If you have to force a default play condition for Cavern of Souls it should reflect what a reasonable person would do by default, however I would rather see a game rewound to the point of declaration if there is a fuss of which ability it was tapped for. It is the responsibility of both/all players to manage the game state properly.
Your Hinterland Harbor argument doesn't though. They tapped for mana to cast said spell. There is only one option that allows them to cast said spell. It's obviously said option. Cavern is different in that a player could reasonably want thier spell to be counterable. The choice isn't so cut and dry.
Edit/ To bait a counterspell so they can cast thier planeswalker. When the default was the other way around this was possible, but no good player would fall for that now. It's obvious when a player taps for ccolorless that something is up.
I agree completely that the situations aren't exactly alike based on the previous ruling, but the argument about ambiguity is what is important. You don't need to announce something unless there is ambiguity involved. The new default rule makes Cavern similar to Hinterland by assuming people tap correctly when there is no ambiguity. This is the way the card should have been printed, and they have said as much.
This change is more of an errata than a straight rules change. They are trying to make the card play as it was intended to play, and by doing so they made the card similar to any other land with a single ability, such as duals.
- we make this ruling even if it breaks with current philosophy.
Intuition is subjective, philosophy is not.
In times of radical IPG-changes to the better of organized play I cannot bring myself to criticize WotC for this latest ruling. Leave WotC the space and time to move organized play out of the subjectivity there is/was and into full objectivity rules wise.
In the interests of fairness, that's not quite true. While you can spend it on a colourless cost (as you can with all coloured mana), you still have to make the coloured mana, because making a colourless mana that grants the uncounterable ability isn't a legal play, excepting the corner case of using the Cavern in an EDH deck with a colourless general.
Don't you feel that you are quoting rules that don't change the argument. The scenario seems a bit absurd to begin with. I announce that I am producing blue mana from my CoS named dragon to cast my Red Shivan dragon. Naming the color of the mana feels extremely redundant and unnecessary. Redundancy is not good for the game and most especially not for the tournaments where extra time spent on redundancy can mean draws and draws can mean missing the cut.
I fully believe that the R&D department tested the card in a friendly environment where everyone understood the intended card effect on the game. An environment bereft of the rules lawyers who enjoy winning due to someone else's rules error or misunderstanding. Every LGS has a person or two like this though, and WotC has to consider them as much as everyone else in the long run--unfortunately they must.
And why does this deserve an errata out of there hundreds of mistakes?
Because this was not a power level mistake, but a templating mistake. The card was designed and developed to work a certain way. The card, as the rules stood at PT Barca, did not work the way it was intended to work, and did so in an unintuitive way. Therefore, there had to be a fix.
@Everybody saying "but you could want your spell to be counterable to bait a counterspell": Have you really imagined how that situation would be like?
"I cast Snapcaster Mage with a blue mana produced from an Island and a colorless mana produced from my Cavern of Souls that named Humans. I'm totally not trying to bait a counterspell, I just randomly dediced to make it counterable just because."
And not, that doesn't even make your opponent not counter it especting a bait: if you wanted it not to be countered, you just make it uncounterable with CoS.
The baiting example I brought up earlier was valid. Under the new rules it's nigh impossible to bait.
Old ruling: I tap cavern and island to cast snappy. Opponent counters because I didn't declare which ability I used.
New ruling: I tap my cavern for colorless and and my island and cast snappy. Opponent looks at me like Im an idiot and then realizes I'm trying to bait a counter so I can cast doom blade successfully.
The new rule has an actual effect on gameplay by REDUCING the power of cavern.
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The baiting example I brought up earlier was valid. Under the new rules it's nigh impossible to bait.
Old ruling: I tap cavern and island to cast snappy. Opponent counters because I didn't declare which ability I used.
New ruling: I tap my cavern for colorless and and my island and cast snappy. Opponent looks at me like Im an idiot and then realizes I'm trying to bait a counter so I can cast doom blade successfully.
The new rule has an actual effect on gameplay by REDUCING the power of cavern.
Actually, under the old ruling, you were asumed to have used the colorless mana ability, as explained in the OP.
Actually, under the old ruling, you were asumed to have used the colorless mana ability, as explained in the OP.
That is EXACTLY what I wrote. Exactly. My point is that I now have to declare that I am using the option that is only used for baiting and other mind games making it less powerful.
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The baiting example I brought up earlier was valid. Under the new rules it's nigh impossible to bait.
Old ruling: I tap cavern and island to cast snappy. Opponent counters because I didn't declare which ability I used.
New ruling: I tap my cavern for colorless and and my island and cast snappy. Opponent looks at me like Im an idiot and then realizes I'm trying to bait a counter so I can cast doom blade successfully.
The new rule has an actual effect on gameplay by REDUCING the power of cavern.
So now we're complaining about reducing the power level? So many arguments from that side of the aisle.
The real point is, that's all irrelevant. The card now works the way it was designed and developed to work. Deal with it.
So now we're complaining about reducing the power level? So many arguments from that side of the aisle.
The real point is, that's all irrelevant. The card now works the way it was designed and developed to work. Deal with it.
Im going to deal with it. I dealt with lots of things wizards put out becuase they put out things i do like. But that is besides the point, becuase we all know are comments here wont change anything. We are just commenting on the rules change and discussing the pros and cons. If you think that we shouldn't, then I think. You are, issing the point of a forum, and the thread specifically for said discussion.
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If you want to bait a counter with a snappy just tap 2 lands that are NOT cavern, there problem solved! Also, pretend like you goofed up.
I don't think the "Oh no, with the new ruling I can't bait a counterspell on turn 2 when I only have 2 lands in play when I want to do so using a 2 drop creature whose creature type I accidentally named with my cavern" argument comes into play. A liiiiittle bit contrived if you ask me
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N/A
Modern:
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The kind of players that get abused by not announcing using cavern of souls are the kind of players that miss their shrine triggers or their werewolf triggers.
I think a split between regular REL and competitive/professional REL of this ruling would be best. All the casuals can play at FNM as if its a kitchen table game and you assume your opponent will always make the best play, and competitive players can use cavern to it's full extent (i.e. baiting, leveling your opponent by convincing them you want whatever you are casting to get countered because you are representing another card in hand).
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To post on this forum you must...
1. Have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
2. Stubbornly argue for at least 1 page of posts.
3. Regurgitate things you read on Starcitygames or Channelfireball.
4. Hate all netdeckers
5. Claim your 2nd place FNM deck broke the format and Delver is not even that good.
6. Tell everybody that MBC is coming back every time a new black card is released.
If you want to bait a counter with a snappy just tap 2 lands that are NOT cavern, there problem solved! Also, pretend like you goofed up.
I don't think the "Oh no, with the new ruling I can't bait a counterspell on turn 2 when I only have 2 lands in play when I want to do so using a 2 drop creature whose creature type I accidentally named with my cavern" argument comes into play. A liiiiittle bit contrived if you ask me
Your mana is Island, Island, Cavern. You need to cast vapor snag to stop some architect trickery before it costs you the game, but you are sure their two open mana is backed by a leak, so you need to bait the counter. You cast Phantasmal Image with cavern and island as a copy of architect. This is a counter worthy play because it could be used to power out a batterskull. So they counter it, and you can no safely snag the creature, buyimg enough time to win. It would have been too obvious under the new rules. There is also no other way to distribute the lands, as vapor snag has no colorless component.
The kind of players that get abused by not announcing using cavern of souls are the kind of players that miss their shrine triggers or their werewolf triggers.
I think a split between regular REL and competitive/professional REL of this ruling would be best. All the casuals can play at FNM as if its a kitchen table game and you assume your opponent will always make the best play, and competitive players can use cavern to it's full extent (i.e. baiting, leveling your opponent by convincing them you want whatever you are casting to get countered because you are representing another card in hand).
I agree with this solution. It was actually the way it was at my local shop before, and no one complained. Everyone wins.
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Your mana is Island, Island, Cavern. You need to cast vapor snag to stop some architect trickery before it costs you the game, but you are sure their two open mana is backed by a leak, so you need to bait the counter. You cast Phantasmal Image with cavern and island as a copy of architect. This is a counter worthy play because it could be used to power out a batterskull. So they counter it, and you can no safely snag the creature, buyimg enough time to win. It would have been too obvious under the new rules. There is also no other way to distribute the lands, as vapor snag has no colorless component.
So don't name Human with your cavern. Or do you desperately need it in the future to cast your creature cards because you can't play around mana leak?
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Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
So don't name Human with your cavern. Or do you desperately need it in the future to cast your creature cards because you can't play around mana leak?
It was a counter to the post before mine that said to just use different lands to cast your creature to bait the counterspell. My point is that you don't always have different lands to play the spell and still bait a counter.
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Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Hey guys, he's explaining, that "making an fake mistake" was better as it is now.
BECAUSE to forget to name the "specific creature type" seems/looks more like a mistake to force a counter spell compared to "i'll tap CoS for colourless"...
I see the point but I actually don't care. There are still more "pokerface" scenes in the game without this CoS-abusing
It was a counter to the post before mine that said to just use different lands to cast your creature to bait the counterspell. My point is that you don't always have different lands to play the spell and still bait a counter.
Then perhaps you should play fewer Caverns.
If a player routinely uses its ability to protect his creature spells, the one time when he doesn't is going to look suspicious. I have a hard time believing that tournament players spend so much time baiting counterspells when they are implicitly representing, by controlling an appropriate Cavern of Souls, the ability to make their spells uncounterable.
NotMyName, you seem to be in favor of baiting counters using the colorless mana from Cavern of Souls. Do you want your opponents to counter your spell because they misjudge its value, or because they think you would play the land in your deck and then accidentally forget to use its ability?
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Commander DecksUB Sygg - Stream of Answers UBGWU Phelddagrif - Hugs and Handshakes GWURW Gisela - Firebender RWB Endrek - Correct! 6,000 Thrulls BBU Wrexial - Wrist Deep In Your Graveyard BUGW Trostani - My Wife's Deck GWBR Lyzolda - Chaos Hug BR
WUBRG Reaper King - The Trouble With Tribals WUBRG
This is how I always thought it should work but i didn't have a hard time with the rule the way it was. Its a easy rule to remember but whetevs now its even easier.
When you tap your island do you specify that you are tapping for Blue mana? When you tap 6 lands for Wurmcoil Engine do you specify what colors you tapped for? How frequently do you specify exactly how you are tapping your mana to pay for a spell? It's almost always either you tapepd such that a correct way exists, or you didn't. There isn't a reason to want to tap Cavern of Souls for colorless when you could use the second ability. The person knew the 2nd ability was there and intended to use it. Why should they have to waste time to do something that obvious? Trying to "catch" your opponent with rules lawyering isn't meant to be how you play the game. There is a difference between a player not performing a trigger and a player making actions without spelling them out to you letter by letter.
Thank you. More players like this please. It's a game people - please remember that.
NotMyName, you seem to be in favor of baiting counters using the colorless mana from Cavern of Souls. Do you want your opponents to counter your spell because they misjudge its value, or because they think you would play the land in your deck and then accidentally forget to use its ability?
Whoa. What do you do if, say, you reveal a mana leak (with delver) and your opponent with caverns knowingly plays a creature without making it uncounterable? Do you NOT counter it because it's an obvious ploy? I think that's the correct logic... which means that he can cast any creature (of the named type) without tapping caverns and the correct play for you is to hang onto your counterspell. Strange.
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Whoa. What do you do if, say, you reveal a mana leak (with delver) and your opponent with caverns knowingly plays a creature without making it uncounterable? Do you NOT counter it because it's an obvious ploy? I think that's the correct logic... which means that he can cast any creature (of the named type) without tapping caverns and the correct play for you is to hang onto your counterspell. Strange.
That's the way I see it, too. Under the previous ruling, the only reasons to tap Caverns for colorless on a spell of the named type were: #1--You'd like a counterspell to be used on the card, and #2--You forgot to specify you were tapping for colored. The new ruling prevents #2. Apparently there was a subset of people who would pretend to forget that Cavern of Souls was in play so that their opponent would try to take advantage of their (unrealistic) mistake and counter their creature, when they wanted it to be countered all along.
It's a convoluted scheme and I'm skeptical that it happened often.
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Commander DecksUB Sygg - Stream of Answers UBGWU Phelddagrif - Hugs and Handshakes GWURW Gisela - Firebender RWB Endrek - Correct! 6,000 Thrulls BBU Wrexial - Wrist Deep In Your Graveyard BUGW Trostani - My Wife's Deck GWBR Lyzolda - Chaos Hug BR
WUBRG Reaper King - The Trouble With Tribals WUBRG
The baiting example I brought up earlier was valid. Under the new rules it's nigh impossible to bait.
Old ruling: I tap cavern and island to cast snappy. Opponent counters because I didn't declare which ability I used.
New ruling: I tap my cavern for colorless and and my island and cast snappy. Opponent looks at me like Im an idiot and then realizes I'm trying to bait a counter so I can cast doom blade successfully.
The new rule has an actual effect on gameplay by REDUCING the power of cavern.
You're right, but should it ever have been able to "bait" in the first place?
If the "default" assumption is wrong 99% of the time, I'd say it's the wrong assumption.
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If the Vikings were around today, they would probably be amazed at how much glow-in-the-dark stuff we have, and how we take it for granted.
STCCG 1E Collection
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I agree completely that the situations aren't exactly alike based on the previous ruling, but the argument about ambiguity is what is important. You don't need to announce something unless there is ambiguity involved. The new default rule makes Cavern similar to Hinterland by assuming people tap correctly when there is no ambiguity. This is the way the card should have been printed, and they have said as much.
This change is more of an errata than a straight rules change. They are trying to make the card play as it was intended to play, and by doing so they made the card similar to any other land with a single ability, such as duals.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Intuition is subjective, philosophy is not.
In times of radical IPG-changes to the better of organized play I cannot bring myself to criticize WotC for this latest ruling. Leave WotC the space and time to move organized play out of the subjectivity there is/was and into full objectivity rules wise.
Noah Weil on scouting, an attorney from Seattle with 20 Pro Tour appearances.
Don't you feel that you are quoting rules that don't change the argument. The scenario seems a bit absurd to begin with. I announce that I am producing blue mana from my CoS named dragon to cast my Red Shivan dragon. Naming the color of the mana feels extremely redundant and unnecessary. Redundancy is not good for the game and most especially not for the tournaments where extra time spent on redundancy can mean draws and draws can mean missing the cut.
I fully believe that the R&D department tested the card in a friendly environment where everyone understood the intended card effect on the game. An environment bereft of the rules lawyers who enjoy winning due to someone else's rules error or misunderstanding. Every LGS has a person or two like this though, and WotC has to consider them as much as everyone else in the long run--unfortunately they must.
Because this was not a power level mistake, but a templating mistake. The card was designed and developed to work a certain way. The card, as the rules stood at PT Barca, did not work the way it was intended to work, and did so in an unintuitive way. Therefore, there had to be a fix.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
"I cast Snapcaster Mage with a blue mana produced from an Island and a colorless mana produced from my Cavern of Souls that named Humans. I'm totally not trying to bait a counterspell, I just randomly dediced to make it counterable just because."
And not, that doesn't even make your opponent not counter it especting a bait: if you wanted it not to be countered, you just make it uncounterable with CoS.
Old ruling: I tap cavern and island to cast snappy. Opponent counters because I didn't declare which ability I used.
New ruling: I tap my cavern for colorless and and my island and cast snappy. Opponent looks at me like Im an idiot and then realizes I'm trying to bait a counter so I can cast doom blade successfully.
The new rule has an actual effect on gameplay by REDUCING the power of cavern.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Actually, under the old ruling, you were asumed to have used the colorless mana ability, as explained in the OP.
That is EXACTLY what I wrote. Exactly. My point is that I now have to declare that I am using the option that is only used for baiting and other mind games making it less powerful.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
So now we're complaining about reducing the power level? So many arguments from that side of the aisle.
The real point is, that's all irrelevant. The card now works the way it was designed and developed to work. Deal with it.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Im going to deal with it. I dealt with lots of things wizards put out becuase they put out things i do like. But that is besides the point, becuase we all know are comments here wont change anything. We are just commenting on the rules change and discussing the pros and cons. If you think that we shouldn't, then I think. You are, issing the point of a forum, and the thread specifically for said discussion.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
I don't think the "Oh no, with the new ruling I can't bait a counterspell on turn 2 when I only have 2 lands in play when I want to do so using a 2 drop creature whose creature type I accidentally named with my cavern" argument comes into play. A liiiiittle bit contrived if you ask me
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
I think a split between regular REL and competitive/professional REL of this ruling would be best. All the casuals can play at FNM as if its a kitchen table game and you assume your opponent will always make the best play, and competitive players can use cavern to it's full extent (i.e. baiting, leveling your opponent by convincing them you want whatever you are casting to get countered because you are representing another card in hand).
1. Have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
2. Stubbornly argue for at least 1 page of posts.
3. Regurgitate things you read on Starcitygames or Channelfireball.
4. Hate all netdeckers
5. Claim your 2nd place FNM deck broke the format and Delver is not even that good.
6. Tell everybody that MBC is coming back every time a new black card is released.
Your mana is Island, Island, Cavern. You need to cast vapor snag to stop some architect trickery before it costs you the game, but you are sure their two open mana is backed by a leak, so you need to bait the counter. You cast Phantasmal Image with cavern and island as a copy of architect. This is a counter worthy play because it could be used to power out a batterskull. So they counter it, and you can no safely snag the creature, buyimg enough time to win. It would have been too obvious under the new rules. There is also no other way to distribute the lands, as vapor snag has no colorless component.
I agree with this solution. It was actually the way it was at my local shop before, and no one complained. Everyone wins.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
So don't name Human with your cavern. Or do you desperately need it in the future to cast your creature cards because you can't play around mana leak?
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
It was a counter to the post before mine that said to just use different lands to cast your creature to bait the counterspell. My point is that you don't always have different lands to play the spell and still bait a counter.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
BECAUSE to forget to name the "specific creature type" seems/looks more like a mistake to force a counter spell compared to "i'll tap CoS for colourless"...
I see the point but I actually don't care. There are still more "pokerface" scenes in the game without this CoS-abusing
Then perhaps you should play fewer Caverns.
If a player routinely uses its ability to protect his creature spells, the one time when he doesn't is going to look suspicious. I have a hard time believing that tournament players spend so much time baiting counterspells when they are implicitly representing, by controlling an appropriate Cavern of Souls, the ability to make their spells uncounterable.
NotMyName, you seem to be in favor of baiting counters using the colorless mana from Cavern of Souls. Do you want your opponents to counter your spell because they misjudge its value, or because they think you would play the land in your deck and then accidentally forget to use its ability?
Thank you. More players like this please. It's a game people - please remember that.
Whoa. What do you do if, say, you reveal a mana leak (with delver) and your opponent with caverns knowingly plays a creature without making it uncounterable? Do you NOT counter it because it's an obvious ploy? I think that's the correct logic... which means that he can cast any creature (of the named type) without tapping caverns and the correct play for you is to hang onto your counterspell. Strange.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
That's the way I see it, too. Under the previous ruling, the only reasons to tap Caverns for colorless on a spell of the named type were: #1--You'd like a counterspell to be used on the card, and #2--You forgot to specify you were tapping for colored. The new ruling prevents #2. Apparently there was a subset of people who would pretend to forget that Cavern of Souls was in play so that their opponent would try to take advantage of their (unrealistic) mistake and counter their creature, when they wanted it to be countered all along.
It's a convoluted scheme and I'm skeptical that it happened often.
You're right, but should it ever have been able to "bait" in the first place?
If the "default" assumption is wrong 99% of the time, I'd say it's the wrong assumption.
Why do you hate Island lovers so?
Do we not have the right in mtg to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
He may be the most unconstitutional things about magic.