I think many, many people don't know the difference between fun as a reason, and fun as an excuse. Everyone likes to have fun in the game, I think...well, I hope that's why everyone plays it. What I can't stand is when fun is being used as an excuse to make bad decisions, bad plays, and bad judgment.
If you don't care, then this need not apply to you.
Everyone's definition of fun is different, you may find collecting the cards fun, I may find EDH fun, while the person next to me may find competitive play fun. Who are we to tell others what's fun or not?
It doesn't matter if you play casual or not, stop implying that your way of playing is the only way to have fun when a person that's either clearly better than you, or is more competitive than you, says something to you, whether it's actually right or wrong. I can pick out at least 10 posts in under 5 minutes where this has happened, and it's very annoying.
Using bad cards when there are clearly better choices, then calling the choice "fun", is no excuse to use that card. Same goes for making that really bad play when you know that there's a better one.
Now I know that money is an issue for some card choices, obviously, and anyone that knows me knows that I wouldn't even consider suggesting a Jace 2 if it's not within your price range, but that doesn't mean you go ahead and choose Obsessive Search over Jace Beleren in the last 3 spots of your deck, when you obviously know which one is better, and the price of either isn't a problem at that range (then ultimately, saying it's "fun", when you don't have another reason.)
That might be a bad example, but you get my point.
Your definition of fun isn't the end all, be all definition, so stop using it as a way to gain leverage in your argument when someone comes around with a different opinion than you, and is actually able to back it up.
Casual play, mainly EDH, is extremely fun to me, so is high level competitive play, and deck building. Since when am I not allowed to make my decks as best as possible, and since when is doing such a thing not fun?
Why is it so hard to accept the fact that there are other ways of having fun? Why can't you realize that competitive players DO have fun?
I love the different ideas that people can come up with, and I absolutely enjoy trying new things, but there's only one thing in the entire game that I try to stay away from, that's people who use fun as an excuse for everything. This isn't everyone, and I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a tad bothered by it.
Apologies for the long post, it's just something I noticed happening a lot, and I felt that it's preventing the opinions of competitive and experienced players to be heard by less experienced (I don't like using these terms, they're too "label" ish) and non competitive players.
I may not be able to reply to this for some time, unfortunately, but I hope the point was understandable.
Anthony Lowry, Article Writer for Manashift.
Your #1 source for New York City Magic!
Twitter: @Aufam
Complaining about card prices accomplishes nothing. Read some Medina articles, learn to trade better, don’t act like the only way to do ANYTHING in this game is to price out decks and buy every single you ever need.
Using bad cards when there are clearly better choices, then calling the choice "fun", is no excuse to use that card. Same goes for making that really bad play when you know that there's a better one.
I had a hard time following your post, as you continued to jump back and forth. However, this paragraph I disagree with completely. You stated that having fun can mean anything from building a homebrew deck and playing casually, to playing the best, most efficient deck possible in a competitive environment.
So why is it that a person can't build a deck and use a card that may not be the "better one" and still say that they're having fun with the deck? If the deck has at least 60 cards and follows the rules of the game (casual house rules aside), then why can't that be considered as "fun"? Heck, I built a draft deck one time at an FNM that consisted of all of the cards that I drafted with. I didn't win by any means, but I did have fun.
What is it for one person to tell another person that they can't have "fun" with the way they're playing the game? Now, granted, you touched on that in your post, but you seemed to jump back and forth, and it seemed like more of a rant than a consistent viewpoint.
I played a dude at FNM with a level-up deck. It was purely awful but boy did he ever love the level up mechanic. You should have seen the look on his face when he was talking about how he almost had me with his dudes. I just smiled and was like "Yeah man, that was pretty close. Whew."
You could have given the guy a tier 1 deck with gideons and jace's and he would have still played his level up deck. Nobody was gonna ruin his fun.
Because competitve and control players generally only care about having fun THEMSELVES. While others care about BOTH players having fun.
One is selfish, the other is selfless.
When both players have fun, MTG grows. When one person has fun at the expense of the other, that is the death of MTG.
Yet it's ok to generalize those people? isn't that a little hypocritical? You don't know that these players only care about fun for themselves. I'm sure you wouldn't want someone to generalize you in that manner. I think that's highly disrespectful.
I had a hard time following your post, as you continued to jump back and forth. However, this paragraph I disagree with completely. You stated that having fun can mean anything from building a homebrew deck and playing casually, to playing the best, most efficient deck possible in a competitive environment.
So why is it that a person can't build a deck and use a card that may not be the "better one" and still say that they're having fun with the deck? If the deck has at least 60 cards and follows the rules of the game (casual house rules aside), then why can't that be considered as "fun"? Heck, I built a draft deck one time at an FNM that consisted of all of the cards that I drafted with. I didn't win by any means, but I did have fun.
What is it for one person to tell another person that they can't have "fun" with the way they're playing the game? Now, granted, you touched on that in your post, but you seemed to jump back and forth, and it seemed like more of a rant than a consistent viewpoint.
You're absolutely right on both parts, I sort of jumped back and forth out of frustration, and it's not exactly "wrong" to use one card over another.
Even if, in lyme's example, you brewed up a level up deck (which I think is awesome), if you had to choose between a Kargan over a umm...Zulaport Enforcer (this may be a really bad example), most of us would choose the Kargan, and even if that person chose the Zulaport, saying "it's fun" isn't exactly a reason, compared to, "I don't play much red", or something.
Anthony Lowry, Article Writer for Manashift.
Your #1 source for New York City Magic!
Twitter: @Aufam
Complaining about card prices accomplishes nothing. Read some Medina articles, learn to trade better, don’t act like the only way to do ANYTHING in this game is to price out decks and buy every single you ever need.
TC: I agreed with you up until you told people to stop playing the game the way they want to. A little hypocritical. I agree with the overall sentiment though.
Second poster: I know several people who like playing against control, myself included. I believe that many players choose to play a deck, rather than play an opponent. They would rather just throw cool spells at each other's faces than have any sort of interaction that limits their own actions.
I agree that prison or heavy control decks have little place in casual environments, but in a competitive setting, I welcome them.
Yes, different people have different ideas of fun. So people will naturally have different ideas from you. People aren't saying that you don't like fun, but some people enjoy playing badly. When I know I'm going to lose, I enjoy playing bad card and making a fool of myself and lose, than being all angry because I can't escape certain combos that I can't get rid of. And you know what? Sometimes they enjoy it too.
Because competitve and control players generally only care about having fun THEMSELVES. While others care about BOTH players having fun.
One is selfish, the other is selfless.
When both players have fun, MTG grows. When one person has fun at the expense of the other, that is the death of MTG.
Not sure I understand the connection (necessarily) between competitive and control, for one thing. It's not as though there are no casual control decks.
For another thing, the only thing I can be responsible for is having fun myself. I know that for me playing against control is very enjoyable, as opposed to playing against "bloodbraid elf herp derp.dec" all the time. Control matchups have a pretty good level of interaction, so I'm not sure where the whole "control is selfish" thing comes from.
I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I'm not really interested in making a deck to simply entertain my opponent, casual or competitive.
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Quote from ButteBlues18 »
OMG you stupid ****ing n00b... stfu and stop playing mtg because youre t3h suck!oneone
TC: I agreed with you up until you told people to stop playing the game the way they want to. A little hypocritical. I agree with the overall sentiment though.
I didn't mean for it to seem like I'm telling people not to play the way they want to play, I probably should have worded it differently.
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Anthony Lowry, Article Writer for Manashift.
Your #1 source for New York City Magic!
Twitter: @Aufam
Complaining about card prices accomplishes nothing. Read some Medina articles, learn to trade better, don’t act like the only way to do ANYTHING in this game is to price out decks and buy every single you ever need.
You say you're having fun making competitive decks and that people should just accept the way you play ... and then you trash people for just wanting to play their own way.
And you're wrong, there's still a huge price difference between a bad common and a $5 rare.
One thing I dislike is the notion that "competitive players only have fun when they win".
I believe I was a competitive player for most of my MtG life, and this wasn't true at all for me. As a competitive player, I liked competition. I liked balanced matches where both players had good chances to win.
If I won a match because my opponent clearly got mana screwed or mana flooded, I did not had fun.
If I lost a match, but the match itself was pretty good and could have gone both ways, I most likely had fun.
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Quote from parinoid »
I rolled 5 D6's and got 3 fours. They must have changed the odds of getting a 4!
And you're wrong, there's still a huge price difference between a bad common and a $5 rare.
No, there really isn't. If you can't afford either, you probably shouldn't be spending your resources (time or money) towards cards. This is too continual of a hobby to expect $5 to last very long.
Why do you go out of your way to say that people may find different things fun, and then condemn people for making bad card choices when they're just trying to have fun?
Not sure I understand the connection (necessarily) between competitive and control, for one thing. It's not as though there are no casual control decks.
For another thing, the only thing I can be responsible for is having fun myself. I know that for me playing against control is very enjoyable, as opposed to playing against "bloodbraid elf herp derp.dec" all the time. Control matchups have a pretty good level of interaction, so I'm not sure where the whole "control is selfish" thing comes from.
I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I'm not really interested in making a deck to simply entertain my opponent, casual or competitive.
If you were to check into his post history you would see that he's been on an irrational one-man crusade against things he doesn't like. These are largely competitive and control players (who are apparently killing Magic ) and control decks. He never offers any sort of rational response, he justs rants and makes overly-generalized and obviously-wrong claims about things he doesn't like.
Even if, in lyme's example, you brewed up a level up deck (which I think is awesome), if you had to choose between a Kargan over a umm...Zulaport Enforcer (this may be a really bad example), most of us would choose the Kargan, and even if that person chose the Zulaport, saying "it's fun" isn't exactly a reason, compared to, "I don't play much red", or something.
You answered this question for yourself in your first post: people have different definitions of fun. You must remember that their is more to a card than how tournament players rate it's power level.
Suppose that a player prefered the artwork or flavor of Obsessive Search over Jace Beleren. That is a perfectly valid reason to play it. Yes it's less powerful. But sometimes power isn't what makes players happy.
Take for example the 'theme decks' many new (and old) players like to build. In a Mono Green Elf standard legal deck, running Garruk Wildspeaker is probably a good idea. But if that player doesn't like having a non-elf card, he shouldn't play it. If it kills the fun of his deck, it is a bad card.
This post = total fail.
I was going to be the first person to respond, but I really thought I was missunderstanding or missreading the post. Now that everyone else is saying what I planned to say then I guess I read it correctly.
Also a bad idea is to roast people for their opinion of the appropriateness of the post in question when your entire defense is based on your opinion of the appropriateness of the post.
I disagree with your notions that it is somehow "wrong" or "stupid" to play Magic for pure "fun".
If I want to build a deck with Craw Wurms, by God, I will. If I want to build a deck with Melissa Benson's Shivan Dragons, I will. If I want to play with Force of Nature, I will. If I want to play a deck featuring cards that are clearly outclassed by more recent cards, I will. If I want to build a Djinn themed deck, I will.
Why would I play any of those cards (as well as countless others) when I have cards that are clearly better than them? Because those are all cards I have very fond memories of from my early days of Magic.
I see people all the time, competitive Magic players with really good (net) decks challenge kids and such to non-tourney games. The kid pulls out a pretty casual deck built with their limited resources and they are soon destroyed (without any hope of winning) by their opponent. In my opinion, those types of games somehow kill the fun in the game.
My solution? I always try to have some very casual (and fun) decks built in case I run across some kid who is just looking for a game of Magic. Oftentimes I will beat them and oftentimes my cards are better than theirs and the deck is better constructed than theirs, but playing these types of decks at least gives them a better chance to win and they also get to do the things that their deck was designed to do. After the game I give them a few suggestions about card choices, what to trade and keep (to their benefit), and game play choices. That approach (rather than a cut throat mentality) is healthier than if I just pulled out my best deck and destroyed them.
I've even gone so far as to ask my local gameshop owner and tourney organizer if I can bring two decks to play at FNM, one a competitive build and another very casual build to be pulled out in case I get paired up against a kid or someone new to Magic that will still allow them to be "in the game" and have fun. He said no, unfortunately that's a rules violation. In my opinion, offering hints, tips, suggestions, praise, and constructive criticism towards them would be much more well received than if I just killed them.
Casual vs. competitive is an argument that nobody is going to "win." We get threads like this all the time and they always go in circles and generally lead to multiple Warnings/Infractions. Thread closed.
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"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."
I think many, many people don't know the difference between fun as a reason, and fun as an excuse. Everyone likes to have fun in the game, I think...well, I hope that's why everyone plays it. What I can't stand is when fun is being used as an excuse to make bad decisions, bad plays, and bad judgment.
If you don't care, then this need not apply to you.
Everyone's definition of fun is different, you may find collecting the cards fun, I may find EDH fun, while the person next to me may find competitive play fun. Who are we to tell others what's fun or not?
It doesn't matter if you play casual or not, stop implying that your way of playing is the only way to have fun when a person that's either clearly better than you, or is more competitive than you, says something to you, whether it's actually right or wrong. I can pick out at least 10 posts in under 5 minutes where this has happened, and it's very annoying.
Using bad cards when there are clearly better choices, then calling the choice "fun", is no excuse to use that card. Same goes for making that really bad play when you know that there's a better one.
Now I know that money is an issue for some card choices, obviously, and anyone that knows me knows that I wouldn't even consider suggesting a Jace 2 if it's not within your price range, but that doesn't mean you go ahead and choose Obsessive Search over Jace Beleren in the last 3 spots of your deck, when you obviously know which one is better, and the price of either isn't a problem at that range (then ultimately, saying it's "fun", when you don't have another reason.)
That might be a bad example, but you get my point.
Your definition of fun isn't the end all, be all definition, so stop using it as a way to gain leverage in your argument when someone comes around with a different opinion than you, and is actually able to back it up.
Casual play, mainly EDH, is extremely fun to me, so is high level competitive play, and deck building. Since when am I not allowed to make my decks as best as possible, and since when is doing such a thing not fun?
Who are you to say that your version of fun is the only way of having fun?
Why is it so hard to accept the fact that there are other ways of having fun? Why can't you realize that competitive players DO have fun?
I love the different ideas that people can come up with, and I absolutely enjoy trying new things, but there's only one thing in the entire game that I try to stay away from, that's people who use fun as an excuse for everything. This isn't everyone, and I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a tad bothered by it.
Apologies for the long post, it's just something I noticed happening a lot, and I felt that it's preventing the opinions of competitive and experienced players to be heard by less experienced (I don't like using these terms, they're too "label" ish) and non competitive players.
I may not be able to reply to this for some time, unfortunately, but I hope the point was understandable.
Anthony Lowry, Article Writer for Manashift.
Your #1 source for New York City Magic!
Twitter: @Aufam
Because competitve and control players generally only care about having fun THEMSELVES. While others care about BOTH players having fun.
One is selfish, the other is selfless.
When both players have fun, MTG grows. When one person has fun at the expense of the other, that is the death of MTG.
I had a hard time following your post, as you continued to jump back and forth. However, this paragraph I disagree with completely. You stated that having fun can mean anything from building a homebrew deck and playing casually, to playing the best, most efficient deck possible in a competitive environment.
So why is it that a person can't build a deck and use a card that may not be the "better one" and still say that they're having fun with the deck? If the deck has at least 60 cards and follows the rules of the game (casual house rules aside), then why can't that be considered as "fun"? Heck, I built a draft deck one time at an FNM that consisted of all of the cards that I drafted with. I didn't win by any means, but I did have fun.
What is it for one person to tell another person that they can't have "fun" with the way they're playing the game? Now, granted, you touched on that in your post, but you seemed to jump back and forth, and it seemed like more of a rant than a consistent viewpoint.
You could have given the guy a tier 1 deck with gideons and jace's and he would have still played his level up deck. Nobody was gonna ruin his fun.
Yet it's ok to generalize those people? isn't that a little hypocritical? You don't know that these players only care about fun for themselves. I'm sure you wouldn't want someone to generalize you in that manner. I think that's highly disrespectful.
You're absolutely right on both parts, I sort of jumped back and forth out of frustration, and it's not exactly "wrong" to use one card over another.
Even if, in lyme's example, you brewed up a level up deck (which I think is awesome), if you had to choose between a Kargan over a umm...Zulaport Enforcer (this may be a really bad example), most of us would choose the Kargan, and even if that person chose the Zulaport, saying "it's fun" isn't exactly a reason, compared to, "I don't play much red", or something.
I'm really sorry if my points aren't clear.
Anthony Lowry, Article Writer for Manashift.
Your #1 source for New York City Magic!
Twitter: @Aufam
Second poster: I know several people who like playing against control, myself included. I believe that many players choose to play a deck, rather than play an opponent. They would rather just throw cool spells at each other's faces than have any sort of interaction that limits their own actions.
I agree that prison or heavy control decks have little place in casual environments, but in a competitive setting, I welcome them.
Not sure I understand the connection (necessarily) between competitive and control, for one thing. It's not as though there are no casual control decks.
For another thing, the only thing I can be responsible for is having fun myself. I know that for me playing against control is very enjoyable, as opposed to playing against "bloodbraid elf herp derp.dec" all the time. Control matchups have a pretty good level of interaction, so I'm not sure where the whole "control is selfish" thing comes from.
I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I'm not really interested in making a deck to simply entertain my opponent, casual or competitive.
I didn't mean for it to seem like I'm telling people not to play the way they want to play, I probably should have worded it differently.
Anthony Lowry, Article Writer for Manashift.
Your #1 source for New York City Magic!
Twitter: @Aufam
You say you're having fun making competitive decks and that people should just accept the way you play ... and then you trash people for just wanting to play their own way.
And you're wrong, there's still a huge price difference between a bad common and a $5 rare.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=353661
I believe I was a competitive player for most of my MtG life, and this wasn't true at all for me. As a competitive player, I liked competition. I liked balanced matches where both players had good chances to win.
If I won a match because my opponent clearly got mana screwed or mana flooded, I did not had fun.
If I lost a match, but the match itself was pretty good and could have gone both ways, I most likely had fun.
No, there really isn't. If you can't afford either, you probably shouldn't be spending your resources (time or money) towards cards. This is too continual of a hobby to expect $5 to last very long.
If you were to check into his post history you would see that he's been on an irrational one-man crusade against things he doesn't like. These are largely competitive and control players (who are apparently killing Magic ) and control decks. He never offers any sort of rational response, he justs rants and makes overly-generalized and obviously-wrong claims about things he doesn't like.
You answered this question for yourself in your first post: people have different definitions of fun. You must remember that their is more to a card than how tournament players rate it's power level.
Suppose that a player prefered the artwork or flavor of Obsessive Search over Jace Beleren. That is a perfectly valid reason to play it. Yes it's less powerful. But sometimes power isn't what makes players happy.
Take for example the 'theme decks' many new (and old) players like to build. In a Mono Green Elf standard legal deck, running Garruk Wildspeaker is probably a good idea. But if that player doesn't like having a non-elf card, he shouldn't play it. If it kills the fun of his deck, it is a bad card.
I was going to be the first person to respond, but I really thought I was missunderstanding or missreading the post. Now that everyone else is saying what I planned to say then I guess I read it correctly.
I disagree with your notions that it is somehow "wrong" or "stupid" to play Magic for pure "fun".
If I want to build a deck with Craw Wurms, by God, I will. If I want to build a deck with Melissa Benson's Shivan Dragons, I will. If I want to play with Force of Nature, I will. If I want to play a deck featuring cards that are clearly outclassed by more recent cards, I will. If I want to build a Djinn themed deck, I will.
Why would I play any of those cards (as well as countless others) when I have cards that are clearly better than them? Because those are all cards I have very fond memories of from my early days of Magic.
I see people all the time, competitive Magic players with really good (net) decks challenge kids and such to non-tourney games. The kid pulls out a pretty casual deck built with their limited resources and they are soon destroyed (without any hope of winning) by their opponent. In my opinion, those types of games somehow kill the fun in the game.
My solution? I always try to have some very casual (and fun) decks built in case I run across some kid who is just looking for a game of Magic. Oftentimes I will beat them and oftentimes my cards are better than theirs and the deck is better constructed than theirs, but playing these types of decks at least gives them a better chance to win and they also get to do the things that their deck was designed to do. After the game I give them a few suggestions about card choices, what to trade and keep (to their benefit), and game play choices. That approach (rather than a cut throat mentality) is healthier than if I just pulled out my best deck and destroyed them.
I've even gone so far as to ask my local gameshop owner and tourney organizer if I can bring two decks to play at FNM, one a competitive build and another very casual build to be pulled out in case I get paired up against a kid or someone new to Magic that will still allow them to be "in the game" and have fun. He said no, unfortunately that's a rules violation. In my opinion, offering hints, tips, suggestions, praise, and constructive criticism towards them would be much more well received than if I just killed them.
Current decks:
Legacy: Zoo, Aggro Elves, The Gate, White Weenie, Red Deck Wins, and Merfolk. Currently building Solidarity.
Casual: Warp World Revolution and Old School Red-Green.
Standard: Ob-Nixilis Wave and Elves.