Deck looks good, but it kinda seems to want some mana leaks to sustain the assault from turns 2-4 when you're able to triumph. Not sure what I'd cut to make room though, maybe some mycosynth fiends since they are unable to hit for infect until you have the mana to triumph. You might even be able to cut them altogether or replace them with something like cystbearer who is same cost with infect.
EDIT: EternalLurker, Mycosynth is great with triumph of the hordes because it sits back until it's beefy from poison counters then hits in hard with trample and infect. Also, I don't think Melira needs to be main, at least with the current meta. Definitely a sideboard 4 of for the mirror match, but maybe it might go maindeck when this set drops and alters the meta.
@ Fumar: and run stuff like terramorphic expanse instead?
@ Eternalurker: Holding down the fort? That is really one of two of my only reasons for keeping it in.
@ Snakestream: So should I instead cut some Corrupted Resolve in favor of Mana Leaks? As for the fiend, I kind of like it as it has nice synergy with the blighted agent.
Don't cut the misty rainforests; you need them for mana stabalization. Terramorphic is awful for your deck because it puts you back a turn, and if you make it to turn 5-6, you've already lost. This deck is not something that survives for long after jace and titan mana gets up. Maybe cut corrupted resolve for mana leak and sideboard the resolves for if you play something that holds your guys back with walls.
The way I see this deck playing is that you need to throw down your creatures ASAP and counter any creatures they start playing, especially walls. This is a deck that doesn't have an endgame really, so the longer the game goes, the worse off you are. Given that though, I think this is a really good deck, and I'm going to probably start playing around with it myself once this set drops. It's a nice infect aggro that theoretically is very sound.
Swarmlord is too expensive for your main; maybe Vines or Groundswell to get you there? Groundswell works well with your cracklands.
EDIT: Forgot about this, but maybe you should throw in some Inkmoth Nexus's; they could get you the last couple of poison counters. You need them for the mana to put on your initial aggression, but if your T4 overrun can't hit in for lethal, these could put you in for the finishing touch. I don't think you need 4 of them though, maybe just 3 and cut one of each of your other lands, or swap them in for swarmlord and 1 misty.
You may not always need the swarmlord to push through and I do like the choice of the Ascetism. So for the sideboard I also suggest this.
-1 Phyrexian Swarmlord
+1 Ascetiscm.
I understand that the Fiend gets pretty big in a deck like this, but without a way to give him infect, he's kind of just a big dummy that sits there. That means you have to have the Triumph to make him useful. That being said, if he needs the Triumph, the Triumph isn't all that useful outside of Fiend. Your creatures are all pretty small, so even with +2/+2 they will be smaller than a lot of the creatures with Swords and such.
If you cut both of those cards it gives you access to more disruption or other better ways to finish them off. There's little reason not to run Jace if you're in blue, and Contagion Clasp provides an early response to birds or other small creatures, and late game gives you an extra proliferator.
What 1 CMC cards are you worried about to run the Misstep? Spell Pierce or the new Poison counter just seem better for that spot.
Finally, as opposed to the Swarmlord you should have Putrefax. It is a one shot card, but it comes with trample. The 1/1's you are creating are not all that helpful after turn 6, and you are not bringing him into play on turn 2 through reanimation.
I understand that the Fiend gets pretty big in a deck like this, but without a way to give him infect, he's kind of just a big dummy that sits there. That means you have to have the Triumph to make him useful. That being said, if he needs the Triumph, the Triumph isn't all that useful outside of Fiend. Your creatures are all pretty small, so even with +2/+2 from Mutagenic Growth they will be smaller than a lot of the creatures with Swords and such.
Like Origin said. Hes there to hold down the fort. If Origin were to say Glistener Elf + Mutagenic Growth a person with no turn-1-drop creature, that is +3 poison. On turn three if Origin did so happen to get the Blighted Agent the previous turn and swing with it on turn three, that would make the Fiend a 6/6 on turn 3. Even if Mutagenic Growth did not happen but the opponent did get two poison counters in the course of three turns, it would be a 4/4 which is still very good for a turn three drop.
Aside from the Blighted Agent, this deck looks like it wants to play defensively in order to kill.
If you cut both of those cards it gives you access to more disruption or other better ways to finish them off. There's little reason not to run Jace if you're in blue, and Contagion Clasp provides an early response to birds or other small creatures, and late game gives you an extra proliferator.
I'm pretty sure Origin knows about JTMS when looking at her Join Date. Who wouldn't have heard about that walker can only be summed up as that indidvual is a very new player who knows barely anything. Also why cut the Mutagenics and Triumphs?
What 1 CMC cards are you worried about to run the Misstep? Spell Pierce or the new Poison counter just seem better for that spot.
Well there is Surgical Extraction that could wipe away anything that is in Origin's graveyard.
Finally, as opposed to the Swarmlord you should have Putrefax. It is a one shot card, but it comes with trample. The 1/1's you are creating are not all that helpful after turn 6, and you are not bringing him into play on turn 2 through reanimation.
And this is where I get confused. You suggest that the pump spell and overrun-variant be taken out which makes the deck even more reliant on being more defensive and slow. Yet then you suggest Putrefax, a card that wants to be in a deck that wants to be in a fast aggro deck.
Like Origin said. Hes there to hold down the fort. If Origin were to say Glistener Elf + Mutagenic Growth a person with no turn-1-drop creature, that is +3 poison. On turn three if Origin did so happen to get the Blighted Agent the previous turn and swing with it on turn three, that would make the Fiend a 6/6 on turn 3. Even if Mutagenic Growth did not happen but the opponent did get two poison counters in the course of three turns, it would be a 4/4 which is still very good for a turn three drop.
Aside from the Blighted Agent, this deck looks like it wants to play defensively in order to kill.
I'm pretty sure Origin knows about JTMS when looking at her Join Date. Who wouldn't have heard about that walker can only be summed up as that indidvual is a very new player who knows barely anything. Also why cut the Mutagenics and Triumphs?
Well there is Surgical Extraction that could wipe away anything that is in Origin's graveyard.
And this is where I get confused. You suggest that the pump spell and overrun-variant be taken out which makes the deck even more reliant on being more defensive and slow. Yet then you suggest Putrefax, a card that wants to be in a deck that wants to be in a fast aggro deck.
My 2 Cents.
My argument is that the deck should not be a defensive deck. Why are you running a card that is only useful as a blocker or useful with some other card? If the idea of the deck is to only be casual, then sure, but if you're trying to win some games against top decks, it doesn't make sense. Blue/Green poison needs to be aggro early, and some form of reach later. The Triumphs is just a bad way to get that reach. Proliferate would just be better. If you really want the Triumphs effect, run Garruk and only infect creatures.
As for the Extraction, so what? If they want to cast extraction against this deck, I'd be happy. What are they going to take that I'm worried about. Pierce or the poison counter are so much better. Other than a turn one extraction off of discard, which is going to be rare I'm never gonna want to counter it anyway.
I would drop the Swarmlords and Mycosynth Fiend, consider Putrefax as it will allow you instantly kill someone off of a blank board. I will come down that you don't want to be playing defense with the Fiends and the Swarmlord is so slooow (it comes out on turn 6, produces a token on 7 (if it lives) and it can attack on turn 8), if you want to put a few infecters on the board suddenly, I would go with Carrion Call (but I am not a huge fan of that method/card).
With that said then with the Fiends gone and Swarmlord gone there is little reason for Triumph of the Hordes. I would consider a few Vines of Vastwood as other options as making a Blighted Agent immune to Go for the Throat and pumping it to 5 will end things quickly. I personally like a few Ichorclaw Myr and then as a finisher a Mortarpod might be reasonable against removal. They kill your critter, you give them a poison counter.
EDIT: EternalLurker, Mycosynth is great with triumph of the hordes because it sits back until it's beefy from poison counters then hits in hard with trample and infect.
And is utterly useless without Triumph. My point stands: the card does not fit in an infect deck and is just generally awful.
And is utterly useless without Triumph. My point stands: the card does not fit in an infect deck and is just generally awful.
If you are using the fiends to "hold down the fort," you are in trouble. 2 of the 3 swords in the Standard give pro Green, so they just walk right by. Any flyers will just fly right over. Titans laugh because they got two triggers off even if they lost their Titan in the process. Against Valakut that means you lost 12 life and the next mountain takes you to 2. Against Grave Titan you still have 4 2/2 tokens to deal with. Frost Titan is just tapping him anyway. He is laughable at playing defense.
If you need something to hold down the fort, play Wall of Tanglecord, at least it blocks flyers and creatures with swords.
What format you do you plan on playing this in? Ill help you out this deck seems all over the place but i need to know if it a FNM standard deck or something else.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
I agree Lurker, Mycosynth Fiend does not go in the deck; I was just stating why someone might put it in there. Would not cut the Mutagenic Growth's as they are absolutely ridiculous. If you can fit it in, you might even consider Tezzeret's Gambit for card draw as this is an extremely aggressive deck that will likely need to reload even as short as turn 3. I like the idea of triumph in this deck, but the more I think about it, the less I see the need for it. I would actually swap in Vines or Groundswell for it. I don't see an excessive NEED for Jace in this deck, but Jace is good in any deck that runs blue, so if you have in, you might as well put him in there. Also, Putrefax is a better finisher than Swarmlord.
Yes I'm aware of JTWS, I cannot afford him. It would be wasteful of me now to try and pick him up because he is only going to be around in T2 for seven more months. I also want to avoid JTWS like the plague as I always hear how I must add it to any blue deck I ever construct.
This is a FNM deck that I want to try playing standard with.
I have done a bit of revision to my updated decklist and added a secondary decklist both with different goals and different play styles but both still follow under the deck title: Simic Pandemic.
also, am I the only one who doesn't see a connection between Phyrexian Swamplord and Triumph of the Hordes? It feels like in that situation Overwhelming Stampede would be the straight up better option.
See Triumph of the Hordes works best as an Overrun when your army doesn't already have infect. Go White Sun's Zenith during the end phase, followed by a Triumph of the Hordes and you can attack with a pretty substantial force. In that situation the Infect acts as almost as double strike, making each point of damage that much more powerful. That's why it only gives +1/+1, because the Infect turns that into +2/+2.
But if all your guys have infect already... then it doesn't do too much. You paid 4 mana to give all your creatures a Glorious Anthem for a turn. Overwhelming Stampede could give all your guys +4/+4 which with the Infect would act like +8/+8.
I like the new aggro version a lot better than original. A few things I would think about.
Cystbearer - If you're dead set on having a 3 drop, I'd go with Rot Wolf. The extra point of toughness isn't necessary, and Rot Wolf's ability could be useful. In general, I'd just cut out the 3 drop creature entirely for something else as I don't think the 3 drop infectors in green or blue are playable enough in Standard.
Arm With Aether - Might be decent in the board, but main deck has a lot of problems. Against Caw Blade do you really want to bounce a forger back to the hand, and the birds are small enough that they don't care too much. It might be good against Kuldotha Red, but other than that I don't see too much of a place.
Gitaxian Probe - I'm not sure if this is the kind of deck for it. You're not too worried about making your deck 56 cards. Preordain would be better card drawing.
I really liked your 6 counterspells in the first build, and think it would be useful to put a few back in. The poison counterspell especially. Its better than Mana Leak in this deck. If you haven't dealt a poison counter by turn 4 or 5 when you're gonna keep counter mana open, you've probably lost already anyway. I would go with 4 of those and 2-3 Mana Leak.
As for any other spots, I would say Mortapod as noted by someone else above, or Clasp. Both provide a little disruption early, and provide the extra few poison counters late.
Updated the offensive version of Simic Pandemic. I assume since no posts have been said about the Defensive version of Simic Pandemic, that it has become a deck that doesn't require to much editing.
Gitaxian Probe has been good to me so far. As for Arm With Aether, just toying around atm with New Phyrexian spells.
On the defensive list, training grounds is strictly bad if you're only using it for one guy (viral drake). Also, you don't really need the gitaxian probes here as you're not going to be terribly worried about combat tricks, so I'd swap out the probes for corrupted resolves, and I'd swap out the training grounds for contagion clasps or some other form of removal, maybe even tumble magnets what with your strong proliferate action.
EDIT: Also, for sideboard action, I'm not entirely sure, but I'm thinking you need for counters to keep your walls up, or maybe spot removal to deal with threats. Mental Misstep 4 of almost seems like a given as it'll keep aggro red from hitting you early with goblin guides and bushwhackers. Asceticism seems like an okay card for the sideboard, but you should really throw in 4 beast withins for the SB, if not main. The card is just awesome permanent removal for negligible costs, especially with your strong defensive force. Glistener elf doesn't seem all that good for defense though; maybe cut it out for some walls of tanglecord.
New update for the defensive version. I was thinking of using Turn the Tide. Which does heavily nerf one of those all out assaults that aggro decks try.
I agree Lurker, Mycosynth Fiend does not go in the deck; I was just stating why someone might put it in there. Would not cut the Mutagenic Growth's as they are absolutely ridiculous. If you can fit it in, you might even consider Tezzeret's Gambit for card draw as this is an extremely aggressive deck that will likely need to reload even as short as turn 3. I like the idea of triumph in this deck, but the more I think about it, the less I see the need for it. I would actually swap in Vines or Groundswell for it. I don't see an excessive NEED for Jace in this deck, but Jace is good in any deck that runs blue, so if you have in, you might as well put him in there. Also, Putrefax is a better finisher than Swarmlord.
The Mutagenics are great in a deck like this. It allows for a lot of things in the early turns. You can activate Inkmoth turn 2 and pump it. You can pump the turn 1 green guy and still be able to drop something turn 2. Late game its almost strictly worse than any other pump spell, but the aggro deck wants to get them to 7-8 poison counters as fast as possible without hurting tempo too much. Mutagenics does this.
10 Forest
6 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
Creatures
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
4 Mycosynth Fiend
4 Viral Drake
2 Melira, Sylvox Outcast
4 Triumph of the Hordes
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
Instants
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mutagenic Growth
3 Mental Misstep
3 Corrupted Resolve
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Corrupted Resolve
1 Mental Misstep
11 ? ? ?
6 Forest
9 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
4 Viral Drake
4 Thrummingbird
2 Norn's Annex
Enchantments
4 Training Grounds
Sorceries
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
Instants
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Fog
4 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
4 Corrupted Resolve
4 Mental Misstep
3 Asceticism
9 Forest
5 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Inkmoth Nexus
Artifacts
2 Contagion Clasp
Creatures
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
4 Viral Drake
3 Putrefax
3 Arm With Aether
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
Instants
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mutagenic Growth
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Mana Leak
3 Corrupted Resolve
4 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
4 Mental Misstep
1 Corrupted Resolve
1 Mana Leak
2 Asceticism
2 ? ? ?
EDIT: EternalLurker, Mycosynth is great with triumph of the hordes because it sits back until it's beefy from poison counters then hits in hard with trample and infect. Also, I don't think Melira needs to be main, at least with the current meta. Definitely a sideboard 4 of for the mirror match, but maybe it might go maindeck when this set drops and alters the meta.
@ Eternalurker: Holding down the fort? That is really one of two of my only reasons for keeping it in.
@ Snakestream: So should I instead cut some Corrupted Resolve in favor of Mana Leaks? As for the fiend, I kind of like it as it has nice synergy with the blighted agent.
The way I see this deck playing is that you need to throw down your creatures ASAP and counter any creatures they start playing, especially walls. This is a deck that doesn't have an endgame really, so the longer the game goes, the worse off you are. Given that though, I think this is a really good deck, and I'm going to probably start playing around with it myself once this set drops. It's a nice infect aggro that theoretically is very sound.
MD
+3 Mana Leak
+2 Phyrexian Swarmlord
-3 Corrupted Resolve
-2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
SB
+3 Corrupted Resolve
+2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
+2 Phyrexian Swarmlord
+2 Asceticism
EDIT: Forgot about this, but maybe you should throw in some Inkmoth Nexus's; they could get you the last couple of poison counters. You need them for the mana to put on your initial aggression, but if your T4 overrun can't hit in for lethal, these could put you in for the finishing touch. I don't think you need 4 of them though, maybe just 3 and cut one of each of your other lands, or swap them in for swarmlord and 1 misty.
MD
+3 Inkmoth Nexus
-1 Forest
-1 Island
-1 Triumph of the Hordes
SB
+1 Triumph of the Hordes
-1 Phyrexian Swarmlord
+1 Ascetiscm.
I understand that the Fiend gets pretty big in a deck like this, but without a way to give him infect, he's kind of just a big dummy that sits there. That means you have to have the Triumph to make him useful. That being said, if he needs the Triumph, the Triumph isn't all that useful outside of Fiend. Your creatures are all pretty small, so even with +2/+2 they will be smaller than a lot of the creatures with Swords and such.
If you cut both of those cards it gives you access to more disruption or other better ways to finish them off. There's little reason not to run Jace if you're in blue, and Contagion Clasp provides an early response to birds or other small creatures, and late game gives you an extra proliferator.
What 1 CMC cards are you worried about to run the Misstep? Spell Pierce or the new Poison counter just seem better for that spot.
Finally, as opposed to the Swarmlord you should have Putrefax. It is a one shot card, but it comes with trample. The 1/1's you are creating are not all that helpful after turn 6, and you are not bringing him into play on turn 2 through reanimation.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Like Origin said. Hes there to hold down the fort. If Origin were to say Glistener Elf + Mutagenic Growth a person with no turn-1-drop creature, that is +3 poison. On turn three if Origin did so happen to get the Blighted Agent the previous turn and swing with it on turn three, that would make the Fiend a 6/6 on turn 3. Even if Mutagenic Growth did not happen but the opponent did get two poison counters in the course of three turns, it would be a 4/4 which is still very good for a turn three drop.
Aside from the Blighted Agent, this deck looks like it wants to play defensively in order to kill.
I'm pretty sure Origin knows about JTMS when looking at her Join Date. Who wouldn't have heard about that walker can only be summed up as that indidvual is a very new player who knows barely anything. Also why cut the Mutagenics and Triumphs?
Well there is Surgical Extraction that could wipe away anything that is in Origin's graveyard.
And this is where I get confused. You suggest that the pump spell and overrun-variant be taken out which makes the deck even more reliant on being more defensive and slow. Yet then you suggest Putrefax, a card that wants to be in a deck that wants to be in a fast aggro deck.
My 2 Cents.
My argument is that the deck should not be a defensive deck. Why are you running a card that is only useful as a blocker or useful with some other card? If the idea of the deck is to only be casual, then sure, but if you're trying to win some games against top decks, it doesn't make sense. Blue/Green poison needs to be aggro early, and some form of reach later. The Triumphs is just a bad way to get that reach. Proliferate would just be better. If you really want the Triumphs effect, run Garruk and only infect creatures.
As for the Extraction, so what? If they want to cast extraction against this deck, I'd be happy. What are they going to take that I'm worried about. Pierce or the poison counter are so much better. Other than a turn one extraction off of discard, which is going to be rare I'm never gonna want to counter it anyway.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
With that said then with the Fiends gone and Swarmlord gone there is little reason for Triumph of the Hordes. I would consider a few Vines of Vastwood as other options as making a Blighted Agent immune to Go for the Throat and pumping it to 5 will end things quickly. I personally like a few Ichorclaw Myr and then as a finisher a Mortarpod might be reasonable against removal. They kill your critter, you give them a poison counter.
If you are using the fiends to "hold down the fort," you are in trouble. 2 of the 3 swords in the Standard give pro Green, so they just walk right by. Any flyers will just fly right over. Titans laugh because they got two triggers off even if they lost their Titan in the process. Against Valakut that means you lost 12 life and the next mountain takes you to 2. Against Grave Titan you still have 4 2/2 tokens to deal with. Frost Titan is just tapping him anyway. He is laughable at playing defense.
If you need something to hold down the fort, play Wall of Tanglecord, at least it blocks flyers and creatures with swords.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
This is a FNM deck that I want to try playing standard with.
I have done a bit of revision to my updated decklist and added a secondary decklist both with different goals and different play styles but both still follow under the deck title: Simic Pandemic.
(@ Life Weaver: I don't need White Knighting)
See Triumph of the Hordes works best as an Overrun when your army doesn't already have infect. Go White Sun's Zenith during the end phase, followed by a Triumph of the Hordes and you can attack with a pretty substantial force. In that situation the Infect acts as almost as double strike, making each point of damage that much more powerful. That's why it only gives +1/+1, because the Infect turns that into +2/+2.
But if all your guys have infect already... then it doesn't do too much. You paid 4 mana to give all your creatures a Glorious Anthem for a turn. Overwhelming Stampede could give all your guys +4/+4 which with the Infect would act like +8/+8.
Cystbearer - If you're dead set on having a 3 drop, I'd go with Rot Wolf. The extra point of toughness isn't necessary, and Rot Wolf's ability could be useful. In general, I'd just cut out the 3 drop creature entirely for something else as I don't think the 3 drop infectors in green or blue are playable enough in Standard.
Arm With Aether - Might be decent in the board, but main deck has a lot of problems. Against Caw Blade do you really want to bounce a forger back to the hand, and the birds are small enough that they don't care too much. It might be good against Kuldotha Red, but other than that I don't see too much of a place.
Gitaxian Probe - I'm not sure if this is the kind of deck for it. You're not too worried about making your deck 56 cards. Preordain would be better card drawing.
I really liked your 6 counterspells in the first build, and think it would be useful to put a few back in. The poison counterspell especially. Its better than Mana Leak in this deck. If you haven't dealt a poison counter by turn 4 or 5 when you're gonna keep counter mana open, you've probably lost already anyway. I would go with 4 of those and 2-3 Mana Leak.
As for any other spots, I would say Mortapod as noted by someone else above, or Clasp. Both provide a little disruption early, and provide the extra few poison counters late.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Gitaxian Probe has been good to me so far. As for Arm With Aether, just toying around atm with New Phyrexian spells.
EDIT: Also, for sideboard action, I'm not entirely sure, but I'm thinking you need for counters to keep your walls up, or maybe spot removal to deal with threats. Mental Misstep 4 of almost seems like a given as it'll keep aggro red from hitting you early with goblin guides and bushwhackers. Asceticism seems like an okay card for the sideboard, but you should really throw in 4 beast withins for the SB, if not main. The card is just awesome permanent removal for negligible costs, especially with your strong defensive force. Glistener elf doesn't seem all that good for defense though; maybe cut it out for some walls of tanglecord.
-4 Training Grounds
+4 Turn the Tide
SB Change (DSP)
+3 Mental Misstep
+1 Asceticism
New update for the defensive version. I was thinking of using Turn the Tide. Which does heavily nerf one of those all out assaults that aggro decks try.
The Mutagenics are great in a deck like this. It allows for a lot of things in the early turns. You can activate Inkmoth turn 2 and pump it. You can pump the turn 1 green guy and still be able to drop something turn 2. Late game its almost strictly worse than any other pump spell, but the aggro deck wants to get them to 7-8 poison counters as fast as possible without hurting tempo too much. Mutagenics does this.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!