You win no matter what happens....what's with the "take it with a grain of salt" comment? If your opponent wants to stop it they have to lose a creature, and make it BIGGER. There is no downside to this card. It's all upside.
Is it an upside or a downside that this creature can be chump blocked by a tapped gravecrawler even if you didn't want to attack?
Is it an upside or a downside that this creature can be chump blocked by a tapped gravecrawler even if you didn't want to attack?
You spent four mana on it that's why it's not the end of the world. Yes you're shutting down there 1 mana card, which isn't ideal, but the fact is you're still slowing them down, thus hurting their chances at winning. But I admit, Gravecrawler is a counter. However....... not every deck plays Gravecrawler. You can't just take 1 example and treat it like it makes the card invalid. Maybe against Zombies it's a sub par pick, but the thing is is this gets around hexproof etc. Treat it like repeatable removal and run it alongside other threats.
And you forget all the while it is getting bigger and bigger....not like Graveyard removal is hard to come by either. I recall a certain 0 mana Artifact that exiles the opponent's graveyard? Put it in the sideboard for decks that rely on Gravecrawler, and all of the sudden your Demon is a lot scarier.
You win no matter what happens....what's with the "take it with a grain of salt" comment? If your opponent wants to stop it they have to lose a creature, and make it bigger. There is no downside to this card. It's all upside. Hell if it never swings who the hell cares? Your opponent has no field. Yeah yeah it's never an ender when you want it to be.....so, what. They lose their field, you win by swinging with another creature.
Like someone said, play it like an enchantment. Not all that difficult of a concept to understand.
I really hope people are done asking why I'm comparing this to the Vexing Devil thread.
I really hope people are done asking why I'm comparing this to the Vexing Devil thread.
It's a bit different than Vexing Devil bro. This is ALWAYS a creature. Vexing Devil is either burn or a undercosted fatty. But you know....we could just ignore that.....nah on the other hand we really shouldn't as it makes them completely different cards.
No matter what the threat of this swinging is always possible, because if you don't kill it eventually you will run out of fodder to feed it and it WILL kill you.
So how about thinking through your comparisons a little better before attempting to make me look stupid? I know you guys like to auto dismiss punisher mechanics, and most of the time I agree you should, but you're ignoring the fact that this is MUCH more consistant. This is always a creature, it does not change or leave the board. It is a REPEATABLE punisher effect, which is something we have not had before.
You spent four mana on it that's why it's not the end of the world. Yes you're shutting down there 1 mana card, which isn't ideal, but the fact is you're still slowing them down, thus hurting their chances at winning. But I admit, Gravecrawler is a counter. However....... not every deck plays Gravecrawler. You can't just take 1 example and treat it like it makes the card invalid. Maybe against Zombies it's a sub par pick, but the thing is is this gets around hexproof etc. Treat it like repeatable removal and run it alongside other threats.
About the same degree of repeatable removal you get from a trained orgg, and a glissa 2.0 looks like an active legacy weapon by comparison. All upside, besides the downside sides :/
It is a REPEATABLE punisher effect, which is something we have not had before.
Do me a favor and search Gatherer for the word "Rhystic." Take your time, I'll wait. In fact, you can take a look at most of Prophecy, and tell me how often those cards saw play.
About the same degree of repeatable removal you get from a trained orgg, and a glissa 2.0 looks like an active legacy weapon by comparison. All upside, besides the downside sides :/
>_<, look I explained in the previous post why this MIGHT be a viable punisher effect. Many times punisher effects change the card fundamentally, like Vexing Devil, either a spell or a creature, your opponent choosing when to give you a spell over a creature is pretty much always bad. Browbeat is either burn or card advantage, two entrely different philosophes.
This however, even if the sac half is utilized more often than not, is STILL a creature. It is a permanent with a punisher effect, that feeds it's other effect (big flying beasty) while it's sac half is used, and is always a creature. So the time will come when they run out of sac fodder and must take the hit if they can't remove it. When this happens they lose, because they enhanced the other half the whole time.
In short for those of you who don't get it, both halves of this card enhance the fact that it is a CREATURE. Clearing the board makes it easier for him to swing when the time comes. Growing stronger all the while means it's game over when he hits. Being an underosted fatty means he hurts whether fed or no
This is a new type of punisher, a permanent. Until now most were either always spells or spells/creatures (depending on what the opponent chose). This however is a permanent punisher, one that affects the board state regardless of which choice is chosen, and feeds itself as well.
So it deserves more evaluation than the typical "Oh punisher sucks" comment. I'm sick of people just repeating garabage they hear from higher ups. Think for yourself and take the time to examin the card.
About the same degree of repeatable removal you get from a trained orgg, and a glissa 2.0 looks like an active legacy weapon by comparison. All upside, besides the downside sides :/
Trained orgg costs 7, my man. Trained orgg does not have the vampiric ability, man. Trained orgg is a bad example and you should feel bad. Glissa has half as much power for complex mana cost. The hate on this card baffles me. I understand that it is the least evasive creature in the universe, but it is still huge for its mana cost.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
Feel free to tell me yours!
Do me a favor and search Gatherer for the word "Rhystic." Take your time, I'll wait. In fact, you can take a look at most of Prophecy, and tell me how often those cards saw play.
Edit/ thats not the droid I was looking for! Bah this ones gonna be tough to dig up via phone
Trained orgg costs 7, my man. Trained orgg does not have the vampiric ability, man. Trained orgg is a bad example and you should feel bad. Glissa has half as much power for complex mana cost. The hate on this card baffles me. I understand that it is the least evasive creature in the universe, but it is still huge for its mana cost.
Shhhhhh, don't point out flaws in his argument! It makes him look bad!
If you play any guild you will want three copies of the charm that is aligned to it, simply because you have a card that does multiple things while taking only one spot.
But yeah, play this in a dimir deck and use Cackling Counterpart to make your opponent hate your guts.
Esper Populate demons! That would be the biggest troll deck ever but the look on someones face as you continue to make tokens of him.
I dont see why it would be bad in limited. A 4 mana 6/6 whose flying makes him untradeable via combat that forces your opponent to sacrifice a creature every turn is pretty hard to deal with. The key thing to remember is that he comes out relatively early, not 7+ turns in when the board is clogged and sacrificing a spare creature is done easily.
And the trained orgg analogy would fit if he costed 4 mana.
This card will be the worst rare in RTR and less remembered than skaab ruibator in three months. It struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls, even in limited.
That its not simply "not good enough for competitive", or underpowered. But that this is offensively bad, the real stinker tier.
Still, my best evaluation is that its approximately on the same power level as a 4/4 for 4 vanilla beater.
I feel relatively certain that either the golgari or rakdos charm will include and anti-graveyard component...
Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, Purify the Grave are all already in the format and not holding down Zombies at all. A two-mana variant isn't going to change that.
Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, Purify the Grave are all already in the format and not holding down Zombies at all. A two-mana variant isn't going to change that.
They are not played exactly because they do nothing except stop the graveyard shenanigans. The Charms (well probably just one) will have 2 other modes and if those are good, they will be played.
This card will be the worst rare in RTR and less remembered than skaab ruibator in three months. It struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls, even in limited.
That its not simply "not good enough for competitive", or underpowered. But that this is offensively bad, the real stinker tier.
Still, my best evaluation is that its approximately on the same power level as a 4/4 for 4 vanilla beater.
So it deserves more evaluation than the typical "Oh punisher sucks" comment. I'm sick of people just repeating garabage they hear from higher ups. Think for yourself and take the time to examin the card.
I thought, and it took no time or effort. I looked at a picture of juzam djinn, then webt to work. Because Ive had the misfortune of lecturing for a seminar on that very subject of game theory, and I can be more precise;
A "punisher" mechanic will in a minimax situation is worth less the least of any of the choices in abtract value, worse for how disparate the choices are, barring the implicit ability to manipulate the opponents decision (warp the minimax say through removing choice ala lure, or mindslaver, or simple mindgames).
That is to say for example a blazing salvo is much, much worse than a lightning bolt, barring mind games, which are quite frankly an inconsequential factor you cannot reasonably build around. But take it a step further. You could have a card that says R, Instant: You win the game unless any player has ~ deal 3 damage to him. Which is worse than a bolt, despite the "win the game" clause. And again- more similar the effects, the closer the overall value is to the lesser of the two. The more disparate, the worse- so if both options are burn, theres less loss than if one was burn, one was card draw (*cough* browbeat */cough*)
This demon? Its always a bad card. The two choices are both overcosted compared to what other creatures bring. You cant evaluate these costs as if they were on an enchantment- a trained orgg provides the same 'choice' to your opponent. Its provably worse than a vanilla beater of the same value, so why overcomplicate it and debate upon obtuse parallels when you can just reduce it to the simplest example, and show that example is both underpowered and stronger than the demon
I dont see why it would be bad in limited. A 4 mana 6/6 whose flying makes him untradeable via combat that forces your opponent to sacrifice a creature every turn is pretty hard to deal with. The key thing to remember is that he comes out relatively early, not 7+ turns in when the board is clogged and sacrificing a spare creature is done easily.
Because being able to block and wield auras & equipments are that much more important in limited, which even T4 has no shortage of chump. Its not to say hes a chimney imp, its just to say that a mass of ghouls is probably better
Sengir Vampire is better than this card, as it has real evasion. Being able to block and to attack reliably > being 1 mana cheaper and having +2+2. Everytime ez.
I thought, and it took no time or effort. I looked at a picture of juzam djinn, then webt to work. Because Ive had the misfortune of lecturing for a seminar on that very subject of game theory, and I can be more precise;
A "punisher" mechanic will in a minimax situation is worth less the least of any of the choices in abtract value, worse for how disparate the choices are, barring the implicit ability to manipulate the opponents decision (warp the minimax say through removing choice ala lure, or mindslaver, or simple mindgames).
That is to say for example a blazing salvo is much, much worse than a lightning bolt, barring mind games, which are quite frankly an inconsequential factor you cannot reasonably build around. But take it a step further. You could have a card that says R, Instant: You win the game unless any player has ~ deal 3 damage to him. Which is worse than a bolt, despite the "win the game" clause. And again- more similar the effects, the closer the overall value is to the lesser of the two. The more disparate, the worse- so if both options are burn, theres less loss than if one was burn, one was card draw (*cough* browbeat */cough*)
This demon? Its always a bad card. The two choices are both overcosted compared to what other creatures bring. You cant evaluate these costs as if they were on an enchantment- a trained orgg provides the same 'choice' to your opponent. Its provably worse than a vanilla beater of the same value, so why overcomplicate it and debate upon obtuse parallels when you can just reduce it to the simplest example, and show that example is both underpowered and stronger than the demon
What? Where do you get this? Care to explain what on this card is "overcosted"? Seriously, you can't just say it is, because from what I'm looking at it's well under the curve.....explain yourself please.
Because being able to block and wield auras & equipments are that much more important in limited, which even T4 has no shortage of chump. Its not to say hes a chimney imp, its just to say that a mass of ghouls is probably better
Good gravy you will say anything to crap on this card. It's worse than mass of ghouls in limited? Really? This is getting into troll territory. Just... just give up.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
Feel free to tell me yours!
Well, to be fair, the Demon doesn't die to any cheap burn like the Hydra does for its first two turns or Abrupt Decay, and isn't set back as badly by bounce. /devilsadvocate
Again, not saying the card is great, but it shouldn't be written off like it was Zephyr Spirit. Also, why were you comparing this to Hydra to begin with? I saw the previous post, and wasn't sure why you were showing scenarios where you are goldfishing with two pretty different creatures that can be targeted by your opponent. I know you were responding to 'tuna, but just ignore him and move on. It'll be a $0.50-$1 card like most of the other decent Demons we've seen recently.
EDIT: I also feel this needs to go into a deck with tons of other efficient beaters, not a control deck where this sits at the top of your curve as a finisher. The fewer creatures you play, the more relevant you are going make your opponents removal...and that will just ruin your day.
Look Poindexter, quit comparing cards to your food budget.
Seriously though, I do believe that he would be best topping off the curve in a deck with efficient beaters as well, so I guess you share my opinion of the card. Its just extremely ridiculous when I hear the same old dies to removal or worst case scenario arguments over and over. I was just mocking him.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard:
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
Good gravy you will say anything to crap on this card. It's worse than mass of ghouls in limited? Really? This is getting into troll territory. Just... just give up.
That's what he does in my experience, exaggerates the negatives of a card in an attempt to come off as knowledgeable. Skepticism is often used to produce the illusion of intelligence and he's just another person drinking the kool-aid.
Anywho not saying this card is the be all end all, but when he makes statements like that and then proceeds to claim both effects of this card are "overcosted" it's hard to take him seriously. I mean I get the underlying principal of "the opponent choosing is bad", but the fact is while that is mostly true, at some point that can be overcome if both choices are a lose lose situation.
One half of this card says lose your field (aka lose the game) and the other half says eat a massive flyer (that grows if they stall its initial attack, meaning that when they run out of options this half will win because it will be over a 6/6.....which correct me if I'm wrong but anything as big or bigger than that tends to win the game when it connects). At all times this card is a creature and never stops having a board affecting presence unlike many punisher cards, keep that in mind.
To me this seems it has about reached the level of lose or lose, which means it might be one of the very few punisher cards that might see play. This is a card you run along in a high threat density deck, not like it's so cost prohibitive that you can't run other threats along with it.
Good gravy you will say anything to crap on this card. It's worse than mass of ghouls in limited? Really? This is getting into troll territory. Just... just give up.
Ive been saying that consistently for many pages and threads, scroll on back now. And its quite true; this will be arguably a worse limited snag than mass of ghouls. Maybe slightly worse, maybe slightly better, probably around the same, but the implication is clear enough, isnt it?
A 5/3 for 5 that you can actually block with, that is significantly more evasive than the 6/6 for 4, which has the addditional drawback of working extremely poorly with equipments and auras- which are far more used in drafts. And for good measure, less tribal support likely, inconsequential as that is.
Whats better, a 5/3 for 5 or a 4/4 for 4? Because overall im pegging this demon as being worth around what a 4/4 for 4 does. And in limited, what can I say? Strap a hammer to the ghouls and autowin. Strap an eldrazi conscription to this demon and hes *still* inert
Is it an upside or a downside that this creature can be chump blocked by a tapped gravecrawler even if you didn't want to attack?
You spent four mana on it that's why it's not the end of the world. Yes you're shutting down there 1 mana card, which isn't ideal, but the fact is you're still slowing them down, thus hurting their chances at winning. But I admit, Gravecrawler is a counter. However....... not every deck plays Gravecrawler. You can't just take 1 example and treat it like it makes the card invalid. Maybe against Zombies it's a sub par pick, but the thing is is this gets around hexproof etc. Treat it like repeatable removal and run it alongside other threats.
And you forget all the while it is getting bigger and bigger....not like Graveyard removal is hard to come by either. I recall a certain 0 mana Artifact that exiles the opponent's graveyard? Put it in the sideboard for decks that rely on Gravecrawler, and all of the sudden your Demon is a lot scarier.
I really hope people are done asking why I'm comparing this to the Vexing Devil thread.
Standard: W/R Aggro
It's a bit different than Vexing Devil bro. This is ALWAYS a creature. Vexing Devil is either burn or a undercosted fatty. But you know....we could just ignore that.....nah on the other hand we really shouldn't as it makes them completely different cards.
No matter what the threat of this swinging is always possible, because if you don't kill it eventually you will run out of fodder to feed it and it WILL kill you.
So how about thinking through your comparisons a little better before attempting to make me look stupid? I know you guys like to auto dismiss punisher mechanics, and most of the time I agree you should, but you're ignoring the fact that this is MUCH more consistant. This is always a creature, it does not change or leave the board. It is a REPEATABLE punisher effect, which is something we have not had before.
About the same degree of repeatable removal you get from a trained orgg, and a glissa 2.0 looks like an active legacy weapon by comparison. All upside, besides the downside sides :/
Do me a favor and search Gatherer for the word "Rhystic." Take your time, I'll wait. In fact, you can take a look at most of Prophecy, and tell me how often those cards saw play.
Standard: W/R Aggro
>_<, look I explained in the previous post why this MIGHT be a viable punisher effect. Many times punisher effects change the card fundamentally, like Vexing Devil, either a spell or a creature, your opponent choosing when to give you a spell over a creature is pretty much always bad. Browbeat is either burn or card advantage, two entrely different philosophes.
This however, even if the sac half is utilized more often than not, is STILL a creature. It is a permanent with a punisher effect, that feeds it's other effect (big flying beasty) while it's sac half is used, and is always a creature. So the time will come when they run out of sac fodder and must take the hit if they can't remove it. When this happens they lose, because they enhanced the other half the whole time.
In short for those of you who don't get it, both halves of this card enhance the fact that it is a CREATURE. Clearing the board makes it easier for him to swing when the time comes. Growing stronger all the while means it's game over when he hits. Being an underosted fatty means he hurts whether fed or no
This is a new type of punisher, a permanent. Until now most were either always spells or spells/creatures (depending on what the opponent chose). This however is a permanent punisher, one that affects the board state regardless of which choice is chosen, and feeds itself as well.
So it deserves more evaluation than the typical "Oh punisher sucks" comment. I'm sick of people just repeating garabage they hear from higher ups. Think for yourself and take the time to examin the card.
Trained orgg costs 7, my man. Trained orgg does not have the vampiric ability, man. Trained orgg is a bad example and you should feel bad. Glissa has half as much power for complex mana cost. The hate on this card baffles me. I understand that it is the least evasive creature in the universe, but it is still huge for its mana cost.
Feel free to tell me yours!
Edit/ thats not the droid I was looking for! Bah this ones gonna be tough to dig up via phone
Shhhhhh, don't point out flaws in his argument! It makes him look bad!
I feel relatively certain that either the golgari or rakdos charm will include and anti-graveyard component...
Esper Populate demons! That would be the biggest troll deck ever but the look on someones face as you continue to make tokens of him.
And the trained orgg analogy would fit if he costed 4 mana.
Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, Purify the Grave are all already in the format and not holding down Zombies at all. A two-mana variant isn't going to change that.
Standard: W/R Aggro
They are not played exactly because they do nothing except stop the graveyard shenanigans. The Charms (well probably just one) will have 2 other modes and if those are good, they will be played.
I thought, and it took no time or effort. I looked at a picture of juzam djinn, then webt to work. Because Ive had the misfortune of lecturing for a seminar on that very subject of game theory, and I can be more precise;
A "punisher" mechanic will in a minimax situation is worth less the least of any of the choices in abtract value, worse for how disparate the choices are, barring the implicit ability to manipulate the opponents decision (warp the minimax say through removing choice ala lure, or mindslaver, or simple mindgames).
That is to say for example a blazing salvo is much, much worse than a lightning bolt, barring mind games, which are quite frankly an inconsequential factor you cannot reasonably build around. But take it a step further. You could have a card that says R, Instant: You win the game unless any player has ~ deal 3 damage to him. Which is worse than a bolt, despite the "win the game" clause. And again- more similar the effects, the closer the overall value is to the lesser of the two. The more disparate, the worse- so if both options are burn, theres less loss than if one was burn, one was card draw (*cough* browbeat */cough*)
This demon? Its always a bad card. The two choices are both overcosted compared to what other creatures bring. You cant evaluate these costs as if they were on an enchantment- a trained orgg provides the same 'choice' to your opponent. Its provably worse than a vanilla beater of the same value, so why overcomplicate it and debate upon obtuse parallels when you can just reduce it to the simplest example, and show that example is both underpowered and stronger than the demon
Because being able to block and wield auras & equipments are that much more important in limited, which even T4 has no shortage of chump. Its not to say hes a chimney imp, its just to say that a mass of ghouls is probably better
What? Where do you get this? Care to explain what on this card is "overcosted"? Seriously, you can't just say it is, because from what I'm looking at it's well under the curve.....explain yourself please.
Good gravy you will say anything to crap on this card. It's worse than mass of ghouls in limited? Really? This is getting into troll territory. Just... just give up.
Feel free to tell me yours!
Look Poindexter, quit comparing cards to your food budget.
Seriously though, I do believe that he would be best topping off the curve in a deck with efficient beaters as well, so I guess you share my opinion of the card. Its just extremely ridiculous when I hear the same old dies to removal or worst case scenario arguments over and over. I was just mocking him.
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
4/5 Stars from me
That's what he does in my experience, exaggerates the negatives of a card in an attempt to come off as knowledgeable. Skepticism is often used to produce the illusion of intelligence and he's just another person drinking the kool-aid.
Anywho not saying this card is the be all end all, but when he makes statements like that and then proceeds to claim both effects of this card are "overcosted" it's hard to take him seriously. I mean I get the underlying principal of "the opponent choosing is bad", but the fact is while that is mostly true, at some point that can be overcome if both choices are a lose lose situation.
One half of this card says lose your field (aka lose the game) and the other half says eat a massive flyer (that grows if they stall its initial attack, meaning that when they run out of options this half will win because it will be over a 6/6.....which correct me if I'm wrong but anything as big or bigger than that tends to win the game when it connects). At all times this card is a creature and never stops having a board affecting presence unlike many punisher cards, keep that in mind.
To me this seems it has about reached the level of lose or lose, which means it might be one of the very few punisher cards that might see play. This is a card you run along in a high threat density deck, not like it's so cost prohibitive that you can't run other threats along with it.
Ive been saying that consistently for many pages and threads, scroll on back now. And its quite true; this will be arguably a worse limited snag than mass of ghouls. Maybe slightly worse, maybe slightly better, probably around the same, but the implication is clear enough, isnt it?
A 5/3 for 5 that you can actually block with, that is significantly more evasive than the 6/6 for 4, which has the addditional drawback of working extremely poorly with equipments and auras- which are far more used in drafts. And for good measure, less tribal support likely, inconsequential as that is.
Whats better, a 5/3 for 5 or a 4/4 for 4? Because overall im pegging this demon as being worth around what a 4/4 for 4 does. And in limited, what can I say? Strap a hammer to the ghouls and autowin. Strap an eldrazi conscription to this demon and hes *still* inert