As it stands Hexproof is fine, great keyword ability that not only makes creatures but AURAS relevant. People aren't looking at the right way, a Invisible Stalker with 3 enchantments on it is 4 cards... If you wipe it's still a 4 for 1.
I don't think Hexproof is anywhere near a problem as say Affinity was during Mirrodin standard.... Geist is an Awesome Mythic rare, stop *****ing you can make a deck with Auras relevant be happy...
Speaking as a Green player since the game practically came out, it was a breath of fresh air getting hexproof. I loved Autumn Willow and it was nice having a least one creature not get lightning bolted/terrored/control magiced, etc. For years I waited for more creatures of her ilk. Shroud was nice but it sucked not being able to target the creature yourself. Finally Green started getting a number of decent hexproof cards and now people want to get rid of it?
You'll notice that once they started moving hexproof into other colours (namey blue, Wizard's love child) that all the problems began.
Hexproof actually made Auras relevant again. Losing card advantage sucked and basically Rancor was the only aura played for the longest time. Too much removal.
Keep it in Green and you won't have any problems.
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As it stands Hexproof is fine, great keyword ability that not only makes creatures but AURAS relevant. People aren't looking at the right way, a Invisible Stalker with 3 enchantments on it is 4 cards... If you wipe it's still a 4 for 1.
You forgot that most board wipes are either very conditional (bonfire) or simetric.So you will lose cards too.
Hexproof is a terrible mechanic which takes away interaction. Shroud was perfectly good and a perfectly strong mechanic. The fact that the new Spotlight card EXISTS, proves that the Hexproof mechanic is flawed. I enjoyed it when it was on Troll Ascetic and Thrun, because it was a mechanic used every now and then and it was a powerful rarity.
Flawed? Nahh, the Hexproof hoser was printed just in case cypher gets silly. If Invisible Stalker didn't have unblockable on the card we probably wouldn't see that card in this set.... Hexproof is fine and hasnt warped any format, I don't understand why people are complaining.
As it stands Hexproof is fine, great keyword ability that not only makes creatures but AURAS relevant. People aren't looking at the right way, a Invisible Stalker with 3 enchantments on it is 4 cards... If you wipe it's still a 4 for 1.
I don't think Hexproof is anywhere near a problem as say Affinity was during Mirrodin standard.... Geist is an Awesome Mythic rare, stop *****ing you can make a deck with Auras relevant be happy...
I would venture to say that if you need hexproof to make auras not jank, then the auras themselves need to be reassessed.
I REALLY love hexproof cause it hozes most control (I hate playing against blue). Although, invisble stalker and giest getting hexproof is just wrong in my opinion cause it gives blue to much power. Green and other colors should have hexproof to counter act blue's strength of control. I like to see balences. Shroud on the other hand is not great for me, cause I want to put my creatures to work beyond attack, block, or any ability it might have.
Hexproof may be getting to prevelent (in blue only), but double strike and first strike are more prevelent now. Those abilities are really strong/powerful in early/mid game.
I agree with that, did I say auras were good? Or are you saying hexproof is bad?
Your last post, at least to me, implied that auras are reliant on hexproof to be relevant. This was part of your argument towards hexproof and why it's good for magic.
I'm saying that instead of having a house of cards built from reliance on creature keywords, the auras should be attractive enough to be relevant on their own.
IMO all the Hexproof hate is simply a knee jerk reaction to a good meta call at our last GPT. The game plan that ultimately enables and breaks the ability (in some peoples eyes) is extremely narrow minded in nature. If you find it to be a real issue, side in extra sweepers, edicts, enchantment hate and etc. because there's plenty of viable answers available in standard. There's honestly absolutely nothing wrong with the ability, as the cards attached with them literally have inherent and blatant weaknesses.
hexproof on blue creatures really hoses the game. invisible stalker is broken. Geist is surprisingly less because you can block it. stalker should have had shroud, to be able to target it with auras and equipment is too broken of an ability and too busted of a mythic. green should have the hexproof. they're always the target of burn spells, counters, unsummon ect.
i'm with the bring back shroud group, shroud wasn't as broken as hexproof.
Approximately .01 percent of all creatures in Magic have shroud (or the ability to be given shroud. (80 creatures with shroud or the ability to gain it.) Only 28 creatures with Hexproof (or the ability to gain it). And that is within the last few years. The people that gripe about these two types of keywords have very little to stand on. Yes, there are also cards that give them to other permanents, but that's besides the point. And those arguing for the return of shroud...why? That makes auras (They did bring back Rancor after all!), removal, and cards that "rescue/save" your own creatures ten times worse. And most of the 80ish shroud creatures where not really so overpowered that they'd be busted if you could hit them with X,Y, or Z. Maybe some, but over all, not that many.
And if Invisible Stalker is that annoying, play more sweepers. Or put your standard deck up on the shelf until the rotation of Innistrad which will be on our doorstep sooner than we care to admit. Or shift your focus to more "broken" abilities like Haste which makes aggro decks way too over powered or flying that make creatures WAY too hard to block. *Rolls eyes*
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thank WOTC for inventing sweeps, otherwise my UB mill deck would have been screwed over many times,(couldn't mention that cuz my internet lagged).
running Dimir and Grull for prerelease=)
And as Leononkah mentioned, shoud is balanced, hexproof isn't
And those arguing for the return of shroud...why? That makes auras (They did bring back Rancor after all!), removal, and cards that "rescue/save" your own creatures ten times worse. And most of the 80ish shroud creatures where not really so overpowered that they'd be busted if you could hit them with X,Y, or Z. Maybe some, but over all, not that many.
This particular line of logic baffles me. You do realize that perhaps auras and rescues can also target the vast majority of creatures without shroud right? That's the whole entire point of shroud, to be the ~1% percent who don't interact with those spells! That's their niche! They add an additional layer to the game with their inherent unique upside/downside.
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While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
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"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
How on earth does a hoser for a mechanic prove the mechanic is flawed? Does Tsabo's Web prove utility lands are flawed?
No, but it does mean that Rishadan Port is flawed.
Hexproof is inherently non-interactive, and given that one of the key reasons WoTC has pushed so hard to make this game creature dominated is to increase interaction, it's reasonable to say that the proliferation of hexproof is a problem. It's fine on the occasional sturdy green creature as it helps the color get through blue and black control effects, but cards like Geist and Invisible Stalker are miserable for the game.
I find it ironic you used the phrase "bury" when stating we need to bring back a now dead mechanic. I don't know if that was your intent, but I found it amusing.
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There is buried treasure everywhere...in a graveyard.
No, but it does mean that Rishadan Port is flawed.
In that case it does, but Flames of the Blood Hand doesn't mean life-gain is flawed; Grafdigger's Cage didn't mean graveyard strategies are flawed (hell, it had little to no impact on them)...
The card wasn't even designed as a hoser card. It's a top-down design of a lamppost. It's a "city flavor" card.
If you think hexproof is a bad mechanic, that's fine, but the existence of a card that potentially diminishes its impact is not proof of your point.
I like Hexproof and I like Shroud, but I think Hexproof needs to be rarer and more special like it once was. I hope core sets go back to having more Shroud than Hexproof.
I really like hexproof, and think it was necessary for wizards to finally have creatures compete with spells. Creature based decks traditionally had zero interaction with spell based decks (control/combo/tempo), but these spell could interact with creatures quite easily with removal and counters.
Wizards has been moving to make creatures more relevant. That's why I believe they made planeswalkers the way they did (they can be attacked.) And since generally only spells can interact with other spells it seems fair that they have some creatures that can only interact with other creatures.
Hexproof does not over simplify the game, it actually makes it more complex. If your deck can't handle a 2/2 non-flying geist without using removal then you must rebuild your deck. That I believe is actually a very reasonable barrier to overcome.
As for invisible stalker, I have yet to see it truly dominate or warp the meta. Yes it is annoying for a turn 2 stalker followed up by nothing but enchantments and equipments. But is that really any different than facing down a hand full of counterspells and removal for an aggro deck?
Your last post, at least to me, implied that auras are reliant on hexproof to be relevant. This was part of your argument towards hexproof and why it's good for magic.
I'm saying that instead of having a house of cards built from reliance on creature keywords, the auras should be attractive enough to be relevant on their own.
Auras for the most part suck, I agree. But hexproof does make them playable we can agree on that...
I think their is nothing wrong with Hexproof, it hasn't defined any format and it hasn't been a problem ever. I don't understand the hate, it's fun well at least to me.
As far as Invisible Stalker being broken? Ummmm since when? Before the GP it saw fringe play at best...
I really like hexproof, and think it was necessary for wizards to finally have creatures compete with spells. Creature based decks traditionally had zero interaction with spell based decks (control/combo/tempo), but these spell could interact with creatures quite easily with removal and counters.
Wizards has been moving to make creatures more relevant. That's why I believe they made planeswalkers the way they did (they can be attacked.) And since generally only spells can interact with other spells it seems fair that they have some creatures that can only interact with other creatures.
Hexproof does not over simplify the game, it actually makes it more complex. If your deck can't handle a 2/2 non-flying geist without using removal then you must rebuild your deck. That I believe is actually a very reasonable barrier to overcome.
As for invisible stalker, I have yet to see it truly dominate or warp the meta. Yes it is annoying for a turn 2 stalker followed up by nothing but enchantments and equipments. But is that really any different than facing down a hand full of counterspells and removal for an aggro deck?
Pretty much what he said. The bottom line is, Wizards knows what they're doing. Creature-based gameplay in magic is really fun and interactive, and Rosewater has talked at length about how creatures have been underpowered relative to spells for most of Magic's history. Check out this article for some discussion of indestructible creatures, counterspells and the 'terror conundrum' - https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/121
I actually like Hexproof. It's a nice ability, much like regeneration. Creatures *should* have protection from removal, it makes for fun magic. Of course you can't make too powerful Hefproofed creatures coz' that would just destroy magic. Geist of Saint Traft is OK because all it takes is a 2/3 to make a favourable trade for you.
I don't think Hexproof is anywhere near a problem as say Affinity was during Mirrodin standard.... Geist is an Awesome Mythic rare, stop *****ing you can make a deck with Auras relevant be happy...
Speaking as a Green player since the game practically came out, it was a breath of fresh air getting hexproof. I loved Autumn Willow and it was nice having a least one creature not get lightning bolted/terrored/control magiced, etc. For years I waited for more creatures of her ilk. Shroud was nice but it sucked not being able to target the creature yourself. Finally Green started getting a number of decent hexproof cards and now people want to get rid of it?
You'll notice that once they started moving hexproof into other colours (namey blue, Wizard's love child) that all the problems began.
Hexproof actually made Auras relevant again. Losing card advantage sucked and basically Rancor was the only aura played for the longest time. Too much removal.
Keep it in Green and you won't have any problems.
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Flawed? Nahh, the Hexproof hoser was printed just in case cypher gets silly. If Invisible Stalker didn't have unblockable on the card we probably wouldn't see that card in this set.... Hexproof is fine and hasnt warped any format, I don't understand why people are complaining.
I would venture to say that if you need hexproof to make auras not jank, then the auras themselves need to be reassessed.
I agree with that, did I say auras were good? Or are you saying hexproof is bad?
Hexproof may be getting to prevelent (in blue only), but double strike and first strike are more prevelent now. Those abilities are really strong/powerful in early/mid game.
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Your last post, at least to me, implied that auras are reliant on hexproof to be relevant. This was part of your argument towards hexproof and why it's good for magic.
I'm saying that instead of having a house of cards built from reliance on creature keywords, the auras should be attractive enough to be relevant on their own.
i'm with the bring back shroud group, shroud wasn't as broken as hexproof.
Thanks Argentleman;)
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And if Invisible Stalker is that annoying, play more sweepers. Or put your standard deck up on the shelf until the rotation of Innistrad which will be on our doorstep sooner than we care to admit. Or shift your focus to more "broken" abilities like Haste which makes aggro decks way too over powered or flying that make creatures WAY too hard to block. *Rolls eyes*
An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
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Bring back Shroud, bury Hexproof
running Dimir and Grull for prerelease=)
And as Leononkah mentioned, shoud is balanced, hexproof isn't
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
This particular line of logic baffles me. You do realize that perhaps auras and rescues can also target the vast majority of creatures without shroud right? That's the whole entire point of shroud, to be the ~1% percent who don't interact with those spells! That's their niche! They add an additional layer to the game with their inherent unique upside/downside.
An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
GP Vegas: It was once in a lifetime!
On Vault of the Archangel
No, but it does mean that Rishadan Port is flawed.
Hexproof is inherently non-interactive, and given that one of the key reasons WoTC has pushed so hard to make this game creature dominated is to increase interaction, it's reasonable to say that the proliferation of hexproof is a problem. It's fine on the occasional sturdy green creature as it helps the color get through blue and black control effects, but cards like Geist and Invisible Stalker are miserable for the game.
I find it ironic you used the phrase "bury" when stating we need to bring back a now dead mechanic. I don't know if that was your intent, but I found it amusing.
There is buried treasure everywhere...in a graveyard.
You do realize that I was talking about actual hate, not cards being printed, right?
In that case it does, but Flames of the Blood Hand doesn't mean life-gain is flawed; Grafdigger's Cage didn't mean graveyard strategies are flawed (hell, it had little to no impact on them)...
The card wasn't even designed as a hoser card. It's a top-down design of a lamppost. It's a "city flavor" card.
If you think hexproof is a bad mechanic, that's fine, but the existence of a card that potentially diminishes its impact is not proof of your point.
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Wizards has been moving to make creatures more relevant. That's why I believe they made planeswalkers the way they did (they can be attacked.) And since generally only spells can interact with other spells it seems fair that they have some creatures that can only interact with other creatures.
Hexproof does not over simplify the game, it actually makes it more complex. If your deck can't handle a 2/2 non-flying geist without using removal then you must rebuild your deck. That I believe is actually a very reasonable barrier to overcome.
As for invisible stalker, I have yet to see it truly dominate or warp the meta. Yes it is annoying for a turn 2 stalker followed up by nothing but enchantments and equipments. But is that really any different than facing down a hand full of counterspells and removal for an aggro deck?
Auras for the most part suck, I agree. But hexproof does make them playable we can agree on that...
I think their is nothing wrong with Hexproof, it hasn't defined any format and it hasn't been a problem ever. I don't understand the hate, it's fun well at least to me.
As far as Invisible Stalker being broken? Ummmm since when? Before the GP it saw fringe play at best...
Pretty much what he said. The bottom line is, Wizards knows what they're doing. Creature-based gameplay in magic is really fun and interactive, and Rosewater has talked at length about how creatures have been underpowered relative to spells for most of Magic's history. Check out this article for some discussion of indestructible creatures, counterspells and the 'terror conundrum' - https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/121
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