I like this demon, black has been the best color at getting rid of opposing critters, both one at a time or with mass removal, so this guy won't have that much trouble to attack.
Lingering Souls just got better. I can definitely see this going in GB decks, to which I would like to point out: hey? What are all the other guilds getting?
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"The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself." - William Blake
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft. It stinks more than pretty much anything in recent memory. Dont mistake this as an abyssal persecutor, which was just too impotent to see play, with a mostly inconsequential drawback- this cards drawback makes Lord of the Pit look friendly. Were talking about a sitting duck that does nothing but attack and block yet can neither attack nor block when you want him to.
Like I said, primeval titan does not "die" to doom blade. Nor can you simply terminate the grave titan. The fact you dont understand what Im saying is the exact same reason you are overvaluing this dreadful card and dismissing the effect of removal on it
If you doom blade a prime time, there are still two manlands, or valakuts, or simple mountains or forests. Did doom blade kill those, too? A terminate clears the 6/6 deathtouch, it doesnt make the 4 power in zombos cease to exist.
If you dreadbore this guy after he gets played and passed, he leaves play without having any effect whatsoever. It is if he never was. The wellspring from which he flows is choked dry, my son.
Its not a hard concept.
Yes, but the Titans are far beyond even the current concept of constructed. This thing can get CA easily, so it's not terrible. It comes down early enough for an opponent to not want to waste board presence. Later on though, it's ability does become a drawback.
Is it so bad that some creatures aren't immediate card advantage?
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
I think that whether this card will be good or not depends on how the metagame around it shapes up. Yes, Abyssal Persecutor was better in a vacuum, but it lived around the time when due to the format, Bloodbraid Elf was generally a better play for aggro decks and control decks that needed a finisher were all but non-existent.
In just raw stats, it's a 6/6 flyer for 4 mana, which is well under the curve, no matter how you look at it. The rest of the card should be thought of as a downside and the guy needs a deck that can properly deal with that downside.
That deck, if it takes off, will likely be either a BR or UBR build. Remember, on an empty board, this card simply reads "6/6 flying beatstick". People have already brought up Mutilate as a way of clearing the board. If we now get another efficient black or red sweeper (something like Pyroclasm would be very welcome), then I think we have a deck there, especially if the metagame keeps focusing on relatively small efficient creatures. And if big creatures stick around and get sacked to fend off the demon, then I'd argue you still got reasonable value out of your 4 mana, even if you don't get to attack.
A small note on the dies to removal argument. Yes, it's very true, but when bringing that up, it is important to keep the comparative mana costs in mind. If someone plays Dreadbore on this demon right on the next turn, then as a whole, they are now two mana ahead of you in the grand scheme of things. That's annoying, but hardly the end of the world, considering that this is the worst possible scenario. If they use Murder, then you just lost one mana (and either way, there's no comparative card advantage). If it lives for even one turn and then gets killed by Dreadbore, then you have either swung for 6, killed a flying blocker or forced them to sacrifice something to fend it off. In which case, the net loss for you is 2 mana and the net loss for them is something that had value.
Can't remember which post it was but kudos to the first guy who said this is absolute crap.
This card will only see play if Control vs. control matchups are all that happens in standard. First off he can be tapped on his controllers precombat phase to effectively tap him down for defense and the following attack step, so it's one creature each turn if need be not two. It's also following a set where the best deck by miles in block (losing mirridon) was tokens. Also it appears that zombies will be very prevalent post rotation and grave crawler takes a dump on this card. Against any aggro deck the card reads.
"lose you worse creature or take six." chances are that isn't good enough to beat most aggro decks. Let alone one that runs any sort of removal. Even tragic slip.
Available on turn four to kill demon -
Oring
Azorius charm works fine
Dreadbore
Tragic Slip
Murder
Plummet and every three mana plummet variant
Pacifism
Chant of the Skifsang
Victim of night
Any bounce effect.
I'm sure there are more. The fact that bad aura removal is a good answer to him should say something.
And assuming you went first, available on Turn 5 is another plethora, plus Tamiyo. I love when my opponent's play a 4 mana spell that says "Tamiyo gets +1 loyalty"
Well, I'd say the best play that we know of so far is to drop him on turn 4, and on your first main phase cast a Mutilate for 4. Then you can attack, and I'm assuming they don't have any creatures with a greater toughness than 4 at that point. And there's a 3 turn clock in a shockland format.
Looks really strong as a mid to late game finisher in a Swamp based control deck, whether that is a Rakdos, Dimir, or Grixis, or something else, who knows
He blocks everything at 4cmc and lower, so basically you have to trigger his ability if you want to swing in as he'll just block the best creature.
Even if he's a geth's verdict every turn, that's still pretty good, even against tokens and zombies. It's still 2-3 damage prevented each turn while you get your control up and going.
And Abrupt Decay isn't spell power creep? Dreadbore? Please don't fool yourself, this set is ENTIRELY a power creep.
Dreadbore is arguably worse then terminate, and Abrubt Decay is good, but not miles better than a spell like Vindicate. You're choosing the wrong examples.
He blocks everything at 4cmc and lower, so basically you have to trigger his ability if you want to swing in as he'll just block the best creature.
Even if he's a geth's verdict every turn, that's still pretty good, even against tokens and zombies. It's still 2-3 damage prevented each turn while you get your control up and going.
Yeah. It isn't a BAD card by any stretch. It may just not have a home.
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Everything is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this 666 times and you will reach enlightenment.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
Wow...
Quite some time since I last posted in the Rumor Mill... but this demon is so much "power creep" that I couldn't resist.
For 4 you have a 6/6 flying guy... Ok last time we checked we had an impressive drawback associated : "you can't win the game".
This time:
- this creature can't attack if you opponent has creatures to sack BUT it makes yours bigger... O_o
- this creature can't block if you opponent has creatures to sack BUT it makes yours bigger... O_o
How is it a real drawback?????
Even if it doesn't attack, your opponent loses creatures AND the one time yours will be able to attack it will be able to one shot!
Wow...
How about that drawback where you cant attack when you want to, you cant block when you want to, and you cant even give him trample or lifelink or fear or pro-green or vigilance.
Thought it was a really bad card when I first read it. Now I think it's just an average bad card. It could go into some control decks or a sb against certain decks. I dont see it going main unless it does so as a maybe a 2 of just for the anti creature ability. If tokens don't get any anti cards then this card wont do much until next oct.
All that said then I think about a heavy removal deck that plays this just to make an aggro player sac a card to attack. That seems to be its best use. You wont ever attack into this so you will sac your weakest guy. Looks good in that respect. I like playing him after combat. duh. They have to sac to swing, then sac to not take 7 and be able to swing. Always announce attacks even if you dont plan on swinging. Itll make them think about sacing. Rather than blocking with a flyer. I guess it could see some play in that style deck.
So what if he gets counters? Thats just gravy. But a 6/6 flyer for 4cmc is just bonkers. I think i see a nice black deck with this guy and a whole boat load of creature killing spells. I want this guy!!!
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm
Hooooly crap.
Deckbox
very much so, especially if you top deck him and he's grown a bit more. could read draw 10+ depending on how long they had to sac dudes to him.
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
If this is the worst rare, I'm quite happy. No more Wit's End, Diabolic Revelation, Captain of the Mists or Spirit Away
RGGruul Aggro
WSoul Sisters
WBTokens
BUGRRestore Balance
BMono-Black Infect
EDH:
RGWMayael, the Anima
GWURoon of the Hidden Realm
BDrana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Yes, but the Titans are far beyond even the current concept of constructed. This thing can get CA easily, so it's not terrible. It comes down early enough for an opponent to not want to waste board presence. Later on though, it's ability does become a drawback.
Is it so bad that some creatures aren't immediate card advantage?
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
In just raw stats, it's a 6/6 flyer for 4 mana, which is well under the curve, no matter how you look at it. The rest of the card should be thought of as a downside and the guy needs a deck that can properly deal with that downside.
That deck, if it takes off, will likely be either a BR or UBR build. Remember, on an empty board, this card simply reads "6/6 flying beatstick". People have already brought up Mutilate as a way of clearing the board. If we now get another efficient black or red sweeper (something like Pyroclasm would be very welcome), then I think we have a deck there, especially if the metagame keeps focusing on relatively small efficient creatures. And if big creatures stick around and get sacked to fend off the demon, then I'd argue you still got reasonable value out of your 4 mana, even if you don't get to attack.
A small note on the dies to removal argument. Yes, it's very true, but when bringing that up, it is important to keep the comparative mana costs in mind. If someone plays Dreadbore on this demon right on the next turn, then as a whole, they are now two mana ahead of you in the grand scheme of things. That's annoying, but hardly the end of the world, considering that this is the worst possible scenario. If they use Murder, then you just lost one mana (and either way, there's no comparative card advantage). If it lives for even one turn and then gets killed by Dreadbore, then you have either swung for 6, killed a flying blocker or forced them to sacrifice something to fend it off. In which case, the net loss for you is 2 mana and the net loss for them is something that had value.
And Mutilate
This card will only see play if Control vs. control matchups are all that happens in standard. First off he can be tapped on his controllers precombat phase to effectively tap him down for defense and the following attack step, so it's one creature each turn if need be not two. It's also following a set where the best deck by miles in block (losing mirridon) was tokens. Also it appears that zombies will be very prevalent post rotation and grave crawler takes a dump on this card. Against any aggro deck the card reads.
"lose you worse creature or take six." chances are that isn't good enough to beat most aggro decks. Let alone one that runs any sort of removal. Even tragic slip.
May as well be called abysmal persecutor
It's Vexing Devil all over again discussion wise.
And assuming you went first, available on Turn 5 is another plethora, plus Tamiyo. I love when my opponent's play a 4 mana spell that says "Tamiyo gets +1 loyalty"
And that's the problem.
Mafia Stats
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Given zombies/tokens are likely good decks come rotation (and match up well against him) he probably doesn't have a place in the mainboard.
But against a deck where he is strong he can come in for games 2 and 3 as a strong beater.
Probably his only hope as a standard playable.
On a side note in limited this card will be first pickable unless the format is zendikar fast.
Looks really strong as a mid to late game finisher in a Swamp based control deck, whether that is a Rakdos, Dimir, or Grixis, or something else, who knows
Looks pretty bad to me.
Also he doesn't FORCE sac, so you can't use him as a removal.
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Είμαι Άνεργος.
Grimstringer on Cockatrice, add me if you wanna
He blocks everything at 4cmc and lower, so basically you have to trigger his ability if you want to swing in as he'll just block the best creature.
Even if he's a geth's verdict every turn, that's still pretty good, even against tokens and zombies. It's still 2-3 damage prevented each turn while you get your control up and going.
Dreadbore is arguably worse then terminate, and Abrubt Decay is good, but not miles better than a spell like Vindicate. You're choosing the wrong examples.
Yeah. It isn't a BAD card by any stretch. It may just not have a home.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
How about that drawback where you cant attack when you want to, you cant block when you want to, and you cant even give him trample or lifelink or fear or pro-green or vigilance.
That would take one hell of an argument
All that said then I think about a heavy removal deck that plays this just to make an aggro player sac a card to attack. That seems to be its best use. You wont ever attack into this so you will sac your weakest guy. Looks good in that respect. I like playing him after combat. duh. They have to sac to swing, then sac to not take 7 and be able to swing. Always announce attacks even if you dont plan on swinging. Itll make them think about sacing. Rather than blocking with a flyer. I guess it could see some play in that style deck.
instants are cool -_- not really that complicated of an argument to put forth.
maybe im just scarred for life by the walletsculptor
Then you can attack with a 6/6 (or more) creature with evasion that you only spent four mana on.
Is that suddenly a bad thing?
To lightly paraphrase the past 30 pages, he is not evasive