The drawback doesn't make it bad. What makes it bad is it's a 4CC creature that only attacks and blocks. It's bad for the same reason Phyrexian Obliterator was bad, namely you'd spend your whole turn 4 casting it and your opponent would laugh and blow you out with Vapor Snag.
But vapor snag is not in standard with him. Unsummon is a significantly less appealing card and it's unclear whether delver tempo will be all that good (the only deck that can afford to use unsummon since they are racing; not trying to grind out card advantage like control)
I'm not convinced he is going to make a splash but I'm play devils advocate because I'm not convinced he's not playable.
Side note: He certainly will be amazing with kalia where his second ability will allow kalia to vomit out her overpriced ETB angels/demons/dragons to hopefully quash any resistance to her board advantage.
Poor little bugger just needs the traditional rakdos hellbent mindset, if you're on the play you have 3 turns to dump some guys and swing on t4, drop rakdos. Say they countered it or on their t4 they wrath, well then they called your bluff, that's magic.
What I'm hoping for is a black/red infernal plunge or burnt offering variant that enables shenanigans. Say "Sorcery, {B/R}, In addition sac a creature. Add {B}{R} to your mana pool. Deal 1 damage to each player."
I don't really see why everyone's comparing Rakdos to Phyrexian Obliterator's playability. The BBBB restricted you to a Monoblack deck, and at the time was not a very a strong option to play. He was also held down by Dismember, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Phantasmal Image. If Obliterator was in Innistrad and could stick around for this standard he would be a serious threat.
RRBB is still a highly restrictive cost and while the condition isn't hard to met you won't always be able to meet it, especially when your opponent knows you need to meet it. Obliterator is also much better in actually combat. Obliterator wasn't just held down by those cards. But mostly because creatures that cost more then 2 typically have to evade removal better, have more of an immediate impact or be Baneslayer angel(aka better then 6/6 flying trample). It's not that the card can't see play. It's just not gonna be as important to the format as SCM, Geist of Saint Taft, Huntmaster ect. or even the top flight removal spells. But gauging by this thread many people think it will be that good. When the truth is it has decent chance of not even seeing play. It;s like Obilterator because it's close in power level, wont live up to the hype and has many of the same flaws.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
I dunno how many times I have to go over this. If a creature costs 4+ mana, has no protection from removal, (hexproof, protection, undying, etc) and doesn't affect the board the turn it's played, (haste, CIP effect, buffs your other creatures, etc) it better outright win the game if it attacks once. And I don't mean deal damage to the opponent, I mean just attacking once. If it doesn't do any of these things, it's terrible no matter what the stats are. This could be 10/10, it would still be bad.
If you are going to risk getting blown out on tempo by playing a 4 CC spell that can get completely answered by your opponent's 2 CC removal spell with no benefit to you, it better have a damned utterly amazing effect when you turn it sideways.
Creatures that fail your "JtMS test" that saw or are currently seeing play:
People got way too spoiled by the Titans, so now nothing is good enough. Avacyn has protection and affects the board... and she can be Unsummoned for :symu:, unlike GoST. Removal exists. Permission exists. If your argument is based on either of those factors, hardly anything is going to be good enough for you.
Try and remember that, at one point, Serra Angel was considered an overpowered creature. Rakdos blows her out of the water.
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May your games be chaotic and your decks be Rogue.
RRBB is still a highly restrictive cost and while the condition isn't hard to met you won't always be able to meet it, especially when your opponent knows you need to meet it. Obliterator is also much better in actually combat. Obliterator wasn't just held down by those cards. But mostly because creatures that cost more then 2 typically have to evade removal better, have more of an immediate impact or be Baneslayer angel(aka better then 6/6 flying trample). It's not that the card can't see play. It's just not gonna be as important to the format as SCM, Geist of Saint Taft, Huntmaster ect. or even the top flight removal spells. But gauging by this thread many people think it will be that good. When the truth is it has decent chance of not even seeing play.
I really don't understand why people can see stuff like this and also mention Baneslayer Angel. Guys, Baneslayer Angel was really good in a format dominated by aggro and midrange decks because it helped slower decks stabilize. It completely fell off the radar as soon as Titans came on the scene because they had so much more impact, and because the format shifted away from decks like Jund that could drain your life so quickly. If Baneslayer Angel was legal now, she'd see no play whatsoever because she's horrible against Vapor Snag. Abyssal Persecutor saw play at the same time as Baneslayer. When tempo no longer dominates the format, cards like this (and Obliterator, for example) can come back in the game.
Outside all the heedless debate over a card we don't know if he's even real yet or not.
I like him. You don't have to, you don't play him, and if you think he's bad then by all means laugh when you stomp someone using him, but there's no point to sit here and circlejerk over who thinks he's bad or good weeks before he even hits the board and when we don't even know if the bastard is real yet.
So chill out ladies and gents, those who like the card, let them like it, we'll see who's proven right when rotation hits.
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I really don't understand why people can see stuff like this and also mention Baneslayer Angel. Guys, Baneslayer Angel was really good in a format dominated by aggro and midrange decks because it helped slower decks stabilize. It completely fell off the radar as soon as Titans came on the scene because they had so much more impact, and because the format shifted away from decks like Jund that could drain your life so quickly. If Baneslayer Angel was legal now, she'd see no play whatsoever because she's horrible against Vapor Snag. Abyssal Persecutor saw play at the same time as Baneslayer. When tempo no longer dominates the format, cards like this (and Obliterator, for example) can come back in the game.
Someone gets it. Mid-range can't exist in a format with an oppressive tempo deck. In an environment without a tempo deck Mid-range exists as a pre-eminent deck archetype.
Tempo just ****s on all the other archetypes, because they are one of the most oppressive. That's not an argument to use in a vacuum why a specific card is bad or good. You have to evaluate cards by what other cards are going to be in their environment.
With the way RtR is shaping up, it looks like magic will be back to the Mid range > Aggro > Control > Midrange formula we are used to. This guy will be a beater. He will see lots of play.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
You're out of your mind. It seems to me like you've never played a competitive mid-range deck...ever. When you play threats 1 through 5 your creatures do not need those things to be playable, they just need to be a threat (e.g. above the curve).
Mid-range decks are not really playable in environments with oppressive tempo decks (e.g. delver). All signs point to RtR / INN constructed having no T1 tempo deck. Delver is/will be dead.
This guy is an absolutely beating. How are you going to have any removal left for him when you're dropping threat after threat that needs to be answered? It's the whole point of mid-range. You sir do not know how to evaluate cards in specific environments.
Midrange decks also don't play 4+ CC vanilla creatures that just attack and block. Jund was the best midrange deck ever, and that was because its 4-drop (BBE) actually did something the turn you cast it. Its three drops also had removal protection, namely the 3/3 that became 3 1/1s when you killed it. (I don't even remember the name of this one)
The whole reason Jund was good was it was a bunch of 2-for-1s, which means you couldn't win against it with removal. This is not a 2-for-1. It eats a Dreadbore and then your opponent has enough mana left over to cast Forbidden Alchemy too, and suddenly you're way, way behind. Even a 2CC bounce spell + flashback Think Twice from the opponent gives him the advantage, the board state is the same and no CA has been lost, but he's delayed the game which is always to the control deck's advantage.
Yep, I just used the English definition of counter. Don't worry, it's okay to be genuinely confused. They even made a card about it.
I'm really not sure why you're being smug. We're talking about Magic here. It's not rocket science to figure out that terms that have a discrete meaning in the context of the game should probably not be used outside of that context. Especially when you weren't even right, since Fog only prevents combat damage.
Hey! A 4cc 6/6 flying/trample demon with a stupid drawback. Haven't seen that before. Percy was so much better than this, and he wasn't played a whole lot.
This will see some play, I'm sure, but not in anything that actually wins. Very cool card, though.
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Modern - RUG Delver RUG - Splinter Twin UR - Jund BRG
Legacy - RUG Delver RUG - Maverick GW - SI BG
Foreigning out SI, currently 33/75. The only thing better than a T1 kill is doing it with cards no one has ever heard of and/or can't read. If anyone has any of the usual pieces, PM me. I'm willing to buy/trade.
Midrange decks also don't play 4+ CC vanilla creatures that just attack and block. Jund was the best midrange deck ever, and that was because its 4-drop (BBE) actually did something the turn you cast it. Its three drops also had removal protection, namely the 3/3 that became 3 1/1s when you killed it. (I don't even remember the name of this one)
The whole reason Jund was good was it was a bunch of 2-for-1s, which means you couldn't win against it with removal. This is not a 2-for-1. It eats a Dreadbore and then your opponent has enough mana left over to cast Forbidden Alchemy too, and suddenly you're way, way behind. Even a 2CC bounce spell + flashback Think Twice from the opponent gives him the advantage, the board state is the same and no CA has been lost, but he's delayed the game which is always to the control deck's advantage.
Woo control decks playing Disperse, that happens all the time
People got way too spoiled by the Titans, so now nothing is good enough. Avacyn has protection and affects the board... and she can be Unsummoned for :symu:, unlike GoST. Removal exists. Permission exists. If your argument is based on either of those factors, hardly anything is going to be good enough for you.
Try and remember that, at one point, Serra Angel was considered an overpowered creature. Rakdos blows her out of the water.
Hero of Bladehold is the poster boy for "wins the game when you turn it sideways." I've never seen Odric or Djinn of Wishes in a serious Tier 1 or Tier 2 deck in any format. Talrand is good because Delver plays Phyrexian mana spells the same turn it casts it to get an immediate benefit. It's not going to be played either after those rotate. And of course, Thrun has removal protection. In fact, it's seeing very little play because Phantasmal Image acts as a 2-CC removal spell for it, which is the exact problem I was alluding to.
I don't know why it's so hard to understand. "Dies to removal" is not a drawback.....when the creature costs 1 or 2 mana. When the creature costs 4 mana, it absolutely is a massive drawback. If you don't get anything from your 4 CC investment after it dies to their 2 CC removal, it's not worth playing.
So I'm beginning to doubt this card heavily for a large variety of reasons, the least of which the source has absolutely no verification.
He says he "held this card today" on the post, strange how if he had early access to RTR cards it'd only be this one that was shown (the card everyone has been anxious to see revealed) and it runs on the "paincast" system that supposedly Rosewater talked about earlier this week without any real detail.
It just seems sloppy, the poster no one's ever heard of, his freaking facebook cover is a troll logo for heaven's sake, the guy was just posting about a pod deck on TCG the other day but now all of a sudden he's spoiling a mythic with no background on how he got it, where he took the picture, etc. The font on the card also looks really funny (although that could be crap quality pic doing that).
I don't know, I'd rather see everyone debate the fact this is probably fake than whether its playable. Rootbound Defenses was a card we'd never heard of, using artwork we'd never seen (that matched PERFECTLY Selesnya), it was common, and he posted more than a single picture.
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Rakdos won't be good. Is it a strong card? Absolutely. But determining how good a card will be in constructed requires divorcing a strong effect from strong alternatives.
Yes, it has a very strong effect once cast. And yes, it has strong, game breaking stats.
However, it's mana cost restricts it to B/R, which means, can decks that will run both colors prefer the aggressiveness of a Falkenrath Aristocrat, or the immediate control of Olivia Voldaren? I doubt it. Rakdos' ability seems irrelevant insofar as it screams "win more". His stats are what will determine whether he sees play.
Obviously, it depends on how Standard shakes out, but constructed is rarely ever kind to midrange, and when it is, the midrange cards that make these decks efficient aren't creatures with difficult mana requirements, and no immediacy...they're cards like Huntmaster, Blade Splicer, Restoration Angel, etc...cards that give you value beyond power and toughness.
I love red/black, and have since the days of Machine Head, but Rakdos is not the card to propel it. Chances are, R/B will stay tribal...either with Zombies (though B/G may be the color combination of choice), or Vampires, or as strong support in Jund midrange.
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Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
It's sad to be playing magic in these days where a 6/6 flying trampler, that makes your guys cheaper, is considered to be not that good.
I like this card, and I obviously think it's strong but as everyone has pointed out, in the modern days of Magic, it's probably not constructed-worthy as much as I want him to be!
This card i ridiculously above the curve that I'm still wondering how it got the green light. Hero of Bladehold was a 4 drop that saw tons of play and she didn't protect herself from removal or anything like that. But if something so ridiculously above the curve at 4 mana is unplayable, I have little hope for MtG's future. o.o
But yeah, looks like I gotta start upping the O-Ring count in my white decks again. :\
Rakdos will see play, depending on the rest of the red/black that has yet to be spoiled.
Aside from that, laying down Rakdos is as easy as a vial in modern or the ease of mana
fixing in standard. You don't even have to cast a burn spell to play him because, if you
know how to handle the guild, you'd play some aggressive weenies to start with some
sort of intimidate or fear ability to help you with that for no cost at all.
The excuse of "dies to removal" is a lame one, since not all of the creatures used in
standard are able to avoid those sorts of spells. It's a sucky way of evaluating a card.
How is it countered by Fog?
Standard: W/R Aggro
But vapor snag is not in standard with him. Unsummon is a significantly less appealing card and it's unclear whether delver tempo will be all that good (the only deck that can afford to use unsummon since they are racing; not trying to grind out card advantage like control)
I'm not convinced he is going to make a splash but I'm play devils advocate because I'm not convinced he's not playable.
Side note: He certainly will be amazing with kalia where his second ability will allow kalia to vomit out her overpriced ETB angels/demons/dragons to hopefully quash any resistance to her board advantage.
What I'm hoping for is a black/red infernal plunge or burnt offering variant that enables shenanigans. Say "Sorcery, {B/R}, In addition sac a creature. Add {B}{R} to your mana pool. Deal 1 damage to each player."
RRBB is still a highly restrictive cost and while the condition isn't hard to met you won't always be able to meet it, especially when your opponent knows you need to meet it. Obliterator is also much better in actually combat. Obliterator wasn't just held down by those cards. But mostly because creatures that cost more then 2 typically have to evade removal better, have more of an immediate impact or be Baneslayer angel(aka better then 6/6 flying trample). It's not that the card can't see play. It's just not gonna be as important to the format as SCM, Geist of Saint Taft, Huntmaster ect. or even the top flight removal spells. But gauging by this thread many people think it will be that good. When the truth is it has decent chance of not even seeing play. It;s like Obilterator because it's close in power level, wont live up to the hype and has many of the same flaws.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
It's a decent, playable creature in the new Standard.
You can't cast it if you don't deal damage. Virtually countered.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Creatures that fail your "JtMS test" that saw or are currently seeing play:
Hero of Bladehold
Odric, Master Tactician
Talrand, Sky Summoner
Thrun, the Last Troll
Djinn of Wishes
Consecrated Sphinx
People got way too spoiled by the Titans, so now nothing is good enough. Avacyn has protection and affects the board... and she can be Unsummoned for :symu:, unlike GoST. Removal exists. Permission exists. If your argument is based on either of those factors, hardly anything is going to be good enough for you.
Try and remember that, at one point, Serra Angel was considered an overpowered creature. Rakdos blows her out of the water.
I really don't understand why people can see stuff like this and also mention Baneslayer Angel. Guys, Baneslayer Angel was really good in a format dominated by aggro and midrange decks because it helped slower decks stabilize. It completely fell off the radar as soon as Titans came on the scene because they had so much more impact, and because the format shifted away from decks like Jund that could drain your life so quickly. If Baneslayer Angel was legal now, she'd see no play whatsoever because she's horrible against Vapor Snag. Abyssal Persecutor saw play at the same time as Baneslayer. When tempo no longer dominates the format, cards like this (and Obliterator, for example) can come back in the game.
Oh, so your definition of "countered" is completely different from what it means in an actual game of Magic. Okay.
Standard: W/R Aggro
Rakdos, Lord of Riots: "What did you say?"
MtgSalv Forums: "HOLY ****!!!"
Modern:WUSpiritsWU, R12 BoltR
Commander:Diamonds are a Girls Best Friend, Ace of Spades, I Love the Night, The Reaper
~Signature by: Miraculous Recovery Signatures~
I like him. You don't have to, you don't play him, and if you think he's bad then by all means laugh when you stomp someone using him, but there's no point to sit here and circlejerk over who thinks he's bad or good weeks before he even hits the board and when we don't even know if the bastard is real yet.
So chill out ladies and gents, those who like the card, let them like it, we'll see who's proven right when rotation hits.
RRR Khorenthos - The Red Block (Feedback needed!) RRR
Someone gets it. Mid-range can't exist in a format with an oppressive tempo deck. In an environment without a tempo deck Mid-range exists as a pre-eminent deck archetype.
Tempo just ****s on all the other archetypes, because they are one of the most oppressive. That's not an argument to use in a vacuum why a specific card is bad or good. You have to evaluate cards by what other cards are going to be in their environment.
With the way RtR is shaping up, it looks like magic will be back to the Mid range > Aggro > Control > Midrange formula we are used to. This guy will be a beater. He will see lots of play.
Yep, I just used the English definition of counter. Don't worry, it's okay to be genuinely confused. They even made a card about it.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Midrange decks also don't play 4+ CC vanilla creatures that just attack and block. Jund was the best midrange deck ever, and that was because its 4-drop (BBE) actually did something the turn you cast it. Its three drops also had removal protection, namely the 3/3 that became 3 1/1s when you killed it. (I don't even remember the name of this one)
The whole reason Jund was good was it was a bunch of 2-for-1s, which means you couldn't win against it with removal. This is not a 2-for-1. It eats a Dreadbore and then your opponent has enough mana left over to cast Forbidden Alchemy too, and suddenly you're way, way behind. Even a 2CC bounce spell + flashback Think Twice from the opponent gives him the advantage, the board state is the same and no CA has been lost, but he's delayed the game which is always to the control deck's advantage.
I'm really not sure why you're being smug. We're talking about Magic here. It's not rocket science to figure out that terms that have a discrete meaning in the context of the game should probably not be used outside of that context. Especially when you weren't even right, since Fog only prevents combat damage.
Standard: W/R Aggro
This will see some play, I'm sure, but not in anything that actually wins. Very cool card, though.
Legacy - RUG Delver RUG - Maverick GW - SI BG
Foreigning out SI, currently 33/75. The only thing better than a T1 kill is doing it with cards no one has ever heard of and/or can't read. If anyone has any of the usual pieces, PM me. I'm willing to buy/trade.
Woo control decks playing Disperse, that happens all the time
Standard: W/R Aggro
Hero of Bladehold is the poster boy for "wins the game when you turn it sideways." I've never seen Odric or Djinn of Wishes in a serious Tier 1 or Tier 2 deck in any format. Talrand is good because Delver plays Phyrexian mana spells the same turn it casts it to get an immediate benefit. It's not going to be played either after those rotate. And of course, Thrun has removal protection. In fact, it's seeing very little play because Phantasmal Image acts as a 2-CC removal spell for it, which is the exact problem I was alluding to.
I don't know why it's so hard to understand. "Dies to removal" is not a drawback.....when the creature costs 1 or 2 mana. When the creature costs 4 mana, it absolutely is a massive drawback. If you don't get anything from your 4 CC investment after it dies to their 2 CC removal, it's not worth playing.
He says he "held this card today" on the post, strange how if he had early access to RTR cards it'd only be this one that was shown (the card everyone has been anxious to see revealed) and it runs on the "paincast" system that supposedly Rosewater talked about earlier this week without any real detail.
It just seems sloppy, the poster no one's ever heard of, his freaking facebook cover is a troll logo for heaven's sake, the guy was just posting about a pod deck on TCG the other day but now all of a sudden he's spoiling a mythic with no background on how he got it, where he took the picture, etc. The font on the card also looks really funny (although that could be crap quality pic doing that).
I don't know, I'd rather see everyone debate the fact this is probably fake than whether its playable. Rootbound Defenses was a card we'd never heard of, using artwork we'd never seen (that matched PERFECTLY Selesnya), it was common, and he posted more than a single picture.
RRR Khorenthos - The Red Block (Feedback needed!) RRR
- Cyclonic Rift -
That card is going to be utterly dominant. That is just one card though.
Yes, it has a very strong effect once cast. And yes, it has strong, game breaking stats.
However, it's mana cost restricts it to B/R, which means, can decks that will run both colors prefer the aggressiveness of a Falkenrath Aristocrat, or the immediate control of Olivia Voldaren? I doubt it. Rakdos' ability seems irrelevant insofar as it screams "win more". His stats are what will determine whether he sees play.
Obviously, it depends on how Standard shakes out, but constructed is rarely ever kind to midrange, and when it is, the midrange cards that make these decks efficient aren't creatures with difficult mana requirements, and no immediacy...they're cards like Huntmaster, Blade Splicer, Restoration Angel, etc...cards that give you value beyond power and toughness.
I love red/black, and have since the days of Machine Head, but Rakdos is not the card to propel it. Chances are, R/B will stay tribal...either with Zombies (though B/G may be the color combination of choice), or Vampires, or as strong support in Jund midrange.
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
This card i ridiculously above the curve that I'm still wondering how it got the green light. Hero of Bladehold was a 4 drop that saw tons of play and she didn't protect herself from removal or anything like that. But if something so ridiculously above the curve at 4 mana is unplayable, I have little hope for MtG's future. o.o
But yeah, looks like I gotta start upping the O-Ring count in my white decks again. :\
RGGruul Aggro
WSoul Sisters
WBTokens
BUGRRestore Balance
BMono-Black Infect
EDH:
RGWMayael, the Anima
GWURoon of the Hidden Realm
BDrana, Kalastria Bloodchief
It should be at least noted in the main post that its not confirmed yet.
RRR Khorenthos - The Red Block (Feedback needed!) RRR
Correct.
Aside from that, laying down Rakdos is as easy as a vial in modern or the ease of mana
fixing in standard. You don't even have to cast a burn spell to play him because, if you
know how to handle the guild, you'd play some aggressive weenies to start with some
sort of intimidate or fear ability to help you with that for no cost at all.
The excuse of "dies to removal" is a lame one, since not all of the creatures used in
standard are able to avoid those sorts of spells. It's a sucky way of evaluating a card.
WUR Enduring Ideal RUW
GGG Stompy Crux GGG
-- Elder Dragon Highlander --
UBU
Grimgrin, Zombie HordeUBURWR
Jor Kadeen TronRWRBRU Sedris Beatdown URB
UUU Llawan, Empress of "No" UUU
WBW Vish Kal Tron WBW
GRG Thromok Token GRG
RRR Zo-Zu, Hater of Everything RRR