I believe the biggest part of the problem is that it is impossible to make a control deck without at least splashing blue, and hosing blue(especially after the loss of wrath) isn't making a color weaker it is making an archetype weaker.
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1-Copy effects
2-Control changing effects
3-Text changing effects
4-Type changing effects
5-Color changing effects
6-Giving/Taking Abilities
7a-*/* setting effects
7b-All effects not described in other layer 6 effects
7c-Counters
7d-Static abilities that don't set P/T (Crusade effects)
7e-Switching P/T
So because lorwyn got CC and broken ambitions (which is really subpar, though still playable, in my opinion), blue mages don't deserve anything like a remotely good finisher or a good card drawing spell (because Mulldrifter is the only card drawing spell that I can think of that's seeing any play, and that will likely diminish greatly if U/W lark falls out of the format), or ONE more decent counterspell (mana leak would not have broken the format in half poeple)?
Right, they don't get it in the core set. In my post two posts ago, I said that I trust the WotC won't allow the game to be unbalanced for too long. So, because control was too good previously, they are not giving it new more spectacular tools in the core set.
I'm not saying control is getting stronger, that would untrue, control is just as strong, it looses nothing, agro just gains. However, I am now cautious, with agro getting better, unless control (specificaly blue based control) gets something in Zendikar, I will join the outrages masses, untill then, I'm content with my Faeries.
Edit: I do agree on your card drawing point. That pisses me off to no end, would some good instant speed card draw be too much? I would kill for thirst for knowledge. Relying on Jace and Cryptic to be a consistent good CA engine is not fun. Jace dies to agro, and I often need to tap or bounce with cryptic against agro decks.
Control really hasn't updated much since Shards(and very little in shards) where wotc just keeps printing better and better creatures. Creatures are getting better where counterspells and mass removal keep getting worse. Not saying that volcanic fallout is bad, but It doesn't do what wrath did. If faeries aren't around fallout doesn't really see play, because it gets replaced with the better firespout. Faeries are the last controly deck that is left in the format as 5cc has all but vanished due to cascade and anathemancer, and lark gets hosed by the loss of wrath, and mindstone. It is very hard to play control these days.
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1-Copy effects
2-Control changing effects
3-Text changing effects
4-Type changing effects
5-Color changing effects
6-Giving/Taking Abilities
7a-*/* setting effects
7b-All effects not described in other layer 6 effects
7c-Counters
7d-Static abilities that don't set P/T (Crusade effects)
7e-Switching P/T
The issue with blue based control in the current format isn't the aggro decks. Its Faeries. No matter how good you build your control deck, it just can't beat the raw synnergy of faeries and the two MASSIVE issues of Bitteblossom and that Faeries does what every control deck has always wished it could. Play its ENTIRE game in its opponent's turn. The crutch for so many blue based control decks IS NOT the so called poor counters, but rather the fact that Faeries is a mockery of blue based control.
Llark would be more viable without Faeries.
UBW Sphinx Control as its often referred to these days would very likely be huge.
5cc would make a return. The rumours of Cascade Swans and Anathemancer killing 5cc are greatly exagerated. What killed 5cc was the fact that CascadeSwans opened the door for Faeries to re-enter the metagame numbers again.
The single most inhibiting factor for control in the current metagame is Faeries. But is not that they are overpowered, but merely that they make life for any other form of control extremely difficult. Blue in Lorwyn was just way too focussed on Faeries. All the other colours still offer alot outside of their 'core' tribes. Its this 'lack' of blue power outside of Faeries from Lorwyn that have so many of us feeling like Blue got the shaft, when in fact Blue and its raw synergy with its Faeries tribe is its own worst enemy in constructed formats that support the deck archtype. (True, Merfolk had a little run, but that was more a UW aggrofish deck unfortunately which doesn't help Blues cause)
With Lorwyn/Shadowmoor giving us Spellstutter Sprite, Negate and Broken Ambitions with Remove Soul in 10th edition, the premiere blue based deck (faeries) had a lot going for it, to the point that many wanted it banned. Sure, they didn't push the 2cmc in Alara. But aren't you glad about that? Imagin what would've happened with Faeries. Hell, imagin if faeries got their hands on instand speed, cheap card draw, general blue based control decks would've been left to rot in the gutter rather than being tier1.5 like they are currently. Like I said, Blue and its little petdeck, Faeries, is its own worst enemy. When Lorwyn rotates, expect the wrongs of the format to fix themselves, rather than go pear shaped as its the messup with Lorwyn's blue that has Blue based control in the situation its in, in the first place.
Right, they don't get it in the core set. In my post two posts ago, I said that I trust the WotC won't allow the game to be unbalanced for too long. So, because control was too good previously, they are not giving it new more spectacular tools in the core set.
I'm not saying control is getting stronger, that would untrue, control is just as strong, it looses nothing, agro just gains. However, I am now cautious, with agro getting better, unless control (specificaly blue based control) gets something in Zendikar, I will join the outrages masses, untill then, I'm content with my Faeries.
Edit: I do agree on your card drawing point. That pisses me off to no end, would some good instant speed card draw be too much? I would kill for thirst for knowledge. Relying on Jace and Cryptic to be a consistent good CA engine is not fun. Jace dies to agro, and I often need to tap or bounce with cryptic against agro decks.
Thank you for agreeing with me on the card drawing aspect.
I don't know if it was just my fnm, but control for the past 4 years (except faeries, which, once again I hate to no end), has been on a pretty even level with aggro decks (and dragonstorm when it was around). While I hated not having counterspell, I found mana leak, remand, rewind, rune snag, and hinder to excellent compensations for the loss of the card. During Kam-Rav and Rav-Tsp, gruul, zoo, and gargadon red were always placing high in the tournaments at our cardshop, as were d-storm, draulnu, pickles (less often, but I did get 1,2, and 3 with it at least once (over the course of like 4 months mind you)). I felt wizards had crafted the perfect game where a player could make any deck they wanted and could have a good time playing the game (though the ~$200 mana base was ******** and something should have been done about it).
Today though, control just hasn't been seen at my meta that recently (I always play it, but it has been going through some turbulent times since Alara Reborn), and if there is it either a) is faeries, or b) doesn't do that well. I respect other people's opinions, and I can understand that control may have frustrated you in the past and you may feel that the meta is balanced now, but it really doesn't seem like it in my eyes. Blue, to me, really needs a two mana unconditional counter (like mana leak, remand , or rune snag) in order for it to have a good shot in the meta.
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I agree with that sentiment. However, for right now, control players will have to endure the three months of good conditional counters. Like I have said and will continue to say, right now, control is still viable, but not dominant. If the meta shifts to nearly all agro decks, I will start to play remove soul main. If zendikar does not bring a good, unconditional, 2 mana counter, I will join you in saying the meta is flawed and that control is dead.
My ideal counter
nu-Counterspell UU
as an aditional cost to play ~ pay 2 life
Counter target spell
yes, it's worse than counterspell, but it gets the job done, espicially since with Duress comming back and no more pains, control players need some ways to hurt themselves. The life loss might be fine as part of the resolution, like TS, but this is ok too.
Its like this:
Who wants Faeries to get a no nonsense 2cmc counter to support its spellstutters?
Who wants Faeries to get a instant, cheap card draw?
Defintely not your blue based control players who're fed up piloting Faeries which is a large portion of the field these days. So, what do you do, settle playing a deck that's tier 1 or get the cards you want with the severe drawback of your deck now not being viable at all thanks to Faeries getting the same boost pushing you completely out of the metagame.
How ironic. Blue obviously got bored of beating the format up, and in its insane drive to fine worthy competition its turned on itself:)
(sorry for effective double post, somehow managed to miss my previous post and thought it hadn't gone through)
I agree with that sentiment. However, for right now, control players will have to endure the three months of good conditional counters. Like I have said and will continue to say, right now, control is still viable, but not dominant. If the meta shifts to nearly all agro decks, I will start to play remove soul main. If zendikar does not bring a good, unconditional, 2 mana counter, I will join you in saying the meta is flawed and that control is dead.
My ideal counter
nu-Counterspell UU
as an aditional cost to play ~ pay 2 life
Counter target spell
yes, it's worse than counterspell, but it gets the job done, espicially since with Duress comming back and no more pains, control players need some ways to hurt themselves. The life loss might be fine as part of the resolution, like TS, but this is ok too.
Im sorry, but these arguments are just driving me absolutely nutty. Do you realize what blue will have to have to make it control viable?
Card Draw Replacement
A Good finisher
Solid late game counter
Solid 2 mana counter
Yes, I do know, it has two of those 4 right now in pure blue, Cryptic, and Mistblind Clique, then depending on what other colors you play it can have a variety of other finishers. The main problems are lack of good card draw and lack of a 2 mana counter. Like I said, right now, It's still perfectly viable, however; if it does not get a good late game counter and good finisher again, and it does not get good card draw and a good 2 mana counter, it will be problem. So, as I have said several times, control is still alive in Faeries and 5-Color, but unless it can get these good things back and then some in Zendikar, it will be dead. M10, didn't kill control, Zendikar might.
Looking at the M10 list and comparing it to 10th edition, I came up with 4 cards that both dont get a replacement in M10 and really ever saw play.
Boomerang, Evacuation, Reminice, Tidings*. (Faerie Conclave)**(Countered by the lack of the other colors having them as well though making it easier on blue overall)
Against aggro decks or with some sort of a mono blue deck both boomerang and evacuation are painful losses. Reminice was sort of a niche card but saw some play at our local fnms. Technically tidings got replaced by Mind Spring it just effectively costs one more mana to get the effect.
All in all I would say the two cards that truely matter for going from 10th to M10 were boomerang and evacuation. I will conceed that those two cards are certainly a loss for blue, but really they appear to be the only real losses that blue had with this core set vs 10th edition.
So I guess what Im getting at, since people seemed okay with the state of the format previously when 10th was around, Blue is still about the same as it was.
Now admittedly with all the crazy aggro stuff running around this certainly does seem to imbalace blue to the rest of the set, however you cannot really just look at the set in a vaccume. Blue is still quite good in the current standard, lots of cards that are blue, or have blue in them are being played in standard right now, at least as many as there are things like G/R, R/B, etc Aggro decks running around (crazy cascade stuff et all). The fact of the matter is, Shards block was a multi-color block, so there isnt really a whole lot of mono-colored assistance for blue. However there are plenty of good gold cards that use blue in bant/grixis/esper shards, and other 2-color cards that have blue in them that are still quite good.
The loss of the man-lands in standard as well actually helps blue (sure they cannot use faerie conclave now) but they dont have to worry about being killed by uncounterable pesky lands like ghitu encampment and treetop village.
I think the format will be okay, and blue will still see plenty of play for now and into the future, just be aware that in a gold-format you have to expect that a mono-colored strategy isnt going to be the norm by any means, and this will become more than likely ever the more apparent when the rotation occurs in october depending upon what zendikar brings us.
Just a few thoughts based upon what Ive seen at our fnms in recent history.
Looking at the M10 list and comparing it to 10th edition, I came up with 4 cards that both dont get a replacement in M10 and really ever saw play.
Boomerang, Evacuation, Reminice, Tidings*. (Faerie Conclave)**(Countered by the lack of the other colors having them as well though making it easier on blue overall)
Against aggro decks or with some sort of a mono blue deck both boomerang and evacuation are painful losses. Reminice was sort of a niche card but saw some play at our local fnms. Technically tidings got replaced by Mind Spring it just effectively costs one more mana to get the effect.
All in all I would say the two cards that truely matter for going from 10th to M10 were boomerang and evacuation. I will conceed that those two cards are certainly a loss for blue, but really they appear to be the only real losses that blue had with this core set vs 10th edition.
So I guess what Im getting at, since people seemed okay with the state of the format previously when 10th was around, Blue is still about the same as it was.
Now admittedly with all the crazy aggro stuff running around this certainly does seem to imbalace blue to the rest of the set, however you cannot really just look at the set in a vaccume. Blue is still quite good in the current standard, lots of cards that are blue, or have blue in them are being played in standard right now, at least as many as there are things like G/R, R/B, etc Aggro decks running around (crazy cascade stuff et all). The fact of the matter is, Shards block was a multi-color block, so there isnt really a whole lot of mono-colored assistance for blue. However there are plenty of good gold cards that use blue in bant/grixis/esper shards, and other 2-color cards that have blue in them that are still quite good.
The loss of the man-lands in standard as well actually helps blue (sure they cannot use faerie conclave now) but they dont have to worry about being killed by uncounterable pesky lands like ghitu encampment and treetop village.
I think the format will be okay, and blue will still see plenty of play for now and into the future, just be aware that in a gold-format you have to expect that a mono-colored strategy isnt going to be the norm by any means, and this will become more than likely ever the more apparent when the rotation occurs in october depending upon what zendikar brings us.
Just a few thoughts based upon what Ive seen at our fnms in recent history.
I saw someone saying that blue will never compare to what white was, where it had one good card (wrath) and WW. That is exactly what blue is right now, a card that everyone splashes for and a tribe thats good. Outside of that, bue has nothing going for it.
Sorry for all this trolling, but I'm bored and at work, sue me.
Anyway, I would just like to agree with jeffbcrandall. Blue is not losing most of it's core set tools, and is actually gaining Sleep, which will help against agro decks. Also, the absence of most man lands is very good. Mutavault is still available, but no more treetop village is an incredible boon. And simply because I feel obliged to say it in every post, blue may be dying, but we won't know untill Zendikar, untill then it's still healthy(ish).
Edit: yes, but that's just in the core set. As long as cards like Cryptic command and various other good members of the Fae, like Sower of Temptation, exist, you can still main blue.
I agree with that sentiment. However, for right now, control players will have to endure the three months of good conditional counters. Like I have said and will continue to say, right now, control is still viable, but not dominant. If the meta shifts to nearly all agro decks, I will start to play remove soul main. If zendikar does not bring a good, unconditional, 2 mana counter, I will join you in saying the meta is flawed and that control is dead.
My ideal counter
nu-Counterspell UU
as an aditional cost to play ~ pay 2 life
Counter target spell
yes, it's worse than counterspell, but it gets the job done, espicially since with Duress comming back and no more pains, control players need some ways to hurt themselves. The life loss might be fine as part of the resolution, like TS, but this is ok too.
I would hate to see that counterspell. Mainly because it's at most an UB card as opposed to mono-U. When will people realize that paying resources (life, creatures, lands and so on) to save mana is black's domain (and red when it comes down to generate fast mana)? cards that let you exchange life for speed are black. trying to make a blue one is just what blue's been doing for the past 13 years: getting other colors' strenghts and using it as if it were its own. and we certainly don't need that. A "fair" hard counterspell (counter it, no questions asked) DO exist, at a price tag of 1UU. It sucks, but until they decide it's fair again to price it at UU (you never know, ppl never expected to see Lightning Bolt back so), it's what we're going to get.
I agree that blue got the short end of the stick in m10, but hey, there are some pretty amazing cards. I for one already am a fan of the three wishes djinn, and I believe that we can't hold judgment until the full set is spoiled.
Yes, I do know, it has ONE of those 4 right now in pure blue, Cryptic Command, then depending on what other colors you play it can have a variety of other finishers. The main problems are lack of good card draw and lack of a 2 mana counter and lack of a mono-blue finisher. Like I said, right now, It's still perfectly viable, however; if it does not get a good late game counter and good finisher again, and it does not get good card draw and a good 2 mana counter, it will be problem. So, as I have said several times, control is still alive in Faeries and 5-Color, but unless it can get these good things back and then some in Zendikar, it will be dead. M10, didn't kill control, Zendikar might.
Fixed because mistbind is only good in faeries and forced you to play a tribal theme faeries deck if you want to use it as a finisher. A real blue finisher should be able to operate in a variety of control decks (such as keiga, teferi, etc), and not be limited to one particular deck (especially when that deck is really aggro-control, not control).
Edit:
I guess there is always Oona, but she really hasn't seen that much play, except briefly in quick n toast.
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I agree that blue got the short end of the stick in m10, but hey, there are some pretty amazing cards. I for one already am a fan of the three wishes djinn, and I believe that we can't hold judgment until the full set is spoiled.
With the exception of 10 green cards, the entire set is spoiled. I don't think those 10 green cards will change blue's situation.
Fair enough, let's throw Oona in then. If we're discussing pure control she fits. if she lives for as little as a turn you can create an army of token, remove a relevant amount of the opponents threats, and deal some damage. Like Meiloku. The main problems it faces are removal, but, given that we are playing control, we should have answers, like negate, countersquall, or cryptic. Alternately, we could go with Inkwell Levithian. It does not need protection, and with 11 toughness won't be killed easily. Blue does have finishers.
I agree with that sentiment. However, for right now, control players will have to endure the three months of good conditional counters. Like I have said and will continue to say, right now, control is still viable, but not dominant. If the meta shifts to nearly all agro decks, I will start to play remove soul main. If zendikar does not bring a good, unconditional, 2 mana counter, I will join you in saying the meta is flawed and that control is dead.
My ideal counter
nu-Counterspell UU
as an aditional cost to play ~ pay 2 life
Counter target spell
yes, it's worse than counterspell, but it gets the job done, espicially since with Duress comming back and no more pains, control players need some ways to hurt themselves. The life loss might be fine as part of the resolution, like TS, but this is ok too.
that should never be printed. using life as a resource is black's philosophy (and occasionally red's Goblin Artillery, Char) and should never EVER be an ability of a LAND for christ's sake! (painlands, shocklands)
Recent discussions here and elsewhere have made it clear that there seems to be a group of players who consider blue and control synonymous, as if they somehow started playing a game with four identical and "bad" colors that do nothing interesting because they just "turn men sideways" and then true, glorious blue, the only thinking person's color.
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Fair enough, let's throw Oona in then. If we're discussing pure control she fits. if she lives for as little as a turn you can create an army of token, remove a relevant amount of the opponents threats, and deal some damage. Like Meiloku. The main problems it faces are removal, but, given that we are playing control, we should have answers, like negate, countersquall, or cryptic. Alternately, we could go with Inkwell Levithian. It does not need protection, and with 11 toughness won't be killed easily. Blue does have finishers.
I don't mean to be derisive, but do not even begin to relate Oona to meloku. Her token producing ability is very inconsistent (espicially in todays multicolor meta), I often payed +6 mana, only to produce 1-3 tokens (at max). Additionally, the formaty was completely different when meloku was around (and affinity was gone). Turn 5 kills were an exception, not the norm, blue had several good counters and spells (shackles, mana leak, rewind, last word, thirst), that helped it maintain card advantage and survive until the late game where the player would have +12 lands out, play a meloku, then end of turn return 3-5 lands and begin bashing for 8 next turn.
As for inkwell, I really would like to see you a)last long enough to stablize and cast that card, and b) not be completely overwhlemed by your opponent the turn you play it because you will be nearly or completely tapped out.
Oona is a good finisher (not the best though), but even so control (specifically blue, because 5 color preferes broodmates to her anyway), is severly lacking in any support cards for her.
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I saw someone saying that blue will never compare to what white was, where it had one good card (wrath) and WW. That is exactly what blue is right now, a card that everyone splashes for and a tribe thats good. Outside of that, bue has nothing going for it.
White got buffs in that situation, not nerfs!
The following cards that have seen play or could see more play post-rotation for blue and goes to show my point a bit that blue is not just about cryptic command and faeries. Shards block is a multi-color block, so you HAVE TO look at the mutli-color cards to judge how overall good a color is, or could be post-rotation. Sure there is an aweful lot of multi-colored cards in there, and certainly a strong artifact theme, and admittedly nothing to the utter insane and busted power level that something like cryptic command, but still there are plenty of good and playable (potentially or otherwise) cards available in shards block to give blue enough support to still be relevant in the context of the multi-color block that is shards block.
Shards of Alara playable Blue cards:
Courier's Capsule
Etherium Sculpter
Master of Etherium
Tezzeret the Seeker
Multicolored w/blue:
Agony Warp
Bant Charm
Cruel Ultimatum
Esper Charm
Hindering Light
Jhessian Infiltrator
Kederekt Creeper
Rafiq of the Many
Rhox War Monk
Sedraxis Specter
Sharuum the Hegemon
Stoic Angel
Swerve
Tidehollow Strix (got much better thanks to deathtouch and the rules change)
The following cards that have seen play or could see more play post-rotation for blue and goes to show my point a bit that blue is not just about cryptic command and faeries. Shards block is a multi-color block, so you HAVE TO look at the mutli-color cards to judge how overall good a color is, or could be post-rotation. Sure there is an aweful lot of multi-colored cards in there, and certainly a strong artifact theme, and admittedly nothing to the utter insane and busted power level that something like cryptic command, but still there are plenty of good and playable (potentially or otherwise) cards available in shards block to give blue enough support to still be relevant in the context of the multi-color block that is shards block.
Standard as a whole is more about creatures than it is about multicolored. Besides, there are plenty of strong monocolored spells. Just not in blue.
Standard as a whole is more about creatures than it is about multicolored. Besides, there are plenty of strong monocolored spells. Just not in blue.
There are about 25 creatures on the list I mentioned by the way. You just have to realize that blue is not the best creature color, it never has been and probably will never be. Blue is about using their creatures to do something tricky or to control things moreso than other colors are more likely to. In the current standard Faeries is an excellent example of that. Faeries look to control the game with their spells and creatures and then fly in over a number of turns to inevitably kill you.
I really dont want to have to make an equally long list of everything that is available for blue in lorwyn/shadowmoor blocks, as there are far more than just cryptic command and faeries to say the least.
Besides, when was the last time you saw a mono colored deck really tear up standard. Faeries used black, kithkin use black now as well, I havent seen mono-red specific decks around in a little while since alara reborn came out.
Tokens are black/white or white/green, green/red aggro seems rather popular, Mill.deck runs black in it as well usually, and not to mention green/black elves. Elf-ball might be an example of mono-color but I dont think Ive looked at a specific decklist for that recently.
Its all a matter of perspective. The current format is not about mono-colored decks. The current format is big on creatures, true, but then faeries are still around and still winning tournaments. Which is why I was focusing on post-rotation. Blue is still around a lot and still being played all over the place, its just no longer easily viable to play a mono-blue deck, just as its not as viable to be playing mono-color decks in general with the above mentioned decks because of the way the format was set up.
Now if blue gets shafted in Zendikar, then Ill be happy to eat my words and be concerned over the fate of blue, but for now, blue is still making its presence known plenty, and not something Im worried about in the current format.
There are about 25 creatures on the list I mentioned by the way. You just have to realize that blue is not the best creature color, it never has been and probably will never be. Blue is about using their creatures to do something tricky or to control things moreso than other colors are more likely to. In the current standard Faeries is an excellent example of that. Faeries look to control the game with their spells and creatures and then fly in over a number of turns to inevitably kill you.
Blue is the worst creature color, and will always be. That's how it should be, and probably part of the reason I enjoy playing blue. Blue should make up for this through card advantage and reactive answers.
I really dont want to have to make an equally long list of everything that is available for blue in lorwyn/shadowmoor blocks, as there are far more than just cryptic command and faeries to say the least.
I don't see any of it in top tier decks outside of the aforementioned faeries, with the exception of mulldrifter in Reveilark.
Besides, when was the last time you saw a mono colored deck really tear up standard. Faeries used black, kithkin use black now as well, I havent seen mono-red specific decks around in a little while since alara reborn came out.
Tokens are black/white or white/green, green/red aggro seems rather popular, Mill.deck runs black in it as well usually, and not to mention green/black elves. Elf-ball might be an example of mono-color but I dont think Ive looked at a specific decklist for that recently.
I don't want to play mono blue. There's no place for monocolored decks in the current standard, and I'm perfectly fine with that. What I want is to be able to play a control deck that features blue control elements prominently and isn't Faeries. That's apparently too much to ask for.
Blue is the worst creature color, and will always be. That's how it should be, and probably part of the reason I enjoy playing blue. Blue should make up for this through card advantage and reactive answers.
I don't see any of it in top tier decks outside of the aforementioned faeries, with the exception of mulldrifter in Reveilark.
I don't want to play mono blue. There's no place for monocolored decks in the current standard, and I'm perfectly fine with that. What I want is to be able to play a control deck that features blue control elements prominently and isn't Faeries. That's apparently too much to ask for.
Depends on which top tier decks you are looking at, different areas and different ptqs et all have different results, that said, here are some popular cards that do see tournament play other than CC and Faeries:
Broken Ambitions
Mulldrifter (as you mentioned)
Ponder
Jace Beleren
Sower of Temptation (which isnt just used in Faeries)
Negate
Vendilion Clique (not just played in faeries)
Sygg River Cutthroat
Plumeveil
Mirrorweave
Swans of Bryn Argoll
Oona Queen of the Fae
Shorecrasher Mimic
Snakeform
Glen Elendra Archmage
Sanity Grinding (Mill decks have won at our FNMs when playing against our top players who perform very well at ptqs that were playing the top decks, so dont discount the rouge mill deck when it has such potential.)
I tried to focus on the top end cards that have seen play in top tier decks, I hope Ive at least made the point that blue still has plenty going for it outside of just faeries and CC.
Depends on which top tier decks you are looking at, different areas and different ptqs et all have different results, that said, here are some popular cards that do see tournament play other than CC and Faeries:
Broken Ambitions
Mulldrifter (as you mentioned)
Ponder
Jace Beleren
Sower of Temptation (which isnt just used in Faeries)
Negate
Vendilion Clique (not just played in faeries)
Sygg River Cutthroat
Plumeveil
Mirrorweave
Swans of Bryn Argoll
Oona Queen of the Fae
Shorecrasher Mimic
Snakeform
Glen Elendra Archmage
Sanity Grinding (Mill decks have won at our FNMs when playing against our top players who perform very well at ptqs that were playing the top decks, so dont discount the rouge mill deck when it has such potential.)
I tried to focus on the top end cards that have seen play in top tier decks, I hope Ive at least made the point that blue still has plenty going for it outside of just faeries and CC.
Can I just note that every single one of those cards outside of, what 3 of them reprinted in M10 are rotating in 3 months? Just saying.
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2-Control changing effects
3-Text changing effects
4-Type changing effects
5-Color changing effects
6-Giving/Taking Abilities
7a-*/* setting effects
7b-All effects not described in other layer 6 effects
7c-Counters
7d-Static abilities that don't set P/T (Crusade effects)
7e-Switching P/T
Right, they don't get it in the core set. In my post two posts ago, I said that I trust the WotC won't allow the game to be unbalanced for too long. So, because control was too good previously, they are not giving it new more spectacular tools in the core set.
I'm not saying control is getting stronger, that would untrue, control is just as strong, it looses nothing, agro just gains. However, I am now cautious, with agro getting better, unless control (specificaly blue based control) gets something in Zendikar, I will join the outrages masses, untill then, I'm content with my Faeries.
Edit: I do agree on your card drawing point. That pisses me off to no end, would some good instant speed card draw be too much? I would kill for thirst for knowledge. Relying on Jace and Cryptic to be a consistent good CA engine is not fun. Jace dies to agro, and I often need to tap or bounce with cryptic against agro decks.
2-Control changing effects
3-Text changing effects
4-Type changing effects
5-Color changing effects
6-Giving/Taking Abilities
7a-*/* setting effects
7b-All effects not described in other layer 6 effects
7c-Counters
7d-Static abilities that don't set P/T (Crusade effects)
7e-Switching P/T
Llark would be more viable without Faeries.
UBW Sphinx Control as its often referred to these days would very likely be huge.
5cc would make a return. The rumours of Cascade Swans and Anathemancer killing 5cc are greatly exagerated. What killed 5cc was the fact that CascadeSwans opened the door for Faeries to re-enter the metagame numbers again.
The single most inhibiting factor for control in the current metagame is Faeries. But is not that they are overpowered, but merely that they make life for any other form of control extremely difficult. Blue in Lorwyn was just way too focussed on Faeries. All the other colours still offer alot outside of their 'core' tribes. Its this 'lack' of blue power outside of Faeries from Lorwyn that have so many of us feeling like Blue got the shaft, when in fact Blue and its raw synergy with its Faeries tribe is its own worst enemy in constructed formats that support the deck archtype. (True, Merfolk had a little run, but that was more a UW aggrofish deck unfortunately which doesn't help Blues cause)
With Lorwyn/Shadowmoor giving us Spellstutter Sprite, Negate and Broken Ambitions with Remove Soul in 10th edition, the premiere blue based deck (faeries) had a lot going for it, to the point that many wanted it banned. Sure, they didn't push the 2cmc in Alara. But aren't you glad about that? Imagin what would've happened with Faeries. Hell, imagin if faeries got their hands on instand speed, cheap card draw, general blue based control decks would've been left to rot in the gutter rather than being tier1.5 like they are currently. Like I said, Blue and its little petdeck, Faeries, is its own worst enemy. When Lorwyn rotates, expect the wrongs of the format to fix themselves, rather than go pear shaped as its the messup with Lorwyn's blue that has Blue based control in the situation its in, in the first place.
Thank you for agreeing with me on the card drawing aspect.
I don't know if it was just my fnm, but control for the past 4 years (except faeries, which, once again I hate to no end), has been on a pretty even level with aggro decks (and dragonstorm when it was around). While I hated not having counterspell, I found mana leak, remand, rewind, rune snag, and hinder to excellent compensations for the loss of the card. During Kam-Rav and Rav-Tsp, gruul, zoo, and gargadon red were always placing high in the tournaments at our cardshop, as were d-storm, draulnu, pickles (less often, but I did get 1,2, and 3 with it at least once (over the course of like 4 months mind you)). I felt wizards had crafted the perfect game where a player could make any deck they wanted and could have a good time playing the game (though the ~$200 mana base was ******** and something should have been done about it).
Today though, control just hasn't been seen at my meta that recently (I always play it, but it has been going through some turbulent times since Alara Reborn), and if there is it either a) is faeries, or b) doesn't do that well. I respect other people's opinions, and I can understand that control may have frustrated you in the past and you may feel that the meta is balanced now, but it really doesn't seem like it in my eyes. Blue, to me, really needs a two mana unconditional counter (like mana leak, remand , or rune snag) in order for it to have a good shot in the meta.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
My ideal counter
nu-Counterspell UU
as an aditional cost to play ~ pay 2 life
Counter target spell
yes, it's worse than counterspell, but it gets the job done, espicially since with Duress comming back and no more pains, control players need some ways to hurt themselves. The life loss might be fine as part of the resolution, like TS, but this is ok too.
Who wants Faeries to get a no nonsense 2cmc counter to support its spellstutters?
Who wants Faeries to get a instant, cheap card draw?
Defintely not your blue based control players who're fed up piloting Faeries which is a large portion of the field these days. So, what do you do, settle playing a deck that's tier 1 or get the cards you want with the severe drawback of your deck now not being viable at all thanks to Faeries getting the same boost pushing you completely out of the metagame.
How ironic. Blue obviously got bored of beating the format up, and in its insane drive to fine worthy competition its turned on itself:)
(sorry for effective double post, somehow managed to miss my previous post and thought it hadn't gone through)
Im sorry, but these arguments are just driving me absolutely nutty. Do you realize what blue will have to have to make it control viable?
Card Draw Replacement
A Good finisher
Solid late game counter
Solid 2 mana counter
Boomerang, Evacuation, Reminice, Tidings*. (Faerie Conclave)**(Countered by the lack of the other colors having them as well though making it easier on blue overall)
Against aggro decks or with some sort of a mono blue deck both boomerang and evacuation are painful losses. Reminice was sort of a niche card but saw some play at our local fnms. Technically tidings got replaced by Mind Spring it just effectively costs one more mana to get the effect.
All in all I would say the two cards that truely matter for going from 10th to M10 were boomerang and evacuation. I will conceed that those two cards are certainly a loss for blue, but really they appear to be the only real losses that blue had with this core set vs 10th edition.
So I guess what Im getting at, since people seemed okay with the state of the format previously when 10th was around, Blue is still about the same as it was.
Now admittedly with all the crazy aggro stuff running around this certainly does seem to imbalace blue to the rest of the set, however you cannot really just look at the set in a vaccume. Blue is still quite good in the current standard, lots of cards that are blue, or have blue in them are being played in standard right now, at least as many as there are things like G/R, R/B, etc Aggro decks running around (crazy cascade stuff et all). The fact of the matter is, Shards block was a multi-color block, so there isnt really a whole lot of mono-colored assistance for blue. However there are plenty of good gold cards that use blue in bant/grixis/esper shards, and other 2-color cards that have blue in them that are still quite good.
The loss of the man-lands in standard as well actually helps blue (sure they cannot use faerie conclave now) but they dont have to worry about being killed by uncounterable pesky lands like ghitu encampment and treetop village.
I think the format will be okay, and blue will still see plenty of play for now and into the future, just be aware that in a gold-format you have to expect that a mono-colored strategy isnt going to be the norm by any means, and this will become more than likely ever the more apparent when the rotation occurs in october depending upon what zendikar brings us.
Just a few thoughts based upon what Ive seen at our fnms in recent history.
I saw someone saying that blue will never compare to what white was, where it had one good card (wrath) and WW. That is exactly what blue is right now, a card that everyone splashes for and a tribe thats good. Outside of that, bue has nothing going for it.
White got buffs in that situation, not nerfs!
Anyway, I would just like to agree with jeffbcrandall. Blue is not losing most of it's core set tools, and is actually gaining Sleep, which will help against agro decks. Also, the absence of most man lands is very good. Mutavault is still available, but no more treetop village is an incredible boon. And simply because I feel obliged to say it in every post, blue may be dying, but we won't know untill Zendikar, untill then it's still healthy(ish).
Edit: yes, but that's just in the core set. As long as cards like Cryptic command and various other good members of the Fae, like Sower of Temptation, exist, you can still main blue.
I would hate to see that counterspell. Mainly because it's at most an UB card as opposed to mono-U. When will people realize that paying resources (life, creatures, lands and so on) to save mana is black's domain (and red when it comes down to generate fast mana)? cards that let you exchange life for speed are black. trying to make a blue one is just what blue's been doing for the past 13 years: getting other colors' strenghts and using it as if it were its own. and we certainly don't need that. A "fair" hard counterspell (counter it, no questions asked) DO exist, at a price tag of 1UU. It sucks, but until they decide it's fair again to price it at UU (you never know, ppl never expected to see Lightning Bolt back so), it's what we're going to get.
I agree that blue got the short end of the stick in m10, but hey, there are some pretty amazing cards. I for one already am a fan of the three wishes djinn, and I believe that we can't hold judgment until the full set is spoiled.
Don't you love when people make such claims and are wrong?
Fixed because mistbind is only good in faeries and forced you to play a tribal theme faeries deck if you want to use it as a finisher. A real blue finisher should be able to operate in a variety of control decks (such as keiga, teferi, etc), and not be limited to one particular deck (especially when that deck is really aggro-control, not control).
Edit:
I guess there is always Oona, but she really hasn't seen that much play, except briefly in quick n toast.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
With the exception of 10 green cards, the entire set is spoiled. I don't think those 10 green cards will change blue's situation.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of [High~Light Studios] for the awesome sig.
that should never be printed. using life as a resource is black's philosophy (and occasionally red's Goblin Artillery, Char) and should never EVER be an ability of a LAND for christ's sake! (painlands, shocklands)
http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20801.jpg
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
I don't mean to be derisive, but do not even begin to relate Oona to meloku. Her token producing ability is very inconsistent (espicially in todays multicolor meta), I often payed +6 mana, only to produce 1-3 tokens (at max). Additionally, the formaty was completely different when meloku was around (and affinity was gone). Turn 5 kills were an exception, not the norm, blue had several good counters and spells (shackles, mana leak, rewind, last word, thirst), that helped it maintain card advantage and survive until the late game where the player would have +12 lands out, play a meloku, then end of turn return 3-5 lands and begin bashing for 8 next turn.
As for inkwell, I really would like to see you a)last long enough to stablize and cast that card, and b) not be completely overwhlemed by your opponent the turn you play it because you will be nearly or completely tapped out.
Oona is a good finisher (not the best though), but even so control (specifically blue, because 5 color preferes broodmates to her anyway), is severly lacking in any support cards for her.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
The following cards that have seen play or could see more play post-rotation for blue and goes to show my point a bit that blue is not just about cryptic command and faeries. Shards block is a multi-color block, so you HAVE TO look at the mutli-color cards to judge how overall good a color is, or could be post-rotation. Sure there is an aweful lot of multi-colored cards in there, and certainly a strong artifact theme, and admittedly nothing to the utter insane and busted power level that something like cryptic command, but still there are plenty of good and playable (potentially or otherwise) cards available in shards block to give blue enough support to still be relevant in the context of the multi-color block that is shards block.
Shards of Alara playable Blue cards:
Courier's Capsule
Etherium Sculpter
Master of Etherium
Tezzeret the Seeker
Multicolored w/blue:
Agony Warp
Bant Charm
Cruel Ultimatum
Esper Charm
Hindering Light
Jhessian Infiltrator
Kederekt Creeper
Rafiq of the Many
Rhox War Monk
Sedraxis Specter
Sharuum the Hegemon
Stoic Angel
Swerve
Tidehollow Strix (got much better thanks to deathtouch and the rules change)
Conflux:
Ethersworn Adjudicator
Inkwell Leviathan
Master Transmuter
Parasitic Strix
Muti-colored cards w/blue:
Countersquall
Nicol Bolas Planeswalker
Sphinx Summoner
Vedalken Outlander
Zombie Outlander
Alara Reborn:
Ardent Plea
Fieldmist Borderpost
Meddling Mage
Wall of Denial
Deny Reality
Mind Funeral
Mistvein Borderpost
Soul Manipulation
Double Negative (good to keep cascade in check)
Lorescale Coatl
Winged Coatl (psudo removal)
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Finest Hour
Jenara Asura of War
Esper Stormblade
Grixis Grimblade
Slave of Bolas
Bant Sureblade
Crystalization (psudo removal)
Standard as a whole is more about creatures than it is about multicolored. Besides, there are plenty of strong monocolored spells. Just not in blue.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of [High~Light Studios] for the awesome sig.
There are about 25 creatures on the list I mentioned by the way. You just have to realize that blue is not the best creature color, it never has been and probably will never be. Blue is about using their creatures to do something tricky or to control things moreso than other colors are more likely to. In the current standard Faeries is an excellent example of that. Faeries look to control the game with their spells and creatures and then fly in over a number of turns to inevitably kill you.
I really dont want to have to make an equally long list of everything that is available for blue in lorwyn/shadowmoor blocks, as there are far more than just cryptic command and faeries to say the least.
Besides, when was the last time you saw a mono colored deck really tear up standard. Faeries used black, kithkin use black now as well, I havent seen mono-red specific decks around in a little while since alara reborn came out.
Tokens are black/white or white/green, green/red aggro seems rather popular, Mill.deck runs black in it as well usually, and not to mention green/black elves. Elf-ball might be an example of mono-color but I dont think Ive looked at a specific decklist for that recently.
Its all a matter of perspective. The current format is not about mono-colored decks. The current format is big on creatures, true, but then faeries are still around and still winning tournaments. Which is why I was focusing on post-rotation. Blue is still around a lot and still being played all over the place, its just no longer easily viable to play a mono-blue deck, just as its not as viable to be playing mono-color decks in general with the above mentioned decks because of the way the format was set up.
Now if blue gets shafted in Zendikar, then Ill be happy to eat my words and be concerned over the fate of blue, but for now, blue is still making its presence known plenty, and not something Im worried about in the current format.
Blue is the worst creature color, and will always be. That's how it should be, and probably part of the reason I enjoy playing blue. Blue should make up for this through card advantage and reactive answers.
I don't see any of it in top tier decks outside of the aforementioned faeries, with the exception of mulldrifter in Reveilark.
I don't want to play mono blue. There's no place for monocolored decks in the current standard, and I'm perfectly fine with that. What I want is to be able to play a control deck that features blue control elements prominently and isn't Faeries. That's apparently too much to ask for.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of [High~Light Studios] for the awesome sig.
Depends on which top tier decks you are looking at, different areas and different ptqs et all have different results, that said, here are some popular cards that do see tournament play other than CC and Faeries:
Broken Ambitions
Mulldrifter (as you mentioned)
Ponder
Jace Beleren
Sower of Temptation (which isnt just used in Faeries)
Negate
Vendilion Clique (not just played in faeries)
Sygg River Cutthroat
Plumeveil
Mirrorweave
Swans of Bryn Argoll
Oona Queen of the Fae
Shorecrasher Mimic
Snakeform
Glen Elendra Archmage
Sanity Grinding (Mill decks have won at our FNMs when playing against our top players who perform very well at ptqs that were playing the top decks, so dont discount the rouge mill deck when it has such potential.)
I tried to focus on the top end cards that have seen play in top tier decks, I hope Ive at least made the point that blue still has plenty going for it outside of just faeries and CC.
Can I just note that every single one of those cards outside of, what 3 of them reprinted in M10 are rotating in 3 months? Just saying.