As you move into formats where the critical turn decreases, delay becomes increasingly good. Also, as you generally move into those formats, the CC of most cards is generally leaning much futher into effeiciency, and remand loses even more of it's touch.
Things like
Player 1 (with 5 Goblin Tokens in play): "I vial in Goblin Warchief"
Player 2: "Echoing Truth on your Goblin Token"
Player 1: "Red Elemental Blast your Truth"
Player 2: "Crap... uh ... Remand?"
Player 1: "Red Elemental Blast your Truth"
Remnad does't often buy you even a turn when the spell you are up against are 1cc and 2cc.
And of course, delay is a hard counter against any spell that targets the stack, or has a particular timing restriction.
Sure, remand gets you a card, but delay *will* buy you turns. So depending on how much a turn is worth in the format you are playing in, delay gets better, and closer and closer to a hard counter anyway.
I like Delay better beacose Teferi+Delay = Spell will be never played while teferi in play
and remand is good agenst flashback spells and draw a card is nice thing in remand
so i sey delay is better
First, it retards your opponent while accelerating you at the same time. Delay just retards your opponent, and note that it does so for just a couple of turns. A Remanded spell in the first few turns will stay in the guy's hand because he'd be playing the other cards in his hand. If he insists on still playing the Remanded spell, then he won't play the other cards in his hand. Either way, he loses tempo.
A Delayed spell, however, will eventually come through. It's worse if it's a creature because it'll attack right away. Sure you have the option to counter it again, but then you just used two cards to handle one, and lost card advantage.
The only things that Delay has going for it are the Teferi trick and the fact that it's good in counter wars. The Teferi trick just basically means it's a hard counter. That's like saying that the two cards are a combo to emulate the effects of Cancel. That Delay is better than Remand in counter wars is a given, but that's situational (as was repeatedly said earlier).
Fact is, Delay is better than Remand as the game gets longer. With a lot of mana, your opponent can simply replay the spell you Remanded, while Delay stalls the spell for sure. Having said that, doesn't Cancel do the same thing? If the game lasted to a point where mana is less of an issue, Cancel will do a better job.
The entire point of having a 2-mana counter is that you get to play it earlier, when you don't have mana for Cancel. Remand simply performs better during that time.
Having said these things, I do not imply that Delay is unplayable. I actually intend to use it. My point simply is that Remand is better, which is what we're talking about.
Delay is better in some instances, Remand in others. Late game, when your opponent finally draws that Wrath of God he needed to kick your ass, delay is infinitesimally better. However, a remand on one of your opponents 23/1 Lightning Serpent is way better. However, it really isn't a question of which of them you should play with, cause you can play with em both. Double da fun!
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However, a remand on one of your opponents 23/1 Lightning Serpent is way better. However, it really isn't a question of which of them you should play with, cause you can play with em both. Double da fun!
I don't see how that example works. Delaying the Lightning Serpent makes it useless after the 3 turns are over, as its will be a 0/1. Remanding a 23/1 Lightning Serpent will only get you hit by a 24/1 Lightning Serpent next turn.
Delay is better in some instances, Remand in others. Late game, when your opponent finally draws that Wrath of God he needed to kick your ass, delay is infinitesimally better. However, a remand on one of your opponents 23/1 Lightning Serpent is way better. However, it really isn't a question of which of them you should play with, cause you can play with em both. Double da fun!
Infinitesimally means incredibly small (arbitrarily close to 0). I don't see how that follows.
I played Owling Mine all last year so I am totally biased towards Remand. Anyone who has ever cast Remand on a Yosei, drawing into another Remand, then Remanding a Greater Good, and drawing into Exhaustion would automatically fall in love with Remand. It's like cracking a foil Wrath in a booster pack....it's like having sex with your friend's hot mom.
Remand is hands-down the best Counterspell since...... well FOW. It is a psuedo- Time Walk at times, in the right deck. It's played in all formats, where I don't think Delay will be. It allows a player to mise into something retarded as well as frustrating opponents to no end. I ask this players who have played both..... How many times has either of these cards won you the game? Delay will not win games..... Remand will.
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I played Owling Mine all last year so I am totally biased towards Remand. Anyone who has ever cast Remand on a Yosei, drawing into another Remand, then Remanding a Greater Good, and drawing into Exhaustion would automatically fall in love with Remand. It's like cracking a foil Wrath in a booster pack....it's like having sex with your friend's hot mom.
Remand is hands-down the best Counterspell since...... well FOW. It is a psuedo- Time Walk at times, in the right deck. It's played in all formats, where I don't think Delay will be. It allows a player to mise into something retarded as well as frustrating opponents to no end. I ask this players who have played both..... How many times has either of these cards won you the game? Delay will not win games..... Remand will.
I can't really say Remand ever won me a game by itself, unless I was winning the next turn, which Delay will also do just fine.
I played Owling Mine all last year so I am totally biased towards Remand. Anyone who has ever cast Remand on a Yosei, drawing into another Remand, then Remanding a Greater Good, and drawing into Exhaustion would automatically fall in love with Remand. It's like cracking a foil Wrath in a booster pack....it's like having sex with your friend's hot mom.
Remand is hands-down the best Counterspell since...... well FOW. It is a psuedo- Time Walk at times, in the right deck. It's played in all formats, where I don't think Delay will be. It allows a player to mise into something retarded as well as frustrating opponents to no end. I ask this players who have played both..... How many times has either of these cards won you the game? Delay will not win games..... Remand will.
But the fact remains, if you consider Remand timewalks then Mana Leak should be considered that as well.
I think this thread should blow up and realize that there's 4 (not 2) 2mana playable counters in standard today with Logic Knot almost getting there.
Each of which could be considered pseudo "time walks." Each of which would net you amount of tempo for the difference in the price of the spell to the price of the counterspell (2).
This thread is as silly as a Kirk vs Picard thread in the past star trek forums.
Remand cantrips
I've never played Limited with both Remand and Delay... And I don't think many people will be playing a sealed deck tournament or even a booster draft with both RAV and TS..
Nothing's impossible however.
Just last night I had a draft deck that consited of Remand and Delay... I misplayed the Delay, so Remand worked out better for me, but I think the Delay would have ended up being better if I had played it right... you don't use Delay early game, you use it late game, when they play their Game Swinging Card, boom... Delay RUINS it.
Anyway, the draft we played was a RGD/TPF Hybrid, with one person starting with RPD and the person next to them starting with TGF... it was interesting indeed. Quite a bit of fun, too. It shook up the format just enough to make it feel new, but familiar.
As you move into formats where the critical turn decreases, delay becomes increasingly good. Also, as you generally move into those formats, the CC of most cards is generally leaning much futher into effeiciency, and remand loses even more of it's touch.
Things like
Player 1 (with 5 Goblin Tokens in play): "I vial in Goblin Warchief"
Player 2: "Echoing Truth on your Goblin Token"
Player 1: "Red Elemental Blast your Truth"
Player 2: "Crap... uh ... Remand?"
Player 1: "Red Elemental Blast your Truth"
Remnad does't often buy you even a turn when the spell you are up against are 1cc and 2cc.
And of course, delay is a hard counter against any spell that targets the stack, or has a particular timing restriction.
Sure, remand gets you a card, but delay *will* buy you turns. So depending on how much a turn is worth in the format you are playing in, delay gets better, and closer and closer to a hard counter anyway.
Considering how frequently I Truth away lots of Goblin tokens, you just sold me, my friend.
Delay in my U/R aggro-control deck is much better than Remand.
Delay kinda supplements when remand and mana leak is insufficient, of which this case is almost impossible. Just like what everyone has said, delay is only good in 2 cases.
1) Teferi is in play
2) You do not have a choice(Remand is not is TSP Block )
Mana Leak however does stop a card in your opponent's hand from happening which remand does not.
Mana Leak is a 1 for 1.
Remand is a 1 for 0 but with a cantrip effect.
Therefore since neither gives you the same amound of card advantage of a time walk they both should be considered timewalks.
Don't be obtuse. Time walk
" 1U (2), Sorcery Take an extra turn after this one."
An extra turn implies a few things:
You draw a card at the beginning of your turn
You untap your lands
Have an additional phase to play spells (with untapped land)
Can play an additional land
Can attack again
Remand obviously does not allow you to play an extra land or attack again. However, the fact that a deck packing remand would not have anything to attack with on turn 2 (usually) makes it meaningless. It isn't a true 'time walk', but it is close because your opponent has the same hand (as he does when you cast time walk) and you've drawn an extra card. That's the whole point.
So no, mana leak is just a soft-counter and not a 'time walk' like Remand.
And since Delay actually buys you an actual turn, I think it has a bit stronger case for being a "time walk" than Remand does.
And Delay has even less ground to be considered one. No extra card and sets the opponent up for a future spell to come into play. Delay sounds phenomenally good against an opponent who is top-decking late-game, but pretty tame against an opponent with a hand (who can play more spells after one gets Delayed). A remand (in that situation) would give you a chance to draw into another counter (this is why people say 'Remand has won me games') whereas Delay does not 'buy' anything of the sort. An early Remand can give you a chance to draw into a land that may make a hand work, which Delay also does not do.
Delay kinda supplements when remand and mana leak is insufficient, of which this case is almost impossible. Just like what everyone has said, delay is only good in 2 cases.
1) Teferi is in play
2) You do not have a choice(Remand is not is TSP Block )
Precisely.
What makes Delay worse is that it doesn't deny your opponents anything except time, and in some contexts not even that.
Consider: You Delay a spell. Three turns down the line it pushes through, and your opponents doesn't need to spend any mana for it. You might need to counter that spell again, and you probably won't have the mana or cards to counter the other threat your opponent will drop that turn.
Consider: You Remand a spell. Three turns down the line, it's still sitting in your opponent's hand because his tempo forces him to cast other things. You might say that you gained nothing because your opponent didn't lose a card, but hey, you drew a card with Remand.
Remand simply does more.
In the late game, Delay will obviously be better in most scenarios--but as I said, in the late game you should have the mustered the resources to play a better reaction, such as Cancel.
Another thing I hate about Delay is that it works horribly against creatures since they come in with haste--and casting Delay on Aeon Chronicler will make your opponent kiss you.
I tried Delay but didn't like it. It is a nice combo with Teferi, but you don't always have Teferi in hand, and sometimes Delay would force you to time a Teferi at a very awkward moment where you'd rather keep mana open for other stuff. And if you don't have Teferi, you have to deal with the Delayed spell a couple turns later again, while you are trying to win a war of attrition, not a war of tempo. So I'm not a big fan of Delay. I liked the "certainty" and reliability of Cancel and Mana Leak better (though Delay is perhaps better than Mana Leak if you expect a control-heavy metagame).
Note he didn't ever mention possibly going down from 4 remands and the deck is Dralnu. Delay gets compared to Mana Leak, not Remand. Just an interesting observation.
Player 1 (with 5 Goblin Tokens in play): "I vial in Goblin Warchief"
Player 2: "Echoing Truth on your Goblin Token"
Player 1: "Red Elemental Blast your Truth"
Player 2: "Crap... uh ... Remand?"
Player 1: "Red Elemental Blast your Truth"
Player 2: "Cast FoW i just drew from my remand on your Blast"
Fixed.
Another thing I hate about Delay is that it works horribly against creatures since they come in with haste--and casting Delay on Aeon Chronicler will make your opponent kiss you.
But you can cast it on your own ACs if you feel like it, like when their suspension would have ended..
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Delay is pretty much only good in combo. It's the new Arcane Denial in some ways; everyone who can't actually count cards thinks it's amazing. In control, it's guaranteed card disadvantage without Teferi, and I don't think it's intelligent to run cards that are only good if another five-cc creature resolves and sticks.
Even in combo, Remand actually replaces itself while buying time, which is pretty much all you want. Look at Legacy- Counterspell is strictly better than Delay, but Solidarity, the premiere combo-control deck, runs neither, running Remand because it digs further, can protect your own spells from counters, and also comboes neatly with Brain Freeze.
In what format? Where is it better than Remand, Rune Snag or Mana Leak in such decks? (Or Evasive Action, or Counterspell)
TSP block constructed...
On a more seriues node. I dont quite understand why ppl are discussing this. Yes if you look away from the fact that you draw an extra card (HUGE) delay MIGHT be better in the late game and vs certain spells. But draning whelk is better then both in that case (its late game. You are playing blue control. Youve drawn pretty many cards. If you are are playing Mystical teachings or alot of draning whelks you should nearly always end up with one).
On the other hand, there is a reason ppl call remand timewalk in the early game...
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It's the new Arcane Denial in some ways; everyone who can't actually count cards thinks it's amazing. In control, it's guaranteed card disadvantage without Teferi, and I don't think it's intelligent to run cards that are only good if another five-cc creature resolves and sticks.
Nice insight! I never thought of it that way, but now that you mention it, Delay really does remind me of the Arcane Denial hype. lol
And yeah, you could Delay your own Chronicler and kiss yourself. Yet another five-mana creature that combos well with Delay! \o/
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Things like
Player 1 (with 5 Goblin Tokens in play): "I vial in Goblin Warchief"
Player 2: "Echoing Truth on your Goblin Token"
Player 1: "Red Elemental Blast your Truth"
Player 2: "Crap... uh ... Remand?"
Player 1: "Red Elemental Blast your Truth"
Remnad does't often buy you even a turn when the spell you are up against are 1cc and 2cc.
And of course, delay is a hard counter against any spell that targets the stack, or has a particular timing restriction.
Sure, remand gets you a card, but delay *will* buy you turns. So depending on how much a turn is worth in the format you are playing in, delay gets better, and closer and closer to a hard counter anyway.
and remand is good agenst flashback spells and draw a card is nice thing in remand
so i sey delay is better
Control
Magnivore
First, it retards your opponent while accelerating you at the same time. Delay just retards your opponent, and note that it does so for just a couple of turns. A Remanded spell in the first few turns will stay in the guy's hand because he'd be playing the other cards in his hand. If he insists on still playing the Remanded spell, then he won't play the other cards in his hand. Either way, he loses tempo.
A Delayed spell, however, will eventually come through. It's worse if it's a creature because it'll attack right away. Sure you have the option to counter it again, but then you just used two cards to handle one, and lost card advantage.
The only things that Delay has going for it are the Teferi trick and the fact that it's good in counter wars. The Teferi trick just basically means it's a hard counter. That's like saying that the two cards are a combo to emulate the effects of Cancel. That Delay is better than Remand in counter wars is a given, but that's situational (as was repeatedly said earlier).
Fact is, Delay is better than Remand as the game gets longer. With a lot of mana, your opponent can simply replay the spell you Remanded, while Delay stalls the spell for sure. Having said that, doesn't Cancel do the same thing? If the game lasted to a point where mana is less of an issue, Cancel will do a better job.
The entire point of having a 2-mana counter is that you get to play it earlier, when you don't have mana for Cancel. Remand simply performs better during that time.
Having said these things, I do not imply that Delay is unplayable. I actually intend to use it. My point simply is that Remand is better, which is what we're talking about.
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I don't see how that example works. Delaying the Lightning Serpent makes it useless after the 3 turns are over, as its will be a 0/1. Remanding a 23/1 Lightning Serpent will only get you hit by a 24/1 Lightning Serpent next turn.
Infinitesimally means incredibly small (arbitrarily close to 0). I don't see how that follows.
-E
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Remand is hands-down the best Counterspell since...... well FOW. It is a psuedo- Time Walk at times, in the right deck. It's played in all formats, where I don't think Delay will be. It allows a player to mise into something retarded as well as frustrating opponents to no end. I ask this players who have played both..... How many times has either of these cards won you the game? Delay will not win games..... Remand will.
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I can't really say Remand ever won me a game by itself, unless I was winning the next turn, which Delay will also do just fine.
-E
But the fact remains, if you consider Remand timewalks then Mana Leak should be considered that as well.
I think this thread should blow up and realize that there's 4 (not 2) 2mana playable counters in standard today with Logic Knot almost getting there.
Mana Leak
Rune Snag
Remand
Delay
Each of which could be considered pseudo "time walks." Each of which would net you amount of tempo for the difference in the price of the spell to the price of the counterspell (2).
This thread is as silly as a Kirk vs Picard thread in the past star trek forums.
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Just last night I had a draft deck that consited of Remand and Delay... I misplayed the Delay, so Remand worked out better for me, but I think the Delay would have ended up being better if I had played it right... you don't use Delay early game, you use it late game, when they play their Game Swinging Card, boom... Delay RUINS it.
Anyway, the draft we played was a RGD/TPF Hybrid, with one person starting with RPD and the person next to them starting with TGF... it was interesting indeed. Quite a bit of fun, too. It shook up the format just enough to make it feel new, but familiar.
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Considering how frequently I Truth away lots of Goblin tokens, you just sold me, my friend.
Delay in my U/R aggro-control deck is much better than Remand.
It gets called a 'timewalk' because it draws you an extra card (which you would do if you were actually taking an extra turn).
Mana Leak does not draw you a card, and thus will never be considered a 'timewalk'.
Mana Leak is a 1 for 1.
Remand is a 1 for 0 but with a cantrip effect.
Therefore since neither gives you the same amound of card advantage of a time walk they both should be considered timewalks.
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-E
1) Teferi is in play
2) You do not have a choice(Remand is not is TSP Block )
Standard
WBR Mardu Vehicles RBW
Modern
WUBRG Amulet Titan GRBUW
" 1U (2), Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one."
An extra turn implies a few things:
You draw a card at the beginning of your turn
You untap your lands
Have an additional phase to play spells (with untapped land)
Can play an additional land
Can attack again
Remand obviously does not allow you to play an extra land or attack again. However, the fact that a deck packing remand would not have anything to attack with on turn 2 (usually) makes it meaningless. It isn't a true 'time walk', but it is close because your opponent has the same hand (as he does when you cast time walk) and you've drawn an extra card. That's the whole point.
So no, mana leak is just a soft-counter and not a 'time walk' like Remand.
And Delay has even less ground to be considered one. No extra card and sets the opponent up for a future spell to come into play. Delay sounds phenomenally good against an opponent who is top-decking late-game, but pretty tame against an opponent with a hand (who can play more spells after one gets Delayed). A remand (in that situation) would give you a chance to draw into another counter (this is why people say 'Remand has won me games') whereas Delay does not 'buy' anything of the sort. An early Remand can give you a chance to draw into a land that may make a hand work, which Delay also does not do.
Precisely.
What makes Delay worse is that it doesn't deny your opponents anything except time, and in some contexts not even that.
Consider: You Delay a spell. Three turns down the line it pushes through, and your opponents doesn't need to spend any mana for it. You might need to counter that spell again, and you probably won't have the mana or cards to counter the other threat your opponent will drop that turn.
Consider: You Remand a spell. Three turns down the line, it's still sitting in your opponent's hand because his tempo forces him to cast other things. You might say that you gained nothing because your opponent didn't lose a card, but hey, you drew a card with Remand.
Remand simply does more.
In the late game, Delay will obviously be better in most scenarios--but as I said, in the late game you should have the mustered the resources to play a better reaction, such as Cancel.
Another thing I hate about Delay is that it works horribly against creatures since they come in with haste--and casting Delay on Aeon Chronicler will make your opponent kiss you.
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
Note he didn't ever mention possibly going down from 4 remands and the deck is Dralnu. Delay gets compared to Mana Leak, not Remand. Just an interesting observation.
Player 2: "Echoing Truth on your Goblin Token"
Player 1: "Red Elemental Blast your Truth"
Player 2: "Crap... uh ... Remand?"
Player 1: "Red Elemental Blast your Truth"
Player 2: "Cast FoW i just drew from my remand on your Blast"
Fixed.
But you can cast it on your own ACs if you feel like it, like when their suspension would have ended..
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Even in combo, Remand actually replaces itself while buying time, which is pretty much all you want. Look at Legacy- Counterspell is strictly better than Delay, but Solidarity, the premiere combo-control deck, runs neither, running Remand because it digs further, can protect your own spells from counters, and also comboes neatly with Brain Freeze.
In what format? Where is it better than Remand, Rune Snag or Mana Leak in such decks? (Or Evasive Action, or Counterspell)
TSP block constructed...
On a more seriues node. I dont quite understand why ppl are discussing this. Yes if you look away from the fact that you draw an extra card (HUGE) delay MIGHT be better in the late game and vs certain spells. But draning whelk is better then both in that case (its late game. You are playing blue control. Youve drawn pretty many cards. If you are are playing Mystical teachings or alot of draning whelks you should nearly always end up with one).
On the other hand, there is a reason ppl call remand timewalk in the early game...
Nice insight! I never thought of it that way, but now that you mention it, Delay really does remind me of the Arcane Denial hype. lol
And yeah, you could Delay your own Chronicler and kiss yourself. Yet another five-mana creature that combos well with Delay! \o/
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