As I have yet to see this change implemented in the current (pre-M10) or future (post-M10) game, I will from this point on stop commenting on the positive or negative aspects of this change.
I will be hosting a (mock) "Death of Magic" party with my friends either tonight or tommorrow at our local card shop. We will test the new rules under a bunch of different circumstances, and I will report back later.
in most cases a sac creature is still a valuable tool in a deck it just isn't an automatic 2 for one anymore, Quasali Pridemage is still a good card, if you are looking for a 1 drop mog fanatic is still an attractive option it just got demoted from card advantage to merely a good option for a one drop. Sac effects are still good and in many cases will still be really good especially if the creature involved is aggressively costed like the aforementioned pridemage. you will just have a tougher decision to make when it comes time to use the ability
you just have to think more when playing and deck building instead of just throwing together a collection of 2 for one effect creatures and overwhelming your opponant with card advantage. it's a similar reason why i can't wait for rainbow mana to leave the format. It appears on the outside like you havemore options but you really have less because less cards are actually viable in the current standard format
I never said sac-effects are terrible, what I am saying, is that you are not going to attack with the ones you want to use.
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My signature was created by Zaphod of High~Light Studios. He's brilliant.
i love this game, and I've never been one to follow hype along the lines of "Mythics are destroying Magic" etc., but these new rules changes completely change how magic is played, and in a very, very bad way. I foresee many players quitting, possibly including me.
Wow....... busiest thread EVER. I seriously feel sorry for the mods who have to read all of this. 1200 posts in a 2 day time frame and 70+ people reading it atm -- unreal. Anyway, I read the article, and missed when the new rules take effect. I'm looking for a day, not when x becomes legal or gets released.
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Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
I never said sac-effects are terrible, what I am saying, is that you are not going to attack with the ones you want to use.
well with the exception of the fanatic most of them require tapping to activate. and really to attack with them or not will be a choice you have to make right or wrong may not be clear for a couple of turns whereas right now the right choice is usually pretty apparent. you don't see how that adds to the game instead of taking away from it?
Im surprised no one at WotC post on any forums about the rules change. What really bothers me is they got us involved when they asked us to vote on what cards we wanted in core sets but they dont ask us what we think about this huge rules change. I think if I was them I would of done some sort of poll on what people would think about the change.
Exactly, there won't be a strategic decision to use sac effect creatures. People just won't play them because they aren't that good anymore. They were made with the combat damage rules in mind, and were balanced that way. Mogg Fanatic was designed as a creature that could act as a shock, but now it's just a bad 1/1.
LOL. I love these kids! Seriously though - Mogg Fanatic actually functions as designed NOW. (as Tempest was released prior to 6th Ed.)
Really, what makes a deathtouch Grizzly bear different from a normal Grizzly bear (Aside from the fact it has rabies)? This just shows how ridiculous the new combat rules are.
Only bad players won't ask damage on the stack every turn. It's their fault if they are going to telegraph their plays so obviously by asking if damage is on the stack ONLY when they have a trick.
Right, but since the majority of players aren't PT, it's a routine phrase in many FNM and pre-re tourneys.
Whether or notyou are a "good" player is completely irrelevant. If you are playing a less regimented opponent you have to pull a "waitta minute..." Most players do NOT announce each step unless forced.
Now the only combat step to announce is now "I am going to attack".
Test it. I bet you will agree combat flows better. It has nothing to do with strategy, skill or intelligence. It's raw design.
Really, what makes a deathtouch Grizzly bear different from a normal Grizzly bear (Aside from the fact it has rabies)? This just shows how ridiculous the new combat rules are.
Maybe the awesome Stomphowler effect? Granted, I'm not PT here.
LOL. I love these kids! Seriously though - Mogg Fanatic actually functions as designed NOW. (as Tempest was released prior to 6th Ed.)
Exactly. Most of the cards affected are from pre-6th... They've visibly had to rein in sac power since 6th. And Blink deck design has gotten ridiculously predictable with each new expansion.
I sent an email to the developers, just to state my opinion, trying to be as polite as possible and not rant. I'll repost it here for discussion's sake...
Obviously, I am not a Magic developer and have not playtested this change to death as I am sure you gentlemen have.
You letter is well-composed and not at all ranty. I commend you for that. But how many games had you playtested before you sent this letter?
Really, what makes a deathtouch Grizzly bear different from a normal Grizzly bear (Aside from the fact it has rabies)? This just shows how ridiculous the new combat rules are.
Wow....... busiest thread EVER. I seriously feel sorry for the mods who have to read all of this. 1200 posts in a 2 day time frame -- unreal and 70+ people reading it atm. Anyway, I read the article, and missed when the new rules take effect. I'm looking for a day.
I just realized that as well! This is however the change with the most impact since the 6th edition rules changes, so it's to be expected!
Genju of the Fields remains the ridiculous amounts of lifegain card of choice now that they are un-errataing the old "lifelink" cards
My friends and I were going to playtest tonight for the Starcitygames 5K in Atlanta this weekend, but I have a feeling when we close the store and start playtesting, its just going to turn into a huge argument about the new rules and how they are basically making the game less skill intensive. If you disagree, then that is foolish, because you always lose elements of strategy by taking away a players options, which is what loss of stacked damage gives you: Less player option.
It actually makes combat more skill intensive. It doesn't take as much skill to automatically use a sac ability whenever damage is on the stack as it does to choose which is better: getting the use of a sac ability or doing damage to a blocking/blocked creature.
And in any case, the change is really just reverting to the way the game was designed to be played in the first place.
Really, what makes a deathtouch Grizzly bear different from a normal Grizzly bear (Aside from the fact it has rabies)? This just shows how ridiculous the new combat rules are.
I understand where you're coming from. Why should a Deathtouch bear be able to kill two 3/3s when a non deathtouch bear can't deal 1 to each and then kill them both with an Inflame?
They can't errata everything, but then why errata deathtouch? I guess wizards liked the ability. =/ *shrugs*
Then again, who gangblocks a 2/2 Deathtouch with two 3/3s? Maybe very few. In the non-touch scenario, maybeyour opponent knows you could have a certain +4/+2 and trample spell and he's at one or two? There can be times it matters, I guess.
Really, what makes a deathtouch Grizzly bear different from a normal Grizzly bear (Aside from the fact it has rabies)? This just shows how ridiculous the new combat rules are.
Um... it has deathtouch?
VERY different. It even assigns damage differently and was reworded to keep deathtouch a viable effect.
The new rules will be effective upon the prerelease of M10 as I gathered, which is July 11.
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Quote from Fry, from Futurama »
It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
If you block with a creature, then sacrifice it, is the thing it blocked still considered blocked?
Like, does it deal damage to you...or to thin air...or what...
Also are we sure they put the kaibosh on multiple lifelink?
As soon as a blocker is declared, which doesn't use the stack, then the attacking creature becomes a blocked creature until the end of combat, no matter what happens to the blocking creature.
When combat damage no longer uses the stack, if your blocking creature is sacrificed, exiled, destroyed, or otherwise removed from combat, then it does not deal combat damage. However, the blocked creature will still be blocked. If the blocked creature has trample, then it can deal all of the damage to the defending player/planeswalker.
Yes we are sure about Lifelink. Since it is a static ability, either a creature has it, or doesn't.
It actually makes combat more skill intensive. It doesn't take as much skill to automatically use a sac ability whenever damage is on the stack as it does to choose which is better: getting the use of a sac ability or doing damage to a blocking/blocked creature.
And in any case, the change is really just reverting to the way the game was designed to be played in the first place.
This is what most people don't seem to understand. Previously the skill in the process revolved around understanding how stacking worked and choosing the best cards to abuse that. Now it involves making real decisions during combat instead of just automatically taking the two for one in every instance.
Yep, that's pretty much right. Same reason an elephant with trample can run over the blocker to hit the player, and an elephant of the same size without trample cannot. Keywords change the combat properties of creatures for the game's purposes, not always for flavor purposes.
As soon as a blocker is declared, which doesn't use the stack, then the attacking creature becomes a blocked creature until the end of combat, no matter what happens to the blocking creature.
When combat damage no longer uses the stack, if your blocking creature is sacrificed, exiled, destroyed, or otherwise removed from combat, then it does not deal combat damage. However, the blocked creature will still be blocked. If the blocked creature has trample, then it can deal all of the damage to the defending player/planeswalker.
Yes we are sure about Lifelink. Since it is a static ability, either a creature has it, or doesn't.
So this does basically nothing for Sakura Tribe Elder or Spawning Pit-type tricks.
He was asking flavor-wise. Why should a normal bear not be able to do 1 damage to a 3/3 and another 3/3 while a bear with poison claws can?
Although the new rule usually won't make a difference, it would be nice to have that option for certain tricks. ex. non-deathtouch bear deals 1 damage to both 3/3's then cast volcanic fallout.
I will be hosting a (mock) "Death of Magic" party with my friends either tonight or tommorrow at our local card shop. We will test the new rules under a bunch of different circumstances, and I will report back later.
Custom Set: Pokemon: Generation 1
My mind numbing DC-10 stack!
I never said sac-effects are terrible, what I am saying, is that you are not going to attack with the ones you want to use.
Like, does it deal damage to you...or to thin air...or what...
Also are we sure they put the kaibosh on multiple lifelink?
((I can still post; just no opinions))
Yes to lifelink. But you can still use and stack cards like Spirit Link which does *not* grant lifelink...
Custom Set: Pokemon: Generation 1
My mind numbing DC-10 stack!
Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
well with the exception of the fanatic most of them require tapping to activate. and really to attack with them or not will be a choice you have to make right or wrong may not be clear for a couple of turns whereas right now the right choice is usually pretty apparent. you don't see how that adds to the game instead of taking away from it?
Dark Times (Vintage)
Project Parfait (Vintage)
Jaya Ballard (EDH)
(Northeastern PA Vintage)
LOL. I love these kids! Seriously though - Mogg Fanatic actually functions as designed NOW. (as Tempest was released prior to 6th Ed.)
Cheers!
Also awesome is Vampiric Link which doesn't read lifelink either...
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Right, but since the majority of players aren't PT, it's a routine phrase in many FNM and pre-re tourneys.
Whether or not you are a "good" player is completely irrelevant. If you are playing a less regimented opponent you have to pull a "waitta minute..." Most players do NOT announce each step unless forced.
Now the only combat step to announce is now "I am going to attack".
Test it. I bet you will agree combat flows better. It has nothing to do with strategy, skill or intelligence. It's raw design.
Maybe the awesome Stomphowler effect? Granted, I'm not PT here.
Exactly. Most of the cards affected are from pre-6th... They've visibly had to rein in sac power since 6th. And Blink deck design has gotten ridiculously predictable with each new expansion.
You letter is well-composed and not at all ranty. I commend you for that. But how many games had you playtested before you sent this letter?
That rabid bear can knock your 3/3+ out a window.
I just realized that as well! This is however the change with the most impact since the 6th edition rules changes, so it's to be expected!
Genju of the Fields remains the ridiculous amounts of lifegain card of choice now that they are un-errataing the old "lifelink" cards
It actually makes combat more skill intensive. It doesn't take as much skill to automatically use a sac ability whenever damage is on the stack as it does to choose which is better: getting the use of a sac ability or doing damage to a blocking/blocked creature.
And in any case, the change is really just reverting to the way the game was designed to be played in the first place.
I understand where you're coming from. Why should a Deathtouch bear be able to kill two 3/3s when a non deathtouch bear can't deal 1 to each and then kill them both with an Inflame?
They can't errata everything, but then why errata deathtouch? I guess wizards liked the ability. =/ *shrugs*
Then again, who gangblocks a 2/2 Deathtouch with two 3/3s? Maybe very few. In the non-touch scenario, maybeyour opponent knows you could have a certain +4/+2 and trample spell and he's at one or two? There can be times it matters, I guess.
Um... it has deathtouch?
VERY different. It even assigns damage differently and was reworded to keep deathtouch a viable effect.
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Global Moderator at Magecraft
As soon as a blocker is declared, which doesn't use the stack, then the attacking creature becomes a blocked creature until the end of combat, no matter what happens to the blocking creature.
When combat damage no longer uses the stack, if your blocking creature is sacrificed, exiled, destroyed, or otherwise removed from combat, then it does not deal combat damage. However, the blocked creature will still be blocked. If the blocked creature has trample, then it can deal all of the damage to the defending player/planeswalker.
Yes we are sure about Lifelink. Since it is a static ability, either a creature has it, or doesn't.
Simple...the one with deathtouch is special
This is what most people don't seem to understand. Previously the skill in the process revolved around understanding how stacking worked and choosing the best cards to abuse that. Now it involves making real decisions during combat instead of just automatically taking the two for one in every instance.
Dark Times (Vintage)
Project Parfait (Vintage)
Jaya Ballard (EDH)
(Northeastern PA Vintage)
Yep, that's pretty much right. Same reason an elephant with trample can run over the blocker to hit the player, and an elephant of the same size without trample cannot. Keywords change the combat properties of creatures for the game's purposes, not always for flavor purposes.
So this does basically nothing for Sakura Tribe Elder or Spawning Pit-type tricks.
Yay.
The lifelink thing bugs me.
Although the new rule usually won't make a difference, it would be nice to have that option for certain tricks. ex. non-deathtouch bear deals 1 damage to both 3/3's then cast volcanic fallout.