My opponent controls Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. I play Clone and the legend rule kicks in, killing both. Does my Clone get shuffled into my library?
I control Clone that is copying Blightsteel Colossus. I block my opponent's Blightsteel Colossus with my Clone copy of Blightsteel Colossus, killing both. Does my Clone get shuffled into my library?
Protection from colored spells. Emerkul cannot be the target of clone. As for clone getting shuffled, I don't believe so. It's not a creature, it's a sorcery.
1) Clone does not target.
2) None of the discussed cards are sorceries.
If I remember right, since Emmy triggers from the graveyard, your Clone won't be an Emrakul by the time it's in the bin, so it won't trigger. However, I -know- that a Clone-Steel Colossus of either flavor will be shuffled back in upon being sent to the graveyard, since it's a replacement effect that works while Clone is still Colossal.
Protection from colored spells. Emerkul cannot be the target of clone.
which is why it's fortunate that clone doesn't target the creature it is entering the battlefield as a copy of.
Regarding the original questions, the answers are in fact different.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn: The relevant ability is a triggered Because the ability is worded "into a graveyard from anywhere, ..." it triggers after it enters the graveyard, not when it leave the battlefield. So for the clone, by the time it actually enters the graveyard, it is no longer a copy of Emrakul, and does not trigger.
blightsteel colossus: This ability is a replacement effect. Thus, the card never actually makes it to the graveyard, it simply goes from where it was directly back into the library. So the cloned colossus would in fact get shuffled back into your library.
Is it even relevant that Clone doesn't target? For Emrakul's protection to apply, Clone would have to target it while it's a spell, and as far as I know creature spells don't ever do that.
If this were Cryptoplasm or if Clone read:
When Clone enters the battlefield, you may have it become a copy of target creature. (This effect lasts indefinitely.)
0/1
It would still be able to target Emrakul since that would be a triggered ability.
It's relevant if we're talking about killing Thrun, the Last Troll with Clone, but not Emrakul.
This answer doesn't sound correct in regards to Emrakul.
For the ability to trigger, Last Known Information would be used. Clone was an Emrakul when it left the field, therefore, it has the ability that shuffles your library into the deck. Would really like an L2 or higher to post on this one, though.
This answer doesn't sound correct in regards to Emrakul.
For the ability to trigger, Last Known Information would be used. Clone was an Emrakul when it left the field, therefore, it has the ability that shuffles your library into the deck. Would really like an L2 or higher to post on this one, though.
Incorrect. Last-known information is only used when the game needs to know something about an object that's gone, such as activating Prodigal Pyromancer, which is killed with the ability on the stack. Since the Pyromancer is gone, the game has to use LKI to see what it was like right before it died; did it have Infect? Wither? Lifelink? Deathtouch? What color was it [for protection and stuff]?
Emrakul's trigger triggers from the graveyard. By the time Clone gets there, it isn't an Emrakul anymore, it's a Clone, so it doesn't HAVE a trigger to go off.
603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially because the object with the ability may no longer be on the battlefield, may have moved to a hand or library, or may no longer be controlled by the appropriate player. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward.
Normally you check the game state after the event to determine of there are any triggered abilities. There are several exceptions, but Emrakul's ability isn't one of them. After the event of both cards being put into the graveyard, the Clone card is no longer a copy of Emrakul, so it doesn't trigger.
Here's the definition of "Leaves the battlefield" abilities, for good measure:
603.6c Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the game. These are written as, but aren’t limited to, “When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . .” or “Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . .” An ability that attempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zone that it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone “from anywhere” is never treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from the battlefield.
Note that Emmy's ability doesn't say anything about the battlefield.
This answer doesn't sound correct in regards to Emrakul.
For the ability to trigger, Last Known Information would be used. Clone was an Emrakul when it left the field, therefore, it has the ability that shuffles your library into the deck. Would really like an L2 or higher to post on this one, though.
The wording on Emrakul makes this not true. The main difference being that "Whenever x is put to a graveyard from anywhere..." versus "Whenever x is put into a graveyard from the battlefield. The word "Anywhere" in this case means it triggers from the Graveyard and thus, we don't need any Last Known Information. If Emrakul had a "Leaves the Battlefield" trigger, then we would look at the last known information to determine that indeed, Clone was an Emrakul and your graveyard should be shuffled in. However that is not the case, so it does not apply
As an aside, specifying that you want an L2 or higher really neuters the help you will receive on this forum. Being L2 does not necessarily mean that they know the rules better than anyone else. Plenty of L1s and even people who aren't judges know just as much, if not more than a lot of L2s. I know some people who aren't even rules advisors that know the rules better than some of the L2s I know. Hoodoo is a good resource on this forum as are plenty of other non - L2 judges and he is absolutely correct in this case
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I control Clone that is copying Blightsteel Colossus. I block my opponent's Blightsteel Colossus with my Clone copy of Blightsteel Colossus, killing both. Does my Clone get shuffled into my library?
Thanks.
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How Creatures Die
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
This is incorrect. Clone does not target. Emrakul is a valid choice for Clone.
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How Creatures Die
Targets | Triggered Abilities | Priority and the Stack | Older Articles
1) Clone does not target.
2) None of the discussed cards are sorceries.
If I remember right, since Emmy triggers from the graveyard, your Clone won't be an Emrakul by the time it's in the bin, so it won't trigger. However, I -know- that a Clone-Steel Colossus of either flavor will be shuffled back in upon being sent to the graveyard, since it's a replacement effect that works while Clone is still Colossal.
The latest Comprehensive Rules are also good, and can be found here.
which is why it's fortunate that clone doesn't target the creature it is entering the battlefield as a copy of.
Regarding the original questions, the answers are in fact different.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn: The relevant ability is a triggered Because the ability is worded "into a graveyard from anywhere, ..." it triggers after it enters the graveyard, not when it leave the battlefield. So for the clone, by the time it actually enters the graveyard, it is no longer a copy of Emrakul, and does not trigger.
blightsteel colossus: This ability is a replacement effect. Thus, the card never actually makes it to the graveyard, it simply goes from where it was directly back into the library. So the cloned colossus would in fact get shuffled back into your library.
edit: how many 'naths was that again?
If this were Cryptoplasm or if Clone read:
When Clone enters the battlefield, you may have it become a copy of target creature. (This effect lasts indefinitely.)
0/1
It would still be able to target Emrakul since that would be a triggered ability.
It's relevant if we're talking about killing Thrun, the Last Troll with Clone, but not Emrakul.
For the ability to trigger, Last Known Information would be used. Clone was an Emrakul when it left the field, therefore, it has the ability that shuffles your library into the deck. Would really like an L2 or higher to post on this one, though.
EDH Decks:
RBG Kresh, the Bloodbraided RBG
GW Rhys, the Redeemed GW
Legacy:
RGW Enchantress RGW
Incorrect. Last-known information is only used when the game needs to know something about an object that's gone, such as activating Prodigal Pyromancer, which is killed with the ability on the stack. Since the Pyromancer is gone, the game has to use LKI to see what it was like right before it died; did it have Infect? Wither? Lifelink? Deathtouch? What color was it [for protection and stuff]?
Emrakul's trigger triggers from the graveyard. By the time Clone gets there, it isn't an Emrakul anymore, it's a Clone, so it doesn't HAVE a trigger to go off.
The latest Comprehensive Rules are also good, and can be found here.
Normally you check the game state after the event to determine of there are any triggered abilities. There are several exceptions, but Emrakul's ability isn't one of them. After the event of both cards being put into the graveyard, the Clone card is no longer a copy of Emrakul, so it doesn't trigger.
Here's the definition of "Leaves the battlefield" abilities, for good measure:
Note that Emmy's ability doesn't say anything about the battlefield.
The wording on Emrakul makes this not true. The main difference being that "Whenever x is put to a graveyard from anywhere..." versus "Whenever x is put into a graveyard from the battlefield. The word "Anywhere" in this case means it triggers from the Graveyard and thus, we don't need any Last Known Information. If Emrakul had a "Leaves the Battlefield" trigger, then we would look at the last known information to determine that indeed, Clone was an Emrakul and your graveyard should be shuffled in. However that is not the case, so it does not apply
As an aside, specifying that you want an L2 or higher really neuters the help you will receive on this forum. Being L2 does not necessarily mean that they know the rules better than anyone else. Plenty of L1s and even people who aren't judges know just as much, if not more than a lot of L2s. I know some people who aren't even rules advisors that know the rules better than some of the L2s I know. Hoodoo is a good resource on this forum as are plenty of other non - L2 judges and he is absolutely correct in this case
Ex-DCI Level 1 judge
Ex-Rules Advisor