Well, i'm explaining that it's a good card early game. Obviously Devil isn't good late game. It's really decent early game, though. That's what i'm trying to point out. Nivmagus is good early game, as are Devil and Delver.
My last post on Devil, as it is very off topic. He is worse on turn 1 than he is on turn 3. Turn 3 might be the only turn where is isn't totally worthless. 4 damage to the face is not good for one card. In fact, it's just bad.
Well, i'm explaining that it's a good card early game. Obviously Devil isn't good late game. It's really decent early game, though. That's what i'm trying to point out. Nivmagus is good early game, as are Devil and Delver.
Early game, it's a slightly higher bolt that you can't aim. That was what was good about Lightning Bolt. Damage doesn't matter until the opponent is dead. Also, Nivmagus is good at any point...it's a utility creature NOT an aggro creature. It can be aggressive but relying on that is a bad play, trust me.
My last post on Devil, as it is very off topic. He is worse on turn 1 than he is on turn 3. Turn 3 might be the only turn where is isn't totally worthless. 4 damage to the face is not good for one card. In fact, it's just bad.
So a shock or lightning bolt is better burn damage right away than a Devil on turn one? (Or we could live in the "Magical Christmas Land" and just assume that he's going to get exiled the next turn when he is left in; every single time.) I'm just trying to point out that the cards i've stated many times now are decent early game.
You know, I made this point earlier and don't know why people don't consider synergy. With all the right cards in one deck this elemental becomes better and better. This is different from saying that a card needs to be "set up" or that it is part of a 5 card combo or something. This guy is in a pack of cards that all work so well together that any one of their individual drawbacks is negated by the shared benefits of each card.
Cards like Delver of Secrets, Runechanter's Pike, Snapcaster Mage, Nivmagus Elemental, Guttersnipe and Talrand, Sky Summoner all work together. Whether or not this Instants & Sorceries Matter Theme works out is to be determined in the meta. However, This guy cannot be evaluated on his own. If you have a scenario where you draw an instant and it flips your delver, triggers a Guttersnipe, Makes a drake token when cast, gives a Quirion Dryad a +1/+1 and is fed to your elemental than you can hardly say it was all a waste if your Quirion Dryad or Elemental dies in combat for example. Its called synergy.
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Standard:
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
Early game, it's a slightly higher bolt that you can't aim. That was what was good about Lightning Bolt. Damage doesn't matter until the opponent is dead. Also, Nivmagus is good at any point...it's a utility creature NOT an aggro creature. It can be aggressive but relying on that is a bad play, trust me.
You've pointed out exactly what i meant. It's slightly better than Lightning Bolt, even though it's not exactly aim-able.
I do agree that Nivmagus is good whenever he is put out. But he's a really good one drop to put out early so you can quickly get him to 3/4 or to 5/6 to have as either a blocker or an attacker. Depends on how you want to use him in the end.
You know, I made this point earlier and don't know why people don't consider synergy. With all the right cards in one deck this elemental becomes better and better. This is different from saying that a card needs to be "set up" or that it is part of a 5 card combo or something. This guy is in a pack of cards that all work so well together that any one of their individual drawbacks is negated by the shared benefits of each card.
Cards like Delver of Secrets, Runechanter's Pike, Snapcaster Mage, Nivmagus Elemental, Guttersnipe and Talrand, Sky Summoner all work together. Whether or not this Instants & Sorceries Matter Theme works out is to be determined in the meta. However, This guy cannot be evaluated on his own. If you have a scenario where you draw an instant and it flips your delver, triggers a Guttersnipe, Makes a drake token when cast, gives a Quirion Dryad a +1/+1 and is fed to your elemental than you can hardly say it was all a waste if your Quirion Dryad or Elemental dies in combat for example. Its called synergy.
Every card you just mentioned is neither an instant nor a sorcery. So playing them all in an instant/sorcery matters deck seems less than optimal. I'm not saying such a deck is bad (because it can be very good). I'm saying that Nivmangus is the worse than each of those creatures (except maybe Guttersnipe). You have room for 12 creatures or so. Delver is easily better. Snapcaster is essential. So you have to choose between Geist (still just too powerful to ignore), Talrand, Dryad, and Nivmangus. I would easily rank him #4 in that list.
And because you've been so rude, i'm just going to point out that this is a problematic post and get this stupid posting problem done with. It's a card, man. You can hate it, but in the end if i play it against you and you don't have removal, aren't you going to take the four now instead of letting me have a powerful creature?
Okay, ENOUGH with the Vexing Devil talk. I spent enough time to point out what was wrong with it and so did jturphy. Neither of us will derail this thread for further discussion. This thread is about Nivmagus, NOT Vexing Devil. Bring it back in.
Okay, ENOUGH with the Vexing Devil talk. I spent enough time to point out what was wrong with it and so did jturphy. Neither of us will derail this thread for further discussion. This thread is about Nivmagus, NOT Vexing Devil. Bring it back in.
I'm done with it already. I really don't want to continue with it, I used it as an example and i feel like i proved my point already. If jturphy does have to bring it back up again though, i promise i'll be reporting the post as i have already for one for problematic posts.
Cards like Delver of Secrets, Runechanter's Pike, Snapcaster Mage, Nivmagus Elemental, Guttersnipe and Talrand, Sky Summoner all work together.
My friend gave me a very similar explanation for Nivmagus Elemental's playability in standard. The fallacy in this reasoning is that you can take Nivmagus out of the equation and everything that you listed works 100% fine, if not better. Nivmagus is an unncessary addition to any of those cards and does not help flip delver, add to how much Pike will let you hit for, give more utility to Snapcaster, trigger Guttersnipe, or trigger Talrand. If you want to play such a deck, you are better off playing instants or sorceries in place of him because they directly help your game plan.
Edit: I was busy typing this up before I saw the last couple of posts. I will discontinue Vexing Devil talk so that we can continue to discuss Nivmagus.
You've pointed out exactly what i meant. It's slightly better than Lightning Bolt, even though it's not exactly aim-able.
I do agree that Nivmagus is good whenever he is put out. But he's a really good one drop to put out early so you can quickly get him to 3/4 or to 5/6 to have as either a blocker or an attacker. Depends on how you want to use him in the end.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
You know, I made this point earlier and don't know why people don't consider synergy. With all the right cards in one deck this elemental becomes better and better. This is different from saying that a card needs to be "set up" or that it is part of a 5 card combo or something. This guy is in a pack of cards that all work so well together that any one of their individual drawbacks is negated by the shared benefits of each card.
Cards like Delver of Secrets, Runechanter's Pike, Snapcaster Mage, Nivmagus Elemental, Guttersnipe and Talrand, Sky Summoner all work together. Whether or not this Instants & Sorceries Matter Theme works out is to be determined in the meta. However, This guy cannot be evaluated on his own. If you have a scenario where you draw an instant and it flips your delver, triggers a Guttersnipe, Makes a drake token when cast, gives a Quirion Dryad a +1/+1 and is fed to your elemental than you can hardly say it was all a waste if your Quirion Dryad or Elemental dies in combat for example. Its called synergy.
There might be some synergy but it's not with Runechanter's. Runechanter's would be either worthless or less powerful with the elemental. You could put this deck together and who knows, it might work out. I know they are trying to hate our normal delver so this might help but I cant see how really. Especially since the elemental isn't really synergestic, it's more vampiric.
Elixir of Immortality IS playable in limited. I know this because I've used it to not die to Sands of Delirium before. And I've had it hose me in games when I played Sands of Delirium.
I still feel that a Vexing is better in for 4 damage or a good 4/3 creature on turn one than a 3 damage instant. But that's my personal opinion.
And there is no way any of the cards you just stated are playable in limited. I mean, Elixir of Immortality would only be good if ran sideboarded in a life-gain deck if you could draw it in order to counter a mill deck. (Which is obviously really specific, and even then, it's just not that good to begin with.)
Index is just horrible in general. I mean, who would seriously play Index in a main deck or a sideboard? It would just be laughed at as most Magic players view it now.
Angel's Mercy is horrible for it's cmc. Obviously.
Every card you just mentioned is neither an instant nor a sorcery. So playing them all in an instant/sorcery matters deck seems less than optimal. I'm not saying such a deck is bad (because it can be very good). I'm saying that Nivmangus is the worse than each of those creatures (except maybe Guttersnipe). You have room for 12 creatures or so. Delver is easily better. Snapcaster is essential. So you have to choose between Geist (still just too powerful to ignore), Talrand, Dryad, and Nivmangus. I would easily rank him #4 in that list.
Wow, who do you think I am??? No, I do not think Snapcaster Mage is an Instant or a Sorcery. (I can't believe I had to say that)
What I was saying is that all of those cards are made better if they reside in a deck that plays a high number of instants or sorceries. When I flip a Delver I usually don't care what the heck flipped it. Thats the thing, these cards work so well together and I think the more synergy present in the deck, the less the individual instants and sorceries matter (although care should be taken to play with the most relevant ones.)
I will agree with you that which creatures you pick is of utmost importance since the creature count in these decks tends to be fairly low.
The exact configuration and whether this guy fits will really only be ferretted out through rigorous playtesting though.
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Standard:
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
Wow, who do you think I am??? No, I do not think Snapcaster Mage is an Instant or a Sorcery. (I can't believe I had to say that)
What I was saying is that all of those cards are made better if they reside in a deck that plays a high number of instants or sorceries. When I flip a Delver I usually don't care what the heck flipped it. Thats the thing, these cards work so well together and I think the more synergy present in the deck, the less the individual instants and sorceries matter (although care should be taken to play with the most relevant ones.)
I will agree with you that which creatures you pick is of utmost importance since the creature count in these decks tends to be fairly low.
The exact configuration and whether this guy fits will really only be ferretted out through rigorous playtesting though.
Playtesting is not something you can do for an infinite amount of time. You need to be able to look at a card and determine from it's face if it has any place in a deck at all, at least to a certain extent. It is clear from any deck that you are trying to build that Nivmagus is just inferior to any other creature you might want to play.
Jturphy has the right of it. Elemental might find a deck that uses it's unique abilities to help win matches. Delver varients aren't that deck. Delver is very synergistic. The deck likes a lot of instants and sorceries and they sometimes prefer them in the GY. This makes SCM and Runechanters better cards. So, the deck needs cards that either work really well with these spells, or the GY. The elemental doesnt allow these cards to hit the GY. It doesnt allow these spells to affect the game outside of certain tricks. These cards weren't put in for tricks, they were put in to assure this deck maintains optimum tempo while handicapping the other player. The elemental doesnt play tempo. It's a beatstick with limited tricks.
This card would have been right at home back when decks with loads of counterspells ruled. Against Draw/Go this would have been a hell of a turn 1 threat. It takes a lot of specific strategy to make this work right now, but I don't think it is impossible.
I like what you said here. The card obviously has it's limits when it comes to what it was made for. But it's definitely a "beatstick" like you said.
I ask again, what makes him a beat stick? That implies that you have a specific plan in mind and cards in mind that you want to exile to grow him. What cards are you exiling? If it's just cards that no longer serve a purpose, then he's sitting there as a 1/2 until you find that card. If it's burn, the burn is just better at his face. If you exile the burn spell, you're opening yourself up to getting 0 value from the burn spell.
So, what are you exiling that makes him a beat stick?
I ask again, what makes him a beat stick? That implies that you have a specific plan in mind and cards in mind that you want to exile to grow him. What cards are you exiling? If it's just cards that no longer serve a purpose, then he's sitting there as a 1/2 until you find that card. If it's burn, the burn is just better at his face. If you exile the burn spell, you're opening yourself up to getting 0 value from the burn spell.
So, what are you exiling that makes him a beat stick?
I personally would be using the "Pact" spells, and Phyrexian Mana cost spells. And if i can get a storm combo going with them as well, that would be nice. I think we've already gone over this though. But i don't specifically need a pact card, or a phyrexian mana card. The only cards i would definitely need in a combo would be the creature, a land (obviously), and possibly a storm card, if i want to use it in a combo with storm.
I'm not exiling burn cards such as Shock, i'm getting rid of Mutagenic Growth and making a permanent +2/+2 on my creature. There's not much i can do with phyrexian mana cost cards anyways. The only good ones i can see that i would use would be Gut Shot, Gitaxian Probe, or Mental Misstep. and even then, Misstep isn't that great of a counter. Probe is a good card though for another chance at drawing a better card, and gut shot is obviously well, gut shot.
I personally would be using the "Pact" spells, and Phyrexian Mana cost spells. And if i can get a storm combo going with them as well, that would be nice. I think we've already gone over this though. But i don't specifically need a pact card, or a phyrexian mana card. The only cards i would definitely need in a combo would be the creature, a land (obviously), and possibly a storm card, if i want to use it in a combo with storm.
I'm not exiling burn cards such as Shock, i'm getting rid of Mutagenic Growth and making a permanent +2/+2 on my creature. There's not much i can do with phyrexian mana cost cards anyways. The only good ones i can see that i would use would be Gut Shot, Gitaxian Probe, or Mental Misstep. and even then, Misstep isn't that great of a counter. Probe is a good card though for another chance at drawing a better card, and gut shot is obviously well, gut shot.
Well, Probe is banned in any format where you could actually use it with Nivmangus. And I think you'd rather just draw the card off Probe rather than get the counters more often than not. A card in your hand will always be better than a +2/+2 creature enchantment, or at least it should be. Gut Shot maybe, but again, I can see you wanting to actually kill a creature more often than you want the +2/+2 (removing a Snapcaster for instance is better than the pump). That leaves Growth, but again, it's just a "free" pump to your guy, which isn't very powerful. Same with Pacts. Free pumps just is not powerful enough. Not with cards that can chump him or easily remove him like Swords, Path, Terminate, etc.
Well, Probe is banned in any format where you could actually use it with Nivmangus. And I think you'd rather just draw the card off Probe rather than get the counters more often than not. A card in your hand will always be better than a +2/+2 creature enchantment, or at least it should be. Gut Shot maybe, but again, I can see you wanting to actually kill a creature more often than you want the +2/+2 (removing a Snapcaster for instance is better than the pump). That leaves Growth, but again, it's just a "free" pump to your guy, which isn't very powerful. Same with Pacts. Free pumps just is not powerful enough. Not with cards that can chump him or easily remove him like Swords, Path, Terminate, etc.
I could use Misstep to counter those, though. Which is where playing it for it's ability actually comes in handy. Gut Shot is iffy obviously depending on what the other player has. If i'm up against a snapcaster i would definitly gutshot it, without a doubt. But if there's not much of a use for it, then ill just have Nivmagus eat it. Nivmagus is pretty much just an eat up kinda spell. You know?
Edit:
Probe isn't banned in any formats, according to gatherer.
I could use Misstep to counter those, though. Which is where playing it for it's ability actually comes in handy. Gut Shot is iffy obviously depending on what the other player has. If i'm up against a snapcaster i would definitly gutshot it, without a doubt. But if there's not much of a use for it, then ill just have Nivmagus eat it. Nivmagus is pretty much just an eat up kinda spell. You know?
Edit:
Probe isn't banned in any formats, according to gatherer.
Correct. Sorry, I meant Misstep is banned in all formats where you can play Nivmagus.
My last post on Devil, as it is very off topic. He is worse on turn 1 than he is on turn 3. Turn 3 might be the only turn where is isn't totally worthless. 4 damage to the face is not good for one card. In fact, it's just bad.
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Early game, it's a slightly higher bolt that you can't aim. That was what was good about Lightning Bolt. Damage doesn't matter until the opponent is dead. Also, Nivmagus is good at any point...it's a utility creature NOT an aggro creature. It can be aggressive but relying on that is a bad play, trust me.
Is what I do.
So a shock or lightning bolt is better burn damage right away than a Devil on turn one? (Or we could live in the "Magical Christmas Land" and just assume that he's going to get exiled the next turn when he is left in; every single time.) I'm just trying to point out that the cards i've stated many times now are decent early game.
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Cards like Delver of Secrets, Runechanter's Pike, Snapcaster Mage, Nivmagus Elemental, Guttersnipe and Talrand, Sky Summoner all work together. Whether or not this Instants & Sorceries Matter Theme works out is to be determined in the meta. However, This guy cannot be evaluated on his own. If you have a scenario where you draw an instant and it flips your delver, triggers a Guttersnipe, Makes a drake token when cast, gives a Quirion Dryad a +1/+1 and is fed to your elemental than you can hardly say it was all a waste if your Quirion Dryad or Elemental dies in combat for example. Its called synergy.
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
You've pointed out exactly what i meant. It's slightly better than Lightning Bolt, even though it's not exactly aim-able.
I do agree that Nivmagus is good whenever he is put out. But he's a really good one drop to put out early so you can quickly get him to 3/4 or to 5/6 to have as either a blocker or an attacker. Depends on how you want to use him in the end.
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Every card you just mentioned is neither an instant nor a sorcery. So playing them all in an instant/sorcery matters deck seems less than optimal. I'm not saying such a deck is bad (because it can be very good). I'm saying that Nivmangus is the worse than each of those creatures (except maybe Guttersnipe). You have room for 12 creatures or so. Delver is easily better. Snapcaster is essential. So you have to choose between Geist (still just too powerful to ignore), Talrand, Dryad, and Nivmangus. I would easily rank him #4 in that list.
Wow.
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And because you've been so rude, i'm just going to point out that this is a problematic post and get this stupid posting problem done with. It's a card, man. You can hate it, but in the end if i play it against you and you don't have removal, aren't you going to take the four now instead of letting me have a powerful creature?
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Is what I do.
I'm done with it already. I really don't want to continue with it, I used it as an example and i feel like i proved my point already. If jturphy does have to bring it back up again though, i promise i'll be reporting the post as i have already for one for problematic posts.
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My friend gave me a very similar explanation for Nivmagus Elemental's playability in standard. The fallacy in this reasoning is that you can take Nivmagus out of the equation and everything that you listed works 100% fine, if not better. Nivmagus is an unncessary addition to any of those cards and does not help flip delver, add to how much Pike will let you hit for, give more utility to Snapcaster, trigger Guttersnipe, or trigger Talrand. If you want to play such a deck, you are better off playing instants or sorceries in place of him because they directly help your game plan.
Edit: I was busy typing this up before I saw the last couple of posts. I will discontinue Vexing Devil talk so that we can continue to discuss Nivmagus.
I'm very sorry but this is probably one of the most atrocious things that I've heard (right next to that Elixir of Immortality, Index, and Angel's Mercy are playable in limited). Lightning Bolt is strictly superior to Vexing Devil.
There might be some synergy but it's not with Runechanter's. Runechanter's would be either worthless or less powerful with the elemental. You could put this deck together and who knows, it might work out. I know they are trying to hate our normal delver so this might help but I cant see how really. Especially since the elemental isn't really synergestic, it's more vampiric.
Elixir of Immortality IS playable in limited. I know this because I've used it to not die to Sands of Delirium before. And I've had it hose me in games when I played Sands of Delirium.
You shouldn't maindeck it. But it is playable.
I still feel that a Vexing is better in for 4 damage or a good 4/3 creature on turn one than a 3 damage instant. But that's my personal opinion.
And there is no way any of the cards you just stated are playable in limited. I mean, Elixir of Immortality would only be good if ran sideboarded in a life-gain deck if you could draw it in order to counter a mill deck. (Which is obviously really specific, and even then, it's just not that good to begin with.)
Index is just horrible in general. I mean, who would seriously play Index in a main deck or a sideboard? It would just be laughed at as most Magic players view it now.
Angel's Mercy is horrible for it's cmc. Obviously.
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Wow, who do you think I am??? No, I do not think Snapcaster Mage is an Instant or a Sorcery. (I can't believe I had to say that)
What I was saying is that all of those cards are made better if they reside in a deck that plays a high number of instants or sorceries. When I flip a Delver I usually don't care what the heck flipped it. Thats the thing, these cards work so well together and I think the more synergy present in the deck, the less the individual instants and sorceries matter (although care should be taken to play with the most relevant ones.)
I will agree with you that which creatures you pick is of utmost importance since the creature count in these decks tends to be fairly low.
The exact configuration and whether this guy fits will really only be ferretted out through rigorous playtesting though.
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
Playtesting is not something you can do for an infinite amount of time. You need to be able to look at a card and determine from it's face if it has any place in a deck at all, at least to a certain extent. It is clear from any deck that you are trying to build that Nivmagus is just inferior to any other creature you might want to play.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
I like what you said here. The card obviously has it's limits when it comes to what it was made for. But it's definitely a "beatstick" like you said.
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I ask again, what makes him a beat stick? That implies that you have a specific plan in mind and cards in mind that you want to exile to grow him. What cards are you exiling? If it's just cards that no longer serve a purpose, then he's sitting there as a 1/2 until you find that card. If it's burn, the burn is just better at his face. If you exile the burn spell, you're opening yourself up to getting 0 value from the burn spell.
So, what are you exiling that makes him a beat stick?
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
I personally would be using the "Pact" spells, and Phyrexian Mana cost spells. And if i can get a storm combo going with them as well, that would be nice. I think we've already gone over this though. But i don't specifically need a pact card, or a phyrexian mana card. The only cards i would definitely need in a combo would be the creature, a land (obviously), and possibly a storm card, if i want to use it in a combo with storm.
I'm not exiling burn cards such as Shock, i'm getting rid of Mutagenic Growth and making a permanent +2/+2 on my creature. There's not much i can do with phyrexian mana cost cards anyways. The only good ones i can see that i would use would be Gut Shot, Gitaxian Probe, or Mental Misstep. and even then, Misstep isn't that great of a counter. Probe is a good card though for another chance at drawing a better card, and gut shot is obviously well, gut shot.
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Well, Probe is banned in any format where you could actually use it with Nivmangus. And I think you'd rather just draw the card off Probe rather than get the counters more often than not. A card in your hand will always be better than a +2/+2 creature enchantment, or at least it should be. Gut Shot maybe, but again, I can see you wanting to actually kill a creature more often than you want the +2/+2 (removing a Snapcaster for instance is better than the pump). That leaves Growth, but again, it's just a "free" pump to your guy, which isn't very powerful. Same with Pacts. Free pumps just is not powerful enough. Not with cards that can chump him or easily remove him like Swords, Path, Terminate, etc.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
I could use Misstep to counter those, though. Which is where playing it for it's ability actually comes in handy. Gut Shot is iffy obviously depending on what the other player has. If i'm up against a snapcaster i would definitly gutshot it, without a doubt. But if there's not much of a use for it, then ill just have Nivmagus eat it. Nivmagus is pretty much just an eat up kinda spell. You know?
Edit:
Probe isn't banned in any formats, according to gatherer.
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Correct. Sorry, I meant Misstep is banned in all formats where you can play Nivmagus.
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4x Nivmagus Elemental
4x Guttersnipe
3x Talrand
4x Wild Defiance
4x Artful Dodge
4x Giestflame
3x Flames of the Firebrand
4x Think Twice
3x Fling
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Rootbound Crag
2x Forest
5x Island
4x Mountain
Seems fun. Thoughts?
About Mindslaver rulings: