It just feel a bit unfair when there are multiple sets of rules for the game. Not just different ways in which failing to follow those rules are enforced.
Knowing that someone out there at a PTQ gets to play a certain way while I am forced to remind my opponent about all his missed triggers that are going to beat me just leaves a weird taste in my mouth.
I guess they've already made a divide between the grinder+ level players and everyone else. This just reinforces it.
Well I do think it makes sense. Giving people a penalty because your opponent forgot to gain a life off of a Soul Warden is silly at a professional level event. This allows them not to waste time, and if someone forgets... oh well, their mistake. Forces us sloppy players to tighten up our game even more though. Which is always a good thing for everyone involved.
The argument being made, is that it ALSO damages an opponent, and that is not on the list, and the presence of something not on the list makes it mandatory.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I agree with everyone else that 1.4 seems incredibly badly written at the moment, and am hoping that it gets rewritten or reverted sometime before the first. However, I also don't understand one statement about the looping rules:
2) I want to set up my deck so that it is in an exact order.
Technically, this is possible - you just bubble sort your deck until it matches the order you want. However, you cannot say how many iterations it will take, and thus you aren't allowed to do it. Trying to do so now gets you a slow play warning and it's time to go do something else instead.
I am pretty sure that you can bubble sort N cards in exactly N^2 scry 2s. So it seems like if I have 40 cards in my library, shouldn't I be allowed to say "I scry 2 1600 times and end with my library in this exact order"?
Well of course, but then I would just keep doing scry 2s until I've reached 1600. By your logic it's also possible in the first case for the card I want on top to be on top at the start, so that loop would be invalid.
Well of course, but then I would just keep doing scry 2s until I've reached 1600. By your logic it's also possible in the first case for the card I want on top to be on top at the start, so that loop would be invalid.
If there is a mathematically certain proof that that's how it works, then that was a pretty poor example for them to use! Unless certain levels of math count and others don't?
So this is essentially just trying to make it more competitive which is all this is currently doing largely and then also allowing some retarded builds to get better, personally i like retarded builds so :). guess i gotta wait for complete clarification.
Transcendence could potentially be played in legacy Enchantress if it ends up breaking the game this much; anyone who's saying "this card isn't playable at high REL so it doesn't matter" is wrong.
I have to point out, this is going to be incredibly awkward...because "competitive" is anything that isn't casual and isn't FNM.
So the rules of the game are going to be different at the same store on different days of the week...
Probably going to lead to a lot of problems where people would like to not have to remind their opponents of triggers during FNM against, what some would call, NOOBS.
Why would they introduce such a huge change to only the Competitive REL? It will cause confusion for anyone moving on from FNM to PTQ, so why not make it universal?
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Why would they introduce such a huge change to only the Competitive REL? It will cause confusion for anyone moving on from FNM to PTQ, so why not make it universal?
Exactly! - It impacts every event your store does (that isn't casual) except for FNM! So the draft you do on Saturday has different rules to it than the standard FNM...
I can understand having different rules for the different levels of events, for things like infractions and qualifying, but not for the core structure of the game.
It also allows people to be complete ass hats. I can easily rules lawyer anything I want out of this rule. Especially from this line:
Puts cards from your library, graveyard, or exile zones into your hand or onto the battlefield. This includes drawing cards.
You forgot to draw your card for the turn? Too bad.
I "forgot" to Exhume my Phage? Guess I don't lose.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Anything that allows me to refrain from reaching over and ticking up the die on my opponent's Shrine of Burning Rage, at some REL in some tournament sometime, has got to be a good thing.
I can understand having different rules for the different levels of events, for things like infractions and qualifying, but not for the core structure of the game.
It also allows people to be complete ass hats. I can easily rules lawyer anything I want out of this rule. Especially from this line:
Puts cards from your library, graveyard, or exile zones into your hand or onto the battlefield. This includes drawing cards.
You forgot to draw your card for the turn? Too bad.
I "forgot" to Exhume my Phage? Guess I don't lose.
This rule covers triggered abilities that don't happen at the same time every turn. Exhume is a spell, not a triggered ability. Your draw step is a step, also not a triggered ability.
Try again.
--
Also, my reasoning behind this being at competitive REL is two-fold. One thing, casual REL is just that, casual. They aren't looking to punish people for forgetting about their abilities. And second, at an FNM, its easy to call the judge or rules adviser when when there's only 8-40 players. When there are up to thousands of players in one event, each missed trigger requiring a judge call really slow down the game.
I need clarification of this new rule for a more specific purpose:
I have a Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur on my side of the battlefield and I have six cards in my library. I convieniently "forget" to draw my seven cards at the end of my turn to keep me from losing. Is that now a legal play at the appropriate RELs?
For everyone saying this effects people differently for FNM and draft, I believe the changes are for Competitive and Professional REL and not for Regular. FNM and store drafts are Regular REL. Basically, anything that normally happens in your store is Regular REL.
Bigger events outside and unusual events like GP trials are not the normal hub-bub and thus, not Regular REL.
I am pretty sure that you can bubble sort N cards in exactly N^2 scry 2s. So it seems like if I have 40 cards in my library, shouldn't I be allowed to say "I scry 2 1600 times and end with my library in this exact order"?
Well of course, but then I would just keep doing scry 2s until I've reached 1600. By your logic it's also possible in the first case for the card I want on top to be on top at the start, so that loop would be invalid.
I agree with Hamster1800, that explanation did not make sense to me and I don't understand and disagree with the conclusion that was reached.
Me. I'm still trying to understand what the hell just happened to the rules and why.
It all distills to:
At a regular REL event you are supposed to point out missed triggered abilities to your opponent so he can learn and become a better player.
At competitive and professional REL events you are not required to point out missed beneficial triggered abilities because your opponent is supposed to know how it works (and he isn't forced to put those triggered abilities on the stack even if you point them out).
Anyone else read 11 pages of thread and still not get it? (Raises hand).
Ow. Brain hurts.
Last night while reading this my head literally felt like it was spinning and I almost threw up. Although, it might have been due to the pizza I ate, I personally blame the thread. Turned off the laptop and did my notes and started feeling better!
I hope hope hope they release some public explanation or at least on the judge articles.
I thought the M10 changes were bad but after a quick explanation I was convinced. 1.4 however just seems bad no matter how you split it.
Will this also impact the rules regarding spectator behaviour ?
I hope so.
Not at all. Players can still stop games and call judges if they notice a problem. The only real difference in that respect is that you are no longer obligated to call a judge when your opponent misses a mandatory trigger
(they still have to call one on themselves though).
/\ /\ /\ With Flametongue Kavu, if your opponent has a legit target for it and you forget to shoot something, too bad for you. But if you're the only one with creatures out and you cast it, it's mandatory to shoot one of your own guys.
Nice..so Ideas Unbond could be the new ancestral recall
No.
You can't forget drawbacks, they're still mandatory. You can only forget triggers that help you, like gaining a life from Soul Warden, etc. And your opponent is no longer obligated to remind you of your effects that benefit yourself.
It just feel a bit unfair when there are multiple sets of rules for the game. Not just different ways in which failing to follow those rules are enforced.
Knowing that someone out there at a PTQ gets to play a certain way while I am forced to remind my opponent about all his missed triggers that are going to beat me just leaves a weird taste in my mouth.
I guess they've already made a divide between the grinder+ level players and everyone else. This just reinforces it.
The argument being made, is that it ALSO damages an opponent, and that is not on the list, and the presence of something not on the list makes it mandatory.
It would be really nice if I could run them with my own artifacts and pass on the etb effect if it doesn't suit me.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
I am pretty sure that you can bubble sort N cards in exactly N^2 scry 2s. So it seems like if I have 40 cards in my library, shouldn't I be allowed to say "I scry 2 1600 times and end with my library in this exact order"?
If there is a mathematically certain proof that that's how it works, then that was a pretty poor example for them to use! Unless certain levels of math count and others don't?
So the rules of the game are going to be different at the same store on different days of the week...
Probably going to lead to a lot of problems where people would like to not have to remind their opponents of triggers during FNM against, what some would call, NOOBS.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Exactly! - It impacts every event your store does (that isn't casual) except for FNM! So the draft you do on Saturday has different rules to it than the standard FNM...
It also allows people to be complete ass hats. I can easily rules lawyer anything I want out of this rule. Especially from this line:
Puts cards from your library, graveyard, or exile zones into your hand or onto the battlefield. This includes drawing cards.
You forgot to draw your card for the turn? Too bad.
I "forgot" to Exhume my Phage? Guess I don't lose.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Worst feeling ever
I hope so.
Noah Weil on scouting, an attorney from Seattle with 20 Pro Tour appearances.
This rule covers triggered abilities that don't happen at the same time every turn. Exhume is a spell, not a triggered ability. Your draw step is a step, also not a triggered ability.
Try again.
--
Also, my reasoning behind this being at competitive REL is two-fold. One thing, casual REL is just that, casual. They aren't looking to punish people for forgetting about their abilities. And second, at an FNM, its easy to call the judge or rules adviser when when there's only 8-40 players. When there are up to thousands of players in one event, each missed trigger requiring a judge call really slow down the game.
I have a Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur on my side of the battlefield and I have six cards in my library. I convieniently "forget" to draw my seven cards at the end of my turn to keep me from losing. Is that now a legal play at the appropriate RELs?
Bigger events outside and unusual events like GP trials are not the normal hub-bub and thus, not Regular REL.
Me. I'm still trying to understand what the hell just happened to the rules and why.
I agree with Hamster1800, that explanation did not make sense to me and I don't understand and disagree with the conclusion that was reached.
It all distills to:
At a regular REL event you are supposed to point out missed triggered abilities to your opponent so he can learn and become a better player.
At competitive and professional REL events you are not required to point out missed beneficial triggered abilities because your opponent is supposed to know how it works (and he isn't forced to put those triggered abilities on the stack even if you point them out).
Last night while reading this my head literally felt like it was spinning and I almost threw up. Although, it might have been due to the pizza I ate, I personally blame the thread. Turned off the laptop and did my notes and started feeling better!
I hope hope hope they release some public explanation or at least on the judge articles.
I thought the M10 changes were bad but after a quick explanation I was convinced. 1.4 however just seems bad no matter how you split it.
Not at all. Players can still stop games and call judges if they notice a problem. The only real difference in that respect is that you are no longer obligated to call a judge when your opponent misses a mandatory trigger
(they still have to call one on themselves though).
That's how I understand the ruling anyways.
No.
You can't forget drawbacks, they're still mandatory. You can only forget triggers that help you, like gaining a life from Soul Warden, etc. And your opponent is no longer obligated to remind you of your effects that benefit yourself.
I like this change a lot.
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