four of a particular mythic rare so we are making a conscious choice to keep the more utility or ”every deck of this color needs four of these” kinds of cards out of mythic rare (this is why I stated things like dual lands are off limits for mythic rare).
And really, those Mythics that people have been running four of these days still fit into these catagories. You really DON'T need 4 Liliana's in a deck...
Bears repeating again... in fact here an actual quote:
We want mythic rares to feel special. We want them to be cards that seem like they'd be rarer than normal rares. At the same time, we are sensitive to the needs of constructed formats. We don't want players to feel compelled to get four of a particular mythic rare so we are making a conscious choice to keep the more utility or ”every deck of this color needs four of these” kinds of cards out of mythic rare (this is why I stated things like dual lands are off limits for mythic rare).
And really, those Mythics that people have been running four of these days still fit into these catagories. You really DON'T need 4 Liliana's in a deck...
And you definitely don't need four Lilianas in every deck running Black.
This point was made earlier in the thread, but you need less desirable cards to sell the packs. One can argue that there are a lot of reasons why a magic pack will sell, but main reason is that it is a gamble. By spreading out the good/valuable cards, the whole shebang creates a variable ratio reinforcement schedule--which humans (and just about every other animal) respond to with great vigor. The trick with it is that people will continue to buy even if on a "losing" streak as the next "win" might be around the corner.
The addition of mythic allowed them to shrink set size without reducing the rarity of the chase cards. This was desirable to them in that, after having tried expanding the cardpool (larger TS, coldsnap, and the 4 block format of Lorwyn), they found that standard players seemed to dislike it (at least I remember hearing this). Also, and this is just speculation, I imagine fewer cards is just easier (cheaper) to design.
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Sig by Dark Night Cavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios!
This point was made earlier in the thread, but you need less desirable cards to sell the packs. One can argue that there are a lot of reasons why a magic pack will sell, but main reason is that it is a gamble. By spreading out the good/valuable cards, the whole shebang creates a variable ratio reinforcement schedule--which humans (and just about every other animal) respond to with great vigor. The trick with it is that people will continue to buy even if on a "losing" streak as the next "win" might be around the corner.
The addition of mythic allowed them to shrink set size without reducing the rarity of the chase cards. This was desirable to them in that, after having tried expanding the cardpool (larger TS, coldsnap, and the 4 block format of Lorwyn), they found that standard players seemed to dislike it (at least I remember hearing this). Also, and this is just speculation, I imagine fewer cards is just easier (cheaper) to design.
Fewer cards isn't cheaper to design. Probably 99% of cards for a set end up getting trashed or shelved for future use, for various reasons. Designing a 500 card set would be nothing. A smaller set does save on art commissioning, though.
Fewer cards isn't cheaper to design. Probably 99% of cards for a set end up getting trashed or shelved for future use, for various reasons. Designing a 500 card set would be nothing. A smaller set does save on art commissioning, though.
Having 500 cards doesn't just make a set though. The more cards, the more balance and playtesting needs to happen. It's not too wild to imagine people get paid more the longer they work on stuff like that
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You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
The Winner is Judge | 7
This Winner is Also Judge | 6
Club Flamingo | Lots
That said, it amazes me how many people don't understand the fundamental economics of the situation. If all Mythic cards were "flavorful" but never chase cards, then there's a LOT less reason to buy packs. The couple of big chase Mythics in a set allow Wizards to keep to the recent trend of smaller set sizes while still selling enough product to keep the business (and therefor the game) healthy. The secondary market doesn't directly impact Wizards, as they don't sell singles. But whenever a set has a Jace, the Mind Sculptor in it, people who don't want to spend $100 on a single card will "Play the Jace Lottery" more often the packs fly off the shelves. Wizards makes a profit and Magic continues to be a healthy game. When a set's best card is a regular rare that is much easier to come across, there is less excitement (and less need) for opening packs. It's simple, and it's a GOOD thing. I think we ALL prefer the smaller set sizes, and Mythics (with a couple of chase Mythics) allow it.
"That doesn't make sense."
But expensive mythics aren't always utility mythics; the most expensive mythic isn't utility, for example.
Jace feels very mythic. He's a Planeswalker (Mythic) with four abilities (OMG so cool!!!). It's just unfortunate that they decided to push the envelope with him.
It's Yawgmoth's Will; that's pretty darn mythic-feeling.
Zendikar was the best selling set of all time. Zendikar's highest priced mythic was Lotus Cobra, which was lower than some of Scars of Mirrodin's, but that didn't stop the set from selling like hotcakes.
I'm not saying the chase mythic effect doesn't happen, but there's plenty of other ways for a set to sell.
Thanks to Syndarion of Aeternal Studios for my sig!
Take Odissey block draft, for example. It builds around commons and uncommons, while nearly all the rares have very different uses that are usually better suited for Constructed, while none of these were bombs nor powercreeped cards. That's the expansion I want to see.
Zendikar is definitely the "exception to the rule" in this case. Zen had the fetch lands, which were anticipated and waited for for a LONG time, and the full-art basics as well. The priceless treasuers, though only in the first print run, definitely helped. But again, since the beginning of Mythics, this is really more the exception to the rule.
"That doesn't make sense."
This was silly from the beginning, because the biggest draw to Planeswalkers competitively IS their utility.
Would've been best to just be upfront about it and make all the best cards mythics, but without being able to siphon off value from slots wasted on things like Dragonmaster Outcast their value would plummet.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
Vengevine was the definition of a non mythic. I don't see how that card is mythic in any way, shape, or form. The fact that it was 40 dollars was probably the reason I didn't play vengevival in legacy prior to the banning of survival; I didn't want to blow 160 on a playset of a meh card without survival that had that really ugly looking orange expansion symbol.
Currently Playing:
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For the most part, mythics are either planeswalkers, or you have to play to them. Which isn't bad. Survivalvine or Vengevival was one of the best decks to hit legacy in a long time, it made things incredibly fast and competitive. Vengevine was fantastic, if you paired it with the right card.
From what I've seen, Mythic rarity is based on the uniqueness and usability of the card.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
As has been patiently explained many times before (but I do think it's worth explaining again), Wizards said that Mythics would be flavorful, interesting and not *exclusively* a list of the set's most powerful cards and tournament staples, but they never once said a Mythic *couldn't* be a powerful card or tournament staple.
Only ubiquitous (i.e., deck-type-agnostic) Fetchland-style cards would stay off the Mythic list. They said nothing beyond that.
You aren't thinking long term. 1 year from now when a set appears or a combo appears that utilizes that card heavily then most players can have another mythic to complain about that's over priced and unattainable by the masses. It's the way of the game
Bears repeating again... in fact here an actual quote:
We want mythic rares to feel special. We want them to be cards that seem like they'd be rarer than normal rares. At the same time, we are sensitive to the needs of constructed formats. We don't want players to feel compelled to get four of a particular mythic rare so we are making a conscious choice to keep the more utility or ”every deck of this color needs four of these” kinds of cards out of mythic rare (this is why I stated things like dual lands are off limits for mythic rare).
And really, those Mythics that people have been running four of these days still fit into these catagories. You really DON'T need 4 Liliana's in a deck...
And you definitely don't need four Lilianas in every deck running Black.
I can't tell if this is supposed to be sarcasm.
Edit: Rereading your other posts, I guess it isn't. Disregard this post!
The addition of mythic allowed them to shrink set size without reducing the rarity of the chase cards. This was desirable to them in that, after having tried expanding the cardpool (larger TS, coldsnap, and the 4 block format of Lorwyn), they found that standard players seemed to dislike it (at least I remember hearing this). Also, and this is just speculation, I imagine fewer cards is just easier (cheaper) to design.
Fewer cards isn't cheaper to design. Probably 99% of cards for a set end up getting trashed or shelved for future use, for various reasons. Designing a 500 card set would be nothing. A smaller set does save on art commissioning, though.
Having 500 cards doesn't just make a set though. The more cards, the more balance and playtesting needs to happen. It's not too wild to imagine people get paid more the longer they work on stuff like that