First off, you have no combo to protect with Silence, so you probably do not need it. Another 2 Path to Exiles would do you well. I also think Martial Coup is probably quite unnecessary here since you already have 14 other odd win conditions and Emeria to give you tons of inevitability.
I do not think Luminarch Ascension is a maindeck card until a metagame begins to shape. If there is a lot of aggro, you need to play with other cards to protect it, whereas if there is a lot of control, it's extremelt powerful. So it's better off in your sideboard, I would say, as an extremely difficult threat for a control deck to deal with. Freeing up those slots, and probably a fair chunk of the 8 Fogs you have, will first let you up your land count by including a full set of Fetchlands to thin your deck out, and give you room for 4 Elspeth, Knight-Errants, who is definitely worthy of seeing play in this deck on sheer power, but also makes for an amazing 3rd drop after you land a Knight of the White Orchid.
Oblivion Ring is probably going to be a more powerful card overall than either Angelsong or Safe Passage. It gives you a plan for opposing Planeswalkers and works as an answer to all kinds of problematic permanents.
Wall of Reverence would be pretty well suited for this deck. Even without Plumeveils, it's a massive blocker and a steady stream of life. If you control an Elspeth, her second ability turns into +3 Life (and a potential 'dragon-size' Knight of the White Orchid). It makes a Baneslayer Angel have more inherent value the turn it lands- if your opponent tapped out the turn before for his Bloodbraid Elf, you'll get that 5 Life no matter what.
Sideboard wise: Ethersworn Cannonist is a must to combat cascade decks, which will be popular- it's a much better answer than Silence. Celestial Purge is a 4 of, no matter what. Pithing Needle has its uses. Harm's Way is exceptional against lots of aggro decks. Sceptre of Dominance is strong card, it could almost make it to the main depending on the build- it's excellent at forcing aggro players to overextend into a Day of Judgment, not to mention that it deals with Bloodghast and Sprouting Thrinax in a permanent way.
I like the tempo kill that Silence affords me. If I can keep my opponent on that one Elite Vanguard for a turn and just take the beat, I'll be one land closer to DoJ, Baneslayer, or Martial Coup. Speaking of Martial Coup, it gives more utility as a sweeper than as a win con (although it is that too).
The eight fog effects are there with or without Luminarch Ascension, because against aggro they essentially steal turns. I have Emerias for control. I think Luminarch Ascension will actually be very easy to activate in this build, with the fog plus the turn after Day of Judgment and the stalling that Baneslayer provides. I considered Elspeths maindecked, but I'm not convinced about the idea. I think I would prefer to go with stall into the late game then play big Angels/Coup for 5+. Plus, if I were to run World Queller, Elspeth would eliminate a great deal of its usefulness.
I don't like O-Ring greatly in this deck. It seems to provide too much of a slowdown. I would rather have them play creatures, fog, then sweep them all on turn 4. I would say SB at most.
How can you say Cascade will be popular? For one, that'll depend on the location: I haven't seen any Cascade-based decks around here. Also, it could be that something else will be the deck to beat (like, say, Time Sieve). I use Silence for reasons other than Cascade, like the opponent's turn after a DoJ, when it's effectively a Time Warp.
I also considered Scepter of Dominance, eventually discarding the idea because I felt it was less relevant than anything I had maindecked, and my sideboard is (for now) fitted for what I think my metagame will be.
How can you say Cascade will be popular? For one, that'll depend on the location: I haven't seen any Cascade-based decks around here. Also, it could be that something else will be the deck to beat (like, say, Time Sieve). I use Silence for reasons other than Cascade, like the opponent's turn after a DoJ, when it's effectively a Time Warp.
This is an excellent way to use Silence, but it means you need 5 mana for DoJ. I assume you silence after your second DoJ?
As for Cascade, it seems simple to me. Once Lorwyn goes out, people are going to be casting about for a tried and tested deck archetype while the ZEN metagame sorts itself out. We'll be left with Warp World, Time Sieve, this deck, the all-too-obvious Vampires.dec, and... Cascade. Which IS a valid deck archetype, are you kidding me? Just because Baneslayer Angel is our new honey pie, don't forget that Bloodbraid Elf is a totally sick card. Cascade is a proven strong mechanic; it was able to go toe to toe with the ridiculously broken Faeries and come out on top its share of the time. It loses very little to the transition. It will definitely have at least a short resurgence as a known quantity.
I also considered Scepter of Dominance, eventually discarding the idea because I felt it was less relevant than anything I had maindecked, and my sideboard is (for now) fitted for what I think my metagame will be.
I agree with whoever it was above that said that Scepter is good against Aggro for making them overextend into DoJ. I remember using Icy + Wrath the same way back in the day. (Or better yet, Propaganda + Wrath... It's also good against Baneslayer control decks because their win condition is "make the big girl, defend her" and then they're stuck with this unwanted minigame called "make the scepter go away or I can't win".
This is an excellent way to use Silence, but it means you need 5 mana for DoJ. I assume you silence after your second DoJ?
As for Cascade, it seems simple to me. Once Lorwyn goes out, people are going to be casting about for a tried and tested deck archetype while the ZEN metagame sorts itself out. We'll be left with Warp World, Time Sieve, this deck, the all-too-obvious Vampires.dec, and... Cascade. Which IS a valid deck archetype, are you kidding me? Just because Baneslayer Angel is our new honey pie, don't forget that Bloodbraid Elf is a totally sick card. Cascade is a proven strong mechanic; it was able to go toe to toe with the ridiculously broken Faeries and come out on top its share of the time. It loses very little to the transition. It will definitely have at least a short resurgence as a known quantity.
I agree with whoever it was above that said that Scepter is good against Aggro for making them overextend into DoJ. I remember using Icy + Wrath the same way back in the day. (Or better yet, Propaganda + Wrath... It's also good against Baneslayer control decks because their win condition is "make the big girl, defend her" and then they're stuck with this unwanted minigame called "make the scepter go away or I can't win".
For the DoJ + Silence, I've been letting the other person play first, hitting a turn 3 Knight of the White Orchid, then dropping a land to bring it to 4 lands turn 3. This usually lets me hit 5 on turn 4.
Hey, I'm not saying Cascade won't be big or playable. I'm just saying it might be a little early to determine the SB based on shaky metagame predictions. Time Sieve won our M10 Game Day, so I'll probably board some Relics of Progenitus. Other than that, I think I (and the rest of us) will have to wait for all of Zendikar to be spoiled.
Again, I'll reconsider the Scepter. I'm not sure of its place, but I won't dismiss it offhand. I think fog's doing a fine job of drawing opponents out, but clearly more playtesting is required (and we still have almost 3 weeks before release, so. . . ).
Hey, I'm not saying Cascade won't be big or playable. I'm just saying it might be a little early to determine the SB based on shaky metagame predictions. Time Sieve won our M10 Game Day, so I'll probably board some Relics of Progenitus. Other than that, I think I (and the rest of us) will have to wait for all of Zendikar to be spoiled.
The reason Cascade is bound to be a force in the metagame is because of the ridiculous power of the archetype, as it was probably the best deck available in Alara Block Constructed. And while Zendikar adds 200 new cards, it's not unheard of for the best deck pre-rotation to keep its power level post-rotation as long as its key components were there (in a similiar vein, the transition from Time Spiral to Lorwyn that led to Fae dominance was, in part, backed by the fact that Blue/black control was already an excellent deck that just happened to get a super-synergistic creature base). Bituminous Blast and Bloodbraid Elf are 2 of the most powerful cards in Alara Block, and will continue to see play for the foreseeable future in both full on Cascade decks, or in Jund Midrange/Cascade decks.
Your reason for running Silence is pretty flawed, honestly. Casting it early is weak, as you woul rather have your opponent apply a considerable amount of pressure in the early turns for you to get card advantage from your Day of Judgment. And while it seems potent to cast it after wiping the board, that means you'll be casting Day on turn 5 and leaving a mana open, whereas you should be casting it turn 4, letting your opponent try to re-establish board presence, and then denying them that pleasure by dropping a Baneslayer Angel. Unless you are using Silence to protect a game breaking combo, it's, honestly, a particularly weak card.
I like the tempo kill that Silence affords me. If I can keep my opponent on that one Elite Vanguard for a turn and just take the beat, I'll be one land closer to DoJ, Baneslayer, or Martial Coup. Speaking of Martial Coup, it gives more utility as a sweeper than as a win con (although it is that too).
Your argument for using Martial Coup here is a bit redundant since it is only a sweeper when you are casting it as a Win condition. You don't need 6 sweepers in a deck that is planning on taking control of the board by resolving an efficient sweeper (Day) and following it up with a creature with almost unmatched board presence (Baneslayer) or another board-controlling win condition (Elspeth). I like the card a lot, but I do not think it is very useful here. If you run Sceptre of Dominance (and you should, because it is awesme), by the time you can cast Martial Coup profitably you probably have mana to cast Iona, who will likely win you the game if she resolves.
The eight fog effects are there with or without Luminarch Ascension, because against aggro they essentially steal turns.
You don't need to run Fog effects unless you are not going to interfere with your opponent's board presence for a large part of the game. They will be dead cards against lots of midrange and control decks (and having to cycle Angelsong is just a nuissance) and, even against aggro, force you to play reactively. You want to play mono-White control as a Tap-Out control deck. Life gain suits the purpose considerably better, which is why I would run Wall of Reverence. It gains you life, and stops a whole ton of playable creatures from attacking profitably into the red zone. It plays amazingly well with Baneslayer Angel and Elpseth, and feels especially daunting to an aggro player if you land it turn 3 using Knight of the White Orchid.
Also, as to going second more often than not: Good plan, but I think you can get away with going first if you bite the bullet and proactively use a Path to Exile in the early game to deal with a threat (Putrid Leech, for example), since most players will use the land searching, which will turn on Knight of the White Orchid for you.
Also, raise your land count if you want to play 4 copies of Emeria, or run a copy of two less and run more Plains. Having 4 means you'll draw it more often, but by the time it will be active you'll likely have drawn 1 anyway, and having too many makes all the other ones weaker (since you'll have less Plains in play by turns 8 or 9).
The reason Cascade is bound to be a force in the metagame is because of the ridiculous power of the archetype, as it was probably the best deck available in Alara Block Constructed. And while Zendikar adds 200 new cards, it's not unheard of for the best deck pre-rotation to keep its power level post-rotation as long as its key components were there (in a similiar vein, the transition from Time Spiral to Lorwyn that led to Fae dominance was, in part, backed by the fact that Blue/black control was already an excellent deck that just happened to get a super-synergistic creature base). Bituminous Blast and Bloodbraid Elf are 2 of the most powerful cards in Alara Block, and will continue to see play for the foreseeable future in both full on Cascade decks, or in Jund Midrange/Cascade decks.
Well, we'll see. I'm not denying your logic, just keeping my SB options open. However, I would like to note that some of the fog you're blasting, Safe Passage, is great vs. a turn 5 Bituminous into Bloodbraid (If I even have a creature out). Why is Bituminous good? Because it kills stuff. Not with Safe Passage. Why is Bloodbraid good, especially off the back of a Bituminous? Because it smacks for 3. Not with Safe Passage. Safe Passage vs. aggro and midrange almost always results in a stolen turn (and completely ruins Warp World), and it can also shut down some control late-game.
Your reason for running Silence is pretty flawed, honestly. Casting it early is weak, as you woul rather have your opponent apply a considerable amount of pressure in the early turns for you to get card advantage from your Day of Judgment. And while it seems potent to cast it after wiping the board, that means you'll be casting Day on turn 5 and leaving a mana open, whereas you should be casting it turn 4, letting your opponent try to re-establish board presence, and then denying them that pleasure by dropping a Baneslayer Angel. Unless you are using Silence to protect a game breaking combo, it's, honestly, a particularly weak card.
As I explained in a previous post, the idea is to get 5 or 6 mana by turn 4 with Knight of the White Orchid/Path to Exile. If I do get a Knight, then the turn 4 DoJ/Silence is entirely feasible.
And besides, if I play Silence before turn 4/DoJ, they might assume I'm trying to hold them back because I don't have it and therefore try to play out their hand as fast as possible.
Your argument for using Martial Coup here is a bit redundant since it is only a sweeper when you are casting it as a Win condition. You don't need 6 sweepers in a deck that is planning on taking control of the board by resolving an efficient sweeper (Day) and following it up with a creature with almost unmatched board presence (Baneslayer) or another board-controlling win condition (Elspeth). I like the card a lot, but I do not think it is very useful here. If you run Sceptre of Dominance (and you should, because it is awesme), by the time you can cast Martial Coup profitably you probably have mana to cast Iona, who will likely win you the game if she resolves.
Profitable Coup: 7 mana
Iona: 9 mana
There is a distinction. Coup is especially devastating two or three turns after a DoJ if they rebuild their board with the creatures they weren't overextending with. Iona won't stop a full board by herself, especially against two or more colors.
Yes, I am still considering Scepter of Dominance and Wall of Reverence. I will continue to do so.
You don't need to run Fog effects unless you are not going to interfere with your opponent's board presence for a large part of the game. They will be dead cards against lots of midrange and control decks (and having to cycle Angelsong is just a nuissance) and, even against aggro, force you to play reactively. You want to play mono-White control as a Tap-Out control deck. Life gain suits the purpose considerably better, which is why I would run Wall of Reverence. It gains you life, and stops a whole ton of playable creatures from attacking profitably into the red zone. It plays amazingly well with Baneslayer Angel and Elpseth, and feels especially daunting to an aggro player if you land it turn 3 using Knight of the White Orchid.
If I do that, don't I kinda defeat the purpose of turn 4 DoJ because I'd be destroying my own side of the 'field?
Also, as to going second more often than not: Good plan, but I think you can get away with going first if you bite the bullet and proactively use a Path to Exile in the early game to deal with a threat (Putrid Leech, for example), since most players will use the land searching, which will turn on Knight of the White Orchid for you.
Getting a Path in my opening hand is likely enough if I'm running 4 (which I'm trying to do). Getting a Knight of the White Orchid is similarly likely. Getting both is not. I can't afford to not make a drop turn 3 because I want to get the extra land turn 4.
Also, raise your land count if you want to play 4 copies of Emeria, or run a copy of two less and run more Plains. Having 4 means you'll draw it more often, but by the time it will be active you'll likely have drawn 1 anyway, and having too many makes all the other ones weaker (since you'll have less Plains in play by turns 8 or 9).
I'm thinking of cutting 1 or 2 Emeria for Path or something else.
I dont think i would run iona. I definitely would run 24 lands as you never want to miss a drop in a deck like this. I would run 4 fetchlands to thin the deck a little bit. A deck that uses ameria the sky ruin needs to be monowhite. Seven planes in lots and if you got other land type kicking around it will just never happen. I wouldn't run seraph. I would run silence as a sideboard card at most run safe passage as well as angel song for luminarch ascension. harm's way is also very good as it is a white shock and possibly 4 more spot removers.
Terrimorphic expanse is good but only as a 2-of. This deck plays nothing on turn 1 so the land you search for coming into play tapped is no bid deal and it helps you thin you deck out.
All that said, i still think it is too early to tell if this deck is going to be really good.
@haoban: You're right, it's a prevention effect (which I thought were replacement effects under a catch-all term). So um yeah, multiple Seraphs are damn right juicy.
The discussion seems to be pulling in 2 directions. The Luminarch side would run Wall of Reverence and Scepter, basically stalling to build enough counters to EoT turn 6 drop 3 angels (which would be very hard to deal with). The other side would run straight control. DoJ is definitely valid in the latter, maybe not so much the former except it really won't matter if you are wiping your side if you buy time to get the 4th quest counter. By then it's pretty much game over and if you can drop a Wall with some angels out, all the better.
Definitely both MWC but it seems to be fog/stall vs. pure control. Both seem to have potential and I can't wait to try them out (and MBC of course).
I actually don't think Felidar Sovereign will fit in at all. By the time you're close to having 40 life through lifelinked damage, your opponent is dead anyway. Futhermore, without evasion, first strike, or anything else to keep it alive, the cat dies way too easily to be a win con.
Agree, your big lifegainer is always BS Angel and that wins it already in the turns it would take you to get to 40 anyway.
The more and more I look at Luminarch Ascension, the more I just see it as absolutely busted. Seriously, dropping this on Turn 2 is almost going to be as backbreaking as BB turn 2; you have to deal with it asap or it gets absolutely nuts very fast. I really wish Peace of Mind were around then we could discuss all the excess copies and stall out. Or Gift of Estates would help too.
For the DoJ + Silence, I've been letting the other person play first, hitting a turn 3 Knight of the White Orchid, then dropping a land to bring it to 4 lands turn 3. This usually lets me hit 5 on turn 4.
So your DoJ is -1 on its card advantage because you lose your Knight. How is that good? Just play White Knight or Sigiled Paladin, trade profitably for something, then blow up his men once he recovers from that.
Hey, I'm not saying Cascade won't be big or playable. I'm just saying it might be a little early to determine the SB based on shaky metagame predictions. Time Sieve won our M10 Game Day, so I'll probably board some Relics of Progenitus. Other than that, I think I (and the rest of us) will have to wait for all of Zendikar to be spoiled.
Time Sieve isn't afraid of Relic. That's what we have Needles for.
Unless you are using Silence to protect a game breaking combo, it's, honestly, a particularly weak card.
Agreed. Though I've found I leave it in for game 2 against Bloodbraid Junk decks. That turn four is the best thing those decks have going for them. Stealing it from them really puts a lot of the players on tilt and they start thinking, not about how best to win, but about how to get revenge, and then they make mistakes.
It plays amazingly well with Baneslayer Angel and Elpseth, and feels especially daunting to an aggro player if you land it turn 3 using Knight of the White Orchid.
Now that is not easy to do.
Also, as to going second more often than not: Good plan, but I think you can get away with going first if you bite the bullet and proactively use a Path to Exile in the early game to deal with a threat (Putrid Leech, for example), since most players will use the land searching, which will turn on Knight of the White Orchid for you.
Well, yeah, White Orchid and Path are like peanut butter and chocolate. If you run one you should try to run the other.
I actually don't think Felidar Sovereign will fit in at all. By the time you're close to having 40 life through lifelinked damage, your opponent is dead anyway. Futhermore, without evasion, first strike, or anything else to keep it alive, the cat dies way too easily to be a win con.
Agree, your big lifegainer is always BS Angel and that wins it already in the turns it would take you to get to 40 anyway.
Has anyone but me noticed that Felidar Sovereign vs. Baneslayer Angel, all other things being equal, the Felidar Sovereign's controller wins the game?
Just wanted to point that out there. 4/6 flying LIFELINK VIGILANCE. So either Baneslayer goes on defensive, in which case BS controller gains 5 per turn and you gain 4 per turn. Or Baneslayer goes offensive, in which case BS controller gains 5 per turn and you gain 8 per turn and hit them for 4. One way or the other, you're both heading towards 40, but there's no party in store for Baneslayer's controller when HE gets there...
The more and more I look at Luminarch Ascension, the more I just see it as absolutely busted. Seriously, dropping this on Turn 2 is almost going to be as backbreaking as BB turn 2; you have to deal with it asap or it gets absolutely nuts very fast. I really wish Peace of Mind were around then we could discuss all the excess copies and stall out. Or Gift of Estates would help too.
lol. That would be insanely frustrating to play against... which is why I think WotC just might do it. Be on the lookout for G/W Luminarch Fog decks. (By including the eponymous instant, we have access to enough fogs to survive the loss of lullaby - and we might even get another one in ZEN, who knows? Most large sets have a fog of some kind.)
Has anyone but me noticed that Felidar Sovereign vs. Baneslayer Angel, all other things being equal, the Felidar Sovereign's controller wins the game?
Just wanted to point that out there. 4/6 flying LIFELINK VIGILANCE. So either Baneslayer goes on defensive, in which case BS controller gains 5 per turn and you gain 4 per turn. Or Baneslayer goes offensive, in which case BS controller gains 5 per turn and you gain 8 per turn and hit them for 4. One way or the other, you're both heading towards 40, but there's no party in store for Baneslayer's controller when HE gets there...
No flying on Felidar Sovereign. Otherwise he'd be a busted Serra Angel. Wait, no. That's already Baneslayer.
Whoa, Niddhog all up in my forums :p! Haha, jk. But really.
Baneslayer Angel is far, far better than Felidar Sovereign. In a constant trade, Baneslayer comes out on top because you're gaining one more life and dealing one more damage. Baneslayer comes out one turn sooner. Baneslayer has evasion (chump, chump, chump). Baneslayer has first strike. Sure, vigilance is nice. But a person playing Baneslayer is, in my experience and to the extent of my knowledge, unlikely to be swinging with ground-pounders simultaneously.
This is especially true since we seem to be talking about a matchup between MWC and MWC, one with Baneslayer and one with Felidar Sovereign. In other matchups, Baneslayer is strictly better for exactly the reasons I mentioned, and even protection factors in (Broodmate? Swing right through both of them. Warp into Bogardan Hellkite? Sorry, my Angel's off-limits.)
So your DoJ is -1 on its card advantage because you lose your Knight. How is that good? Just play White Knight or Sigiled Paladin, trade profitably for something, then blow up his men once he recovers from that.
What would you do with him? Single-handedly hold off the forces of the treacherous enemy? The way I see it, the Knight is for ramp, helping to get me up to the mana I need to be safe as fast as possible. Any creatures with a CC less than that of DoJ have to have an ability that justifies, because they will get blown up. Sure, I lose a little CA. It's not like he would have affected combat past turn 3 anyway.
Agreed. Though I've found I leave it in for game 2 against Bloodbraid Junk decks. That turn four is the best thing those decks have going for them. Stealing it from them really puts a lot of the players on tilt and they start thinking, not about how best to win, but about how to get revenge, and then they make mistakes.
I tend to value it as a good tempo kill before DoJ and after. If I don't have a Day in hand (or even if I do), a turn 2 Silence is great against aggro, especially if they miss the 1-drop. If I can Day on turn 4 with an extra mana (as I said, not so hard with a Knight, about whom I don't give a damn), it's a great way to have an opposition-free turn 5 'Slayer.
Has anyone but me noticed that Felidar Sovereign vs. Baneslayer Angel, all other things being equal, the Felidar Sovereign's controller wins the game?
Just wanted to point that out there. 4/6 flying LIFELINK VIGILANCE. So either Baneslayer goes on defensive, in which case BS controller gains 5 per turn and you gain 4 per turn. Or Baneslayer goes offensive, in which case BS controller gains 5 per turn and you gain 8 per turn and hit them for 4. One way or the other, you're both heading towards 40, but there's no party in store for Baneslayer's controller when HE gets there...
Um. No. The Sovereign doesn't fly, making it much, much weaker. No blocking the Baneslayer there. In a one-on-one, Baneslayer, as stated above, wins.
lol. That would be insanely frustrating to play against... which is why I think WotC just might do it. Be on the lookout for G/W Luminarch Fog decks. (By including the eponymous instant, we have access to enough fogs to survive the loss of lullaby - and we might even get another one in ZEN, who knows? Most large sets have a fog of some kind.)
This is essentially what my build is, minus Fog and green--use Safe Passage, Angelsong, and Day to stall 4 turns, then power out the 4/4s for the win. Fog and Dauntless Escort are my big temptations to go green.
Baneslayer Angel is far, far better than Felidar Sovereign. In a constant trade, Baneslayer comes out on top because you're gaining one more life and dealing one more damage. Baneslayer comes out one turn sooner. Baneslayer has evasion (chump, chump, chump). Baneslayer has first strike. Sure, vigilance is nice. But a person playing Baneslayer is, in my experience and to the extent of my knowledge, unlikely to be swinging with ground-pounders simultaneously.
K, my bad. This is one of those Whippoorwill situations. Felidar sure LOOKS like it flies, crouched up on that high rock. I need to RTFC in future.
Still, 4/6 vig lifelink doesn't die to much in Standard post-rotation. I'd not think it healthy to scoff at this thing. If properly backed up it is a win-con all by itself. (For instance, how about combining it with Baneslayer and Walls of Reverence and Elspeth for ridiculous lifegain shenanigans?).
K, my bad. This is one of those Whippoorwill situations. Felidar sure LOOKS like it flies, crouched up on that high rock. I need to RTFC in future.
Still, 4/6 vig lifelink doesn't die to much in Standard post-rotation. I'd not think it healthy to scoff at this thing. If properly backed up it is a win-con all by itself. (For instance, how about combining it with Baneslayer and Walls of Reverence and Elspeth for ridiculous lifegain shenanigans?).
But really, by the time you have Baneslayer, Wall of Reverence, and Elspeth out, do you actually need another win con?
So your DoJ is -1 on its card advantage because you lose your Knight. How is that good? Just play White Knight or Sigiled Paladin, trade profitably for something, then blow up his men once he recovers from that.
Shouldn't the knight have given you a land to make it break even on CA?
Yeah, but his point is that you can make that CA and then keep it by holding onto the Knight of the White Orchid. I personally think an earlier Day of Judgment, with Silence if possible, is worth more than one KotWO
K, my bad. This is one of those Whippoorwill situations. Felidar sure LOOKS like it flies, crouched up on that high rock. I need to RTFC in future.
Still, 4/6 vig lifelink doesn't die to much in Standard post-rotation. I'd not think it healthy to scoff at this thing. If properly backed up it is a win-con all by itself. (For instance, how about combining it with Baneslayer and Walls of Reverence and Elspeth for ridiculous lifegain shenanigans?).
Wait.
Doesn't die to much? What kind of removal suite are you thinking of...
Doesn't die to much? What kind of removal suite are you thinking of...
Path, Blade, hell, even the new hideous end!
I guess it doesn't die to bolt?
I should have said in combat. BS Angel is vulnerable to all those spells as well & that doesn't prevent it from being the best card in standard... of course, it costs 1 less, which is crucial.
I should have said in combat. BS Angel is vulnerable to all those spells as well & that doesn't prevent it from being the best card in standard... of course, it costs 1 less, which is crucial.
I think we can end discussion of Felidar Sovereign. Basically it's a creature whose P/T are too low for it to be good and whose abilities, while cool, are not enough to make it playable. Unless, of course, you plan on playing with Celestial Mantle--another bad card.
Baneslayer Angel: a 5/5 for 5 with 3 relevant abilities.
Felidar Sovereign: a 4/6 for 6 with 2 relevant abilities (neither of which is evasion).
Do the math. Can you imagine how much people would complain if Baneslayer 2.0 in M11 turned out to be a 4/6 Flying, First Strike, Lifelink for 5?
I am not a huge fan of World Queller, although many people in this thread have suggested it. What are you going to choose most of the time, BEFORE Emeria is on line? Creature? You're not running enough to reliably do so, especially with mass removal. In this deck, I have artifacts and enchantments maindecked, so really, world queller is too much.
Guardian Seraph, on the other hand, is an underrated, defensive card that I'm always happy to see. The evasion also solidifies it as a possible win condition, since he has a built-in anti-outracing mechanic. I can see no fewer than 4 baneslayer either. Recurring Baneslayer poses problems for... decks... that... people play.
I am experimenting with 4x glassdust hulk as well. Everything gets more consistent with some early cycling, you hit your land drops more often, and you'll always have something to reanimate with Emeria. I also endorse Armillary Sphere.
I think trying to build with luminarch ascension is good, but you have to focus the deck around it pretty tightly. Also, in response to Squall's question in the other thread, I am unsure if Kor Cartographers would be necessary. Most of the time, this deck is getting 8 lands by turns 8, 9 or 10. And the 4 spot is pretty crowded...
I like the tempo kill that Silence affords me. If I can keep my opponent on that one Elite Vanguard for a turn and just take the beat, I'll be one land closer to DoJ, Baneslayer, or Martial Coup. Speaking of Martial Coup, it gives more utility as a sweeper than as a win con (although it is that too).
The eight fog effects are there with or without Luminarch Ascension, because against aggro they essentially steal turns. I have Emerias for control. I think Luminarch Ascension will actually be very easy to activate in this build, with the fog plus the turn after Day of Judgment and the stalling that Baneslayer provides. I considered Elspeths maindecked, but I'm not convinced about the idea. I think I would prefer to go with stall into the late game then play big Angels/Coup for 5+. Plus, if I were to run World Queller, Elspeth would eliminate a great deal of its usefulness.
I don't like O-Ring greatly in this deck. It seems to provide too much of a slowdown. I would rather have them play creatures, fog, then sweep them all on turn 4. I would say SB at most.
I will consider Wall of Reverence. I'm not sure about it yet.
How can you say Cascade will be popular? For one, that'll depend on the location: I haven't seen any Cascade-based decks around here. Also, it could be that something else will be the deck to beat (like, say, Time Sieve). I use Silence for reasons other than Cascade, like the opponent's turn after a DoJ, when it's effectively a Time Warp.
I also considered Scepter of Dominance, eventually discarding the idea because I felt it was less relevant than anything I had maindecked, and my sideboard is (for now) fitted for what I think my metagame will be.
This is an excellent way to use Silence, but it means you need 5 mana for DoJ. I assume you silence after your second DoJ?
As for Cascade, it seems simple to me. Once Lorwyn goes out, people are going to be casting about for a tried and tested deck archetype while the ZEN metagame sorts itself out. We'll be left with Warp World, Time Sieve, this deck, the all-too-obvious Vampires.dec, and... Cascade. Which IS a valid deck archetype, are you kidding me? Just because Baneslayer Angel is our new honey pie, don't forget that Bloodbraid Elf is a totally sick card. Cascade is a proven strong mechanic; it was able to go toe to toe with the ridiculously broken Faeries and come out on top its share of the time. It loses very little to the transition. It will definitely have at least a short resurgence as a known quantity.
I agree with whoever it was above that said that Scepter is good against Aggro for making them overextend into DoJ. I remember using Icy + Wrath the same way back in the day. (Or better yet, Propaganda + Wrath... It's also good against Baneslayer control decks because their win condition is "make the big girl, defend her" and then they're stuck with this unwanted minigame called "make the scepter go away or I can't win".
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
For the DoJ + Silence, I've been letting the other person play first, hitting a turn 3 Knight of the White Orchid, then dropping a land to bring it to 4 lands turn 3. This usually lets me hit 5 on turn 4.
Hey, I'm not saying Cascade won't be big or playable. I'm just saying it might be a little early to determine the SB based on shaky metagame predictions. Time Sieve won our M10 Game Day, so I'll probably board some Relics of Progenitus. Other than that, I think I (and the rest of us) will have to wait for all of Zendikar to be spoiled.
Again, I'll reconsider the Scepter. I'm not sure of its place, but I won't dismiss it offhand. I think fog's doing a fine job of drawing opponents out, but clearly more playtesting is required (and we still have almost 3 weeks before release, so. . . ).
The reason Cascade is bound to be a force in the metagame is because of the ridiculous power of the archetype, as it was probably the best deck available in Alara Block Constructed. And while Zendikar adds 200 new cards, it's not unheard of for the best deck pre-rotation to keep its power level post-rotation as long as its key components were there (in a similiar vein, the transition from Time Spiral to Lorwyn that led to Fae dominance was, in part, backed by the fact that Blue/black control was already an excellent deck that just happened to get a super-synergistic creature base). Bituminous Blast and Bloodbraid Elf are 2 of the most powerful cards in Alara Block, and will continue to see play for the foreseeable future in both full on Cascade decks, or in Jund Midrange/Cascade decks.
Your reason for running Silence is pretty flawed, honestly. Casting it early is weak, as you woul rather have your opponent apply a considerable amount of pressure in the early turns for you to get card advantage from your Day of Judgment. And while it seems potent to cast it after wiping the board, that means you'll be casting Day on turn 5 and leaving a mana open, whereas you should be casting it turn 4, letting your opponent try to re-establish board presence, and then denying them that pleasure by dropping a Baneslayer Angel. Unless you are using Silence to protect a game breaking combo, it's, honestly, a particularly weak card.
Your argument for using Martial Coup here is a bit redundant since it is only a sweeper when you are casting it as a Win condition. You don't need 6 sweepers in a deck that is planning on taking control of the board by resolving an efficient sweeper (Day) and following it up with a creature with almost unmatched board presence (Baneslayer) or another board-controlling win condition (Elspeth). I like the card a lot, but I do not think it is very useful here. If you run Sceptre of Dominance (and you should, because it is awesme), by the time you can cast Martial Coup profitably you probably have mana to cast Iona, who will likely win you the game if she resolves.
You don't need to run Fog effects unless you are not going to interfere with your opponent's board presence for a large part of the game. They will be dead cards against lots of midrange and control decks (and having to cycle Angelsong is just a nuissance) and, even against aggro, force you to play reactively. You want to play mono-White control as a Tap-Out control deck. Life gain suits the purpose considerably better, which is why I would run Wall of Reverence. It gains you life, and stops a whole ton of playable creatures from attacking profitably into the red zone. It plays amazingly well with Baneslayer Angel and Elpseth, and feels especially daunting to an aggro player if you land it turn 3 using Knight of the White Orchid.
Also, as to going second more often than not: Good plan, but I think you can get away with going first if you bite the bullet and proactively use a Path to Exile in the early game to deal with a threat (Putrid Leech, for example), since most players will use the land searching, which will turn on Knight of the White Orchid for you.
Also, raise your land count if you want to play 4 copies of Emeria, or run a copy of two less and run more Plains. Having 4 means you'll draw it more often, but by the time it will be active you'll likely have drawn 1 anyway, and having too many makes all the other ones weaker (since you'll have less Plains in play by turns 8 or 9).
Well, we'll see. I'm not denying your logic, just keeping my SB options open. However, I would like to note that some of the fog you're blasting, Safe Passage, is great vs. a turn 5 Bituminous into Bloodbraid (If I even have a creature out). Why is Bituminous good? Because it kills stuff. Not with Safe Passage. Why is Bloodbraid good, especially off the back of a Bituminous? Because it smacks for 3. Not with Safe Passage. Safe Passage vs. aggro and midrange almost always results in a stolen turn (and completely ruins Warp World), and it can also shut down some control late-game.
As I explained in a previous post, the idea is to get 5 or 6 mana by turn 4 with Knight of the White Orchid/Path to Exile. If I do get a Knight, then the turn 4 DoJ/Silence is entirely feasible.
And besides, if I play Silence before turn 4/DoJ, they might assume I'm trying to hold them back because I don't have it and therefore try to play out their hand as fast as possible.
Profitable Coup: 7 mana
Iona: 9 mana
There is a distinction. Coup is especially devastating two or three turns after a DoJ if they rebuild their board with the creatures they weren't overextending with. Iona won't stop a full board by herself, especially against two or more colors.
Yes, I am still considering Scepter of Dominance and Wall of Reverence. I will continue to do so.
If I do that, don't I kinda defeat the purpose of turn 4 DoJ because I'd be destroying my own side of the 'field?
Getting a Path in my opening hand is likely enough if I'm running 4 (which I'm trying to do). Getting a Knight of the White Orchid is similarly likely. Getting both is not. I can't afford to not make a drop turn 3 because I want to get the extra land turn 4.
I'm thinking of cutting 1 or 2 Emeria for Path or something else.
Terrimorphic expanse is good but only as a 2-of. This deck plays nothing on turn 1 so the land you search for coming into play tapped is no bid deal and it helps you thin you deck out.
All that said, i still think it is too early to tell if this deck is going to be really good.
The discussion seems to be pulling in 2 directions. The Luminarch side would run Wall of Reverence and Scepter, basically stalling to build enough counters to EoT turn 6 drop 3 angels (which would be very hard to deal with). The other side would run straight control. DoJ is definitely valid in the latter, maybe not so much the former except it really won't matter if you are wiping your side if you buy time to get the 4th quest counter. By then it's pretty much game over and if you can drop a Wall with some angels out, all the better.
Definitely both MWC but it seems to be fog/stall vs. pure control. Both seem to have potential and I can't wait to try them out (and MBC of course).
2 Emeria, the sky ruin
4 Harm's Way
4 Path to Exile
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Angelsong
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Safe Passage
4 Day of Judgment
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Baneslayer Angel
2 Felidar Sovereign
The more and more I look at Luminarch Ascension, the more I just see it as absolutely busted. Seriously, dropping this on Turn 2 is almost going to be as backbreaking as BB turn 2; you have to deal with it asap or it gets absolutely nuts very fast. I really wish Peace of Mind were around then we could discuss all the excess copies and stall out. Or Gift of Estates would help too.
So your DoJ is -1 on its card advantage because you lose your Knight. How is that good? Just play White Knight or Sigiled Paladin, trade profitably for something, then blow up his men once he recovers from that.
Time Sieve isn't afraid of Relic. That's what we have Needles for.
Agreed. Though I've found I leave it in for game 2 against Bloodbraid Junk decks. That turn four is the best thing those decks have going for them. Stealing it from them really puts a lot of the players on tilt and they start thinking, not about how best to win, but about how to get revenge, and then they make mistakes.
Now that is not easy to do.
Well, yeah, White Orchid and Path are like peanut butter and chocolate. If you run one you should try to run the other.
Has anyone but me noticed that Felidar Sovereign vs. Baneslayer Angel, all other things being equal, the Felidar Sovereign's controller wins the game?
Just wanted to point that out there. 4/6 flying LIFELINK VIGILANCE. So either Baneslayer goes on defensive, in which case BS controller gains 5 per turn and you gain 4 per turn. Or Baneslayer goes offensive, in which case BS controller gains 5 per turn and you gain 8 per turn and hit them for 4. One way or the other, you're both heading towards 40, but there's no party in store for Baneslayer's controller when HE gets there...
lol. That would be insanely frustrating to play against... which is why I think WotC just might do it. Be on the lookout for G/W Luminarch Fog decks. (By including the eponymous instant, we have access to enough fogs to survive the loss of lullaby - and we might even get another one in ZEN, who knows? Most large sets have a fog of some kind.)
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
No flying on Felidar Sovereign. Otherwise he'd be a busted Serra Angel. Wait, no. That's already Baneslayer.
Baneslayer Angel is far, far better than Felidar Sovereign. In a constant trade, Baneslayer comes out on top because you're gaining one more life and dealing one more damage. Baneslayer comes out one turn sooner. Baneslayer has evasion (chump, chump, chump). Baneslayer has first strike. Sure, vigilance is nice. But a person playing Baneslayer is, in my experience and to the extent of my knowledge, unlikely to be swinging with ground-pounders simultaneously.
This is especially true since we seem to be talking about a matchup between MWC and MWC, one with Baneslayer and one with Felidar Sovereign. In other matchups, Baneslayer is strictly better for exactly the reasons I mentioned, and even protection factors in (Broodmate? Swing right through both of them. Warp into Bogardan Hellkite? Sorry, my Angel's off-limits.)
What would you do with him? Single-handedly hold off the forces of the treacherous enemy? The way I see it, the Knight is for ramp, helping to get me up to the mana I need to be safe as fast as possible. Any creatures with a CC less than that of DoJ have to have an ability that justifies, because they will get blown up. Sure, I lose a little CA. It's not like he would have affected combat past turn 3 anyway.
That remains to be seen. Needles serve as a double-edged sword.
I tend to value it as a good tempo kill before DoJ and after. If I don't have a Day in hand (or even if I do), a turn 2 Silence is great against aggro, especially if they miss the 1-drop. If I can Day on turn 4 with an extra mana (as I said, not so hard with a Knight, about whom I don't give a damn), it's a great way to have an opposition-free turn 5 'Slayer.
Um. No. The Sovereign doesn't fly, making it much, much weaker. No blocking the Baneslayer there. In a one-on-one, Baneslayer, as stated above, wins.
This is essentially what my build is, minus Fog and green--use Safe Passage, Angelsong, and Day to stall 4 turns, then power out the 4/4s for the win. Fog and Dauntless Escort are my big temptations to go green.
K, my bad. This is one of those Whippoorwill situations. Felidar sure LOOKS like it flies, crouched up on that high rock. I need to RTFC in future.
Still, 4/6 vig lifelink doesn't die to much in Standard post-rotation. I'd not think it healthy to scoff at this thing. If properly backed up it is a win-con all by itself. (For instance, how about combining it with Baneslayer and Walls of Reverence and Elspeth for ridiculous lifegain shenanigans?).
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
But really, by the time you have Baneslayer, Wall of Reverence, and Elspeth out, do you actually need another win con?
Shouldn't the knight have given you a land to make it break even on CA?
Wait.
Doesn't die to much? What kind of removal suite are you thinking of...
Path, Blade, hell, even the new hideous end!
I guess it doesn't die to bolt?
I should have said in combat. BS Angel is vulnerable to all those spells as well & that doesn't prevent it from being the best card in standard... of course, it costs 1 less, which is crucial.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
I think we can end discussion of Felidar Sovereign. Basically it's a creature whose P/T are too low for it to be good and whose abilities, while cool, are not enough to make it playable. Unless, of course, you plan on playing with Celestial Mantle--another bad card.
Baneslayer Angel: a 5/5 for 5 with 3 relevant abilities.
Felidar Sovereign: a 4/6 for 6 with 2 relevant abilities (neither of which is evasion).
Do the math. Can you imagine how much people would complain if Baneslayer 2.0 in M11 turned out to be a 4/6 Flying, First Strike, Lifelink for 5?
4 Guardian Seraph
4 Glassdust Hulk
4 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Knight-Captain of Eos
4 Path to Exile
4 Day of Judgment
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Staff of Dominance
4 Emeria, The Sky Ruin
20 Plains
I am not a huge fan of World Queller, although many people in this thread have suggested it. What are you going to choose most of the time, BEFORE Emeria is on line? Creature? You're not running enough to reliably do so, especially with mass removal. In this deck, I have artifacts and enchantments maindecked, so really, world queller is too much.
Guardian Seraph, on the other hand, is an underrated, defensive card that I'm always happy to see. The evasion also solidifies it as a possible win condition, since he has a built-in anti-outracing mechanic. I can see no fewer than 4 baneslayer either. Recurring Baneslayer poses problems for... decks... that... people play.
I am experimenting with 4x glassdust hulk as well. Everything gets more consistent with some early cycling, you hit your land drops more often, and you'll always have something to reanimate with Emeria. I also endorse Armillary Sphere.
I think trying to build with luminarch ascension is good, but you have to focus the deck around it pretty tightly. Also, in response to Squall's question in the other thread, I am unsure if Kor Cartographers would be necessary. Most of the time, this deck is getting 8 lands by turns 8, 9 or 10. And the 4 spot is pretty crowded...