If anything, assuming Maro's speaking the truth, I personally don't care as much for the card being a 2B as opposed to a 1B (I don't remember how playable Spineless Thug was, but I assume that it'd be decent in the black aggro based limited strategies. However, I don't see how a zombie costing 1B is any more flavorful than it costing 2B, there's nothing in the Zendikar story saying that zombies have to be cheap and while most of the vampire tribe seems based on cheap creatures, it's not a hard rule saying that they must be, as Wizards pushing Vampires as a tribe happened starting w/m10) as I do about the culture, as being described as being really odd.
While I don't think that development should bow down to MaRo or anything, it sounds like the rest of development liked the new version so much that they wanted it in. While accidents can result in good things, I think the wanting to have a pet bad card in (Chimney Imp, Bog Hoodlums, Zephyr Spirit) probably swayed them to have it in at 2B. I'm sure that the "bad card" would have become something else if the bad Zombie wasn't there (and I'm not really a fan of when they do this.)
Even if it was an example of them going over the boss's head, for the most part, it's not an offense for someone to be fired over. I have no idea how the decision process goes, from what was told/read about Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker's development, it seems pretty democratic in that people pitch ideas and majority rules when it comes to making decisions and MaRo may have just been voted out, but again, I have no idea.
why would you attack him personally for stating his opinion on a card? i think it's fair to disagree with him, but you're not even doing that.
What he hopes to achieve - i would imagine that OP doesn't *actually* want employees to be fired. firing them would be unreasonable, a point that has already been made. we want there to be sufficient oversight in the design process of MTG. i don't think that is an unreasonable expectation for a large company that has been in business for over a decade.
is he overreacting? maybe, but it's part of drawing attention to the issue. maybe his presentation could be better, but to be quite honest the thread is full of garbage like "go disappear," "get over it", "you have nothing better to do in your life?", "it's just one card!," all of which adds nothing to the discussion.
it's unfortunate, because the topic is actually quite interesting imo. is there a minimum power level we should expect for commons? is it even worth the resources used to print the card, which will likely just be tossed out or sit in a box in a closet for years? would the set be better or worse without the card? how can wizards make bad cards without making them unplayable in any serious format?
there is the possibility for a good discussion here, but it seems most people are content to ***** at the OP and call names. it's like a micro representation of the internet at large, actually.
Don't you think the OP's histrionic reaction to the card framed the debate in such a way that the question of what an acceptable level of power at common for 2B should be became impossible? The OP is acting irrationally and is not discussing the issue and I doubt he really knew or knows how to frame the issue in the way you are describing.
(On a purely theoretical level I think the point you raise is interesting and I don't think I ever thought that Scathe Zombies was the "floor" for a 2B 2/2.)
If you don't like it [your car], stop driving.
If you don't like it [the tax system], stop paying your taxes.
If you don't like it [the taste of your medicine], stop taking your meds.
You see how your logic is that of a [profanity removed because I don't think it's strong enough]? No offense, but it seems that you're just not willing to look at things critically, and would rather throw stones at the person who is telling you that your glass house will break if you throw stones from inside it...
Your attempt to counter point just fell right on its face.
That said, Maro also made that card an instant instead of a sorcery AND it did something that no other card did. It ALSO, ironically, saw play against Owling Mine. So... there?
No it didn't.
I mean if you want to go on about how if I don't like the pillows on airplanes, I shouldn't fly, or how if I hate rushhour traffic, I should quit my job... go ahead. Just be a pal and practice what you preach.
more fail I see.
Just seems you like to take something small and blow it up.
I'll agree that this is a minor issue over a common card that would only have been relevant in Limited, where Vampires are a strong strategy nonetheless.
However, if Xyl's story checks out, this is worrying for several reasons:
1. People in the Development team are doing a sloppy job even despite being told otherwise. This is not serious when it shows up in common black limited fodder, but it's potentially disastrous when applied to cards with broken power levels or larger strokes (i.e. the sorry state blue's in is more of a development failure than design's).
2. Tensions between the Design and Development team have gotten bad enough that MaRo feels compelled to wash his hands. You don't bad-mouth your coworkers at a product release party unless you're REALLY distressed about something. This tells me MaRo ain't happy with his working conditions, and unhappy people make a subpar job.
3. R&D's upper management isn't working as well as it should. I've been suspecting this aver since Forsythe got his job as head of R&D, since that's when all the crazy **** started. Forsythe was the one major driving force behind M10 (and I suspect, an important contributor to most of the big changes to Magic in the last year). Why is this important? Because whenever there's a conflict between you and a coworker, the one person to go to is your boss. If Forsythe is imposing his will over that of designers, or overlooking the quality of Magic development in favor of pushing gimmicks, this has serious potential repercussions to Magic, and we've been feeling those for quite a while now.
It's that feeling of not being satisfied with a product that you bought with your hard earned cash. This is to relieve that stress a bit.
Are you really saying "I buy packs to get cards that are marginally BETTER than Scathe Zombies and if they're not then my hard-earned cash is thereby wasted"? I think you really mean to be coming off less, uh, silly.
Don't you think the OP's histrionic reaction to the card framed the debate in such a way that the question of what an acceptable level of power at common for 2B should be became impossible? The OP is acting irrationally and is not discussing the issue and I doubt he really knew or knows how to frame the issue in the way you are describing.
(On a purely theoretical level I think the point you raise is interesting and I don't think I ever thought that Scathe Zombies was the "floor" for a 2B 2/2.)
-E
yeah, you're right that OP didn't exactly set himself up for a civil discussion.
scathe zombies usually struck me as 'average.' he could def be worse be being some creature type nobody cares about, like uh, specter or something.
Are you really saying "I buy packs to get cards that are marginally BETTER than Scathe Zombies and if they're not then my hard-earned cash is thereby wasted"? I think you really mean to be coming off less, uh, silly.
-E
No, I mean to get cards that show that they have been looked at with 20 years of experience in their designs, not something that looked like it was made in a rush and wasn't thought of. 20 years of experience should be bringing in constant high quality stuff.
If you opened a Scathe Zombies, would you play it? No.
If you open a Mindless Null, will you play it? No.
In practical use, Mindless Null isn't any worse than another unplayable card. They all have effectively zero value since they're not in your deck.
If you're really really starving for an gray ogre due to having the ****tiest pool in the world, you might play it. But then it really is inconsequential since you probably won't win.
It's entirely possible to win with a sealed pool that has to play scathe zombies/gray ogre type cards. Mindless null blocking conditionally and costing the same makes it so much worse that if you're playing it, yeah you're probably going to lose.
You will always have unplayables. being playable depends on the other cards in the same set. I can think of at least one magic set where this card will be playable, compared to the others. Yes, playability is relative.
Quit making this argument.
Everyone knows there will be unplayable cards in every set, that is not the point. There are unplayable cards because they aren't good enough, like shivan dragon, and there are cards that are strictly obsolete, like mindless null. The first type of unplayable card is fine and acceptable. It's the second type that is inexcusable.
Its just bitestobe, he likes to QQ and then troll it up.
You do realize that by doing nothing more in your post except flaming the OP you basically become as much of a troll yourself? Reporting your post to the mods.
I think the OP's argument is a valid one: if this was a development mistake out of negligence, and especially if MaRo openly complained about it, there is reason enough to be concerned. If Development is heavily pushing creature power levels and being negligent about testing exhaustively, then it's only a matter of time before something slips through. Be thankful they slipped on a bad common instead of a powerhouse rare (assuming Lotus Cobra doesn't break older formats, that is).
Mindless Null is the crack in the dam, the crack in the fortress, Mindless Null is a window into the inner workings of R and D, a small sampling but a sampling nonetheless unfiltered by written and public courtesy. Mindless Null itself is irrelevant but the fact it exists is the phenomenon that lingers in our very soul.
There are always going to be mistakes, there will always be crap cards, and good cards. This card isn't a problem at all, and didn't have any effect on game play. It's not a big deal honestly. If the mistake had been printing the fetchlands without the "pay one life" clause, or if Lotus Cobra had been printed with out a colorless mana symbol in it's cost, then we would all have something to complain about.
As it is, it's only one common, and not a very good one at that anyways.
I also took Mark Rosewater to the side during the Seattle event to let him know how much I enjoyed playing with these new cards. I let him know that "playing the lottery" with random old cards stuck in boosters was a really fun idea. (All in all, i think we only had one guy in Seattle open an old card, and it was a revised Tropical Island. I was also thrilled to have the event at the convention center.
You know, he seems more fun to talk to I bet if you're not complaining about small commons.
In the MWS world, for many players, winning also makes you a noob.
The same applies to:
-Knowing the rules.
-Netdecking.
-Not netdecking.
-Using old versions of a card (yeah, it has hapenned to me: "Ugh... ugly pic noob")
-Knowing English.
-Using phases.
-Countering spells.
<@MarkRosewater> THis is a secret we've carefully guarded but for this chat I'm going to spill the beans.
<@MarkRosewater> Some cards in Magic are better than others.
<@MarkRosewater> Ssh, don't tell anyone.
No, I mean to get cards that show that they have been looked at with 20 years of experience in their designs, not something that looked like it was made in a rush and wasn't thought of. 20 years of experience should be bringing in constant high quality stuff.
Could it be possible that there's a reason they'd want a zombie that interacts with vampires in the set for Worldwake?
OP, instead of whining about it on forums, you should do something more productive... Like start an internet petition! Or start a march to the wotc building to protest this outrage! Really though, bad cards being printed isn't anything new, and neither is people not listening to each other. Perhaps you should stop complaining ABOUT A COMMON and enjoy the game we have?
While I don't think that development should bow down to MaRo or anything, it sounds like the rest of development liked the new version so much that they wanted it in. While accidents can result in good things, I think the wanting to have a pet bad card in (Chimney Imp, Bog Hoodlums, Zephyr Spirit) probably swayed them to have it in at 2B. I'm sure that the "bad card" would have become something else if the bad Zombie wasn't there (and I'm not really a fan of when they do this.)
Even if it was an example of them going over the boss's head, for the most part, it's not an offense for someone to be fired over. I have no idea how the decision process goes, from what was told/read about Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker's development, it seems pretty democratic in that people pitch ideas and majority rules when it comes to making decisions and MaRo may have just been voted out, but again, I have no idea.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Don't you think the OP's histrionic reaction to the card framed the debate in such a way that the question of what an acceptable level of power at common for 2B should be became impossible? The OP is acting irrationally and is not discussing the issue and I doubt he really knew or knows how to frame the issue in the way you are describing.
(On a purely theoretical level I think the point you raise is interesting and I don't think I ever thought that Scathe Zombies was the "floor" for a 2B 2/2.)
-E
Your attempt to counter point just fell right on its face.
No it didn't.
more fail I see.
Just seems you like to take something small and blow it up.
However, if Xyl's story checks out, this is worrying for several reasons:
1. People in the Development team are doing a sloppy job even despite being told otherwise. This is not serious when it shows up in common black limited fodder, but it's potentially disastrous when applied to cards with broken power levels or larger strokes (i.e. the sorry state blue's in is more of a development failure than design's).
2. Tensions between the Design and Development team have gotten bad enough that MaRo feels compelled to wash his hands. You don't bad-mouth your coworkers at a product release party unless you're REALLY distressed about something. This tells me MaRo ain't happy with his working conditions, and unhappy people make a subpar job.
3. R&D's upper management isn't working as well as it should. I've been suspecting this aver since Forsythe got his job as head of R&D, since that's when all the crazy **** started. Forsythe was the one major driving force behind M10 (and I suspect, an important contributor to most of the big changes to Magic in the last year). Why is this important? Because whenever there's a conflict between you and a coworker, the one person to go to is your boss. If Forsythe is imposing his will over that of designers, or overlooking the quality of Magic development in favor of pushing gimmicks, this has serious potential repercussions to Magic, and we've been feeling those for quite a while now.
Its just bitestobe, he likes to QQ and then troll it up.
It's that feeling of not being satisfied with a product that you bought with your hard earned cash. This is to relieve that stress a bit.
Are you really saying "I buy packs to get cards that are marginally BETTER than Scathe Zombies and if they're not then my hard-earned cash is thereby wasted"? I think you really mean to be coming off less, uh, silly.
-E
yeah, you're right that OP didn't exactly set himself up for a civil discussion.
scathe zombies usually struck me as 'average.' he could def be worse be being some creature type nobody cares about, like uh, specter or something.
No, I mean to get cards that show that they have been looked at with 20 years of experience in their designs, not something that looked like it was made in a rush and wasn't thought of. 20 years of experience should be bringing in constant high quality stuff.
It's entirely possible to win with a sealed pool that has to play scathe zombies/gray ogre type cards. Mindless null blocking conditionally and costing the same makes it so much worse that if you're playing it, yeah you're probably going to lose.
Quit making this argument.
Everyone knows there will be unplayable cards in every set, that is not the point. There are unplayable cards because they aren't good enough, like shivan dragon, and there are cards that are strictly obsolete, like mindless null. The first type of unplayable card is fine and acceptable. It's the second type that is inexcusable.
You do realize that by doing nothing more in your post except flaming the OP you basically become as much of a troll yourself? Reporting your post to the mods.
I think the OP's argument is a valid one: if this was a development mistake out of negligence, and especially if MaRo openly complained about it, there is reason enough to be concerned. If Development is heavily pushing creature power levels and being negligent about testing exhaustively, then it's only a matter of time before something slips through. Be thankful they slipped on a bad common instead of a powerhouse rare (assuming Lotus Cobra doesn't break older formats, that is).
http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=317475478823307368#overview/src=dashboard
Like reading magic theory?
http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=2901104710618966704#overview/src=dashboard
Are you a navy Nuke?
http://blueconceptnavynuke.blogspot.com/2012/08/captains-mast-at-nnptc.html
As it is, it's only one common, and not a very good one at that anyways.
I also took Mark Rosewater to the side during the Seattle event to let him know how much I enjoyed playing with these new cards. I let him know that "playing the lottery" with random old cards stuck in boosters was a really fun idea. (All in all, i think we only had one guy in Seattle open an old card, and it was a revised Tropical Island. I was also thrilled to have the event at the convention center.
You know, he seems more fun to talk to I bet if you're not complaining about small commons.
Could it be possible that there's a reason they'd want a zombie that interacts with vampires in the set for Worldwake?
-E
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.