There is. In 2+ color decks in early turns. Like, uh, every blue-based deck now in standart.
With a power card like counterspell you don't need to, uh, run three colors. It effectively takes care of the need to do that, and I repeat; No deck that runs this card would have a mana base unstable enough to be unable to cast it by turn two 90% of the time.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
With a power card like counterspell you don't need to, uh, run three colors. It effectively takes care of the need to do that, and I repeat; No deck that runs this card would have a mana base unstable enough to be unable to cast it by turn two 90% of the time.
It's still not colorless, and has no color. That's a paradox. So either you're a Zen master or an idiot, I'll assume the Zen master for sake of argument. This card will have no paradoxes because it has a clear paradox. Deep stuff man.
Early game mana leak is just like counterspell in the sense that your opponent is too stupid to throw bait spells out so they can resolve their real threats past turn three. With counterspell you don't need to do that because it counters everything that isn't uncounterable/split second. There's really no need debating it. If counterspell were legal anything with islands and desired to run control magic would use counterspell.
Sure, point taken. But, would the deck shift to a heavier blue majority if Counterspell came back? I'm thinking it would. What is better? Counterspell or Liliana? Counterspell or Sorin? Counterspell or any other two cmc card that the deck could run? Answer = Counterspell. And we're talking about Mana Leak going. They wouldn't have the option to play Mana Leak unless they made both Leak and Counterspell legal at the same time.
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Early game mana leak is just like counterspell in the sense that your opponent is too stupid to throw bait spells out so they can resolve their real threats past turn three. With counterspell you don't need to do that because it counters everything that isn't uncounterable/split second. There's really no need debating it. If counterspell were legal anything with islands and desired to run control magic would use counterspell.
And people would throw bait spells against counterspell the same way.
The only difference is you can outwait the leak instead of ramming spells into it. But waiting against fast delver beats or ultimate end game UB equals to losing.
if nobody has noticed i made a thread about this. now this is what a couple people have said that i agree 100% with.
someone made an argument that mana leak needs to go because we had our run. which is true. but they also said that during zen block etc that we didnt really have a big "counter spell". Which is 100% and thats why blue saw barely any competitive play. Jund ruled everyones lives. Is that what people want? A brainless, overpowered deck that makes up 80% of the meta just because they dont want their spells to get countered? You do realize that if we had viable counters during the reign of Jund that Jund wouldnt of made it as far as it did right? Think about that.
80% of your meta is the same deck. That isnt fun at ALL. What people dont understand is that if you take from blue their key element its exactly whats going to happen. So do you guys wanna be forced to play something that you dont want to? Is that what you guys want? Guys....Jace, the Mind Sculptor wasnt even ENOUGH for that time....think about THAT one.
I'm not at ALL saying i want a reprint of Mana Leak. IDC really. I was around for all the other times it saw standard play. Thats not the issue. The issue is taking away a key element to help Blue survive. I know, i know...Delver. Sure, we got a creature that dies to basicallly everything you throw at it if people were to think about it. A Galvanic Blast eats a delver for breakfast.
Taking away efficient counters from Blue is like taking burn away from Red...it just doesnt seem right. Now if we DO get a Counterspell reprint, then sure, thats fine and dandy, we can make due with the not so splashable mana cost, but at least we'd have something outside of Vapor Snag to deal with big bombs like titans, elesh, and the other big ol fatties that havent been released yet. I dunno, this is just my 2 cents. If it gets re-printed, it gets re-printed. If they try and push Cancel on us...then kudos everyone, you took blue out of the pie. Cause we wont really have ANY way to deal with big threats before we die.
Besides...it could of been worse....they could of re-printed Mana Drain instead of Mana Leak...remember that lol
So - if Mana Leak is too good, make sense has maybe this:
UU - Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3. If he or she does, untap up to two lands (or weaker version - up to two Islands).
so wait....what your saying is give us a 2 cmc counter spell to where if they DONT pay, you get that mana right back? yeahhhhh not gonna happen lol. thats better than mana leak.
Mana Leak is too good, yes half the game it's merely a pain but in the early game it's as good as good old CS but for the discounted price of 1U.
I'm hoping to see Remand back now that we're going back to Rav. Great for tempo, but doesn't quite leave that bitter taste in the newer player/countered player's mouth (they get to try again next turn).
Will with the new land out that makes your creatures uncounterable, control is dead anyway.
thats not true at all...thats actually quite ignorant to say. so i'll be here to drink your tears when you come back all like "OMGZ GUYZ!! CONTROL JUST DOMINATED MY DECK!! BUT I RAN 4 OF THOSE NEW LANDZ!!!"
I'm hoping to see Remand back now that we're going back to Rav. Great for tempo, but doesn't quite leave that bitter taste in the newer player/countered player's mouth (they get to try again next turn).
actually that statement is exactly what is wrong with players. You do realize that there is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between me countering your creature and me doom blading your creature as soon as it hits the field right? its all psychological. you just want that feeling of accomplishment of it hitting the board. thats all. at the end of the day, the same thing happened, your creature didnt stick.
if nobody has noticed i made a thread about this. now this is what a couple people have said that i agree 100% with.
someone made an argument that mana leak needs to go because we had our run. which is true. but they also said that during zen block etc that we didnt really have a big "counter spell". Which is 100% and thats why blue saw barely any competitive play. Jund ruled everyones lives. Is that what people want? A brainless, overpowered deck that makes up 80% of the meta just because they dont want their spells to get countered? You do realize that if we had viable counters during the reign of Jund that Jund wouldnt of made it as far as it did right? Think about that.
80% of your meta is the same deck. That isnt fun at ALL. What people dont understand is that if you take from blue their key element its exactly whats going to happen. So do you guys wanna be forced to play something that you dont want to? Is that what you guys want? Guys....Jace, the Mind Sculptor wasnt even ENOUGH for that time....think about THAT one.
I'm not at ALL saying i want a reprint of Mana Leak. IDC really. I was around for all the other times it saw standard play. Thats not the issue. The issue is taking away a key element to help Blue survive. I know, i know...Delver. Sure, we got a creature that dies to basicallly everything you throw at it if people were to think about it. A Galvanic Blast eats a delver for breakfast.
Taking away efficient counters from Blue is like taking burn away from Red...it just doesnt seem right. Now if we DO get a Counterspell reprint, then sure, thats fine and dandy, we can make due with the not so splashable mana cost, but at least we'd have something outside of Vapor Snag to deal with big bombs like titans, elesh, and the other big ol fatties that havent been released yet. I dunno, this is just my 2 cents. If it gets re-printed, it gets re-printed. If they try and push Cancel on us...then kudos everyone, you took blue out of the pie. Cause we wont really have ANY way to deal with big threats before we die.
Besides...it could of been worse....they could of re-printed Mana Drain instead of Mana Leak...remember that lol
We have no reason to believe that there won't be some kind of replacement for Leak. Calm down, man, you're over reacting. LOL. Yes, they appear to be going on an anti-control crusade. Yes, control players such as myself are extremely unhappy. But, at this point we don't know what they're really planning. Ravnica could be a control block like Innistrad is a creature block. Just relax. And just so you know there's a difference between Doom Blading a creature at the end of the turn instead of countering it. Y'know, it doesn't get it's super mega powerful splashy ETB like the Titan's have >_>
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
actually that statement is exactly what is wrong with players. You do realize that there is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between me countering your creature and me doom blading your creature as soon as it hits the field right? its all psychological. you just want that feeling of accomplishment of it hitting the board. thats all. at the end of the day, the same thing happened, your creature didnt stick.
Because people can stop their gut instincts and psychology. You realise its psychological, so you should realise how pointless it is to fight it.
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If you're having creature problems I feel bad for you son
You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
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We have no reason to believe that there won't be some kind of replacement for Leak. Calm down, man, you're over reacting. LOL. Yes, they appear to be going on an anti-control crusade. Yes, control players such as myself are extremely unhappy. But, at this point we don't know what they're really planning. Ravnica could be a control block like Innistrad is a creature block. Just relax. And just so you know there's a difference between Doom Blading a creature at the end of the turn instead of countering it. Y'know, it doesn't get it's super mega powerful splashy ETB like the Titan's have >_>
titans are rotating ;-) lol. but what i was pointing out is there is no difference in the destruction portion of the creature. and i'm not really freaking out because of "control", i'm freaking out because they are kicking blue in the teeth. its obvious lol.
Because people can stop their gut instincts and psychology. You realise its psychological, so you should realise how pointless it is to fight it.
your right. its like telling a crack addict he's addicted to crack. he'll deny it till the sky falls but at the end of the day he's going to try and sell you his TV for crack
titans are rotating ;-) lol. but what i was pointing out is there is no difference in the destruction portion of the creature. and i'm not really freaking out because of "control", i'm freaking out because they are kicking blue in the teeth. its obvious lol.
Hex proof? Indestructible? Protection from X? Blinking? Non creature spells?
actually that statement is exactly what is wrong with players. You do realize that there is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between me countering your creature and me doom blading your creature as soon as it hits the field right? its all psychological. you just want that feeling of accomplishment of it hitting the board. thats all. at the end of the day, the same thing happened, your creature didnt stick.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Mana Leak wasn't an issue until Snapcaster Mage came along. I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and say Mana Leak isn't a powerful card. It is. But Blue needs an unconditional soft counter at CMC 2. When it doesn't have it, it folds to aggro every time.
Blue did pretty well during the Lorwyn/Shards Standard and there wasn't a 2 mana soft counter then.
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Getting into Modern if you have any commons/uncommons you want to unload for cheap (everything before Zendikar needed). My trade list.
This article tells me that Wizards plans on removing the Titans and Leak. Gotta say it is about time.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
If you're bothered by the apparent movement to nerf counterspells (and I know I am) I'd suggest voicing your displeasure with Wizards. Because, if you don't, they're going to just keep moving Standard in the direction of counters not being part of the game. I don't think those of us who are big fans of countermagic are ever going to get anything like having Counterspell back, but if there's a strong backlash to Cavern of Souls and the potential lack of a two-mana counter in M13, I doubt it will go ignored in future sets.
It's obvious that Wizards has been getting an earful from players who don't like having their spells countered. Maybe they need more feedback from the other side of the argument.
Blue did pretty well during the Lorwyn/Shards Standard and there wasn't a 2 mana soft counter then.
Spellstutter Sprite was kind of it.
As someone who has played since Magic's early days, and run a cube with things like Mana Drain, Counterspell, Mana Leak, Memory Lapse and Forbid, I laugh at people saying that Mana Leak is too strong. I remember the ****storm of whining when Counterspell was cut from the core set and it was replaced with Mana Leak.
To be fair though, I'd like for them to print another playable counterspell variant, so I can cube with it. The only good new counterspells printed in the Modern era have been Condescend, Remand and Cryptic Command.
The main problem with Counters in general is how hard it is to properly cost it. Counterspell was obviously too strong at UU, but Cancel costs just 1 more and rarely sees play. I think Mana Leak has the same problem. A Leak costing 2U, or one that costs 1U unless the player pays 2 would be weak again.
I think the main reason for this problem is how lazy WotC is designing new counters. The non-reprinting of Mana Leak in M13 will hopefully make them start working again in counterspells in general to make they relevant again, but not overpowered.
Finally, this is a great change, just having the dev team REALIZE that Mana Leak is an issue.
Weird. As I read it, I thought it would mean that mana leak is still in M13. Why print a hate card for a soon-to-rotate card? It's a bit weird that the cavern is a solution to snapcaster as they will instead doom blade or vapor snag whatver you play.
What kind of dev is that? Snapcaster a problem? Let's print an eternal staple rare that will will bend every single environment it's in. Yeah, that's the ticket...
[card=Dismal Failure]"Two magi could trade spells all day and never crown a victor.
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you." —Venser[/card]
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With a power card like counterspell you don't need to, uh, run three colors. It effectively takes care of the need to do that, and I repeat; No deck that runs this card would have a mana base unstable enough to be unable to cast it by turn two 90% of the time.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Now if game goes on long, surely counterspell is better. But except control mirrors games don't go long in current standart.
That's not true. For instance, suppose that in standard, Counterspell suddenly becomes legal. Decks like Esper Walkers will probably still stick to Mana Leaks, since it is significantly tougher for you to go Counterspell-> Liliana of the Veil / Lingering Souls->Day of Judgement / Sorin, Lord of Innistrad / Snapcaster Mage + Counterspell.
The only colour with a 99/99
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Sure, point taken. But, would the deck shift to a heavier blue majority if Counterspell came back? I'm thinking it would. What is better? Counterspell or Liliana? Counterspell or Sorin? Counterspell or any other two cmc card that the deck could run? Answer = Counterspell. And we're talking about Mana Leak going. They wouldn't have the option to play Mana Leak unless they made both Leak and Counterspell legal at the same time.
Double post merged. -viper
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
And people would throw bait spells against counterspell the same way.
The only difference is you can outwait the leak instead of ramming spells into it. But waiting against fast delver beats or ultimate end game UB equals to losing.
someone made an argument that mana leak needs to go because we had our run. which is true. but they also said that during zen block etc that we didnt really have a big "counter spell". Which is 100% and thats why blue saw barely any competitive play. Jund ruled everyones lives. Is that what people want? A brainless, overpowered deck that makes up 80% of the meta just because they dont want their spells to get countered? You do realize that if we had viable counters during the reign of Jund that Jund wouldnt of made it as far as it did right? Think about that.
80% of your meta is the same deck. That isnt fun at ALL. What people dont understand is that if you take from blue their key element its exactly whats going to happen. So do you guys wanna be forced to play something that you dont want to? Is that what you guys want? Guys....Jace, the Mind Sculptor wasnt even ENOUGH for that time....think about THAT one.
I'm not at ALL saying i want a reprint of Mana Leak. IDC really. I was around for all the other times it saw standard play. Thats not the issue. The issue is taking away a key element to help Blue survive. I know, i know...Delver. Sure, we got a creature that dies to basicallly everything you throw at it if people were to think about it. A Galvanic Blast eats a delver for breakfast.
Taking away efficient counters from Blue is like taking burn away from Red...it just doesnt seem right. Now if we DO get a Counterspell reprint, then sure, thats fine and dandy, we can make due with the not so splashable mana cost, but at least we'd have something outside of Vapor Snag to deal with big bombs like titans, elesh, and the other big ol fatties that havent been released yet. I dunno, this is just my 2 cents. If it gets re-printed, it gets re-printed. If they try and push Cancel on us...then kudos everyone, you took blue out of the pie. Cause we wont really have ANY way to deal with big threats before we die.
Besides...it could of been worse....they could of re-printed Mana Drain instead of Mana Leak...remember that lol
so wait....what your saying is give us a 2 cmc counter spell to where if they DONT pay, you get that mana right back? yeahhhhh not gonna happen lol. thats better than mana leak.
I'm hoping to see Remand back now that we're going back to Rav. Great for tempo, but doesn't quite leave that bitter taste in the newer player/countered player's mouth (they get to try again next turn).
thats not true at all...thats actually quite ignorant to say. so i'll be here to drink your tears when you come back all like "OMGZ GUYZ!! CONTROL JUST DOMINATED MY DECK!! BUT I RAN 4 OF THOSE NEW LANDZ!!!"
actually that statement is exactly what is wrong with players. You do realize that there is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between me countering your creature and me doom blading your creature as soon as it hits the field right? its all psychological. you just want that feeling of accomplishment of it hitting the board. thats all. at the end of the day, the same thing happened, your creature didnt stick.
We have no reason to believe that there won't be some kind of replacement for Leak. Calm down, man, you're over reacting. LOL. Yes, they appear to be going on an anti-control crusade. Yes, control players such as myself are extremely unhappy. But, at this point we don't know what they're really planning. Ravnica could be a control block like Innistrad is a creature block. Just relax. And just so you know there's a difference between Doom Blading a creature at the end of the turn instead of countering it. Y'know, it doesn't get it's super mega powerful splashy ETB like the Titan's have >_>
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Because people can stop their gut instincts and psychology. You realise its psychological, so you should realise how pointless it is to fight it.
You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
The Winner is Judge | 7
This Winner is Also Judge | 6
Club Flamingo | Lots
titans are rotating ;-) lol. but what i was pointing out is there is no difference in the destruction portion of the creature. and i'm not really freaking out because of "control", i'm freaking out because they are kicking blue in the teeth. its obvious lol.
your right. its like telling a crack addict he's addicted to crack. he'll deny it till the sky falls but at the end of the day he's going to try and sell you his TV for crack
Hex proof? Indestructible? Protection from X? Blinking? Non creature spells?
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Say that about my acidic slime please.
Blue did pretty well during the Lorwyn/Shards Standard and there wasn't a 2 mana soft counter then.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
It's obvious that Wizards has been getting an earful from players who don't like having their spells countered. Maybe they need more feedback from the other side of the argument.
Spellstutter Sprite was kind of it.
As someone who has played since Magic's early days, and run a cube with things like Mana Drain, Counterspell, Mana Leak, Memory Lapse and Forbid, I laugh at people saying that Mana Leak is too strong. I remember the ****storm of whining when Counterspell was cut from the core set and it was replaced with Mana Leak.
To be fair though, I'd like for them to print another playable counterspell variant, so I can cube with it. The only good new counterspells printed in the Modern era have been Condescend, Remand and Cryptic Command.
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
I think the main reason for this problem is how lazy WotC is designing new counters. The non-reprinting of Mana Leak in M13 will hopefully make them start working again in counterspells in general to make they relevant again, but not overpowered.
Weird. As I read it, I thought it would mean that mana leak is still in M13. Why print a hate card for a soon-to-rotate card? It's a bit weird that the cavern is a solution to snapcaster as they will instead doom blade or vapor snag whatver you play.
What kind of dev is that? Snapcaster a problem? Let's print an eternal staple rare that will will bend every single environment it's in. Yeah, that's the ticket...
This is probably closer to the truth on why they may rotate ML out.
:symr::symu: Reality Bites
:symr::symu: Delver Cyclops
:symr::symu: Niv Control EDH
:symg::symw: Sigarda EDH
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you."
—Venser[/card]