when counterspell was legal, force spike was more played than mana leak, mana leak was a joke. and now mana leak is too strong, lol. that card gets stuck in my hand late game more than any card i play. sigh. if it wasnt for snapcaster, i'd burn the card.
To be fair, that article is talking about how they printed Cavern to hose Mana Leak.
Maybe they will realize that completely hosing it with a card that will be in nearly every deck is good enough. They don't need to foist Cancel on us too.
when counterspell was legal, force spike was more played than mana leak, mana leak was a joke. and now mana leak is too strong, lol. that card gets stuck in my hand late game more than any card i play. sigh. if it wasnt for snapcaster, i'd burn the card.
I'd take Force Spike in trade for Mana Leak in a tempo deck. Still not going to matter, thanks to Cavern.
I felt a great disturbance in the force, like a thousand decks across several formats suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has been printed
Mana Leak is pretty mediocre right now anyways, it gets sided out against prettymuch everything not wolf run. Not that big of a deal since they'll likely reprint Remove Soul/Negate which are both completely fine.
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Mana Leak is too powerful, yet creatures keep getting more and more and more powerful with every single set.
Sometimes I question the sanity of the people developing modern Magic. Are they playing the same game I am? Spells are getting weaker and Creatures are getting MUCH stronger. This isn't a winning formula.
Historically, spells have tended to be more powerful than creatures. This was pretty noticeable back when The Deck ran just one creature to kill their opponent, and backed it up with more powerful spells. Ever since then, Wizards has been trying to make creatures as powerful as spells, so that you have incentive to use the battlefield more. They've been a little overzealous in correcting that, but in their defense, there are a lot of really really powerful spells, like Vindicate, or Cruel Ultimatum. Making creatures at that level of efficiency is difficult, and we're seeing ridiculously powerful creatures. In reaction, they print powerful spells that handle those creatures. So creatures get a lot worse due to Path to Exile and Oring. In response to that, they make all worthwhile creatures either near-impossible to remove or have strong ETB triggers to negate card parity. So now we have ridiculously strong creatures, and some relatively underwhelming spells. Their intention was to create diverse gameplay with a variety of balanced deck styles and approaches, but all it's done is create haymaker spells that severely impact the board every time they resolve.
So, yes. They believe that creatures need to be stronger and spells need to be weaker, and they think it's a winning formula. The problem is, they don't get proper feedback, because it's either 'creatures are winning, print better spells' or 'spells are better, print strong creatures,' rather than calls en masse for toned-down cards and incremental gameplay. Also, the bottom line is that average cards don't incentivize new players to get cards, because they want to upgrade their decks with better cards. Only a small portion of their customer base is more interested in a healthy metagame rather than building a stronger deck to beat their friends' decks.
I don't rely see either Mana Leak or Lightning Blot as to strong to be honest. But in the article he says it would be easy to blame the threats, well honestly when one of your threats is delver it makes early counters like Leak much better.
Also I don't rely feel as if the average creature is to much more powerful than they where in even Shards block if they are more powerful at all. The hay makers in that set weren't as good but their critters where way stronger.
I don't rely see either Mana Leak or Lightning Blot as to strong to be honest. But in the article he says it would be easy to blame the threats, well honestly when one of your threats is delver it makes early counters like Leak much better.
Also I don't rely feel as if the average creature is to much more powerful than they where in even Shards block if they are more powerful at all. The hay makers in that set weren't as good but their critters where way stronger.
Shards block was part of the major creature power creep. I think it generally is recognized to start around Lorywyn-Shards (as far as being blatant). Bloodbraid and Great Sable Stag were pretty ridiculous, and there were some pretty absurd finishers too, if I recall. In ye olden days, the ridiculous creatures were literally Juzam Djinn and Serra Angel. Hypnotic specter, an all-star of the time, probably would be laughed at today. No protection, no ETB trigger, it's just not worth 3 mana. (That's a little false, I think several decks would toss him in, but he'd mostly act as a lightning rod :\)
If you compare spells in similar manners, you get Cruel Ultimatum and Cryptic Command, which compete with Wrath of God and Time Spiral. Swords to Plowshares, Hymn to Tourach, and if you even glance at counterspells, you see some pretty ridiculous stuff. Spells were where the power was at, whereas creature-spells became more prominent in blocks since Lorywyn. That is, creatures that have spell effects attached to them.
I think I'm being fair in my comparisons, but if I'm way off the mark somewhere, someone with more experience please correct me.
Shards block was part of the major creature power creep. I think it generally is recognized to start around Lorywyn-Shards (as far as being blatant). Bloodbraid and Great Sable Stag were pretty ridiculous, and there were some pretty absurd finishers too, if I recall. In ye olden days, the ridiculous creatures were literally Juzam Djinn and Serra Angel. Hypnotic specter, an all-star of the time, probably would be laughed at today. No protection, no ETB trigger, it's just not worth 3 mana. (That's a little false, I think several decks would toss him in, but he'd mostly act as a lightning rod :\)
If you compare spells in similar manners, you get Cruel Ultimatum and Cryptic Command, which compete with Wrath of God and Time Spiral. Swords to Plowshares, Hymn to Tourach, and if you even glance at counterspells, you see some pretty ridiculous stuff. Spells were where the power was at, whereas creature-spells became more prominent in blocks since Lorywyn. That is, creatures that have spell effects attached to them.
I think I'm being fair in my comparisons, but if I'm way off the mark somewhere, someone with more experience please correct me.
I'd have to say that you're right on. They've been pushing creature power creep since Lorowyn when we started seeing cards like Wren's Run Vanquisher and Spellstutter Sprite as far as blatantly powerful and efficient for their CMC. If you look at Legacy's ban list you will see a boat load of spells on there and artifacts. Creature power creep is a good thing but not at the cost of spells to be diluted to the point where they're pretty much an after thought when designing a deck. ``Okay, I have 28 creatures, now what removal and token generation do I put in the rest of my 8-10...) As opposed to spell power decks doing the exact opposite. With the way magic is going right now it's going to be a former rather than the later most of the time. What's a bigger threat? A spell that has a one time use and impact on the board or a creature that can sit there and be a constant threat? When you take away spell power you get a complete unbalance of the game.
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I expected Mana Leak not to come back because it was around for two years, like Bolt, Titans, and BSA, but because it is too powerful was something I wasn't quite expecting.
I think Mana Leak might be out, but it'll probably come back later. Zac's overstating its power level a tad, probably to justify its leaving. I wouldn't be surprised if it came back as soon as Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage rotated.
In the mean time, we'll get Negate and Remove Soul as conditional counters more akin to removal than actual counterspells.
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If you're having creature problems I feel bad for you son
You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
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They really need to start making creatures good without just making them better sorceries.
It may be time that they reevaluate the system of giving creatures such low cost for almost the same effects as spells. Sure creatures needed to catch up a lot when paying 5 or 6 mana for a 3/3 with flying and something that cost 2 mana could just end it, but this is getting a little silly.
There will always be undercosted or overpowered this or that for both creatures and spells, but creatures have been making a lot of headway while spells have remained about the same overall.
I think they said something about Mana Leak being out when they explained why Shock replaced Lightning Bolt. Kind of hoping to see Counterspell again though.
Wow, I feel so sorry for you Standard players. The upcomming season is looking pretty terrible and uninteresting. Counter based decks are a good balancing factor in keeping a metagame in check, and it is looking like you will be stuck with nothing but narrow dreck. Not only are you chasing a format that is wildly expensive (over time), but it will now not even have good tools for a large portion of the potential players. Mana Leak is not broken or too strong, and if you think it is you lack the perspective of what a broken card really is.
Wow, I feel so sorry for you Standard players. The upcomming season is looking pretty terrible and uninteresting. Counter based decks are a good balancing factor in keeping a metagame in check, and it is looking like you will be stuck with nothing but narrow dreck. Not only are you chasing a format that is wildly expensive (over time), but it will now not even have good tools for a large portion of the potential players. Mana Leak is not broken or too strong, and if you think it is you lack the perspective of what a broken card really is.
Yup, QFT. It's not looking good as of right now but we're not entirely sure they won't give counter based control any kind of tools in M13 or Ravnica. As it stands right now, and especially with Cavern being spoiled it's looking like an uphill battle, anyway. And, to be honest; that's great. It'll be more of a satisfaction when I beat decks with a watered down deck that isn't supposed to have a positive win percentage.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Its sad to see Mana Leak go but snapcaster pushes cheap countermagic over the top. I think wizards will slowly swing to board control and away from countermagic. Control decks will survive but they probably will be much more tapout than they are now.
Shards block was part of the major creature power creep. I think it generally is recognized to start around Lorywyn-Shards (as far as being blatant). Bloodbraid and Great Sable Stag were pretty ridiculous, and there were some pretty absurd finishers too, if I recall. In ye olden days, the ridiculous creatures were literally Juzam Djinn and Serra Angel. Hypnotic specter, an all-star of the time, probably would be laughed at today. No protection, no ETB trigger, it's just not worth 3 mana. (That's a little false, I think several decks would toss him in, but he'd mostly act as a lightning rod :\)
If you compare spells in similar manners, you get Cruel Ultimatum and Cryptic Command, which compete with Wrath of God and Time Spiral. Swords to Plowshares, Hymn to Tourach, and if you even glance at counterspells, you see some pretty ridiculous stuff. Spells were where the power was at, whereas creature-spells became more prominent in blocks since Lorywyn. That is, creatures that have spell effects attached to them.
I think I'm being fair in my comparisons, but if I'm way off the mark somewhere, someone with more experience please correct me.
I'm sometimes unclear with what I mean and that's what I think happened here. What I meant is that I feel recent creature creep feelings has more to do with weaker spells than anything. Being that spells are weaker for the most part and when spells are weaker creatures feel stronger.I feel is that in the recent sets since shards the power creep in creatures has been fairly lax. The medium size dudes and small dudes aren't as good as shards and the big dudes are better for the most part (titan effect)
I'm sometimes unclear with what I mean and that's what I think happened here. What I meant is that I feel recent creature creep feelings has more to do with weaker spells than anything. Being that spells are weaker for the most part and when spells are weaker creatures feel stronger.I feel is that in the recent sets since shards the power creep in creatures has been fairly lax. The medium size dudes and small dudes aren't as good as shards and the big dudes are better for the most part (titan effect)
The fact that magic has been pushed hardcore into a "boardstate matters" much more than what it used to be is the biggest reason creatures are getting pushed. Planeswalkers are another big reason for this. Without good creatures they become too hard to answer effectively amd thus become too powerful. If Geist of Saint Traft had been in invasion block, it probably would have been banned. Look at flametongue kavu, its probably good enough to see play now, but it was format warping back then. Psychatog was the best creature ever printed for the longest time, it dominated 2 standard formats, extended, and vintage. It's not even a card anymore.
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Let's face it, mana leak is better counterspell on turns 1-5. And with creatures getting better games are often decided in 1-5 turns.
It's probably strictly conditional counters like negate and remove soul for 2 mana from now on.
There is absolutely no situation under the God given sun that Mana Leak is better than counterspell. Decks that use Counterspell will have the mana required to cast it on turn 2 90% of the time.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
There is absolutely no situation under the God given sun that Mana Leak is better than counterspell. Decks that use Counterspell will have the mana required to cast it on turn 2 90% of the time.
There is. In 2+ color decks in early turns. Like, uh, every blue-based deck now in standart.
Maybe they will realize that completely hosing it with a card that will be in nearly every deck is good enough. They don't need to foist Cancel on us too.
I'd take Force Spike in trade for Mana Leak in a tempo deck. Still not going to matter, thanks to Cavern.
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I really don't see a problem with these types of cards.
Hope its really gone b/c its just too powerful, make it UU and 'counter unless 2' and maybe we'll talk
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The cheaper the threats, the more oppressive the card becomes.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Historically, spells have tended to be more powerful than creatures. This was pretty noticeable back when The Deck ran just one creature to kill their opponent, and backed it up with more powerful spells. Ever since then, Wizards has been trying to make creatures as powerful as spells, so that you have incentive to use the battlefield more. They've been a little overzealous in correcting that, but in their defense, there are a lot of really really powerful spells, like Vindicate, or Cruel Ultimatum. Making creatures at that level of efficiency is difficult, and we're seeing ridiculously powerful creatures. In reaction, they print powerful spells that handle those creatures. So creatures get a lot worse due to Path to Exile and Oring. In response to that, they make all worthwhile creatures either near-impossible to remove or have strong ETB triggers to negate card parity. So now we have ridiculously strong creatures, and some relatively underwhelming spells. Their intention was to create diverse gameplay with a variety of balanced deck styles and approaches, but all it's done is create haymaker spells that severely impact the board every time they resolve.
So, yes. They believe that creatures need to be stronger and spells need to be weaker, and they think it's a winning formula. The problem is, they don't get proper feedback, because it's either 'creatures are winning, print better spells' or 'spells are better, print strong creatures,' rather than calls en masse for toned-down cards and incremental gameplay. Also, the bottom line is that average cards don't incentivize new players to get cards, because they want to upgrade their decks with better cards. Only a small portion of their customer base is more interested in a healthy metagame rather than building a stronger deck to beat their friends' decks.
Karador EDH
Comments on decks welcome: http://tappedout.net/users/AradonTemplar/
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He is the only card to have been in every core set since the game began lol.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
Also I don't rely feel as if the average creature is to much more powerful than they where in even Shards block if they are more powerful at all. The hay makers in that set weren't as good but their critters where way stronger.
Shards block was part of the major creature power creep. I think it generally is recognized to start around Lorywyn-Shards (as far as being blatant). Bloodbraid and Great Sable Stag were pretty ridiculous, and there were some pretty absurd finishers too, if I recall. In ye olden days, the ridiculous creatures were literally Juzam Djinn and Serra Angel. Hypnotic specter, an all-star of the time, probably would be laughed at today. No protection, no ETB trigger, it's just not worth 3 mana. (That's a little false, I think several decks would toss him in, but he'd mostly act as a lightning rod :\)
If you compare spells in similar manners, you get Cruel Ultimatum and Cryptic Command, which compete with Wrath of God and Time Spiral. Swords to Plowshares, Hymn to Tourach, and if you even glance at counterspells, you see some pretty ridiculous stuff. Spells were where the power was at, whereas creature-spells became more prominent in blocks since Lorywyn. That is, creatures that have spell effects attached to them.
I think I'm being fair in my comparisons, but if I'm way off the mark somewhere, someone with more experience please correct me.
Karador EDH
Comments on decks welcome: http://tappedout.net/users/AradonTemplar/
Currently developing Set 1 of 3, 'Shadow': http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=436885
I'd have to say that you're right on. They've been pushing creature power creep since Lorowyn when we started seeing cards like Wren's Run Vanquisher and Spellstutter Sprite as far as blatantly powerful and efficient for their CMC. If you look at Legacy's ban list you will see a boat load of spells on there and artifacts. Creature power creep is a good thing but not at the cost of spells to be diluted to the point where they're pretty much an after thought when designing a deck. ``Okay, I have 28 creatures, now what removal and token generation do I put in the rest of my 8-10...) As opposed to spell power decks doing the exact opposite. With the way magic is going right now it's going to be a former rather than the later most of the time. What's a bigger threat? A spell that has a one time use and impact on the board or a creature that can sit there and be a constant threat? When you take away spell power you get a complete unbalance of the game.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
In the mean time, we'll get Negate and Remove Soul as conditional counters more akin to removal than actual counterspells.
You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
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It may be time that they reevaluate the system of giving creatures such low cost for almost the same effects as spells. Sure creatures needed to catch up a lot when paying 5 or 6 mana for a 3/3 with flying and something that cost 2 mana could just end it, but this is getting a little silly.
There will always be undercosted or overpowered this or that for both creatures and spells, but creatures have been making a lot of headway while spells have remained about the same overall.
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Yup, QFT. It's not looking good as of right now but we're not entirely sure they won't give counter based control any kind of tools in M13 or Ravnica. As it stands right now, and especially with Cavern being spoiled it's looking like an uphill battle, anyway. And, to be honest; that's great. It'll be more of a satisfaction when I beat decks with a watered down deck that isn't supposed to have a positive win percentage.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I'm sometimes unclear with what I mean and that's what I think happened here. What I meant is that I feel recent creature creep feelings has more to do with weaker spells than anything. Being that spells are weaker for the most part and when spells are weaker creatures feel stronger.I feel is that in the recent sets since shards the power creep in creatures has been fairly lax. The medium size dudes and small dudes aren't as good as shards and the big dudes are better for the most part (titan effect)
No, creatures are definitely stronger.
Bident Layers
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Modern:
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UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
It's probably strictly conditional counters like negate and remove soul for 2 mana from now on.
There is absolutely no situation under the God given sun that Mana Leak is better than counterspell. Decks that use Counterspell will have the mana required to cast it on turn 2 90% of the time.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
There is. In 2+ color decks in early turns. Like, uh, every blue-based deck now in standart.