People are also forgetting we're seeing a couple of cards that will let you wipe their boards and keep him alive (Bonfire, Curse, the new Izzet card). Hell, drop him after a wrath effect and they need to drop dudes fast or get clonked.
Now you are just being facetious. This guy is bonkers. I don't honestly care if my opponent is stopping me from attack or blocking with this guy, since they are SACRIFICING CREATURES and pumping him to boot to do it. This guy is very strong and has great cards to back him up in a deck with the same colors. You seriously think that your opponent(short of a token spam deck) is going to have enough creatures to stop this guy from beating your face to a pulp? One of the best things about this guy is his inevitability. Sure, you can stop him from attacking, but you lose guys and he gets bigger. Eventually, he's going to kick your teeth in.
They have to SACRIFICE a creature to tap him down. This is not optimal for most decks. You guys are treating it like it can't block at all.
Think of it this way, I'm running a Zombie deck (Which is running very popularly right now), you drop that thing on turn four. Turn 5 rolls round and you're ready to attack, that's fine because I'll just sac my gravecrawller, or a diregraf ghoul (which comes in tapped making him useless anyway) to tap him. Now you place your +1/+1 counter on him, but it does little good because he's just been tragic slipped, and my blood artist causes you to lose a life.
Or better yet, you drop the demon, and I simply cast Bone Splinters, sac my Gravecrawler and destroy the demon. Or I sac my undying Geralf's Messenger, you demon dies and you take 3 life.
In both scenarios I get the Gravecrawler back btw.
It's a decent card in limited as there's not a lot of what I described going on. However in constructed, as someone else mentioned above, he has the same issue as Vexing Devil. Both are good, until you realize that he's solely dependent upon your opponent's choices. It's never a good thing when you give your opponents a choice on what to do with your creatures/spells. Yet, in it's defense, a 4/4 for 6 does make your opponent go "Well...I have to deal with this somehow or I'm about to get face smashed." and THAT I DO like.
Gravecrawler has been mentioned a lot on this thread. Can we agree that yes, that specific card in that specific deck is an extremely effective counter? There have to be other arguments worth making.
the best comparison for this guy in limited would be a juggernaut creature.
That's a great comparison. Furthermore, it didn't need enchantments, equipments or be able to block to be good, and neither would the demon in limited. Not dying to random artifact removal is pretty important in limited too.
This card will be the worst rare in RTR and less remembered than skaab ruibator in three months. It struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls, even in limited.
That its not simply "not good enough for competitive", or underpowered. But that this is offensively bad, the real stinker tier.
Still, my best evaluation is that its approximately on the same power level as a 4/4 for 4 vanilla beater.
The crux is: if this guy is only good if your opponent has no creatures, that doesn't make it good. Cards need to do more than that to be constructed playable.
You can't hope for ideal situations on cards like these.
This card is not reliable at all, and there are plenty of cards that do better things for four mana.
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Gravecrawler has been mentioned a lot on this thread. Can we agree that yes, that specific card in that specific deck is an extremely effective counter? There have to be other arguments worth making.
I think it's a pretty relevant point that a 1-drop in the best deck likely to survive rotation is a total wall to this card.
Gravecrawler has been mentioned a lot on this thread. Can we agree that yes, that specific card in that specific deck is an extremely effective counter? There have to be other arguments worth making.
People keep mentioning it and tokens because they are very likely to be the top decks after rotation. It's not that the card doesn't have potential. His problem is that he just doesn't fit well in the meta. Certain decks may still run him but they probably won't be top tier. Something like Falkenrath Aristocrat is just so much better in an aggro deck and jarad is just a stronger 4 drop in general. I can see the demon in a mono black deck but not much else.
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I have to say at first I thought this card was going to be good but after some more thought I don't think this is even see much play. It's basically a vanilla 6/6 for 4 that says if you block with a non-flying creates it gets +1/+1. I'd rather just have a 4/4 for that was unblockable. Also if you don't attack I can sacrifice a creature to tap you down so I can let my creature get through. Tokens and Zombies are very prevalent decks in the meta and this card is just bad against them. It seems like the ultimate 'win more' kind of a card. It'll on help you out if you are already ahead.
I think we'd all like a 4/4 for four mana that is unblockable. I'd like to throw hexproof down too. And let's make it two mana and red since we're wishing anyway.
Anyways, fair points all. This definitely seems like a bad card against zombies. I will also add that it makes me a little sad Vapor Snag is rotating. This definitely seems like a satisfying target for bounce.
This creature looks fine to me. Four mana, and he starts becoming a threat disproportionate to other four drops. He needs to be answered.
We can all sit here and act like saccing creatures is no big deal, or taking 6+ hits to the dome is no big deal, but at the end of the day the deck he's destined for will want both.
Sure but is anyone really THAT happy to be main decking Unsummon? That being said, some form of Izzit/Azorius bounce will almost certainly be somewhere in the set.
And while I recognize the card's problems, isn't be a bit aggressively cost for a win-more card? Especially since the decks that would possibly want him seem like they'd be more controlling in nature. If anything he's more of a threatening stall card.
The thing that I would keep in mind is that you can never just assume that he can block. And if they are going to alpha strike that turn, they will probably be willing to sacrifice a creature to smash through.
That is absolutely a fact. If you are staring down the barrel of a loss and have one draw left, this is not ever the card you want to draw. That is definitely a point worth making.
It's good if you can clear their board. It's basically a two-card combo with Mutilate or bonfire of the damned. I can see him being strong only in a deck with a lot of sweepers.
I keep saying this.
Rakdos is shaping into a very mean control deck that is basically mono-black with a splash of red for things like Rakdos Returns, Slaughter Games, Dreadbore and whatever else they release.
People will under-estimate it but it's going to be a force.
Are there any otherwise overlooked morbid cards that might merit a second glance from this card? You were always able to sacrifice your own creatures to force the effect, but it seems like making your opponent do it instead would be better.
Probably too cute of an idea to be of any real worth though.
Are there any otherwise overlooked morbid cards that might merit a second glance from this card? You were always able to sacrifice your own creatures to force the effect, but it seems like making your opponent do it instead would be better.
Probably too cute of an idea to be of any real worth though.
It's not Morbid... but Harvester of Souls offers you some bonus.
But as many will note it's definitely more of a 'cute' way to gain advantage form a mechanic that isn't THAT great to begin with.
All it really does is make the choice mildly more painful.
Not perfect, but I think he'll see play.
He passes the Abrupt Decay test!
Be prepared for the new test that every card must face.
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i think just about every finisher control plays will pass this test.
So does Skyline Predator. OBVIOUSLY POWERFUL
Standard: W/R Aggro
Now you are just being facetious. This guy is bonkers. I don't honestly care if my opponent is stopping me from attack or blocking with this guy, since they are SACRIFICING CREATURES and pumping him to boot to do it. This guy is very strong and has great cards to back him up in a deck with the same colors. You seriously think that your opponent(short of a token spam deck) is going to have enough creatures to stop this guy from beating your face to a pulp? One of the best things about this guy is his inevitability. Sure, you can stop him from attacking, but you lose guys and he gets bigger. Eventually, he's going to kick your teeth in.
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Think of it this way, I'm running a Zombie deck (Which is running very popularly right now), you drop that thing on turn four. Turn 5 rolls round and you're ready to attack, that's fine because I'll just sac my gravecrawller, or a diregraf ghoul (which comes in tapped making him useless anyway) to tap him. Now you place your +1/+1 counter on him, but it does little good because he's just been tragic slipped, and my blood artist causes you to lose a life.
Or better yet, you drop the demon, and I simply cast Bone Splinters, sac my Gravecrawler and destroy the demon. Or I sac my undying Geralf's Messenger, you demon dies and you take 3 life.
In both scenarios I get the Gravecrawler back btw.
It's a decent card in limited as there's not a lot of what I described going on. However in constructed, as someone else mentioned above, he has the same issue as Vexing Devil. Both are good, until you realize that he's solely dependent upon your opponent's choices. It's never a good thing when you give your opponents a choice on what to do with your creatures/spells. Yet, in it's defense, a 4/4 for 6 does make your opponent go "Well...I have to deal with this somehow or I'm about to get face smashed." and THAT I DO like.
That's a great comparison. Furthermore, it didn't need enchantments, equipments or be able to block to be good, and neither would the demon in limited. Not dying to random artifact removal is pretty important in limited too.
The crux is: if this guy is only good if your opponent has no creatures, that doesn't make it good. Cards need to do more than that to be constructed playable.
You can't hope for ideal situations on cards like these.
This card is not reliable at all, and there are plenty of cards that do better things for four mana.
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I think it's a pretty relevant point that a 1-drop in the best deck likely to survive rotation is a total wall to this card.
Standard: W/R Aggro
People keep mentioning it and tokens because they are very likely to be the top decks after rotation. It's not that the card doesn't have potential. His problem is that he just doesn't fit well in the meta. Certain decks may still run him but they probably won't be top tier. Something like Falkenrath Aristocrat is just so much better in an aggro deck and jarad is just a stronger 4 drop in general. I can see the demon in a mono black deck but not much else.
or god forbid a 13/13 for 1!
Anyways, fair points all. This definitely seems like a bad card against zombies. I will also add that it makes me a little sad Vapor Snag is rotating. This definitely seems like a satisfying target for bounce.
This dude obviously isn't main deck able. But if i'm playing against any midrange or control deck, I will totally bring this dude in
We can all sit here and act like saccing creatures is no big deal, or taking 6+ hits to the dome is no big deal, but at the end of the day the deck he's destined for will want both.
And while I recognize the card's problems, isn't be a bit aggressively cost for a win-more card? Especially since the decks that would possibly want him seem like they'd be more controlling in nature. If anything he's more of a threatening stall card.
I keep saying this.
Rakdos is shaping into a very mean control deck that is basically mono-black with a splash of red for things like Rakdos Returns, Slaughter Games, Dreadbore and whatever else they release.
People will under-estimate it but it's going to be a force.
Maybe a Skirsdag High Priest or something as well.
It's a bit daunting to look at without a board wipe in hand.
(or I guess, any other solution. Of which there are many).
Perhaps Rakdos (big papa demon himself) will offer something for him.
Probably too cute of an idea to be of any real worth though.
It's not Morbid... but Harvester of Souls offers you some bonus.
But as many will note it's definitely more of a 'cute' way to gain advantage form a mechanic that isn't THAT great to begin with.
All it really does is make the choice mildly more painful.
A casual demon deck? Haha.
You're right. He's better.