Not to say that this deck could break Standard wide open like the one I'm about to use in an analogy, but someone could have walked in to this forum with a primordial Caw-Blade build to be met with the same cries of, "It'll never work!" by half the people here.
Some folks would give it an honest consideration and see its merits, many would shoot it down as soon as they saw a weakness in a single card in the build, but then inevitably, once it started showing promise, the majority would forget its simple origins here and then get right to copying the heck out of it.
Umm, I hate to break the parade, but this combo doesn't work.
Unlike Conspiracy, Species Transplantation only affects Creatures as it is worded right now, meaning only creatures in play. What will happen is that the Wolf Token comes into play as a wolf and then immediately becomes an Ally Wolf, but too late to trigger "If an Ally comes into play"
Could we address this?
The way I see it, since Species Transplantation makes it so that creatures you control are the chosen type, wouldn't a creature entering the battlefield then enter the battlefield as the chosen type, thus in this combo triggering the Turntimber Ranger's ability if Ally was the type chosen? I don't think it works such that the creature is its original type for any amount of time in the game state, since as it enters the battlefield it is a creature you control, thus it is a creature of that type. I could be wrong though.
"When X enters the battlefield" triggers do count effects that modify objects on the battlefield, because they don't trigger until the object is actually on the battlefield, and therefore already being affected by the modifying ability. When the Wolf token is created, the new object placed on the battlefield is already made into a Wolf Ally when the trigger event is put onto the stack.
That was probably worded a lot more confusingly than it actually is.
Why do people always think that bringing up the fact that there is removal invalidates things? There is always removal! This won't reach tier 1 level for sure but with the right cards and good building it can be fun and it can win.
You are playing blue. Play mana leak. Hmm, that stops disfigure right? Not to mention the already spoiled spellspitter. He eats most removal too right?
Point is, there are ways to protect your combo in standard.
Again, I am not saying its going to be a meta changing deck for a few months while its legal but it will get played and maybe, just maybe someone will break it wide open.
I personally like to play rogue decks at fnm and just have fun. I'll be building a deck with this in it for sure.
Why do people always think that bringing up the fact that there is removal invalidates things? There is always removal! This won't reach tier 1 level for sure but with the right cards and good building it can be fun and it can win.
You are playing blue. Play mana leak. Hmm, that stops disfigure right? Not to mention the already spoiled spellspitter. He eats most removal too right?
Point is, there are ways to protect your combo in standard.
Again, I am not saying its going to be a meta changing deck for a few months while its legal but it will get played and maybe, just maybe someone will break it wide open.
I personally like to play rogue decks at fnm and just have fun. I'll be building a deck with this in it for sure.
being vulnerable to removal is just one weakness of many. The resilience of a combo is more than one factor. Look at my list earlier on in the thread;
As others have pointed out, its an infinite combo indeed, but it:
A) is not in the same colors
B) not in well suited colors in current meta
C) is very slow
D) is very expensive
E) has extremely fragile pieces, ie easily disrupted by every single control card in the meta (from bolt to pierce to leak to doom blade to disfigure)
F) lets your opponent untap and respond (doj -> ignore it)
G) has individual pieces that are either lackluster (turntimber needs allies or hes very underpowered) or downright useless (species does absolutely nothing) on their own.
H) does nothing to halt most opponents wins (bsa just flies over and finishes you if you were at 5, valakut throws triggers from his suiciding primeval, rdw aims bolt at your forehead, etc)
I) sets you up for astounding losses against certain increasingly popular cards
How many decks are there that are played that couldn't deal with this with pretty much any hand they get that isn't 7x lands? Just about every popular card shoots in down in one way or another.
So yeah, its casual fun. And lots of things can be casual fun, and thats not a bad thing whatsoever. But people are naturally going to point out that its a weak combo and the reasons why- and removal is definitely one of those reasons.
The point being, removal does invalidate it. In combination with those other factors. But removal does not "invalidate everything". Almost every popular creature in standard dodges removal in some shape or form. They either provide card advantage that bypasses a DoJ, or they are hasty, or they are hard to kill or replace themselves or so on.
"When X enters the battlefield" triggers do count effects that modify objects on the battlefield, because they don't trigger until the object is actually on the battlefield, and therefore already being affected by the modifying ability. When the Wolf token is created, the new object placed on the battlefield is already made into a Wolf Ally when the trigger event is put onto the stack.
That was probably worded a lot more confusingly than it actually is.
Wrong. Card text changing effects are static effects. Static ablilitys are always on, so the combo works... regardless. Similar to Primalcrux with spellbreaker behomoth.
Also to people doubting the combo... it looks like polymorphs level of difficulty to pull of certainly relevent.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
Wrong. Card text changing effects are static effects. Static ablilitys are always on, so the combo works... regardless. Similar to Primalcrux with spellbreaker behomoth.
Also to people doubting the combo... it looks like polymorphs level of difficulty to pull of certainly relevent.
I think that's what I meant but just couldn't figure out how to say it properly.
Concerning the combos weakness to removal and speed. As there are not a whole lot of allies to choose from odds are your running a multicolor set up. Blue (species transplant) is a must for this combo as well as green (turntimber ranger). That I agree is weak although odds are a removal spell will be used on a harabaz druid because that gets out of hand in a hurry. The only viable deck will include white because you have ondu cleric, hada freeblade, kabira evangelical, and join the ranks. All of which are splashable at 1w providing early life gain, and protection from chosen color on your turn and your opponents. Allies are obnoxious you don't need hardly anything but allies in an ally deck. They tend to be weak against red and DoJ so I run eldrazi monument.
I don't think the cost of this combo is much of an issue. There is plenty of ramp in Standard right now. I mean, look at what Valakut can do as early as turn 4.
I'm not saying a deck with this combo will be the next Valakut, but the support for the higher cost spells required is available. Just as a shell for the ramp and tutor aspect of the deck (the green part), something like this could work,
It doesn't need to be an Ally deck to work. The combo itself can be slotted in as the win condition of what amounts to an amalgamation of existing competitive Standard decks.
Now, again, I'm not saying using pieces of competitive decks will make it competitive, but I think it could be pretty solid. Looking back over what I've suggested here, it might be trying to do a bit too much at once, with both ramp and control, but, with some tweaking of the numbers and some card substitutions, it could work.
Thoughts?
EDIT: I've intentionally left out a discussion of the rest of the mana-base besides the fetch lands for synergy with Lotus Cobra.
EDIT 2: Looking through some more of the spoiled cards, Spellsplitter could have a place in this deck too, since it could serve as a bodyguard for Turntimber Ranger and also soak up some damage early on.
Why do people always think that bringing up the fact that there is removal invalidates things? There is always removal! This won't reach tier 1 level for sure but with the right cards and good building it can be fun and it can win.
You are playing blue. Play mana leak. Hmm, that stops disfigure right? Not to mention the already spoiled spellspitter. He eats most removal too right?
Point is, there are ways to protect your combo in standard.
Again, I am not saying its going to be a meta changing deck for a few months while its legal but it will get played and maybe, just maybe someone will break it wide open.
I personally like to play rogue decks at fnm and just have fun. I'll be building a deck with this in it for sure.
Oh, it's a neat combo that I could see possibly winning a FNM or something. I only object to the assumption that it's "broken." The combo doesn't even go off until after a truly broken deck would have already won the game. Then, it waits a turn to attack.
Now, as for Squadron Hawk, I figured it might see play. I just didn't imagine it being Jace's buddy. I expected it to fill Ranger of Eos/Bloodbraid Elf's shoes as a friend of Vengevine.
Stoneforge wasn't a surprise at all. People were snapping them up at the prerelease, just like Knight of the Reliquary. We just didn't have the tools to really make either tick until the next block rotated in. Honestly, I'd be looking for the rare in Besieged that's an Irrinistad plant, considering they're both from the middle set.
this is very interesting actually, considering that the 2 combo pieces are actually cheaper than everyone's favorite competitive beasticks, the titans.
anyone saying this is weak should realize that the titans are more expensive, therefore this combo is actually viable. and if you wanted to splash red you could definitely give those infinite wolves haste.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH decks: BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB GThrun, the Last TrollG RGWRith, the AwakenerWGR UMemnarchU GBGlissa, the TraitorBG
Standard Decks: RKuldotha RebirthR WUControlUW BMidrangeB
Problem is, it's high costed, and very very prone to removal... you NEED that ranger to win... and it's not in the colors with a lot of tutors...
Also, remember that, when Innistrad cycles in, this deck would be completely out... so while it has the slight possibility to affect the meta for a little bit, eventually it will fade.
No Tutors you say? what about that whole creature tutor into play they just printed. Green Sun's Zenith.
and Blue doesnt need to tutor this up because they should be netting card advantage and digging naturally.
It's a decentish combo sure but it's like the quillspike combo and polymorph combo. It will be a fringe deck that some people will work on 'breaking' even though it's not really a broken combo; win for 10 mana total is the definition of fair. And even then you have to pass the turn so they might be able to solve the problem.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
wow...I think I might just have to try this deck....Make it UG with the blue full of scrying while green to ramp the mana. wow...This just might be a fun deck to make...
wow...I think I might just have to try this deck....Make it UG with the blue full of scrying while green to ramp the mana. wow...This just might be a fun deck to make...
Green ramping. Blue digging/countering. I like it.
When Conspiracy was in Standard, the best thing you could do with it was name "Mercenary" and make a crappy tribe slightly less crappy. There are a lot more uses for the card in this environment (Allies, and possibly Golem tribal depending on the quality of some of these Splicers) and the color makes a lot more sense too.
Some folks would give it an honest consideration and see its merits, many would shoot it down as soon as they saw a weakness in a single card in the build, but then inevitably, once it started showing promise, the majority would forget its simple origins here and then get right to copying the heck out of it.
Could we address this?
The way I see it, since Species Transplantation makes it so that creatures you control are the chosen type, wouldn't a creature entering the battlefield then enter the battlefield as the chosen type, thus in this combo triggering the Turntimber Ranger's ability if Ally was the type chosen? I don't think it works such that the creature is its original type for any amount of time in the game state, since as it enters the battlefield it is a creature you control, thus it is a creature of that type. I could be wrong though.
Thoughts?
That was probably worded a lot more confusingly than it actually is.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I mean this wording is based off the Japanese text.
I think it might have a wording more like Conspiracy.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
while rare, they do happen.
Strangling soot's spanish version says "Destroy target ATTACKING creature with..." whereas the english version says "Destroy target creature with..."
http://alteredartmagic.blogspot.com/search/label/Nicolarre
or in my Humble Alter Gallery at DeviantArt: http://nicolarre.deviantart.com/gallery/
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
You are playing blue. Play mana leak. Hmm, that stops disfigure right? Not to mention the already spoiled spellspitter. He eats most removal too right?
Point is, there are ways to protect your combo in standard.
Again, I am not saying its going to be a meta changing deck for a few months while its legal but it will get played and maybe, just maybe someone will break it wide open.
I personally like to play rogue decks at fnm and just have fun. I'll be building a deck with this in it for sure.
being vulnerable to removal is just one weakness of many. The resilience of a combo is more than one factor. Look at my list earlier on in the thread;
How many decks are there that are played that couldn't deal with this with pretty much any hand they get that isn't 7x lands? Just about every popular card shoots in down in one way or another.
So yeah, its casual fun. And lots of things can be casual fun, and thats not a bad thing whatsoever. But people are naturally going to point out that its a weak combo and the reasons why- and removal is definitely one of those reasons.
The point being, removal does invalidate it. In combination with those other factors. But removal does not "invalidate everything". Almost every popular creature in standard dodges removal in some shape or form. They either provide card advantage that bypasses a DoJ, or they are hasty, or they are hard to kill or replace themselves or so on.
Wrong. Card text changing effects are static effects. Static ablilitys are always on, so the combo works... regardless. Similar to Primalcrux with spellbreaker behomoth.
Also to people doubting the combo... it looks like polymorphs level of difficulty to pull of certainly relevent.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Polymorph wasn't hard to pull off at all though.
I think that's what I meant but just couldn't figure out how to say it properly.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I'm not saying a deck with this combo will be the next Valakut, but the support for the higher cost spells required is available. Just as a shell for the ramp and tutor aspect of the deck (the green part), something like this could work,
3x Lotus Cobra
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Fauna Shaman
3x Explore
3x Harrow
3x Green Sun's Zenith
Land
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
Birds of Paradise being there instead of Overgrown Battlement for the mana-fixing aspect.
Then, you could take the control and card advantage aspect of blue to protect your combo and get the pieces,
4x Preordain
3x Mana Leak
2x Spell Pierce
4x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
And then, finally, the combo pieces themselves,
3x Turntimber Ranger
3x Species Transplantation
It doesn't need to be an Ally deck to work. The combo itself can be slotted in as the win condition of what amounts to an amalgamation of existing competitive Standard decks.
Now, again, I'm not saying using pieces of competitive decks will make it competitive, but I think it could be pretty solid. Looking back over what I've suggested here, it might be trying to do a bit too much at once, with both ramp and control, but, with some tweaking of the numbers and some card substitutions, it could work.
Thoughts?
EDIT: I've intentionally left out a discussion of the rest of the mana-base besides the fetch lands for synergy with Lotus Cobra.
EDIT 2: Looking through some more of the spoiled cards, Spellsplitter could have a place in this deck too, since it could serve as a bodyguard for Turntimber Ranger and also soak up some damage early on.
Oh, it's a neat combo that I could see possibly winning a FNM or something. I only object to the assumption that it's "broken." The combo doesn't even go off until after a truly broken deck would have already won the game. Then, it waits a turn to attack.
Now, as for Squadron Hawk, I figured it might see play. I just didn't imagine it being Jace's buddy. I expected it to fill Ranger of Eos/Bloodbraid Elf's shoes as a friend of Vengevine.
Stoneforge wasn't a surprise at all. People were snapping them up at the prerelease, just like Knight of the Reliquary. We just didn't have the tools to really make either tick until the next block rotated in. Honestly, I'd be looking for the rare in Besieged that's an Irrinistad plant, considering they're both from the middle set.
anyone saying this is weak should realize that the titans are more expensive, therefore this combo is actually viable. and if you wanted to splash red you could definitely give those infinite wolves haste.
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB
GThrun, the Last TrollG
RGWRith, the AwakenerWGR
UMemnarchU
GBGlissa, the TraitorBG
Standard Decks:
RKuldotha RebirthR
WUControlUW
BMidrangeB
Extended:
WUBEsper GlazeBUW
No Tutors you say? what about that whole creature tutor into play they just printed. Green Sun's Zenith.
and Blue doesnt need to tutor this up because they should be netting card advantage and digging naturally.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Green ramping. Blue digging/countering. I like it.
Ballin' signature from Heroes of the Planes
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)