Wizards has been experimenting with looting in Red lately. I think, based on MaRo's comments for Faithless Looting in part 1 of Dark Shadows, they are trying out a different approach from what we're familiar with from Blue.
"We also spent some time coming up with the ways the two colors were going to use looting differently, but that happened after this card got sent to print, so we'll save that discussion for another day. I will hint that under our new paradigm for how red uses looting, this card would be printed slightly different from its current wording."
It seems most likely to me that "slightly different" would involve a minimal change, changing a word, or swapping a couple, something like that.
Standard blue draw-then-discard looting is inappropriate in red. Why? Because you can make it more useful by keeping more cards in your hand, giving you more options for the discard, and makes you commit only after you see what you're getting. With an empty hand, it's useless. Keeping a full grip of cards just doesn't feel appropriate for red.
But if the draw follows the discard, forcing you to decide what you're getting rid of, the effect becomes less predictable. On top of that, it becomes a straight-up draw effect with an empty hand - significantly more powerful if you go all-in, like a good red player.
This is why I believe we will soon see discard-then-draw-type looting in red.
Yeah, discard-then-draw is much for flavorful and mechanically red. But ultimately it usually falls short because looting effects on spells are inherently card disadvantage. Blue makes up for this by being able to select the best cards, increasing the value of each card in hand at the expense of having less cards. In order for it to get pushed well in red, red will either need more cards they can use from the graveyard (which is unlikely to ever be common except in block themes), or it needs to draw at least one more card than it discards.
Of course, if you put it on a creature then it isn't quite as bad, because then you aren't getting inherent card disadvantage. Red could even get the effect at a discount because it is weaker than the blue equivalent. I wouldn't be surprised if something like this made it to a core set someday:
Goblin Looter1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue (U) T: Discard a card, then draw a card.
2/1
What? Discard then draw is so much better than blue's "draw then discard", since you can use it even if you don't have a hand for free stuff. Faithless Looting would be a lot more powerful if it was discard two then draw, imo.
@scarap: yeah Faithless Looting would be awesome if it were discard first then draw. It would be a really good card instead of a marginal one and I think a card of that power level would be fine.
Yeah, discard-then-draw is much for flavorful and mechanically red. But ultimately it usually falls short because looting effects on spells are inherently card disadvantage. Blue makes up for this by being able to select the best cards, increasing the value of each card in hand at the expense of having less cards. In order for it to get pushed well in red, red will either need more cards they can use from the graveyard (which is unlikely to ever be common except in block themes), or it needs to draw at least one more card than it discards.
Of course, if you put it on a creature then it isn't quite as bad, because then you aren't getting inherent card disadvantage. Red could even get the effect at a discount because it is weaker than the blue equivalent. I wouldn't be surprised if something like this made it to a core set someday:
Goblin Looter1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue (U) T: Discard a card, then draw a card.
2/1
That creature would be very powerful. I like it
Discard-then-draw would be a very useful thing to give red. Red's needed a larger amount of abilities for a long time and I really think this kind of thing could help.
What? Discard then draw is so much better than blue's "draw then discard", since you can use it even if you don't have a hand for free stuff. Faithless Looting would be a lot more powerful if it was discard two then draw, imo.
My idea in terms of this is printing red draw spells with additional costs of discarding cards. This fixes the issue of possibly overpowered cards, such as what would have been if the wording of Faithless Looting had been reversed. In that case, on an empty hand it would have read "R: Draw two cards"
I swear I first read it as Wingbonger...something tells me that "As Long as Wingbonger is paired with another creature, both creatures have weed." wouldn't be as good. Seems solid for limited.
It may sound fun but it would have to be limited in some way if done in this manner. Either through expensive mana cost, only being to draw up to the number you discard, or some other control valve. Otherwise it's obviously far too strong when combined with Red's direct damage and rituals.
My idea in terms of this is printing red draw spells with additional costs of discarding cards. This fixes the issue of possibly overpowered cards, such as what would have been if the wording of Faithless Looting had been reversed. In that case, on an empty hand it would have read "R: Draw two cards"
"R: Hellbent, draw two cards" would be a good printable card though.
Discard as an additional cost will ensure the looting is never playable because it's dramatically weaker than either other option and also sets you up to be devastated by counters. The only way a card with that restriction would be playable is in Dredge where it would actually be phenomenal.
Even normal discard-then-draw will actually be incredible in Dredge. Something like that could definitely manage to replace Careful Study like Faithless Looting failed to.
Some kind of not-broken Wheel of Fortune would be a nice callback.
"R: Hellbent, draw two cards" would be a good printable card though.
Discard as an additional cost will ensure the looting is never playable because it's dramatically weaker than either other option and also sets you up to be devastated by counters. The only way a card with that restriction would be playable is in Dredge where it would actually be phenomenal.
Even normal discard-then-draw will actually be incredible in Dredge. Something like that could definitely manage to replace Careful Study like Faithless Looting failed to.
I was worried about something along those lines with the proposal, and I'm very curious about how they're going to do this. Most of the ways I've seen discussed or thought of are very risky in terms of brokenness, especially in Dredge. And Wizards doesn't like Dredge.
I suppose Wheel of Fortune variations might work, but I feel like there's not a whole lot of design space there.
I swear I first read it as Wingbonger...something tells me that "As Long as Wingbonger is paired with another creature, both creatures have weed." wouldn't be as good. Seems solid for limited.
@scarap: yeah Faithless Looting would be awesome if it were discard first then draw. It would be a really good card instead of a marginal one and I think a card of that power level would be fine.
this was in response to
Red could even get the effect at a discount because it is weaker than the blue equivalent. I wouldn't be surprised if something like this made it to a core set someday:
if it wasn't clear.
which was actually responded to and i didn't notice it because i'm tired and blahblahblah. i agree that discarding a card as an additional cost is way too big of a downside. I'd be honestly fine with something like "Draw two and then discard one.", or something like "Draw 3 and then discard two unless you discard a this" that blue's seen in the past. I'm all for giving the other colors some way to get card draw as secondary/teritary abilities, trust me.
What? Discard then draw is so much better than blue's "draw then discard", since you can use it even if you don't have a hand for free stuff. Faithless Looting would be a lot more powerful if it was discard two then draw, imo.
Play R much?
'Cuz us U Mages (of the controlling type, anyway) like to keep our hands full of just the right mix of cards,
and discard-then-draw is very counterproductive to that strategy.
R, on the other hand, burns through spells (har har) so fast they would definitely benefit from that order.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Yeah, I guess in order to make those kinds of cards work it would have to be "Discard up to X cards, then draw that many cards." in order to prevent Wheel of Fortune type hand-dumping into more cards.
its also possible that future red looting will be draw then discard at random which i dont really like as well, but it makes more sense to me flavor and power wise
This is a great idea. At the very least this is untapped design space that definitely could go to Red, giving it a way to have card advantage. The mechanic is potentially powerful, so it definitely needs testing.
its also possible that future red looting will be draw then discard at random which i dont really like as well, but it makes more sense to me flavor and power wise
The biggest problem with that is that the only time you'd want to use it is if you either got to draw more cards than you discard at random, or if nothing in your hand was currently useful so it was worth taking the risk.
Meanwhile, a mechanic like "Discard X cards. If you do, draw X cards" still has elements of short-sightedness and risk (very red) while being functional in a wider variety of situations.
I definitely overlooked the empty hand scenario with my Goblin Looter. Here's how I'd make it with that taken into account.
Goblin Looter1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue (U) T: Discard a card. If you do, draw a card. "Now that's a lot better!"
2/1
its also possible that future red looting will be draw then discard at random which i dont really like as well, but it makes more sense to me flavor and power wise
That wouldn't be new though, it's the current kind of draw effect red gets. like Burning Inquiry
The second MIGHT be printable on a permanent but never on a spell. As someone correctly pointed out earlier, discard as an additional cost lends itself to blowouts if the spell gets countered.
I swear I first read it as Wingbonger...something tells me that "As Long as Wingbonger is paired with another creature, both creatures have weed." wouldn't be as good. Seems solid for limited.
'Cuz us Mages (of the controlling type, anyway) like to keep our hands full of just the right mix of cards,
and discard-then-draw is very counterproductive to that strategy.
"Looks like this card isn't so great in this situation, I'll pitch it and dig for something more useful."
Hellbent, "Tap: discard 1, draw 1" is better than Dark Confidant.
Because, as we all know, hellbent is such an easy position to get into and stay in in the game of magic.
seriously, we're talking about rewarding players for putting themselves in an extremely bad position. Is Hellent: tap, draw 1 a broken ability? No.
on a 2/1 goblin? nope still not broken.
So then, since its not inherently broken its only a matter of balancing costs: 1R is really strong, and pushing the envelope. 2R is playably strong, but not by any means broken, 3R (or 1RR) is too weak to see any play.
Hellbent, "Tap: discard 1, draw 1" is better than Dark Confidant.
That is extremely wrong. Dark Confidant draws you an extra card each turn with no restrictions, this card would have to tap each turn and you need no cards in hand.
A red creature with this ability would be good and it isn't broken at all, we already have much more powerful effects.
I swear I first read it as Wingbonger...something tells me that "As Long as Wingbonger is paired with another creature, both creatures have weed." wouldn't be as good. Seems solid for limited.
"We also spent some time coming up with the ways the two colors were going to use looting differently, but that happened after this card got sent to print, so we'll save that discussion for another day. I will hint that under our new paradigm for how red uses looting, this card would be printed slightly different from its current wording."
It seems most likely to me that "slightly different" would involve a minimal change, changing a word, or swapping a couple, something like that.
Standard blue draw-then-discard looting is inappropriate in red. Why? Because you can make it more useful by keeping more cards in your hand, giving you more options for the discard, and makes you commit only after you see what you're getting. With an empty hand, it's useless. Keeping a full grip of cards just doesn't feel appropriate for red.
But if the draw follows the discard, forcing you to decide what you're getting rid of, the effect becomes less predictable. On top of that, it becomes a straight-up draw effect with an empty hand - significantly more powerful if you go all-in, like a good red player.
This is why I believe we will soon see discard-then-draw-type looting in red.
RWU
GUB
WBR
URG
BGW
Of course, if you put it on a creature then it isn't quite as bad, because then you aren't getting inherent card disadvantage. Red could even get the effect at a discount because it is weaker than the blue equivalent. I wouldn't be surprised if something like this made it to a core set someday:
Goblin Looter 1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue (U)
T: Discard a card, then draw a card.
2/1
That creature would be very powerful. I like it
Discard-then-draw would be a very useful thing to give red. Red's needed a larger amount of abilities for a long time and I really think this kind of thing could help.
My idea in terms of this is printing red draw spells with additional costs of discarding cards. This fixes the issue of possibly overpowered cards, such as what would have been if the wording of Faithless Looting had been reversed. In that case, on an empty hand it would have read "R: Draw two cards"
RIP Mike McArtor. The Mothership won't be the same.
Legacy
GG Aggro Elves GG
"R: Hellbent, draw two cards" would be a good printable card though.
Discard as an additional cost will ensure the looting is never playable because it's dramatically weaker than either other option and also sets you up to be devastated by counters. The only way a card with that restriction would be playable is in Dredge where it would actually be phenomenal.
Even normal discard-then-draw will actually be incredible in Dredge. Something like that could definitely manage to replace Careful Study like Faithless Looting failed to.
Some kind of not-broken Wheel of Fortune would be a nice callback.
I was worried about something along those lines with the proposal, and I'm very curious about how they're going to do this. Most of the ways I've seen discussed or thought of are very risky in terms of brokenness, especially in Dredge. And Wizards doesn't like Dredge.
I suppose Wheel of Fortune variations might work, but I feel like there's not a whole lot of design space there.
RIP Mike McArtor. The Mothership won't be the same.
Legacy
GG Aggro Elves GG
this was in response to
if it wasn't clear.
which was actually responded to and i didn't notice it because i'm tired and blahblahblah. i agree that discarding a card as an additional cost is way too big of a downside. I'd be honestly fine with something like "Draw two and then discard one.", or something like "Draw 3 and then discard two unless you discard a this" that blue's seen in the past. I'm all for giving the other colors some way to get card draw as secondary/teritary abilities, trust me.
Play R much?
'Cuz us U Mages (of the controlling type, anyway) like to keep our hands full of just the right mix of cards,
and discard-then-draw is very counterproductive to that strategy.
R, on the other hand, burns through spells (har har) so fast they would definitely benefit from that order.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpgjnU7C3Aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe7kkZixasc
The biggest problem with that is that the only time you'd want to use it is if you either got to draw more cards than you discard at random, or if nothing in your hand was currently useful so it was worth taking the risk.
Meanwhile, a mechanic like "Discard X cards. If you do, draw X cards" still has elements of short-sightedness and risk (very red) while being functional in a wider variety of situations.
I definitely overlooked the empty hand scenario with my Goblin Looter. Here's how I'd make it with that taken into account.
Goblin Looter 1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue (U)
T: Discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
"Now that's a lot better!"
2/1
That wouldn't be new though, it's the current kind of draw effect red gets. like Burning Inquiry
is unpritable
t, discard a card: draw a card
might work.
The second MIGHT be printable on a permanent but never on a spell. As someone correctly pointed out earlier, discard as an additional cost lends itself to blowouts if the spell gets countered.
RIP Mike McArtor. The Mothership won't be the same.
Legacy
GG Aggro Elves GG
"Looks like this card isn't so great in this situation, I'll pitch it and dig for something more useful."
Hellbent, "Tap: discard 1, draw 1" is better than Dark Confidant.
Because, as we all know, hellbent is such an easy position to get into and stay in in the game of magic.
seriously, we're talking about rewarding players for putting themselves in an extremely bad position. Is Hellent: tap, draw 1 a broken ability? No.
on a 2/1 goblin? nope still not broken.
So then, since its not inherently broken its only a matter of balancing costs: 1R is really strong, and pushing the envelope. 2R is playably strong, but not by any means broken, 3R (or 1RR) is too weak to see any play.
That is extremely wrong. Dark Confidant draws you an extra card each turn with no restrictions, this card would have to tap each turn and you need no cards in hand.
A red creature with this ability would be good and it isn't broken at all, we already have much more powerful effects.
I would love something like this:
Goblin Looter 1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue (R)
Haste
T: Discard a card, then draw a card.
2/1
RIP Mike McArtor. The Mothership won't be the same.
Legacy
GG Aggro Elves GG