Honestly, I dont have much to say, it is a fine replacement for ponder (Toned down of course), and I wont mind playing it. I'm glad that it is this over sleight of hand, I doesnt replace itself which is rough, but scrying is never bad.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Fail. Fail More. Fail Better."
"Failure is the road to success."
My Current Decks:
Standard T2:
:symw::symwb: B/W Tokens :symbw::symb:
:symu::symbu: B/U Control + Fliers :symub::symb:
Standard T1:
:symr::symw::symb: R/B/W Vampires :symb::symw::symr:
I'm surprised they reprinted this. Weren't they considering banning Ponder? If that's true then why would they include a card that does the same thing minus the card draw? Maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't make sense to me.
It's not as good as Ponder since it doesn't draw any cards. It can flip Delver, find something you need (like a land) and setup miracles though, so I don't know. It may see play.
I have a feeling it will once ponder rotates. It does have some synergy with Thought Scour as well.
I'm surprised they reprinted this. Weren't they considering banning Ponder? If that's true then why would they include a card that does the same thing minus the card draw? Maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't make sense to me.
It's not the same thing at all; this doesn't let you draw OR shuffle.
Honestly, I dont have much to say, it is a fine replacement for ponder (Toned down of course), and I wont mind playing it. I'm glad that it is this over sleight of hand, I doesnt replace itself which is rough, but scrying is never bad.
This card doesn't scry, you can't move unwanted/bad cards to the bottom of your deck with this.
I'm surprised they reprinted this. Weren't they considering banning Ponder? If that's true then why would they include a card that does the same thing minus the card draw? Maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah this is pretty much ponders lame, dumb, deaf, and blind brother if his sister was his mother...
Isn't this just completely unplayable in any format?
It's like the worst 1-mana cantrip library manipulation of all time... except without the cantrip. Which is, you know, kind of the point.
I guess miracles.dek could play it... if you have a lot of miracles, it should pretty reliably put one on top for you, and that could be worth a card. But that's the only chance it has, and it's a slim one.
You guys were arguing that Ponder was in a way too powerful, and now we just remove the card draw and let you dig a bit deeper, and now it seems you guys are complaining that it's "unplayable"? I give up. It seems like you guys just want card draw/cantrip effects on everything. Not every card in a set is designed for the spikes.
Miracle decks will love this thing, and that's probably it, simply because digging that deep is nice for those decks that want something right away, just to set up their miracle effects. I would prefer something like Sleight of Hand though, as it seems more "balanced" than Ponder/Preordain, for lack of a better term.
Blue mages have been spoiled. It's been a long fall from Ancestral Recall to Brainstorm to Ponder. Now Index. There will be crying. There will also be library manipulation set ups for 5 turns ahead. And crying.
You guys were arguing that Ponder was in a way too powerful, and now we just remove the card draw and let you dig a bit deeper, and now it seems you guys are complaining that it's "unplayable"? I give up. It seems like you guys just want card draw/cantrip effects on everything. Not every card in a set is designed for the spikes.
Miracle decks will love this thing, and that's probably it, simply because digging that deep is nice for those decks that want something right away, just to set up their miracle effects.
Removing the card draw is a huge deal on a card where the point is that it doesn't cost you a card.
And no, we don't want draw/cantrip on everything, but on cantrip effects? Yeah, that's why they're playable in the first place.
Heck, I agree that the majority of things aren't (and should not be) made for Spike, but who is going to play this? Timmy's not interested in this kind of effect, and Johnny or Spike might be, but on a card this weak it's only for bad Johnnies and bad Spikes (who exist, and it's fine that cards are made for them, so it's no problem that this card exists... but that still doesn't make it playable).
The one shred of playability it might have is, as mentioned, in the all-miracle deck, and I'm sure people will try it. Even there I doubt it will actually be good.
Removing the card draw is a huge deal on a card where the point is that it doesn't cost you a card.
And no, we don't want draw/cantrip on everything, but on cantrip effects? Yeah, that's why they're playable in the first place.
Heck, I agree that the majority of things aren't (and should not be) made for Spike, but who is going to play this? Timmy's not interested in this kind of effect, and Johnny or Spike might be, but on a card this weak it's only for bad Johnnies and bad Spikes (who exist, and it's fine that cards are made for them, so it's no problem that this card exists... but that still doesn't make it playable).
The one shred of playability it might have is, as mentioned, in the all-miracle deck, and I'm sure people will try it. Even there I doubt it will actually be good.
I really don't know what you're saying but it sounds correct. Miracles lose to counters so hard that it will be difficult for them to get a good foothold in the meta, Index or otherwise. I think the idea was that they didn't want to have ponder and another efficient manipulation/cantrip card in T2 at one time as that would make Delver-like decks extremely powerful.
I believe we will see something better in RtR and if that is true, I am not mad about index at all.
This card exists because 1. R&D wanted the option to be around in Standard; a core set without some library manipulation card would be a very strange core set indeed; and 2. It's a bad common for Limited. Those actually need to exist.
It's not good, it won't see play, losing Ponder will make Delver worse, the end.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On average, Magic players are worse at new card evaluation than almost every other skill, except perhaps sideboarding.
I really don't know what you're saying but it sounds correct. Miracles lose to counters so hard that it will be difficult for them to get a good foothold in the meta, Index or otherwise. I think the idea was that they didn't want to have ponder and another efficient manipulation/cantrip card in T2 at one time as that would make Delver-like decks extremely powerful.
I believe we will see something better in RtR and if that is true, I am not mad about index at all.
Oh yeah, I'm not mad about Index. I understand the many reasons bad cards exist, and I don't care when they print a bad card.
I just wanted to clear up that this is, in fact, a bad card. If it did draw a card, it would still probably be worse than Ponder in everything except Miracles (because you can't shuffle, so when you see a bunch of crap on top of your library you're stuck with it). And Ponder without card draw would be garbage. So... take a garbage card and make it worse. Yeah.
The only reason to play something like this is if you have a REALLY good reason to want something specific on top of your deck, but not a combo (since you can't throw the cards back if half your combo is still missing). Miracles are just about the only thing that fits that description.
(Edit: If they do something crazy and unexpected like reprinting fetchlands in RtR, then this might be worth another look in Standard, but there's no way that's happening)
Yeah, this card is very, very bad. It is unplayable in Limited, Standard, Extended, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, Pauper, EDH, Standard Pauper, Standard EDH, Standard Pauper EDH, and every other format. It is one of those cards that is virtually guaranteed to be tied for the worst card in any set it is printed in, except of course for Apocalypse, where it was originally printed, because Apocalypse also had Tahngarth's Glare.
"But I have a shuffle effect!"
No, sorry. It's still unplayable.
"But I have Miracles!"
Just like Ponder, this card has no special interaction with Miracles. However, while Ponder is good on its own merits, this card is bad.
"But isn't it good to be able to plan out the next five turns?"
Not if you have to mulligan in order to do it.
"But Snapcaster Mage!"
Would you play a 3-mana Sage Owl, ever?
This card is unplayable in anything that isn't Miracle.dek, and even there I don't expect it to be that good.
It's no Ponder, but it's potentially slightly playable in any deck that runs cards which let you shuffle pretty regularly. Stuff like GSZ (or any of the other Zeniths), Pod, Borderland Ranger, Rampant Growth, Evolving Wilds, etc.
"But isn't it good to be able to plan out the next five turns?"
Not if you have to mulligan in order to do it.
If your mulligan literally nets you the exact same hand minus a card, then this analogy works 100%. Except for the part where mulligans don't do that often and might often yield a better hand than an opening hand. I'd rather have a 6 card hand with stuff I can actually use than a 7 card hand that durdles for three turns before doing anything or banks on drawing a land, which might not even happen.
I agree with your points, so I'll just put this bluntly: Blue mages need to be put in their place. This card is bad, but blue needs to be powered down a bit.
Yeah, this card is very, very bad. It is unplayable in Limited, Standard, Extended, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, Pauper, EDH, Standard Pauper, Standard EDH, Standard Pauper EDH, and every other format. It is one of those cards that is virtually guaranteed to be tied for the worst card in any set it is printed in, except of course for Apocalypse, where it was originally printed, because Apocalypse also had Tahngarth's Glare.
"But I have a shuffle effect!"
No, sorry. It's still unplayable.
"But I have Miracles!"
Just like Ponder, this card has no special interaction with Miracles. However, while Ponder is good on its own merits, this card is bad.
"But isn't it good to be able to plan out the next five turns?"
Not if you have to mulligan in order to do it.
"But Snapcaster Mage!"
Would you play a 3-mana Sage Owl, ever?
I don't entirely agree. Sure, the cards isn't great, but it seems at least okay in decks that naturally shuffle a lot (like Pod, especially pod running GSZ), and it does have synergy with Miracles precisely because it doesn't cantrip.
In response to your third point, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at... why would that necessitate a mulligan?
And no, I wouldn't run a 3-mana Sage Owl, but I might run a 1-mana Sage Owl that can be flashed back as a 3-mana Sage Owl.
Index is terrible, it's not going to replace ponder. So many people here don't userstand why ponder is good and it's mind boggling. Index isn't even close. Reach through mists is a better card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
All of the people on here that think that cards like Index are anything other than complete trash are the reason that no one takes card evaluation/strategy talks on here seriously.
Index is garbage. In every sense of the word. Sleight of Hand is >>>>>> over Index, and saying it is anywhere near Ponder is completely laughable. It will never see play. Ever. Impulse would have been fine, but Index is a depressingly bad joke.
Just saw this show up on the spoiler. Looks like that's our new library manipulation spell. Discuss...
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
"Failure is the road to success."
My Current Decks:
:symw::symwb: B/W Tokens :symbw::symb:
:symu::symbu: B/U Control + Fliers :symub::symb:
Standard T1:
:symr::symw::symb: R/B/W Vampires :symb::symw::symr:
Modern:
:symr::snow::symr: Mono-Red Goblins :symr::snow::symr:
Everything Pauper:
Naya Nacatl Aggro
GENERATION 14: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
That's kind of what I was thinking Helps Delver as well.
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
I have a feeling it will once ponder rotates. It does have some synergy with Thought Scour as well.
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
It's not the same thing at all; this doesn't let you draw OR shuffle.
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
This card doesn't scry, you can't move unwanted/bad cards to the bottom of your deck with this.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Yeah this is pretty much ponders lame, dumb, deaf, and blind brother if his sister was his mother...
It's like the worst 1-mana cantrip library manipulation of all time... except without the cantrip. Which is, you know, kind of the point.
I guess miracles.dek could play it... if you have a lot of miracles, it should pretty reliably put one on top for you, and that could be worth a card. But that's the only chance it has, and it's a slim one.
Miracle decks will love this thing, and that's probably it, simply because digging that deep is nice for those decks that want something right away, just to set up their miracle effects. I would prefer something like Sleight of Hand though, as it seems more "balanced" than Ponder/Preordain, for lack of a better term.
Removing the card draw is a huge deal on a card where the point is that it doesn't cost you a card.
And no, we don't want draw/cantrip on everything, but on cantrip effects? Yeah, that's why they're playable in the first place.
Heck, I agree that the majority of things aren't (and should not be) made for Spike, but who is going to play this? Timmy's not interested in this kind of effect, and Johnny or Spike might be, but on a card this weak it's only for bad Johnnies and bad Spikes (who exist, and it's fine that cards are made for them, so it's no problem that this card exists... but that still doesn't make it playable).
The one shred of playability it might have is, as mentioned, in the all-miracle deck, and I'm sure people will try it. Even there I doubt it will actually be good.
I really don't know what you're saying but it sounds correct. Miracles lose to counters so hard that it will be difficult for them to get a good foothold in the meta, Index or otherwise. I think the idea was that they didn't want to have ponder and another efficient manipulation/cantrip card in T2 at one time as that would make Delver-like decks extremely powerful.
I believe we will see something better in RtR and if that is true, I am not mad about index at all.
It's not good, it won't see play, losing Ponder will make Delver worse, the end.
Oh yeah, I'm not mad about Index. I understand the many reasons bad cards exist, and I don't care when they print a bad card.
I just wanted to clear up that this is, in fact, a bad card. If it did draw a card, it would still probably be worse than Ponder in everything except Miracles (because you can't shuffle, so when you see a bunch of crap on top of your library you're stuck with it). And Ponder without card draw would be garbage. So... take a garbage card and make it worse. Yeah.
The only reason to play something like this is if you have a REALLY good reason to want something specific on top of your deck, but not a combo (since you can't throw the cards back if half your combo is still missing). Miracles are just about the only thing that fits that description.
(Edit: If they do something crazy and unexpected like reprinting fetchlands in RtR, then this might be worth another look in Standard, but there's no way that's happening)
"But I have a shuffle effect!"
No, sorry. It's still unplayable.
"But I have Miracles!"
Just like Ponder, this card has no special interaction with Miracles. However, while Ponder is good on its own merits, this card is bad.
"But isn't it good to be able to plan out the next five turns?"
Not if you have to mulligan in order to do it.
"But Snapcaster Mage!"
Would you play a 3-mana Sage Owl, ever?
It's no Ponder, but it's potentially slightly playable in any deck that runs cards which let you shuffle pretty regularly. Stuff like GSZ (or any of the other Zeniths), Pod, Borderland Ranger, Rampant Growth, Evolving Wilds, etc.
If your mulligan literally nets you the exact same hand minus a card, then this analogy works 100%. Except for the part where mulligans don't do that often and might often yield a better hand than an opening hand. I'd rather have a 6 card hand with stuff I can actually use than a 7 card hand that durdles for three turns before doing anything or banks on drawing a land, which might not even happen.
I agree with your points, so I'll just put this bluntly: Blue mages need to be put in their place. This card is bad, but blue needs to be powered down a bit.
I don't entirely agree. Sure, the cards isn't great, but it seems at least okay in decks that naturally shuffle a lot (like Pod, especially pod running GSZ), and it does have synergy with Miracles precisely because it doesn't cantrip.
In response to your third point, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at... why would that necessitate a mulligan?
And no, I wouldn't run a 3-mana Sage Owl, but I might run a 1-mana Sage Owl that can be flashed back as a 3-mana Sage Owl.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
Index is garbage. In every sense of the word. Sleight of Hand is >>>>>> over Index, and saying it is anywhere near Ponder is completely laughable. It will never see play. Ever. Impulse would have been fine, but Index is a depressingly bad joke.