I understand hes a vamp and theres a good amount of vamp tribal already so his p/t could be too high but i wish he had deathtouch...at least make ppl have to think before they just block him. Wouldve improved the flavor too since hes a vamp and it would not have made his ability stronger, just more likely to get through which, as something youre usually only gonna have 2 of in a deck, you want it to be able to do pretty reliably. Especially since it cost 5.
This is even starting to look good with the Emmera they spoiled, that one is even worse....
Realy wizards should pay more attention to what they design, cause in all honousty they realy missed alot in this set.....
Yeah there are still some pretty great cards, and thus its probably still gonne sell quite good, but just a shame the champions mostly are not to good....
Specialy cause I personaly always loved champions and guild leaders and such....
10 legends was the most exciting thing about this set to me since I primarily play edh.
It's such a huge letdown though; literally none of the 10 new generals make me want to build decks for them because they're either weak or outclassed by similar generals. Like, you would never want to play this Emmara card over Trostani or Rhys, and I even think the less common GW generals outclass it as well. Mirko Vosk does nothing in edh and is worthless compared to the other UB mill generals.
DGM does have some cards that I'll really like playing with, but these legends are horrible and such a letdown.
You don't think taking away their most powerful cards is helpful? If they can't interact with the graveyard then they're losing potential ways to win.
You're just as likely to mill their dead cards and get them to the card they need.
Random mill just doesn't affect the game. The cards are face down in their deck in a random order, putting cards from the top of their deck to their graveyard isn't an advantage unless you kill them with it or interact with the graveyard.
I think Jester's Cap-effects are more like what you're talking about.
10 legends was the most exciting thing about this set to me since I primarily play edh.
It's such a huge letdown though; literally none of the 10 new generals make me want to build decks for them because they're either weak or outclassed by similar generals. Like, you would never want to play this Emmara card over Trostani or Rhys, and I even think the less common GW generals outclass it as well. Mirko Vosk does nothing in edh and is worthless compared to the other UB mill generals.
DGM does have some cards that I'll really like playing with, but these legends are horrible and such a letdown.
What you say is fair and I understand where you're coming from, but I do think Lavinia, Varolz and Ruric Thar and maybe Melek can be built around in Commander.
But yeah, Emmara is the poor (poor, poor, poor) man's Rhys or Trostani.
As far as taking away their potential cards, it could potentially be useful but there is an equal chance that it could just help them. You have to remember though, that you could just as easily be allowing them to draw their important cards more quickly by milling away the less useful ones.
The argument that milling doesn't matter unless you completely mill their library is technically true but kind of irrelevant. You could say the exact same thing for damage. Milling at least has the added benefit of being able to use your opponent's graveyard for your advantage with cards like Beacon of Unrest or boosting cards like Jace's Phantasm. It can also throw off cards your opponents use to set up the top of his or her library like Congregation at Dawn or Liliana Vess
What you say is fair and I understand where you're coming from, but I do think Lavinia, Varolz and Ruric Thar and maybe Melek can be built around in Commander.
But yeah, Emmara is the poor (poor, poor, poor) man's Rhys or Trostani.
You're right, I think Ruric Thar is great too. It's a disappointment though that so many of the legends are terrible or obsolete versions of similar cards. I think you identified the 4 that are potentially playable.
The argument that milling doesn't matter unless you completely mill their library is technically true but kind of irrelevant. You could say the exact same thing for damage.
I would say the exact same thing about damage
You're absolutely right though, you can take advantage of milling by playing cards that interact with the opponent's graveyard in some way.
You don't think taking away their most powerful cards is helpful? If they can't interact with the graveyard then they're losing potential ways to win.
Mill is just as likely to hit cards they do want as cards they do. It literally changes nothing about their next draw. At the same time, you're powering up cards like Runechanter's Pike and handing them flashback cards. Mill is negative card advantage for the person milling in most cases, because you aren't impacting the board state.
Mill can be fun. Mill can be powerful. But let's not pretend that milling takes away their most powerful cards.
You're just as likely to mill their dead cards and get them to the card they need.
Random mill just doesn't affect the game. The cards are face down in their deck in a random order, putting cards from the top of their deck to their graveyard isn't an advantage unless you kill them with it or interact with the graveyard.
I think Jester's Cap-effects are more like what you're talking about.
Saying that Random mill doesn't affect games is inherently wrong. As an action that's being taken, you're mathematically adjusting probabilities of your opponent drawing/casting specific cards.
If by saying that the cards are face-down and randomized you mean to say that you feel the statistics should be ignored because you can't be sure of what the opponent's outs are or how many are in the deck, and the variables exist on such a wide scale that there isn't much reasoning behind "random mill", then I would conditionally agree with you (conditionally being based on the number of lands in your opponent's decks and how well they can remove creatures, etc.).
But simply saying that mill has "no effect" on a game is ludicrous. The effects are definitely nonzero.
Also, Dimir has plenty of spoiled cards that interact with graveyards.
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Saying that Random mill doesn't affect games is inherently wrong. As an action that's being taken, you're mathematically adjusting probabilities of your opponent drawing/casting specific cards.
If by saying that the cards are face-down and randomized you mean to say that you feel the statistics should be ignored because you can't be sure of what the opponent's outs are or how many are in the deck, and the variables exist on such a wide scale that there isn't much reasoning behind "random mill", then I would conditionally agree with you (conditionally being based on the number of lands in your opponent's decks and how well they can remove creatures, etc.).
But simply saying that mill has "no effect" on a game is ludicrous. The effects are definitely nonzero.
Also, Dimir has plenty of spoiled cards that interact with graveyards.
I didn't just say it has "no effect.". I said it has no advantage unless you win the game or interact with the graveyard. Read an entire post before responding to it.
Random milling an opponent does not change their chance of drawing a specific card. I'm pretty confident about that and would stand by it unless someone can explain otherwise.
Saying that Random mill doesn't affect games is inherently wrong. As an action that's being taken, you're mathematically adjusting probabilities of your opponent drawing/casting specific cards.
If by saying that the cards are face-down and randomized you mean to say that you feel the statistics should be ignored because you can't be sure of what the opponent's outs are or how many are in the deck, and the variables exist on such a wide scale that there isn't much reasoning behind "random mill", then I would conditionally agree with you (conditionally being based on the number of lands in your opponent's decks and how well they can remove creatures, etc.).
But simply saying that mill has "no effect" on a game is ludicrous. The effects are definitely nonzero.
Also, Dimir has plenty of spoiled cards that interact with graveyards.
Imagine if mill put cards on the bottom of the library, unseen, instead of the graveyard.
Imagine that mill for 40 won you a game, even if the cards were returned to the bottom of the library.
He would never see any of them.
Would that change anything?
No.
Mill is pretty exactly like seeing the bottom cards of your library: Cards you will not draw.
If good cards are at the bottom of the library, you will not draw them.
Because the deck is randomly shuffled, milling cards from the top of your library = milling cards from the bottom of your library = playing with the bottom cards of your library revealed in a "40-mill-life" game.
This is even starting to look good with the Emmera they spoiled, that one is even worse....
If she's real then I seriously have to apologize to Mirko. Emmara makes him look almost OP by comparison. For her cost at least give those tokens some indestructibility please. Well I guess I pay one mana more without green involved and cast Avacyn. only fair I guess, mythic has to trump rare after all, thats how wotc rolls.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I didn't just say it has "no effect.". I said it has no advantage unless you win the game or interact with the graveyard. Read an entire post before responding to it.
Random milling an opponent does not change their chance of drawing a specific card. I'm pretty confident about that and would stand by it unless someone can explain otherwise.
It does change the chance of (for better or worse) drawing a specific card. If X card is 4/43 (I assuming the opponent drew 6 cards since is a 5 drop :-/) of the library and you remove 1 of card X by milling 6 then the chances go down to 3/37. However how much it will change and which cards' chances it will change is up to random chance.
It does change the chance of (for better or worse) drawing a specific card. If X card is 4/43 (I assuming the opponent drew 6 cards since is a 5 drop :-/) of the library and you remove 1 of card X by milling 6 then the chances go down to 3/37. However how much it will change and which cards' chances it will change is up to random chance.
I don't think so. Those cards were already randomized in their deck.
Look at ADW's explanation, I think he put it really well.
How about "You may discard your hand, pay 5 life, rip this card, remove 3 digits from any number of target fingers you control, and concede at the end of the next end step rather than pay It Will Go Through!!'s mana cost.
You're just as likely to mill their dead cards and get them to the card they need.
Random mill just doesn't affect the game. The cards are face down in their deck in a random order, putting cards from the top of their deck to their graveyard isn't an advantage unless you kill them with it or interact with the graveyard.
I think Jester's Cap-effects are more like what you're talking about.
I agree with what you're saying, they could be narrowing their deck to get to certain cards. However, that's less and less multiples of the cards they get per game. Lets say you mill 20 cards and you knock off their two or three copies of Obzedat, and that was one of their primary win conditions, now suddenly they have less ways to win. Or, you mill a great deal of removal from their deck, now they have less ways to deal with your creatures. Sure, you're narrowing their deck down to less cards, but every card is fit into a deck for a reason. Those sixty cards aren't just a bunch of nothing and then a few you actually need. All of them are important, and when you start taking them away, you're limiting their chances of defending themselves, unless their deck wants you to put cards in the graveyard. The random order doesn't help or harm them, it's only random.
I don't think so. Those cards were already randomized in their deck.
Look at ADW's explanation, I think he put it really well.
Nope, initially, in a completely randomized deck, every card has a chance of 1/60 to be drawn. But as cards gets drawn or milled, the probability of drawing X card is now conditional because of the card that has already been milled/drawn are no longer in the deck.
Not to mention that milling is nothing like pulling out face down cards from the bottom of the deck. Putting cards into the graveyard gives a lot of information to both players and affect the way will go significantly. The milling effect may be random, the the decisions you make afterwards are conditional to the cards that were milled.
Nope, initially, in a completely randomized deck, every card has a chance of 1/60 to be drawn. But as cards gets drawn or milled, the probability of drawing X card is now conditional because of the card that has already been milled/drawn are no longer in the deck.
EXACTLY as if the cards were on the bottom of your library instead of at the top in a game where you don't draw more than 20 cards total.
You can't draw something that isn't on the top in a regular game.
Mill lets you KNOW that you won't draw a card -- just like playing with the bottom cards of your library revealed lets you know that those cards won't be drawn.
It does not change the game or probabilities -- it only changes your knowledge of the probabilites.
Every card among the bottom 40 cards in a game where you don't draw more than 20 cards could just as well have been exiled or milled out from the bottom of your library, without affecting the actual probabilites of drawing them; You would not have drawn them.
Now. Because you don't know where the cards in your library are, the effect of milling the top of your library instead of the bottom, in decks that don't manipulate their own libraries, has no bearing on the probabilites -- it just lets you know the probabilities.
I agree with what you're saying, they could be narrowing their deck to get to certain cards. However, that's less and less multiples of the cards they get per game. Lets say you mill 20 cards and you knock off their two or three copies of Obzedat, and that was one of their primary win conditions, now suddenly they have less ways to win. Or, you mill a great deal of removal from their deck, now they have less ways to deal with your creatures. Sure, you're narrowing their deck down to less cards, but every card is fit into a deck for a reason. Those sixty cards aren't just a bunch of nothing and then a few you actually need. All of them are important, and when you start taking them away, you're limiting their chances of defending themselves, unless their deck wants you to put cards in the graveyard. The random order doesn't help or harm them, it's only random.
No, you're right. Sometimes relevant things are milled. And sometimes lands are milled. And sometimes flashback cards are milled. Or scavenge cards. Or instant and sorcery cards that can be Snapcaster Maged or Archaeomancered or that matter for Runechanter's Pike.
So, actually, it's much worse to mill than you are anticipating. Because those sixty cards "aren't just a bunch of nothing". They're cards that are going to come back to bite you. In the meantime, the cards you are spending on mill are, in most every case, not impacting the board state in any meaningful way while you "remove" threats that weren't even threats at all.
Please, mill me. Mill my important cards. Mill my lands. Mill it all. Because I will still deal 20 damage before you can mill 45 cards most every time. And I play slow control decks.
It does not change the game or probabilities -- it only changes your knowledge of the probabilites.
How does this even make sense? Probability is the estimation of how likely an event is going to happen. If a card has been milled, the probability of drawing that card is now 0%, thus the probability has changed.
Every card among the bottom 40 cards in a game where you don't draw more than 20 cards could just as well have been exiled or milled out from the bottom of your library, without affecting the actual probabilites of drawing them; You would not have drawn them.
It is true that in the given situation, the physical bottom 40 cards would not have been drawn and that they might as well not have been there. However, the important part of this is not the physical cards but the information that players have at their disposal during the game.
In a game, any card in your deck has the same likelihood to be on the top, middle or bottom of the deck. The act of milling or exiling reveals the cards and tells the player that the exiled/milled card are, with certainty, not the card they are going to draw next. This information is real and has real impact upon decisions made in games.
For example, if a player see all 4 supreme verdict in his opponent's graveyard, he knows that he can safely play without playing around supreme verdict
Now. Because you don't know where the cards in your library are, the effect of milling the top of your library instead of the bottom, in decks that don't manipulate their own libraries, has no bearing on the probabilites -- it just lets you know the probabilities.
It is true that milling from the top, the middle, or the bottom of the deck has no incidence on the probabilities as every physical card in the deck can be considered, simultaneously, as a land, a creatures, a sorcery and any other card in the deck. However, as I stated before, it is not the physical card that was milled out that is important, it is the knowledge that the card can no longer be drawn.
Terrible. Ripped up the one that I pulled from my packs because wizards should feel bad for printing garbage like that. Design wise, competitively, the card fails on so many levels, really shows the lack of inspiration of this standard team.
I saw this guy win three matches on his own by swinging twice in all games
He is bananas in limited that was clear from the start but people were starting to warm up to him at the prerelease after countless group jokes on how bad Dimir was
It's like comparing the following two creatures; 2RR
Creature
3/3
2RR
Creature
Whenever ~ would deal damage to a player, instead roll a 5 sided dice and deal that much damage instead.
3/3
On average they are the same creature; but the second creature is more random and unpredictable. If you and your opponent treated the second creature as if it was the first creature and played a thousand games, you would win just as many games as if it was in actuality the first creature. Ofcourse in reality the fact that you know it's going to be random may change how you play; whether the opp decides to use a kill spell when he's on 5 life and has no blockers for example.
Please don't give WoTC any more ideas for red "random" junk cards.
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10 legends was the most exciting thing about this set to me since I primarily play edh.
It's such a huge letdown though; literally none of the 10 new generals make me want to build decks for them because they're either weak or outclassed by similar generals. Like, you would never want to play this Emmara card over Trostani or Rhys, and I even think the less common GW generals outclass it as well. Mirko Vosk does nothing in edh and is worthless compared to the other UB mill generals.
DGM does have some cards that I'll really like playing with, but these legends are horrible and such a letdown.
A genius design sure to please any and all citizens of Magical Christmas Land.
You don't think taking away their most powerful cards is helpful? If they can't interact with the graveyard then they're losing potential ways to win.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
You're just as likely to mill their dead cards and get them to the card they need.
Random mill just doesn't affect the game. The cards are face down in their deck in a random order, putting cards from the top of their deck to their graveyard isn't an advantage unless you kill them with it or interact with the graveyard.
I think Jester's Cap-effects are more like what you're talking about.
But yeah, Emmara is the poor (poor, poor, poor) man's Rhys or Trostani.
The argument that milling doesn't matter unless you completely mill their library is technically true but kind of irrelevant. You could say the exact same thing for damage. Milling at least has the added benefit of being able to use your opponent's graveyard for your advantage with cards like Beacon of Unrest or boosting cards like Jace's Phantasm. It can also throw off cards your opponents use to set up the top of his or her library like Congregation at Dawn or Liliana Vess
You're right, I think Ruric Thar is great too. It's a disappointment though that so many of the legends are terrible or obsolete versions of similar cards. I think you identified the 4 that are potentially playable.
I would say the exact same thing about damage
You're absolutely right though, you can take advantage of milling by playing cards that interact with the opponent's graveyard in some way.
Mill is just as likely to hit cards they do want as cards they do. It literally changes nothing about their next draw. At the same time, you're powering up cards like Runechanter's Pike and handing them flashback cards. Mill is negative card advantage for the person milling in most cases, because you aren't impacting the board state.
Mill can be fun. Mill can be powerful. But let's not pretend that milling takes away their most powerful cards.
Saying that Random mill doesn't affect games is inherently wrong. As an action that's being taken, you're mathematically adjusting probabilities of your opponent drawing/casting specific cards.
If by saying that the cards are face-down and randomized you mean to say that you feel the statistics should be ignored because you can't be sure of what the opponent's outs are or how many are in the deck, and the variables exist on such a wide scale that there isn't much reasoning behind "random mill", then I would conditionally agree with you (conditionally being based on the number of lands in your opponent's decks and how well they can remove creatures, etc.).
But simply saying that mill has "no effect" on a game is ludicrous. The effects are definitely nonzero.
Also, Dimir has plenty of spoiled cards that interact with graveyards.
I didn't just say it has "no effect.". I said it has no advantage unless you win the game or interact with the graveyard. Read an entire post before responding to it.
Random milling an opponent does not change their chance of drawing a specific card. I'm pretty confident about that and would stand by it unless someone can explain otherwise.
Imagine if mill put cards on the bottom of the library, unseen, instead of the graveyard.
Imagine that mill for 40 won you a game, even if the cards were returned to the bottom of the library.
He would never see any of them.
Would that change anything?
No.
Mill is pretty exactly like seeing the bottom cards of your library: Cards you will not draw.
If good cards are at the bottom of the library, you will not draw them.
Because the deck is randomly shuffled, milling cards from the top of your library = milling cards from the bottom of your library = playing with the bottom cards of your library revealed in a "40-mill-life" game.
If she's real then I seriously have to apologize to Mirko. Emmara makes him look almost OP by comparison. For her cost at least give those tokens some indestructibility please. Well I guess I pay one mana more without green involved and cast Avacyn. only fair I guess, mythic has to trump rare after all, thats how wotc rolls.
It does change the chance of (for better or worse) drawing a specific card. If X card is 4/43 (I assuming the opponent drew 6 cards since is a 5 drop :-/) of the library and you remove 1 of card X by milling 6 then the chances go down to 3/37. However how much it will change and which cards' chances it will change is up to random chance.
I don't think so. Those cards were already randomized in their deck.
Look at ADW's explanation, I think he put it really well.
This man is on top of his bidness.
I agree with what you're saying, they could be narrowing their deck to get to certain cards. However, that's less and less multiples of the cards they get per game. Lets say you mill 20 cards and you knock off their two or three copies of Obzedat, and that was one of their primary win conditions, now suddenly they have less ways to win. Or, you mill a great deal of removal from their deck, now they have less ways to deal with your creatures. Sure, you're narrowing their deck down to less cards, but every card is fit into a deck for a reason. Those sixty cards aren't just a bunch of nothing and then a few you actually need. All of them are important, and when you start taking them away, you're limiting their chances of defending themselves, unless their deck wants you to put cards in the graveyard. The random order doesn't help or harm them, it's only random.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Nope, initially, in a completely randomized deck, every card has a chance of 1/60 to be drawn. But as cards gets drawn or milled, the probability of drawing X card is now conditional because of the card that has already been milled/drawn are no longer in the deck.
Not to mention that milling is nothing like pulling out face down cards from the bottom of the deck. Putting cards into the graveyard gives a lot of information to both players and affect the way will go significantly. The milling effect may be random, the the decisions you make afterwards are conditional to the cards that were milled.
EXACTLY as if the cards were on the bottom of your library instead of at the top in a game where you don't draw more than 20 cards total.
You can't draw something that isn't on the top in a regular game.
Mill lets you KNOW that you won't draw a card -- just like playing with the bottom cards of your library revealed lets you know that those cards won't be drawn.
It does not change the game or probabilities -- it only changes your knowledge of the probabilites.
Every card among the bottom 40 cards in a game where you don't draw more than 20 cards could just as well have been exiled or milled out from the bottom of your library, without affecting the actual probabilites of drawing them; You would not have drawn them.
Now. Because you don't know where the cards in your library are, the effect of milling the top of your library instead of the bottom, in decks that don't manipulate their own libraries, has no bearing on the probabilites -- it just lets you know the probabilities.
No, you're right. Sometimes relevant things are milled. And sometimes lands are milled. And sometimes flashback cards are milled. Or scavenge cards. Or instant and sorcery cards that can be Snapcaster Maged or Archaeomancered or that matter for Runechanter's Pike.
So, actually, it's much worse to mill than you are anticipating. Because those sixty cards "aren't just a bunch of nothing". They're cards that are going to come back to bite you. In the meantime, the cards you are spending on mill are, in most every case, not impacting the board state in any meaningful way while you "remove" threats that weren't even threats at all.
Please, mill me. Mill my important cards. Mill my lands. Mill it all. Because I will still deal 20 damage before you can mill 45 cards most every time. And I play slow control decks.
How does this even make sense? Probability is the estimation of how likely an event is going to happen. If a card has been milled, the probability of drawing that card is now 0%, thus the probability has changed.
It is true that in the given situation, the physical bottom 40 cards would not have been drawn and that they might as well not have been there. However, the important part of this is not the physical cards but the information that players have at their disposal during the game.
In a game, any card in your deck has the same likelihood to be on the top, middle or bottom of the deck. The act of milling or exiling reveals the cards and tells the player that the exiled/milled card are, with certainty, not the card they are going to draw next. This information is real and has real impact upon decisions made in games.
For example, if a player see all 4 supreme verdict in his opponent's graveyard, he knows that he can safely play without playing around supreme verdict
It is true that milling from the top, the middle, or the bottom of the deck has no incidence on the probabilities as every physical card in the deck can be considered, simultaneously, as a land, a creatures, a sorcery and any other card in the deck. However, as I stated before, it is not the physical card that was milled out that is important, it is the knowledge that the card can no longer be drawn.
I'll admit, it getting dimir charmed didn't help improve my feelings towards it
He is bananas in limited that was clear from the start but people were starting to warm up to him at the prerelease after countless group jokes on how bad Dimir was
Please don't give WoTC any more ideas for red "random" junk cards.