So firstly, I would like to apologize for necroing this thread that was almost 2 months old. I thought it would be an acceptable amount of time betweeen posts, but I was mistaken.
I would like to reintroduce the question posed in that thread with a different (perhaps more nubtastic) perspective.
The question is simple:
What happens? (And what happens when the Fiend Hunter Dies?)
The answer.....is complicated.
My current understanding is the following:
1)Mikaeus is moved to the exiled zone.
2)The counters on Mikaeus cease to exist due to rule 121.2.
3)Mikeaus becomes a 0/0 creature.
4)Mikaeus is moved to the owner's graveyard as a state based action due to rule 704.5.
Rules
121.2. Counters on an object are not retained if that object moves from one zone to another. The counters are not "removed"; they simply cease to exist. See rule 400.7.
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
Someone said that rule 704.5f only applies to creatures on the battlefield, but I was unable to find a rule that specified that. As far as I can tell, that rule applies to a creature in any zone.
If I am correct, It would mean that, essentially, Mikaeus would never stay exiled since he would be moved to the graveyard from the exiled zone. I personally think that would be pretty damn cool. If anyone can find a rule to the contrary, please correct me xD.
I wanted to continue on with a hypothetical, because it was interesting to me: Suppose Mikaeus is a 0/1. What happens in this scenario when he is bounced by our friend the Fiend Hunter?
I went ahead and looked at rule 400.7(the one that was referenced by 121.2):
400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:
One of the exceptions is:
400.7c If an ability of a permanent requires information about choices made as that permanent was cast as a spell, including what mana was spent to cast that spell, it uses information about the spell that became that permanent as it resolved.
Since Mikaeus has an ability that requires information about what mana was spent to cast it, this exception means that Mikaeus can retain memory of X when it moves zones.
This is where stuff gets interesting, because the following is also true about Mikaeus:
107.3f If a card in any zone other than the stack has an {X} in its mana cost, the value of {X} is treated as 0, even if the value of X is defined somewhere within its text.
At this point, Mikaeus' X is retained in memory, but treated as 0 unless the card Mikaeus is on the stack. This specific instance of the card Mikaeus can never reenter the stack(as far as I can tell), so for the rest of its existence, Mikaeus' X will be treated as 0. In that case, when the Fiend Hunter dies, Mikaeus would reenter the battlefield with 0 counters.
TLDR:
Mikaeus -> Exiled -> Graveyard.
IF Mikaeus was a 0/1, Mikaeus -> Exiled -> (Fiend Hunter dies) -> Mikaeus -> Battlefield with 0 counters.
So I'm looking for feedback, particularly on my interpretation of rule 704.5f. Please provide the rules I can look at, with any accompanying explanations, otherwise I won't believe you
109.2. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes a card type or subtype, but doesn’t include the word “card,” “spell,” “source,” or “scheme,” it means a permanent of that card type or subtype on the battlefield.
EDIT: Huh. But this doesn't say the rules work this way. Hm...
EDIT2: In any case, 704.5 doesn't mean anything unless a rule like 109.2 clarifies what it means, because "a creature" is as semantically void as "a red" or "a small".
As far as I can tell, that derivation about Mikaeus re-entering the battlefield is sound. The conclusion is true. I honestly never went through it like that myself (and I go through a lot like this).
If anything, you may have found some pieces that tie up a bit less elegantly than they could. They still work, though.
He gets exiled. He stays exiled until Fiend Hunter dies, at which point he returns to the battlefield with no counters. He is then immediately put into your graveyard.
"Creature" applies only on the battlefield; in any other zone they are creature cards. I'll see if I can find that in CR, but see Ostracize vs Doom BLade for example.
108.2a In the text of spells or abilities, the term "card" is used only to refer to a card that's not on the battlefield or on the stack, such as a creature card in a player's hand. For more information, see section 4, "Zones."
I'll explain very simply:
Fiend Hunter exiles Mikaeus. He remains exiled until the fiend dies. When the fiend dies, Mikaeus comes back as a 0/0 and dies. If he was a 0/1 he would be a 0/1. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=361756 same thread as yours lol
So firstly, I would like to apologize for necroing this thread that was almost 2 months old. I thought it would be an acceptable amount of time betweeen posts, but I was mistaken.
I would like to reintroduce the question posed in that thread with a different (perhaps more nubtastic) perspective.
The question is simple:
What happens? (And what happens when the Fiend Hunter Dies?)
The answer.....is complicated.
My current understanding is the following:
1)Mikaeus is moved to the exiled zone.
2)The counters on Mikaeus cease to exist due to rule 121.2.
3)Mikeaus becomes a 0/0 creature.
4)Mikaeus is moved to the owner's graveyard as a state based action due to rule 704.5.
Rules
Someone said that rule 704.5f only applies to creatures on the battlefield, but I was unable to find a rule that specified that. As far as I can tell, that rule applies to a creature in any zone.
If I am correct, It would mean that, essentially, Mikaeus would never stay exiled since he would be moved to the graveyard from the exiled zone. I personally think that would be pretty damn cool. If anyone can find a rule to the contrary, please correct me xD.
I wanted to continue on with a hypothetical, because it was interesting to me: Suppose Mikaeus is a 0/1. What happens in this scenario when he is bounced by our friend the Fiend Hunter?
I went ahead and looked at rule 400.7(the one that was referenced by 121.2):
One of the exceptions is:
Since Mikaeus has an ability that requires information about what mana was spent to cast it, this exception means that Mikaeus can retain memory of X when it moves zones.
This is where stuff gets interesting, because the following is also true about Mikaeus:
At this point, Mikaeus' X is retained in memory, but treated as 0 unless the card Mikaeus is on the stack. This specific instance of the card Mikaeus can never reenter the stack(as far as I can tell), so for the rest of its existence, Mikaeus' X will be treated as 0. In that case, when the Fiend Hunter dies, Mikaeus would reenter the battlefield with 0 counters.
TLDR:
Mikaeus -> Exiled -> Graveyard.
IF Mikaeus was a 0/1, Mikaeus -> Exiled -> (Fiend Hunter dies) -> Mikaeus -> Battlefield with 0 counters.
So I'm looking for feedback, particularly on my interpretation of rule 704.5f. Please provide the rules I can look at, with any accompanying explanations, otherwise I won't believe you
109.2. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes a card type or subtype, but doesn't include the word "card," "spell," "source," or "scheme," it means a permanent of that card type or subtype on the battlefield.
There is nothing you can find specifically referring to 704.5f because it's not specific to creatures. 704.5f states that a creature with 0 toughness is put into the graveyard:
-While in your hand, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While in the graveyard, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While exiled, Mikaeus is not a creature -While in a library, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While in the command zone, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While on the stack, Mikaeus is not a creature
-When in any of these zones, Mikaeus is a creature card, and a creature card is completely different from a creature and the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other except that while on the battlefield creature card is referred to as a creature
From rule 109.2, we can derive the following:
704.5f If a permanent on the battlefield with the type of creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
As far as I can tell, that derivation about Mikaeus re-entering the battlefield is sound. The conclusion is true.
No and no. The OP and you are sticking to the letter of the rule while ignoring the spirit of the rule. If you read "creature" as "creature card in any zone" throughout all rules, you'll reach some very odd conclusions. For one, the SBA would still apply after Mikaeus has been put into the graveyard (since by the logic being proposed here, it has no reason not to apply). Hence, the game loses itself in an infinite loop of continually moving Mikaeus from the graveyard to the graveyard.
Also, the SBA would surely have to apply in the hand, right? Or maybe the hand is exempt because it's a hidden zone. But the stack is a public zone, so if you cast Mikaeus, it'll be a 0/0 on the stack and promptly go to the graveyard. Oops.
I'll ping the rules manager about having "or rule" added to rule 109.2, but in the meantime, we should all agree to interpret the rules in a way that actually makes sense.
End of story.
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I would like to reintroduce the question posed in that thread with a different (perhaps more nubtastic) perspective.
The situation is simple:
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch is in play.
An opponent plays a Fiend Hunter targeting Mikaeus.
The question is simple:
What happens? (And what happens when the Fiend Hunter Dies?)
The answer.....is complicated.
My current understanding is the following:
1)Mikaeus is moved to the exiled zone.
2)The counters on Mikaeus cease to exist due to rule 121.2.
3)Mikeaus becomes a 0/0 creature.
4)Mikaeus is moved to the owner's graveyard as a state based action due to rule 704.5.
Rules
Someone said that rule 704.5f only applies to creatures on the battlefield, but I was unable to find a rule that specified that. As far as I can tell, that rule applies to a creature in any zone.
If I am correct, It would mean that, essentially, Mikaeus would never stay exiled since he would be moved to the graveyard from the exiled zone. I personally think that would be pretty damn cool. If anyone can find a rule to the contrary, please correct me xD.
I wanted to continue on with a hypothetical, because it was interesting to me: Suppose Mikaeus is a 0/1. What happens in this scenario when he is bounced by our friend the Fiend Hunter?
I went ahead and looked at rule 400.7(the one that was referenced by 121.2):
One of the exceptions is:
Since Mikaeus has an ability that requires information about what mana was spent to cast it, this exception means that Mikaeus can retain memory of X when it moves zones.
This is where stuff gets interesting, because the following is also true about Mikaeus:
At this point, Mikaeus' X is retained in memory, but treated as 0 unless the card Mikaeus is on the stack. This specific instance of the card Mikaeus can never reenter the stack(as far as I can tell), so for the rest of its existence, Mikaeus' X will be treated as 0. In that case, when the Fiend Hunter dies, Mikaeus would reenter the battlefield with 0 counters.
TLDR:
Mikaeus -> Exiled -> Graveyard.
IF Mikaeus was a 0/1, Mikaeus -> Exiled -> (Fiend Hunter dies) -> Mikaeus -> Battlefield with 0 counters.
So I'm looking for feedback, particularly on my interpretation of rule 704.5f. Please provide the rules I can look at, with any accompanying explanations, otherwise I won't believe you
EDIT: Huh. But this doesn't say the rules work this way. Hm...
EDIT2: In any case, 704.5 doesn't mean anything unless a rule like 109.2 clarifies what it means, because "a creature" is as semantically void as "a red" or "a small".
As far as I can tell, that derivation about Mikaeus re-entering the battlefield is sound. The conclusion is true. I honestly never went through it like that myself (and I go through a lot like this).
If anything, you may have found some pieces that tie up a bit less elegantly than they could. They still work, though.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
"Creature" applies only on the battlefield; in any other zone they are creature cards. I'll see if I can find that in CR, but see Ostracize vs Doom BLade for example.
108.2a In the text of spells or abilities, the term "card" is used only to refer to a card that's not on the battlefield or on the stack, such as a creature card in a player's hand. For more information, see section 4, "Zones."
Fiend Hunter exiles Mikaeus. He remains exiled until the fiend dies. When the fiend dies, Mikaeus comes back as a 0/0 and dies. If he was a 0/1 he would be a 0/1.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=361756 same thread as yours lol
There is nothing you can find specifically referring to 704.5f because it's not specific to creatures. 704.5f states that a creature with 0 toughness is put into the graveyard:
-While in your hand, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While in the graveyard, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While exiled, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While in a library, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While in the command zone, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While on the stack, Mikaeus is not a creature
-When in any of these zones, Mikaeus is a creature card, and a creature card is completely different from a creature and the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other except that while on the battlefield creature card is referred to as a creature
From rule 109.2, we can derive the following:
No and no. The OP and you are sticking to the letter of the rule while ignoring the spirit of the rule. If you read "creature" as "creature card in any zone" throughout all rules, you'll reach some very odd conclusions. For one, the SBA would still apply after Mikaeus has been put into the graveyard (since by the logic being proposed here, it has no reason not to apply). Hence, the game loses itself in an infinite loop of continually moving Mikaeus from the graveyard to the graveyard.
Also, the SBA would surely have to apply in the hand, right? Or maybe the hand is exempt because it's a hidden zone. But the stack is a public zone, so if you cast Mikaeus, it'll be a 0/0 on the stack and promptly go to the graveyard. Oops.
I'll ping the rules manager about having "or rule" added to rule 109.2, but in the meantime, we should all agree to interpret the rules in a way that actually makes sense.
End of story.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.