Available on turn four to kill demon -
Oring
Azorius charm works fine
Dreadbore
Tragic Slip
Murder
Plummet and every three mana plummet variant
Pacifism
Chant of the Skifsang
Victim of night
Any bounce effect.
I'm sure there are more. The fact that bad aura removal is a good answer to him should say something.
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So worst case it's an Abyss for opponents only? seems good
Watch out, they self righteously smacking down optimism in this thread. Heck, even a post above mine is busting out the "dies to removal argument." I didn't know that it was hip to do that again.
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This guy's kind of like Vexing Devil, right? Has that been said already? You know, two good options, made less good by the fact that the opponent is the one choosing?
The card is perfectly comprehensible as is. You are one of about a thousand people to be like "GUYS IT'S AN ENCHANTMENT THAT MAKES THEM TAKE DAMAGE OR SAC A DUDE." Creature removal is common and available to some extent in every color, enchantment removal is not. Stop trying to reword the card in some bizarre attempt to make it look good. I'm not trying to wake up with a hangover.
so they either use up a quality piece of removal(few things will be able to kill this, only 4 spells can answer it so far, 2 uncommons/2 rares), or it does it's thing each turn, and maybe gets to swing or block. just cause it dies to removal doesn't make it bad. if they don't have removal thats a pretty nice deal even if it's not swinging.
I think this guy will be a staple in the meta. don't forget that there's a 4 drop 5/5 green insect and we also have shock lands. put this guy in with that 5/5 insect and it will be hard to stop both of them.
i see alot of fun decks going to be made that include this guy.
So worst case it's an Abyss for opponents only? seems good
Worst case, they choose whether The Abyss turns on. They're probably not turning it on when their only creature is Griselbrand. Oh yeah, Griselbrand outraces this guy one-on-one.
I think too many people are looking at the "sac a creature to tap and make it bigger" part as some weird kind of benefit. It's not. This guy is not better than a creature that simply reads 2bb 6/6 flying.
In the best case scenario, that's what he is. In every other scenario, he's worse. Sure, he'll be occasionally better if your opponent is an idiot, but then that's not a meaningful way to look at any card.
What surprises me most about this card is that it's not Mythic. It certainly has a Mythic feel while being most damaging in limited.
As to how much play this will see, I'm going to guess very little. When you really digest it, it becomes clear this is not a control card. Control decks don't want vanilla monsters that cannot block when you need them to. On the flip side, it's a bit expensive for anything aggressive. Probably at its best in the control vs control mirror due to clock time, low cost and fewer creatures on the other side of the board. As a result, I expect to find it most in control sideboards in competitive play.
"Dies to removal" is as valid as its ever been, indeed even more. How many 4+ cmc popular drops actually die to removal in standard? And you need to seriously contemplate what "dies to removal" means. A prime time doesnt "die" to a doom blade.
Worst case, they choose whether The Abyss turns on. They're probably not turning it on when their only creature is Griselbrand. Oh yeah, Griselbrand outraces this guy one-on-one.
This guy comes out earliest at turn 3.
Griselbrand comes out earliest at turn 5, and that's with you playing nothing but birds and other ramp spells.
Anyways, whether this fellow is good or not depends entirely on the meta. In an environment filled with aggro decks, he'll actually shine. He basically reads "You sacrifice a creature every turn and this creature gets a +1/+1, or you lose 6 life". What makes him good is the +1/+1, really. It basically means that your opponent can't just ****-out tokens and keep on saccing them to prevent hit guy from attacking. Otherwise they'd have to block it, and blocking does the exact same thing as the sacrifice ability does, minus the +1/+1.
Since you can get him out at turn 4 and hopefully you have a couple creatures out already and a couple more in your hand, the sacrifice ability is rather quite relevant.
But in an midrangey/tempo-deck environment, this guy is no good. They can just over-power or race you.
he's a 6/6 flyer that you can chump block with any creature ever. even creatures that can't block.
i mean, i dunno, he's still pretty good. his stats are at like +3/+3 over curve, and his drawback isn't really that bad, unless your opponent is playing gravecrawlers or tokens.
you'll still get in there for 6 or force an opponent to sac a relevant creature a reasonable amount of the time. worse than abyssal persecutor, but persecutor was amazing.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft. It stinks more than pretty much anything in recent memory. Dont mistake this as an abyssal persecutor, which was just too impotent to see play, with a mostly inconsequential drawback- this cards drawback makes Lord of the Pit look friendly. Were talking about a sitting duck that does nothing but attack and block yet can neither attack nor block when you want him to.
Reason being that if it is good for you to attack it will attack, if it is bad for you to attack it will be tapped and "chump blocked." It can block flyers, but that isn't likely to ever happen.
So what decks does this card go into? Seems alright in aggro. Would be alright with Jarad as a one of. Other than that, I don't think he is that special, and doesn't make too many decks that much better. (Especially if there is a token heavy theme in Ravnica).
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft. It stinks more than pretty much anything in recent memory. Dont mistake this as an abyssal persecutor, which was just too impotent to see play, with a mostly inconsequential drawback- this cards drawback makes Lord of the Pit look friendly. Were talking about a sitting duck that does nothing but attack and block yet can neither attack nor block when you want him to.
This thing is an absolute crusher in limited. Pass them to me please. Pretty please?
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I think too many people are looking at the "sac a creature to tap and make it bigger" part as some weird kind of benefit. It's not. This guy is not better than a creature that simply reads 2bb 6/6 flying.
Actually, at its best you can grow it yourself on your opponent's combat phase by sacrificing a creature yourself.
Welp, And here I was thinking that Titans were "prime time" but I guess only Grave Titan is? And for that matter, this demon doesn't die to it either...
Dude, are you feeling ok? I mean you are known for making hyperbolic, disruptive, opinionated and contrarian statements all the time but at least most times you have some inkling of logic underneath. Today you are just spouting self-embarrasing non sense. I guess this guy somehow really rubs you the wrong way something fierce.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
he's a 6/6 flyer that you can chump block with any creature ever. even creatures that can't block.
so? a good number of creatures in limited can be blocked all day long as well. at least this guy gets some benefit whenever they don't use a flier, and can't be walled, barring a flying wall being printed.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
Welp, And here I was thinking that Titans were "prime time" but I guess only Grave Titan is? And for that matter, this demon doesn't die to it either...
Dude, are you feeling ok? I mean you are known for making hyperbolic, disruptive, opinionated and contrarian statements all the time but at least most times you have some inkling of logic underneath. Today you are just spouting self-embarrasing non sense. I guess this guy somehow really rubs you the wrong way something fierce.
Like I said, primeval titan does not "die" to doom blade. Nor can you simply terminate the grave titan. The fact you dont understand what Im saying is the exact same reason you are overvaluing this dreadful card and dismissing the effect of removal on it
If you doom blade a prime time, there are still two manlands, or valakuts, or simple mountains or forests. Did doom blade kill those, too? A terminate clears the 6/6 deathtouch, it doesnt make the 4 power in zombos cease to exist.
If you dreadbore this guy after he gets played and passed, he leaves play without having any effect whatsoever. It is if he never was. The wellspring from which he flows is choked dry, my son.
Actually, at its best you can grow it yourself on your opponent's combat phase by sacrificing a creature yourself.
Welp, And here I was thinking that Titans were "prime time" but I guess only Grave Titan is? And for that matter, this demon doesn't die to it either...
Dude, are you feeling ok? I mean you are known for making hyperbolic, disruptive, opinionated and contrarian statements all the time but at least most times you have some inkling of logic underneath. Today you are just spouting self-embarrasing non sense. I guess this guy somehow really rubs you the wrong way something fierce.
prime time is not just any titan, it specifically references primeval titan. What he was saying is yes you can kill it with a doom blade, but you have gotten a good amount of benefit from it already because of its etb effect, and espescially if it can attack.
This guy's kind of like Vexing Devil, right? Has that been said already? You know, two good options, made less good by the fact that the opponent is the one choosing?
Except the 4 life option on Vexing Devil leaves you down a card, while the creature sac option on the Demon leaves your opponent down a card with you still having an Abyss sitting on the table
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Oring
Azorius charm works fine
Dreadbore
Tragic Slip
Murder
Plummet and every three mana plummet variant
Pacifism
Chant of the Skifsang
Victim of night
Any bounce effect.
I'm sure there are more. The fact that bad aura removal is a good answer to him should say something.
Twitter
Watch out, they self righteously smacking down optimism in this thread. Heck, even a post above mine is busting out the "dies to removal argument." I didn't know that it was hip to do that again.
Feel free to tell me yours!
Worst case you play a beater onto an empty board that remains empty
so they either use up a quality piece of removal(few things will be able to kill this, only 4 spells can answer it so far, 2 uncommons/2 rares), or it does it's thing each turn, and maybe gets to swing or block. just cause it dies to removal doesn't make it bad. if they don't have removal thats a pretty nice deal even if it's not swinging.
i see alot of fun decks going to be made that include this guy.
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Worst case, they choose whether The Abyss turns on. They're probably not turning it on when their only creature is Griselbrand. Oh yeah, Griselbrand outraces this guy one-on-one.
EDIT: Wow, I'm responding to several posts about a card I don't even have strong feelings about...that's my cue to turn in for the night.
In the best case scenario, that's what he is. In every other scenario, he's worse. Sure, he'll be occasionally better if your opponent is an idiot, but then that's not a meaningful way to look at any card.
What surprises me most about this card is that it's not Mythic. It certainly has a Mythic feel while being most damaging in limited.
As to how much play this will see, I'm going to guess very little. When you really digest it, it becomes clear this is not a control card. Control decks don't want vanilla monsters that cannot block when you need them to. On the flip side, it's a bit expensive for anything aggressive. Probably at its best in the control vs control mirror due to clock time, low cost and fewer creatures on the other side of the board. As a result, I expect to find it most in control sideboards in competitive play.
This guy comes out earliest at turn 3.
Griselbrand comes out earliest at turn 5, and that's with you playing nothing but birds and other ramp spells.
Anyways, whether this fellow is good or not depends entirely on the meta. In an environment filled with aggro decks, he'll actually shine. He basically reads "You sacrifice a creature every turn and this creature gets a +1/+1, or you lose 6 life". What makes him good is the +1/+1, really. It basically means that your opponent can't just ****-out tokens and keep on saccing them to prevent hit guy from attacking. Otherwise they'd have to block it, and blocking does the exact same thing as the sacrifice ability does, minus the +1/+1.
Since you can get him out at turn 4 and hopefully you have a couple creatures out already and a couple more in your hand, the sacrifice ability is rather quite relevant.
But in an midrangey/tempo-deck environment, this guy is no good. They can just over-power or race you.
i mean, i dunno, he's still pretty good. his stats are at like +3/+3 over curve, and his drawback isn't really that bad, unless your opponent is playing gravecrawlers or tokens.
you'll still get in there for 6 or force an opponent to sac a relevant creature a reasonable amount of the time. worse than abyssal persecutor, but persecutor was amazing.
2BB
attacks each turn if able.
Reach.
6/6.
Reason being that if it is good for you to attack it will attack, if it is bad for you to attack it will be tapped and "chump blocked." It can block flyers, but that isn't likely to ever happen.
So what decks does this card go into? Seems alright in aggro. Would be alright with Jarad as a one of. Other than that, I don't think he is that special, and doesn't make too many decks that much better. (Especially if there is a token heavy theme in Ravnica).
This thing is an absolute crusher in limited. Pass them to me please. Pretty please?
Feel free to tell me yours!
Actually, at its best you can grow it yourself on your opponent's combat phase by sacrificing a creature yourself.
Welp, And here I was thinking that Titans were "prime time" but I guess only Grave Titan is? And for that matter, this demon doesn't die to it either...
Dude, are you feeling ok? I mean you are known for making hyperbolic, disruptive, opinionated and contrarian statements all the time but at least most times you have some inkling of logic underneath. Today you are just spouting self-embarrasing non sense. I guess this guy somehow really rubs you the wrong way something fierce.
C'mon man. We're trying to defend this card. Make sure you get the rules text right.
Feel free to tell me yours!
so? a good number of creatures in limited can be blocked all day long as well. at least this guy gets some benefit whenever they don't use a flier, and can't be walled, barring a flying wall being printed.
Ooops, yeah. Missed the "opponent" clause.
Like I said, primeval titan does not "die" to doom blade. Nor can you simply terminate the grave titan. The fact you dont understand what Im saying is the exact same reason you are overvaluing this dreadful card and dismissing the effect of removal on it
If you doom blade a prime time, there are still two manlands, or valakuts, or simple mountains or forests. Did doom blade kill those, too? A terminate clears the 6/6 deathtouch, it doesnt make the 4 power in zombos cease to exist.
If you dreadbore this guy after he gets played and passed, he leaves play without having any effect whatsoever. It is if he never was. The wellspring from which he flows is choked dry, my son.
Its not a hard concept.
prime time is not just any titan, it specifically references primeval titan. What he was saying is yes you can kill it with a doom blade, but you have gotten a good amount of benefit from it already because of its etb effect, and espescially if it can attack.
Except the 4 life option on Vexing Devil leaves you down a card, while the creature sac option on the Demon leaves your opponent down a card with you still having an Abyss sitting on the table