I'm definitely confused about the art in the spoiler images FOR RTR... but I'm also kind of relieved because that is more slots that won't get wasted on reprints.
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My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
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the main problem, as i understand it, with signets, is that it provides both fixing and ramp for any and all decks. on Ravnica, fixing is essential, and IMO the most elegant, balanced, and flavor-nostalgia-touchy-feely-goodtime solution is to switch the cost and activation of the original signets...
How are Signets being in the Duel Deck confirming anything?
Brainstorm is in the Izzet deck, and there is no way on Earth Wizards is ever going to reprint Brainstorm. Not even for the fact it would be in standard with Snapcaster, but it would be legal in Modern. There are also dredge cards in the golgari side, and dredge isn't coming back.
I'll believe Signets are in when Wizards spoils them.
It's not that they're in the duel deck, it's that the art used was spoiled among a plethora of other confirmed RTR art, along with art that is quite apparently for the other 8 signets.
EDIT: Also, as many have already said, if they're doing signets, it will be a straight reprint. They're comparable in power to the mana myr and Sphere of the Suns. Sure, sphere could run out of counters, but it was printed alongside proliferate. They are nowhere near as powerful as people seem to be remembering. We're heading toward a standard that thusfar has no two mana counterspells. Go ahead, keep talking about how ridiculous they were alongside Remand. That was then, this is now.
It's not that they're in the duel deck, it's that the art used was spoiled among a plethora of other confirmed RTR art, along with art that is quite apparently for the other 8 signets.
Could be for promo cards.
Whereas they've said 'No, signets are not appropriate for today's environment.' Sorry, no signets.
Where? Where did "they" say this? It's unlikely that they'd preview art for the signets that's among art exclusively for RTR and Gatecrash.
Many times, it's been quoted in similiar 'Where's muh Signets/Remands/Compulsive Research/Really good Ravnica Card' threads many times, but here's the link for you.
"You guys are power creeping so hard."
"Hmm. I don't think we are. After all, there are all kinds of spells that we would never print nowadays that ran rampant in old environments, such as Compulsive Research, Force Spike, Remand, 'Signets,' etc."
Now, you might say 'Oh but they could change their mind' but this was the article revealing Cavern of Souls. That means it's during the reveal of a card while Return to Ravnica was in development, written BY one of RTR's developers.
'Oh but Zac Hill doesn't work there any more so they could have changed things!'
He left a month ago. I REALLY doubt they radically changed the development of RTR while it was ALREADY SENT TO THE PRINTERS.
No. You will NOT see Signets in RTR. They said so. The evidence for this is OVERWHELMING. There's no room in the numbering FOR five signets.
It is NOT happening.
That art is probably for promo cards or for mana-fixing in future casual products like Dual Decks, etc, or possibly for Duels of the Planeswalkers.
Whereas they've said 'No, signets are not appropriate for today's environment.' Sorry, no signets.
No. They used the art for the signets in MTGO and previewed the same are for rtr. They are not going to use the art on the signets and then the same art on some different promo card.
Someone from WOTC said signets were not a card they would print today. They never said they would not reprint them. Even so, they have said in the past they wouldn't reprint things like lightning bolt, and yet they did.
Signets will be here in RTR but mainly because the art they said will be in rtr has already shown up on two signets.
Many times, it's been quoted in similiar 'Where's muh Signets/Remands/Compulsive Research/Really good Ravnica Card' threads many times, but here's the link for you.
"You guys are power creeping so hard."
"Hmm. I don't think we are. After all, there are all kinds of spells that we would never print nowadays that ran rampant in old environments, such as Compulsive Research, Force Spike, Remand, 'Signets,' etc."
Now, you might say 'Oh but they could change their mind' but this was the article revealing Cavern of Souls. That means it's during the reveal of a card while Return to Ravnica was in development, written BY one of RTR's developers.
'Oh but Zac Hill doesn't work there any more so they could have changed things!'
He left a month ago. I REALLY doubt they radically changed the development of RTR while it was ALREADY SENT TO THE PRINTERS.
No. You will NOT see Signets in RTR. They said so. The evidence for this is OVERWHELMING. There's no room in the numbering FOR five signets.
It is NOT happening.
That art is probably for promo cards or for mana-fixing in future casual products like Dual Decks, etc, or possibly for Duels of the Planeswalkers.
But it is NOT for anything standard-legal.
I love how you raged against arguments I didn't make, yet completely ignored the valid argument I did make.
Also, the spoiler mistakenly has Pithing Needle at 233 instead of 231. There's plenty of room for the signets.
To argue against using that article as any sort of proof: sure, Zac Hill had say in making these sets, and what he said in the article is a view likely shared by more than a few of the members making Magic. That said, they brought back lightning bolt in M10 and again in M11, printed Baneslayer Angel and the titans twice each, and brought back Mana Leak in M11, and most recently they've brought back the shocklands. They aren't printing signets outside of a return to ravnica just like they didn't print ridiculous dual lands in shards, but this is an occassion where signets are very likely to return. They put as many as they could in each commander deck, and Wizards are huge fans of EDH. They'd no doubt be happy to help noobs get their hands on some signets. They've also made it a point in one of the articles this week to mention that we're entering a standard with very little in the way of cheap counterspells. That takes away a lot of the advantage that signets had last time around, and shows that they've carefully crafted an environment in which signets would be welcome to return.
I love how you raged against arguments I didn't make, yet completely ignored the valid argument I did make.
Also, the spoiler mistakenly has Pithing Needle at 233 instead of 231. There's plenty of room for the signets.
To argue against using that article as any sort of proof: sure, Zac Hill had say in making these sets, and what he said in the article is a view likely shared by more than a few of the members making Magic. That said, they brought back lightning bolt in M10 and again in M11, printed Baneslayer Angel and the titans twice each, and brought back Mana Leak in M11, and most recently they've brought back the shocklands.
That's great and all, but this article is from Avacyn Restored, and thus what they USED TO PRINT is not relevant to what they are printing NOW. It's a -recent- article. It's less than a year old.
And what's important is that it dates from when Return to Ravnica was in -development- and written by one of Return to Ravnica's developers.
In other words, he wrote that WHILE DEVELOPING RTR.
So, yes, that's a VERY relevant statement as to what's being done in RTR. If they had any plan on printing signets in RtR, then someone working on that set wouldn't have said that they would not print signets in today's Magic, while admitting those same cards were format defining in years past.
Notice: They don't print Mana Leak any more. Exactly as he said.
They aren't printing signets outside of a return to ravnica just like they didn't print ridiculous dual lands in shards, but this is an occassion where signets are very likely to return.
They aren't printing signets IN Return to Ravnica either.
They put as many as they could in each commander deck, and Wizards are huge fans of EDH. They'd no doubt be happy to help noobs get their hands on some signets.
If they want to have the paper in print for Commander, they could simply print them in Commander's Arsenel. Keeps them out of Standard and Limited, which is absolutely fine.
They've also made it a point in one of the articles this week to mention that we're entering a standard with very little in the way of cheap counterspells. That takes away a lot of the advantage that signets had last time around, and shows that they've carefully crafted an environment in which signets would be welcome to return.
Unrelated things are unrelated.
It isn't countermagic that is stopping them from printing signets--it's having 10 card slots in limited taken up by colorless non-creature mana ramp that allows one to splash anything you want.
You need to face facts. They said they aren't printing signets, they said it very recently, they said it during the development of the set you are claiming they belong in, and it was ALL said by one of the developers of that set.
Your evidence is 'They have new art.'
My evidence is 'The developer of the set said no.'
Also, I didn't just argue new art. The new art was spoiled amongst other confirmed RTR and Gatecrash art. My argument is far more compelling when taken in context.
I need to face facts? You need to face the fact that they have not once said they won't reprint the signets. Stop blatantly lying.
By the way, here's a little gem from that same article.
"One of the problems is that Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules. Similar to why the Swords are so powerful—their costs were locked in before people really understood how to price Equipment—Mana Leak is a relic of a bygone era."
By your logic, they would never reprint Mana Leak in M12 and would never finish out the swords cycle in Scars block. But they did.
That's great and all, but this article is from Avacyn Restored, and thus what they USED TO PRINT is not relevant to what they are printing NOW. It's a -recent- article. It's less than a year old.
And what's important is that it dates from when Return to Ravnica was in -development- and written by one of Return to Ravnica's developers.
In other words, he wrote that WHILE DEVELOPING RTR.
So, yes, that's a VERY relevant statement as to what's being done in RTR. If they had any plan on printing signets in RtR, then someone working on that set wouldn't have said that they would not print signets in today's Magic, while admitting those same cards were format defining in years past.
Notice: They don't print Mana Leak any more. Exactly as he said.
They aren't printing signets IN Return to Ravnica either.
If they want to have the paper in print for Commander, they could simply print them in Commander's Arsenel. Keeps them out of Standard and Limited, which is absolutely fine.
Unrelated things are unrelated.
It isn't countermagic that is stopping them from printing signets--it's having 10 card slots in limited taken up by colorless non-creature mana ramp that allows one to splash anything you want.
You need to face facts. They said they aren't printing signets, they said it very recently, they said it during the development of the set you are claiming they belong in, and it was ALL said by one of the developers of that set.
Your evidence is 'They have new art.'
My evidence is 'The developer of the set said no.'
Which is more compelling?
I could see them getting reprinted for the exact reason the person you're raging against said. They have ten pieces of art depicting the guild's insignias that are confirmed to be art for RtR and GtC (not sure what it's abbreviation is). 2 of them were used on their respective signets in in the duels decks. That leaves you with two options.
1) they are being reprinted in this block and an RnD member said one thing in an article that ended up being different.
2) they are not being reprinted, and wizards used the same art on two different cards.
Since scenario one has happened before and scenario two has never happened in the history of the game it would appear to me as though the reprinting of the signets would be very likely.
Edit - probably should clarify that the same art has never been used twice outside of print run errors (I.e. revised serendib efreet). So I guess your argument should be something like "the only reason they have the same pictures is because there was a mix up with the printing and they got accidentally slipped in 2 RtR arts instead of the actual arts. oddly enough The art fit the original art description perfectly despite being commissioned for a completely different card that is clearly also a 10 card cycle depicting the guild's insignias." which seems highly unlikely.
Also, I didn't just argue new art. The new art was spoiled amongst other confirmed RTR and Gatecrash art. My argument is far more compelling when taken in context.
I need to face facts? You need to face the fact that they have not once said they won't reprint the signets. Stop blatantly lying.
By the way, here's a little gem from that same article.
"One of the problems is that Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules. Similar to why the Swords are so powerful—their costs were locked in before people really understood how to price Equipment—Mana Leak is a relic of a bygone era."
By your logic, they would never reprint Mana Leak in M12 and would never finish out the swords cycle in Scars block. But they did.
Do you understand how time works?
Here's the timeline. Follow along.
M11->Scars of Mirrodin->Mirrodin Beseiged->New Phyrexia->M12->Innistrad (wherein we find Snapcaster)->Dark Ascension->Avacyn Restored(Wherein we find Cavern of Souls)->M13->Return to Ravnica.
Okay?
That means that the article was printed AFTER M12. AFTER Scars. AFTER Innistrad. It was printed after these sets were, and AFTER Snapcaster Mage. With me so far?
In that article, it states that Mana Leak belongs in the past.
When is M12? In the past (relative to that article).
Where is Scars of Mirrodin? In the past.
Where is everything he stated was a relic of the past? In the past.
What sets were in development when that article was written?
M13 and RtR.
Notice: No mana leak in M13. In fact, notice: Cheap counters are ramped WAY the hell back.
So what if they'd print X or Y in M11 or M12? He's talking about M13-era standard. He's talking about stuff bring printed given what they know of the game with Avacyn Restored. Who cares what's in M12? It's rotating out in the standard that he's a developer for--he's developing and talking about a standard with Innistrad block, M13, and Return to Ravnica block.
That means if he says that there's no signets, you aren't going to see Signets in Innistrad block, M13, or Return to Ravnica block, because they don't fit their vision of power level for that block, or the pushing of creatures over spells in general.
This isn't rocket science. He said they're not going to print them -today-. He's not talking about a year ago. He's not talking about Scars of Mirrodin. He's talking about post-Avacyn Restored and that means M13 and Return to Ravnica block.
He said they would never print Signets nowadays. You read the same quote I did. That means -exactly- what it means. Nowadays--in the context of that article--does include Return to Ravnica.
You have new art. Whoop-de-do. They print new art for cards they don't plan to put in standard-legal sets all the time. They do it for Vault, for Commander, for Planechase, for Duel Decks. All. The. Time.
And two of those pieces of art are showing up in Duel Decks! It's like I'm right!
But regardless.
Pithing Needle is 233. (Unless there's a misprint on MTGDaily, that's not a 1)
Tablet of the Guilds is 235.
There is no room for Rakdos Signet and Selesnya Signet. Case. Is. Closed.
M11->Scars of Mirrodin->Mirrodin Beseiged->New Phyrexia->M12->Innistrad (wherein we find Snapcaster)->Dark Ascension->Avacyn Restored(Wherein we find Cavern of Souls)->M13->Return to Ravnica.
Okay?
That means that the article was printed AFTER M12. AFTER Scars. AFTER Innistrad. It was printed after these sets were, and AFTER Snapcaster Mage. With me so far?
In that article, it states that Mana Leak belongs in the past.
When is M12? In the past (relative to that article).
Where is Scars of Mirrodin? In the past.
Where is everything he stated was a relic of the past? In the past.
What sets were in development when that article was written?
M13 and RtR.
Notice: No mana leak in M13. In fact, notice: Cheap counters are ramped WAY the hell back.
So what if they'd print X or Y in M11 or M12? He's talking about M13-era standard. He's talking about stuff bring printed given what they know of the game with Avacyn Restored. Who cares what's in M12? It's rotating out in the standard that he's a developer for--he's developing and talking about a standard with Innistrad block, M13, and Return to Ravnica block.
That means if he says that there's no signets, you aren't going to see Signets in Innistrad block, M13, or Return to Ravnica block, because they don't fit their vision of power level for that block, or the pushing of creatures over spells in general.
This isn't rocket science. He said they're not going to print them -today-. He's not talking about a year ago. He's not talking about Scars of Mirrodin. He's talking about post-Avacyn Restored and that means M13 and Return to Ravnica block.
He said they would never print Signets nowadays. You read the same quote I did. That means -exactly- what it means. Nowadays--in the context of that article--does include Return to Ravnica.
You have new art. Whoop-de-do. They print new art for cards they don't plan to put in standard-legal sets all the time. They do it for Vault, for Commander, for Planechase, for Duel Decks. All. The. Time.
And two of those pieces of art are showing up in Duel Decks! It's like I'm right!
But regardless.
Pithing Needle is 233. (Unless there's a misprint on MTGDaily, that's not a 1)
Tablet of the Guilds is 235.
There is no room for Rakdos Signet and Selesnya Signet. Case. Is. Closed.
Pithing Needle is 231. And he said modern development standards. Those were established prior to M11 even. Just stop.
Pithing Needle is 231. And he said modern development standards. Those were established prior to M11 even. Just stop.
Sorry mate, this discussion will advance no further like this. You claim I am lying that they said they'd never reprint the signets in today's environment when I quoted them saying they'd never reprint it. I mean look, the art on the Wizards site shows it's a 3, not a 1. I don't know what else to say.
You then made a strawman claiming that I am arguing that they'd not reprint Mana Leak in M12 because of that article. I did not say that. I said that article is about what they'd print post-Avacyn Restored which is M13 and Return to Ravnica.
Because that's when that article was printed. Avacyn Restored. That context is extremely important and without it the entire article doesn't make any sense.
I suggest you go back and read it and try to put it into the context of 'It's spoiling a card in the most recently printed Expert Set, just before a Core Set that was printed without Mana Leak or any two casting cost universal counter'. It actually shows what they're thinking -today- and it does not reflect what they thought a year ago, before they printed Snapcaster Mage and before they saw what that card does to the environment.
Remember how time works? First they printed M12 with mana leak, then they printed Snapcaster Mage, then they went 'Wait, this is not good for the environment', then they put out that article with Cavern of Souls. It did NOT go 'Let's print Cavern of Souls, then put Mana Leak in M12!'
They are not time travellers. You are stating unreasonable claims and making unreasonable statements, and attempting to misrepresent what I said to fix your hopes and dreams.
There are NO signets in Return to Ravnica. They said they aren't printing them, and you need to accept that. The art is for casual products like Commander's Arsenel, where it makes a LOT of sense.
You said they might want it for Commander... why not just PRINT them in Commander!?!
I mean look, the art on the Wizards site shows it's a 3, not a 1. I don't know what else to say.
You can't say that for certain. It looks like a 1 to me and about just as many people seem to agree as disagree about that. The bottom line is that it is unclear and we can't be sure. When I zoom with just my browser to about 250 percent, the last digit in the number sure does not look like the one that comes before it (which we know to be a 3). It looks more like a 1.
You can't say that for certain. It looks like a 1 to me and about just as many people seem to agree as disagree about that. The bottom line is that it is unclear and we can't be sure. When I zoom with just my browser to about 250 percent, the last digit in the number sure does not look like the one that comes before it (which we know to be a 3). It looks more like a 1.
I guess we will see.
Still, even if it's a 1, that still doesn't negate the main argument--that they said they won't in an article concurrent to the development of RtR.
If that's the case, there's room for a Rakdos and Selesnya artifact but it's still not going to be a signet because that article is topical and the rebuttals are nonsense about sets that are not.
Sorry mate, this discussion will advance no further like this. You claim I am lying that they said they'd never reprint the signets in today's environment when I quoted them saying they'd never reprint it.
Because they didn't say that. One developer said they would never print signets today. There is a difference between print and reprint.
You then made a strawman claiming that I am arguing that they'd not reprint Mana Leak in M12 because of that article. I did not say that. I said that article is about what they'd print post-Avacyn Restored which is M13 and Return to Ravnica.
Because that's when that article was printed. Avacyn Restored. That context is extremely important and without it the entire article doesn't make any sense.
That's actually not the argument he is making. He's saying that the sentiments expressed in that article were concerning a new design philosophy which started long before the actual writing of the article, and that the point the article is making therefore must be about cards they would print now, not cards that they would reprint now.
I suggest you go back and read it and try to put it into the context of 'It's spoiling a card in the most recently printed Expert Set, just before a Core Set that was printed without Mana Leak or any two casting cost universal counter'. It actually shows what they're thinking -today- and it does not reflect what they thought a year ago, before they printed Snapcaster Mage and before they saw what that card does to the environment.
Remember how time works? First they printed M12 with mana leak, then they printed Snapcaster Mage, then they went 'Wait, this is not good for the environment', then they put out that article with Cavern of Souls. It did NOT go 'Let's print Cavern of Souls, then put Mana Leak in M12!'
They are not time travellers. You are stating unreasonable claims and making unreasonable statements, and attempting to misrepresent what I said to fix your hopes and dreams.
Wait, do you actually believe they didn't think mana leak was overpowered prior to the printing of snapcaster mage? You know mana leak hadn't been in standard since 9th edition before it got reprinted in M11, right? Just like Lightning Bolt in M10, Mana leak was one of the cards they thought would be safe to reprint to give the long-time players something to get all nostalgic over, and then would rotate out again. That's why it didn't come back, not because snapcaster mage made them realize it was too good. They knew that already.
There are NO signets in Return to Ravnica. They said they aren't printing them, and you need to accept that.
No they didn't, and you need to accept that. What was said was that the signets are of a power level they would be uncomfortable printing today. Lightning Bolt in M10 is evidence that they occasionally reprint cards despite them being of a power level they would be uncomfortable with printing.
The art is for casual products like Commander's Arsenel, where it makes a LOT of sense.
You said they might want it for Commander... why not just PRINT them in Commander!?![/QUOTE]
If that is the case, then why was the art previewed for Return to Ravnica and not for Commander's Arsenal?
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
If that's the case, there's room for a Rakdos and Selesnya artifact but it's still not going to be a signet because that article is topical and the rebuttals are nonsense about sets that are not.
Paraphrase, "so they might fit, but it doesn't matter because one member of RnD said they shouldn't be reprinted and RnD never changes their minds as they develop sets."
But let's also add, "as an additional note, despite the fact that you continue to bring up a valid arguement regarding the art in question I'm not going to comment on how that could possible fit into my explanation of why they won't reprint the signets. Mainly because I have no real way of disputing your claim with the evidence you've back it with."
Take some deep breathes, evaluate the claims he is making, and then address them instead of stating over and over that there is one article where on RnD member stated they weren't good for the game. (was he even the lead designer, maybe he and lead designer disagree on the matter) Everyone knows your arguement by now and realizes that you have a masterful grasp on the order that current sets were printed in.(congratulations)
Edit - actually he didn't even say they shouldn't be reprinted, he said they wouldn't be printed. Meaning they don't make cards like that any more so they would have never been created now. Nothing referring to reprinting them. Mana leak is an example of such a card.
Still, even if it's a 1, that still doesn't negate the main argument--that they said they won't in an article concurrent to the development of RtR.
No that doesn't negate it. I just had to point it out because if it is a 3 it is absolute proof of your point.
The evidence we have that they will be in is pretty good as is your evidence. That's why the discussion goes nowhere. At the end I think Mr. Hill's statements against the signets were much weaker than past statements WOTC employees have made against reprinting a card that they go on to print in the very next set.
It should be clear, without a shadow of a doubt, that the signets are being reprinted. The Golgari and Izzet signets were printed in the duel decks with new art that's obviously part of a ten card cycle. Those ten art pieces are confirmed to be printed on cards in the Return to Ravnica block. 1+1=2
I do hope you like crow, DracoSuave, because when the full spoiler is released (if not before) you will be having a large portion.
I felt a great disturbance in the force, like a thousand decks across several formats suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has been printed
It should be clear, without a shadow of a doubt, that the signets are being reprinted. The Golgari and Izzet signets were printed in the duel decks with new art that's obviously part of a ten card cycle. Those ten art pieces are confirmed to be printed on cards in the Return to Ravnica block. 1+1=2
I do hope you like crow, DracoSuave, because when the full spoiler is released (if not before) you will be having a large portion.
We have no such confirmation.
We have confirmed the following:
It is Ravnica art.
It is new.
Two Signets have been reprinted in casual products.
They are never reprinting signets, remand, force spike, or mana leak given the mentality of R&D during the development of RtR.
Those are ALL confirmed.
We also know that Ravnica IS the best block they've ever made. They're pulling out all the stops in marketing this, making sure that there's Ravnica-flavored stuff in the core set, as well as in Duels of the Plainswalkers, etc.
We KNOW they're coming out with Commander's Arsenal, and the last Commander set used gold legendary creatures--there's no reason to believe that they'll go mono for Commander 2. Which means they'll go gold again... and signets are -very- appropriate to print in Commander casual sets to make them available to casuals.
This also thematicly ties the Commander set in with Ravnica, meaning that people who like the Commander set will be inclined to buy Ravnica, and vice versa. Printing new art for old Ravnica staples (read: Signets) makes absolute sense to support the product, and sell it.
They DO commission new art for these casual sets very often, and if they're trying to push Ravnica as more than just an expert set, this is one way to do it.
Not to mention if they ARE printing them in Commander, because the guild insignias have changed (some more drasticly than others) then they'd have to change the signets to match simply to make them recognizable to players whose first exposure to Ravnica is RtR and not the original set.
This makes sense and perfectly fits what we already DO know and HAVE confirmed, while at the same time, fits the most recent information we have about design and development. Why else would he mention a bunch of Ravnica staples would never get reprinted in todays magic after Return to Ravnica got announced, if not to say 'Don't get your hopes up. Remand, Compulsive REsearch, and the Signets are out.'
So the answer is, YES, they are going to reprint signets, and NO, it is not going to be in block.
It is Ravnica art confirmed to be printed on cards in the new block Return to Ravnica.
It is new.
Two Signets have been reprinted in casual products with the RtR art.
They are never printing signets, remand, force spike, or mana leak given the mentality of one member of R&D during the development of RtR.
Those are ALL confirmed.
Fixed. When arguing you point it's important to state facts correctly. Puting your personal twist on them to make them better for your argument make you look less credible.
Feel free to tell me yours!
1
guild signet
2, T: Add CD to your mana pool
It looks to me and some others, however, that needle is actually 233, which would rule out signets.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
It's not that they're in the duel deck, it's that the art used was spoiled among a plethora of other confirmed RTR art, along with art that is quite apparently for the other 8 signets.
EDIT: Also, as many have already said, if they're doing signets, it will be a straight reprint. They're comparable in power to the mana myr and Sphere of the Suns. Sure, sphere could run out of counters, but it was printed alongside proliferate. They are nowhere near as powerful as people seem to be remembering. We're heading toward a standard that thusfar has no two mana counterspells. Go ahead, keep talking about how ridiculous they were alongside Remand. That was then, this is now.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
Could be for promo cards.
Whereas they've said 'No, signets are not appropriate for today's environment.' Sorry, no signets.
Where? Where did "they" say this? It's unlikely that they'd preview art for the signets that's among art exclusively for RTR and Gatecrash.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
Many times, it's been quoted in similiar 'Where's muh Signets/Remands/Compulsive Research/Really good Ravnica Card' threads many times, but here's the link for you.
"You guys are power creeping so hard."
"Hmm. I don't think we are. After all, there are all kinds of spells that we would never print nowadays that ran rampant in old environments, such as Compulsive Research, Force Spike, Remand, 'Signets,' etc."
Now, you might say 'Oh but they could change their mind' but this was the article revealing Cavern of Souls. That means it's during the reveal of a card while Return to Ravnica was in development, written BY one of RTR's developers.
'Oh but Zac Hill doesn't work there any more so they could have changed things!'
He left a month ago. I REALLY doubt they radically changed the development of RTR while it was ALREADY SENT TO THE PRINTERS.
No. You will NOT see Signets in RTR. They said so. The evidence for this is OVERWHELMING. There's no room in the numbering FOR five signets.
It is NOT happening.
That art is probably for promo cards or for mana-fixing in future casual products like Dual Decks, etc, or possibly for Duels of the Planeswalkers.
But it is NOT for anything standard-legal.
There've been a few articles where they noted that signets were a bit too strong in the artifact mana fix and accel category to be printed again.
Basically, they make it a little too easy to put amazing mana fix into any deck, and they make green mana fix totally useless.
No. They used the art for the signets in MTGO and previewed the same are for rtr. They are not going to use the art on the signets and then the same art on some different promo card.
Someone from WOTC said signets were not a card they would print today. They never said they would not reprint them. Even so, they have said in the past they wouldn't reprint things like lightning bolt, and yet they did.
Signets will be here in RTR but mainly because the art they said will be in rtr has already shown up on two signets.
I love how you raged against arguments I didn't make, yet completely ignored the valid argument I did make.
Also, the spoiler mistakenly has Pithing Needle at 233 instead of 231. There's plenty of room for the signets.
To argue against using that article as any sort of proof: sure, Zac Hill had say in making these sets, and what he said in the article is a view likely shared by more than a few of the members making Magic. That said, they brought back lightning bolt in M10 and again in M11, printed Baneslayer Angel and the titans twice each, and brought back Mana Leak in M11, and most recently they've brought back the shocklands. They aren't printing signets outside of a return to ravnica just like they didn't print ridiculous dual lands in shards, but this is an occassion where signets are very likely to return. They put as many as they could in each commander deck, and Wizards are huge fans of EDH. They'd no doubt be happy to help noobs get their hands on some signets. They've also made it a point in one of the articles this week to mention that we're entering a standard with very little in the way of cheap counterspells. That takes away a lot of the advantage that signets had last time around, and shows that they've carefully crafted an environment in which signets would be welcome to return.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
That's great and all, but this article is from Avacyn Restored, and thus what they USED TO PRINT is not relevant to what they are printing NOW. It's a -recent- article. It's less than a year old.
And what's important is that it dates from when Return to Ravnica was in -development- and written by one of Return to Ravnica's developers.
In other words, he wrote that WHILE DEVELOPING RTR.
So, yes, that's a VERY relevant statement as to what's being done in RTR. If they had any plan on printing signets in RtR, then someone working on that set wouldn't have said that they would not print signets in today's Magic, while admitting those same cards were format defining in years past.
Notice: They don't print Mana Leak any more. Exactly as he said.
They aren't printing signets IN Return to Ravnica either.
If they want to have the paper in print for Commander, they could simply print them in Commander's Arsenel. Keeps them out of Standard and Limited, which is absolutely fine.
Unrelated things are unrelated.
It isn't countermagic that is stopping them from printing signets--it's having 10 card slots in limited taken up by colorless non-creature mana ramp that allows one to splash anything you want.
You need to face facts. They said they aren't printing signets, they said it very recently, they said it during the development of the set you are claiming they belong in, and it was ALL said by one of the developers of that set.
Your evidence is 'They have new art.'
My evidence is 'The developer of the set said no.'
Which is more compelling?
Fixed.
Also, I didn't just argue new art. The new art was spoiled amongst other confirmed RTR and Gatecrash art. My argument is far more compelling when taken in context.
I need to face facts? You need to face the fact that they have not once said they won't reprint the signets. Stop blatantly lying.
By the way, here's a little gem from that same article.
"One of the problems is that Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules. Similar to why the Swords are so powerful—their costs were locked in before people really understood how to price Equipment—Mana Leak is a relic of a bygone era."
By your logic, they would never reprint Mana Leak in M12 and would never finish out the swords cycle in Scars block. But they did.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
I could see them getting reprinted for the exact reason the person you're raging against said. They have ten pieces of art depicting the guild's insignias that are confirmed to be art for RtR and GtC (not sure what it's abbreviation is). 2 of them were used on their respective signets in in the duels decks. That leaves you with two options.
1) they are being reprinted in this block and an RnD member said one thing in an article that ended up being different.
2) they are not being reprinted, and wizards used the same art on two different cards.
Since scenario one has happened before and scenario two has never happened in the history of the game it would appear to me as though the reprinting of the signets would be very likely.
Edit - probably should clarify that the same art has never been used twice outside of print run errors (I.e. revised serendib efreet). So I guess your argument should be something like "the only reason they have the same pictures is because there was a mix up with the printing and they got accidentally slipped in 2 RtR arts instead of the actual arts. oddly enough The art fit the original art description perfectly despite being commissioned for a completely different card that is clearly also a 10 card cycle depicting the guild's insignias." which seems highly unlikely.
Do you understand how time works?
Here's the timeline. Follow along.
M11->Scars of Mirrodin->Mirrodin Beseiged->New Phyrexia->M12->Innistrad (wherein we find Snapcaster)->Dark Ascension->Avacyn Restored(Wherein we find Cavern of Souls)->M13->Return to Ravnica.
Okay?
That means that the article was printed AFTER M12. AFTER Scars. AFTER Innistrad. It was printed after these sets were, and AFTER Snapcaster Mage. With me so far?
In that article, it states that Mana Leak belongs in the past.
When is M12? In the past (relative to that article).
Where is Scars of Mirrodin? In the past.
Where is everything he stated was a relic of the past? In the past.
What sets were in development when that article was written?
M13 and RtR.
Notice: No mana leak in M13. In fact, notice: Cheap counters are ramped WAY the hell back.
So what if they'd print X or Y in M11 or M12? He's talking about M13-era standard. He's talking about stuff bring printed given what they know of the game with Avacyn Restored. Who cares what's in M12? It's rotating out in the standard that he's a developer for--he's developing and talking about a standard with Innistrad block, M13, and Return to Ravnica block.
That means if he says that there's no signets, you aren't going to see Signets in Innistrad block, M13, or Return to Ravnica block, because they don't fit their vision of power level for that block, or the pushing of creatures over spells in general.
This isn't rocket science. He said they're not going to print them -today-. He's not talking about a year ago. He's not talking about Scars of Mirrodin. He's talking about post-Avacyn Restored and that means M13 and Return to Ravnica block.
He said they would never print Signets nowadays. You read the same quote I did. That means -exactly- what it means. Nowadays--in the context of that article--does include Return to Ravnica.
You have new art. Whoop-de-do. They print new art for cards they don't plan to put in standard-legal sets all the time. They do it for Vault, for Commander, for Planechase, for Duel Decks. All. The. Time.
And two of those pieces of art are showing up in Duel Decks! It's like I'm right!
But regardless.
Pithing Needle is 233. (Unless there's a misprint on MTGDaily, that's not a 1)
Tablet of the Guilds is 235.
There is no room for Rakdos Signet and Selesnya Signet. Case. Is. Closed.
Pithing Needle is 231. And he said modern development standards. Those were established prior to M11 even. Just stop.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
Sorry mate, this discussion will advance no further like this. You claim I am lying that they said they'd never reprint the signets in today's environment when I quoted them saying they'd never reprint it. I mean look, the art on the Wizards site shows it's a 3, not a 1. I don't know what else to say.
You then made a strawman claiming that I am arguing that they'd not reprint Mana Leak in M12 because of that article. I did not say that. I said that article is about what they'd print post-Avacyn Restored which is M13 and Return to Ravnica.
Because that's when that article was printed. Avacyn Restored. That context is extremely important and without it the entire article doesn't make any sense.
I suggest you go back and read it and try to put it into the context of 'It's spoiling a card in the most recently printed Expert Set, just before a Core Set that was printed without Mana Leak or any two casting cost universal counter'. It actually shows what they're thinking -today- and it does not reflect what they thought a year ago, before they printed Snapcaster Mage and before they saw what that card does to the environment.
Remember how time works? First they printed M12 with mana leak, then they printed Snapcaster Mage, then they went 'Wait, this is not good for the environment', then they put out that article with Cavern of Souls. It did NOT go 'Let's print Cavern of Souls, then put Mana Leak in M12!'
They are not time travellers. You are stating unreasonable claims and making unreasonable statements, and attempting to misrepresent what I said to fix your hopes and dreams.
There are NO signets in Return to Ravnica. They said they aren't printing them, and you need to accept that. The art is for casual products like Commander's Arsenel, where it makes a LOT of sense.
You said they might want it for Commander... why not just PRINT them in Commander!?!
You can't say that for certain. It looks like a 1 to me and about just as many people seem to agree as disagree about that. The bottom line is that it is unclear and we can't be sure. When I zoom with just my browser to about 250 percent, the last digit in the number sure does not look like the one that comes before it (which we know to be a 3). It looks more like a 1.
I guess we will see.
Still, even if it's a 1, that still doesn't negate the main argument--that they said they won't in an article concurrent to the development of RtR.
If that's the case, there's room for a Rakdos and Selesnya artifact but it's still not going to be a signet because that article is topical and the rebuttals are nonsense about sets that are not.
Because they didn't say that. One developer said they would never print signets today. There is a difference between print and reprint.
That's actually not the argument he is making. He's saying that the sentiments expressed in that article were concerning a new design philosophy which started long before the actual writing of the article, and that the point the article is making therefore must be about cards they would print now, not cards that they would reprint now.
Wait, do you actually believe they didn't think mana leak was overpowered prior to the printing of snapcaster mage? You know mana leak hadn't been in standard since 9th edition before it got reprinted in M11, right? Just like Lightning Bolt in M10, Mana leak was one of the cards they thought would be safe to reprint to give the long-time players something to get all nostalgic over, and then would rotate out again. That's why it didn't come back, not because snapcaster mage made them realize it was too good. They knew that already.
No they didn't, and you need to accept that. What was said was that the signets are of a power level they would be uncomfortable printing today. Lightning Bolt in M10 is evidence that they occasionally reprint cards despite them being of a power level they would be uncomfortable with printing.
You said they might want it for Commander... why not just PRINT them in Commander!?![/QUOTE]
If that is the case, then why was the art previewed for Return to Ravnica and not for Commander's Arsenal?
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Paraphrase, "so they might fit, but it doesn't matter because one member of RnD said they shouldn't be reprinted and RnD never changes their minds as they develop sets."
But let's also add, "as an additional note, despite the fact that you continue to bring up a valid arguement regarding the art in question I'm not going to comment on how that could possible fit into my explanation of why they won't reprint the signets. Mainly because I have no real way of disputing your claim with the evidence you've back it with."
Take some deep breathes, evaluate the claims he is making, and then address them instead of stating over and over that there is one article where on RnD member stated they weren't good for the game. (was he even the lead designer, maybe he and lead designer disagree on the matter) Everyone knows your arguement by now and realizes that you have a masterful grasp on the order that current sets were printed in.(congratulations)
Edit - actually he didn't even say they shouldn't be reprinted, he said they wouldn't be printed. Meaning they don't make cards like that any more so they would have never been created now. Nothing referring to reprinting them. Mana leak is an example of such a card.
No that doesn't negate it. I just had to point it out because if it is a 3 it is absolute proof of your point.
The evidence we have that they will be in is pretty good as is your evidence. That's why the discussion goes nowhere. At the end I think Mr. Hill's statements against the signets were much weaker than past statements WOTC employees have made against reprinting a card that they go on to print in the very next set.
I do hope you like crow, DracoSuave, because when the full spoiler is released (if not before) you will be having a large portion.
We have no such confirmation.
We have confirmed the following:
It is Ravnica art.
It is new.
Two Signets have been reprinted in casual products.
They are never reprinting signets, remand, force spike, or mana leak given the mentality of R&D during the development of RtR.
Those are ALL confirmed.
We also know that Ravnica IS the best block they've ever made. They're pulling out all the stops in marketing this, making sure that there's Ravnica-flavored stuff in the core set, as well as in Duels of the Plainswalkers, etc.
We KNOW they're coming out with Commander's Arsenal, and the last Commander set used gold legendary creatures--there's no reason to believe that they'll go mono for Commander 2. Which means they'll go gold again... and signets are -very- appropriate to print in Commander casual sets to make them available to casuals.
This also thematicly ties the Commander set in with Ravnica, meaning that people who like the Commander set will be inclined to buy Ravnica, and vice versa. Printing new art for old Ravnica staples (read: Signets) makes absolute sense to support the product, and sell it.
They DO commission new art for these casual sets very often, and if they're trying to push Ravnica as more than just an expert set, this is one way to do it.
Not to mention if they ARE printing them in Commander, because the guild insignias have changed (some more drasticly than others) then they'd have to change the signets to match simply to make them recognizable to players whose first exposure to Ravnica is RtR and not the original set.
This makes sense and perfectly fits what we already DO know and HAVE confirmed, while at the same time, fits the most recent information we have about design and development. Why else would he mention a bunch of Ravnica staples would never get reprinted in todays magic after Return to Ravnica got announced, if not to say 'Don't get your hopes up. Remand, Compulsive REsearch, and the Signets are out.'
So the answer is, YES, they are going to reprint signets, and NO, it is not going to be in block.
You are significantly overstating your case.
Fixed. When arguing you point it's important to state facts correctly. Puting your personal twist on them to make them better for your argument make you look less credible.