Wee Dragonauts meet Kiln Fiend! Sad to say Kiln Fiend is the first common I've seen in RoE to excite me. What a little beat stick.
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"Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter, Hymn to Tourach. If there is an unholy trio in Magic, this is it. These three cards have been wreaking havoc and crushing dreams for over a decade. They're like the New York Yankees, except powered by black magic. Oh, wait... never mind." Chris Millar House of Cards
Yeah, thanks for that ridiculous strawman. Also, great telling me to ignore the powerlevel on an obviously ridiculously overpowered example which you are trying to portray as ridiculous because it is overpowered. Tautology 101 much?
You are also trying to establish a false equivalency because replicate is not rebound!
Nobody said it wasn't a draw effect. However, blue does not have the monopoly on draw effects. This is, as shown with the examples, a white effect which white can have without every single person in this forum *****ing about blue not getting the effect.
Please tell me: If I cycled two Renewed Faith in a row, would that be out of color for white? And if not, why would it be for cost less?
The obvious conclusion is that he wanted to cost it so that it has elements that would be considered "the norm" for other colors. Ignoring the power level or re-costing it would still have the same problem. Drawing a card for 1U+X is expected for blue, but definitely not for red.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Yeah, man. What's the drawback? Make sure I clear out the really small blockers so he can squish the bigger ones before he gets in for damage? I like him.
Wall of Omens and the plethora of defenders printed in this set? Not to mention any number of Eldrazi Spawn. He's still a great card though.
Contaminated Ground seems great. Mana Disruption and another way to deal with Man-Lands for MBC.
I think the reason people get upset even more over other colors getting things that are traditionally Blue (Card Draw) is because its not getting any cards on the power level of what other colors get. Green gets Vengevine, White gets Wall of Omens, and Blue has nothing comparable. If they don't want to give them good card draw or counters they need to figure out a way to give blue SOMETHING. You can't just take their part of the Pie away and give nothing back.
I mean, let's face it, cycling always have the potential to be evergreen seeing how many times it returned. I guess blue having cycling isn't bad and it can always bleed a little into white. Maybe green.
Oh, and I love so many cards here it isn't funny. Contaminated Ground looks good, as it does set your opponent back a little if he has to use the mana for something, or else he is set back by a turn. Good stuff.
EDIT: Mr. Black, you do know that it cannot reduce the mana cost until zero? It at best can only be 1.
Wait!Wait! So training ground is for real?!!! Doesn't it break a few things? Like transcendent master being a 9/9 indestructible the moment it hits play to name just one.
Contaminated Ground seems great. Mana Disruption and another way to deal with Man-Lands for MBC.
I think the reason people get upset even more over other colors getting things that are traditionally Blue (Card Draw) is because its not getting any cards on the power level of what other colors get. Green gets Vengevine, White gets Wall of Omens, and Blue has nothing comparable. If they don't want to give them good card draw or counters they need to figure out a way to give blue SOMETHING. You can't just take their part of the Pie away and give nothing back.
Yeah, but the problem is that everyone wants blue to get its power back all at once. Which would be a terrible thing for the game as a whole. Once Shards of Alara rotates out, Jund and some other powerful cards will be gone, leaving holes to be filled in the new Standard. If Blue control suddenly got a suite of new powerful card draw and counterspells, as soon as Cascade and such left Type 2 it would be able to dominate the environment again just as it has in the past. Blue will get its groove back, but at a more measured pace to keep it from regressing back to the place where R&D wants to keep it away from.
A strawman is a fallacy where the party arguing against a subject props up an obviously flawed example (the strawman) to tear it down and make it look like the promoting party advocated that example. To me that sounds like exactly what you did.
What I did was to point out that two apparently unrelated effects can combine to make a different effect that is outside of the color pie limitations on what colors are supposed to get.
What kind of effect is on that card? The same effect like on Renewed Faith or Reviving Dose. These are white cards nobody every objected to and I don't see a reason to object to this one either. In fact it is you who is trying to argue that such an effect does not belong into white! In fact it is you who is arguing that repeating the effect makes it too powerful and therefore does not belong into white.
There are two effects that, in combination, do something that white is not traditionally allowed to do.
What you are of course ignoring here is that that the cards drawn from Survival Cache are only drawn under a condition. The cards are not guaranteed the way you portray it.
Also, white has on occasion gotten two for one effects involving card draw. For example we have Carrier Pidgeons, and more recently Rhox Meditant and of course Wall of Omens in this set. There is also Pursuit of Knowledge.
Carrier Pigeons is ancient and part of a cycle. Rhox Meditant is a green effect (and allowed specifically because it requires you to also play green, like many off-color effects on many creatures). I've already expressed my belief that Wall of Omens is off-color.
Pursuit of Knowledge was printed as a white card. Do you disagree that, if it were reprinted today, it would be blue instead? "Pursuing knowledge" is not generally considered white flavor, do you not agree?
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If God spoke to you, and commanded you to kill your own children, would you do it?
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
Wait!Wait! So training ground is for real?!!! Doesn't it break a few things? Like transcendent master being a 9/9 indestructible the moment it hits play to name just one.
Yay, another completely flawed example:
1) Red does not get discard. Ever. The only red card that can bring an opposing player to discard cards without the help of black or without replacing the cards is Scullscorch which is a punisher card where multiple out of color mechanics bled into red. White however, as shown with multiple examples, has gotten small scale card draw in the past, including two for ones, and including the exact effect that Survival Cache has!
2) You are using a destructive example rather than a constructive example. A destruction is much more valuable than construction in most cases.
Your mention of Skullscorch brings up a question, did anyone care about Browbeat? Because this seams to fall in the same category as Browbeat, getting an off color effect if an on color condition is met. Plus I'm not sure why everyone is making such a big stink about this, its probably the worst card draw in standard, it only helps you if your ahead or even with your opponent and they get a whole turn to stop you from getting the second card if they so desire.
I apologize for the length (I tend to need to follow my train of thought to the end before proceeding to the next, resulting in overly long posts, papers, and monologues in conversations) and for the copious amount of parentheses.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
Training Ground makes the levelers much better. Blue seems to get few good at least, shame that it doesn't matter... white is new blue with its draw engines. Although, black isn't needed either, white is getting aggressive removal also. 3 color magic, here we come. All that white needs now is Lightning Bolt and Lotus Cobra. White have the best creature (bankslayer), best removal (path) and now it can draw too. Nice. Yes, I'm talking about T2 only.
Recent discussions here and elsewhere have made it clear that there seems to be a group of players who consider blue and control synonymous, as if they somehow started playing a game with four identical and "bad" colors that do nothing interesting because they just "turn men sideways" and then true, glorious blue, the only thinking person's color.
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
I'm unsure about the white card draw card that everyone is flipping out about. It is really worth it to gain two life and potentially draw a card at sorcery speed, then gain two more life and potentially draw another card next turn? Not saying it's bad, but is it worth a deck slot?
The second better draw color in magic is black, and green and white received a lot of love in this aspect in ROE.
Actually, that's not true. According to MaRo, the secondary color for draw is green, and it has been that way for a long time. It's just you could never really notice, because black historically gets a couple of really good draw sources and green just gets a big bunch of rubbish.
edit: nath'd D:
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Quote from Nirvava »
you can generally tell the easiest road to victory by how many players congregate on it; and the road of counterspells/control has been the freeway of choice in magic for quite some time.
Quote from photodyer »
What I find offensive is not that Wizards is endeavoring to make the game more accessible, but the attitudes of elitists who act as though no one of any age should show their face in the Magic public without first having mastery over the complexities of the game.
Wow some pretty good cards on the list, training ground is obviously redic. I don't understand the hate on the lifegain card, because that is what it is a lifegain card with the potential of drawing cards.
White card draw (even repeated) that is contingent on life gain is perfectly fine to me.
"Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter, Hymn to Tourach. If there is an unholy trio in Magic, this is it. These three cards have been wreaking havoc and crushing dreams for over a decade. They're like the New York Yankees, except powered by black magic. Oh, wait... never mind."
Chris Millar
House of Cards
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Wall of Omens and the plethora of defenders printed in this set? Not to mention any number of Eldrazi Spawn. He's still a great card though.
My Sales Post!
- whhhhhaaat?
Standard Decks:
UBRGrixis ControlRBU
UU to cast anything, including eldrazi. Awesome.
I think the reason people get upset even more over other colors getting things that are traditionally Blue (Card Draw) is because its not getting any cards on the power level of what other colors get. Green gets Vengevine, White gets Wall of Omens, and Blue has nothing comparable. If they don't want to give them good card draw or counters they need to figure out a way to give blue SOMETHING. You can't just take their part of the Pie away and give nothing back.
I mean, let's face it, cycling always have the potential to be evergreen seeing how many times it returned. I guess blue having cycling isn't bad and it can always bleed a little into white. Maybe green.
Oh, and I love so many cards here it isn't funny. Contaminated Ground looks good, as it does set your opponent back a little if he has to use the mana for something, or else he is set back by a turn. Good stuff.
EDIT: Mr. Black, you do know that it cannot reduce the mana cost until zero? It at best can only be 1.
Currently playing:
T2
BW Aggro-Midrange BW
It can't reduce the cost to lower than 1.
Rebound Afflict
2BB
Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
Draw a card.
Rebound
Or this for red?
Rebound Flare
2RR
Rebound Flare deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
Draw a card.
Rebound
So what about this for white?
Rebound Reviving Dose
2WW
You gain 3 life.
Draw a card.
Rebound
Survival Cache is more conditional than this. I think it's a reasonable exploration of the rebound mechanic.
Yeah, but the problem is that everyone wants blue to get its power back all at once. Which would be a terrible thing for the game as a whole. Once Shards of Alara rotates out, Jund and some other powerful cards will be gone, leaving holes to be filled in the new Standard. If Blue control suddenly got a suite of new powerful card draw and counterspells, as soon as Cascade and such left Type 2 it would be able to dominate the environment again just as it has in the past. Blue will get its groove back, but at a more measured pace to keep it from regressing back to the place where R&D wants to keep it away from.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
What I did was to point out that two apparently unrelated effects can combine to make a different effect that is outside of the color pie limitations on what colors are supposed to get.
There are two effects that, in combination, do something that white is not traditionally allowed to do.
Carrier Pigeons is ancient and part of a cycle. Rhox Meditant is a green effect (and allowed specifically because it requires you to also play green, like many off-color effects on many creatures). I've already expressed my belief that Wall of Omens is off-color.
Pursuit of Knowledge was printed as a white card. Do you disagree that, if it were reprinted today, it would be blue instead? "Pursuing knowledge" is not generally considered white flavor, do you not agree?
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
It can't reduce the cost to less than {1}.
Training ground x2 + spawnsire however...
Your mention of Skullscorch brings up a question, did anyone care about Browbeat? Because this seams to fall in the same category as Browbeat, getting an off color effect if an on color condition is met. Plus I'm not sure why everyone is making such a big stink about this, its probably the worst card draw in standard, it only helps you if your ahead or even with your opponent and they get a whole turn to stop you from getting the second card if they so desire.
Link to personality test
I apologize for the length (I tend to need to follow my train of thought to the end before proceeding to the next, resulting in overly long posts, papers, and monologues in conversations) and for the copious amount of parentheses.
Theres no more excuses to reprint (functional?) something like Dark Ritual or danmation other than the power level.
Harm's Way and Kor Cartographer.
lolwut? white is purple?
http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20801.jpg
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Green is second best. Black is third. Ranking goes as such:
1. Blue
2. Green (usually creature or land related)
3. Black (usually in exchange for a sacrifice or life payment)
4. White
5. Red
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Trades
Pucatrade with me!
(Signature courtesy of Argetlam of Hakai Studios
Actually, that's not true. According to MaRo, the secondary color for draw is green, and it has been that way for a long time. It's just you could never really notice, because black historically gets a couple of really good draw sources and green just gets a big bunch of rubbish.
edit: nath'd D:
Legacy: Burn, U/R Delver
Modern: U/R Storm, Soul Sisters
Vintage: #ImBrokeLOL
EDH: Nin, the Pain Artist (Chaos), Roon of the Hidden Realm (Blink)
White card draw (even repeated) that is contingent on life gain is perfectly fine to me.
Haha, you do realise that the reason that everyone is all angsty is that
survival chace cantrips twice right ^^
Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Phyrexian Arena, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
How green is better in this aspect?