Everyone who says they're disappointed, I'm curious. What were you expecting? Seems to me you had unreasonably high hopes for this bomb.
I just wanted a decent bomb. I don't see how that's having unreasonably high hopes. She didn't have to be the new Elesh Norn, but at 8 cmc, I'm expecting a bigger immediate advantage on the same casting turn than having indestructible permanents.. I would have been happier with something as boring as a fat flying fiend hunter just because that effect has more potential to swing the match on the same turn I cast Avacyn.
Where from my post did you get that I was accusing you directly of caring about standard? Just because I addressed your comments last, doesn't mean everything below that section was aimed at you. The phrase "All in all" was meant to indicate to you that I was summing up a lot of information that I've seen in many forum posts. But since you eventually posted something relevant to the discussion, let's further it along.
Yes, you don't like that she's monocoloured. But I never once believed she would be multicoloured, and I never saw any reasonable explaination as to why people assumed she would be. What exactly was it that caused this? And comparing her to Darksteel Forge is a bit like comparing her to Terra Eternal. They all do only one part of her entire ability. You say we've seen her ability before, on an angel, well enlighten me. Because I don't know which angel makes all your permanents indestrictuble. I like learning new things.
I would've put some kind of a separator when you were done replying to me. So was it just the first paragraph in that last bit that was aimed at me?
(Thanks Lectrys, Alestra, Namida especially, for clarifying before me)
I didn't mean that we've seen Avacyn's exact ability on cards before, but that we've seen similar. Darksteel Forge for artifacts, Terra Eternal for lands, Aegis Angel makes a permanent safe, Deathless protects your creatures (albeit for mana). We've seen enough similar effects that suddenly making everything indestructible, while cool and powerful, isn't exactly shaking up the world.
Namida's points on the backstory of her creation and all that is where I'm coming from. She has this epic, unique backstory and creator, and unique circumstances as well; getting trapped with demons could certainly influence someone to go multicolor and part black. She's portrayed a bit more as a hunter than a protector as well.
She's not exactly unique, because as Namida and others have said, you could slap half the other MTG angel names in existence onto Avacyn and it would make enough sense to print.
Quote from Namida »
I can understand (and respect: S_E) that our opinions differ, and there's nothing wrong with that. For all of my complaints, it's not as if I feel like this card commits some sort of sin against me or anything. I'm just kind of disappointed.
Technically, we've seen stuff similar to Elesh Norn's abilities on Crovax, Ascendant Hero. Norn just turned "nonwhite" into "creatures your opponents control".
This is true, we've seen similar in both relevant versions of Crovax; in fact, with the exception of Jin-Gitaxias, all of the Praetors had their abilities appear in some form or another before, as did most of the Titans. This doesn't stop them from being new takes on those abilities. In Elesh Norn's case, the fact that her ability is twice as effective as Crovax's and doesn't rely on color (so it isn't a bombo against, say, opposing spirit tokens) is both unique and integral to her relevance. Elesh Norn modifies power and toughness to an extent and in a way that had never been done before, as opposed to simply enlarging the set of objects affected by a "pre-existing" ability as Avacyn does.
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"I am so stupid that I cannot understand philosophy; the antithesis of this is that philosophy is so clever that it cannot comprehend my stupidity. These antitheses are mediated in a higher unity; in our common stupidity."
~ Søren Aabye Kierkegaard
I'll agree that I was expecting something more magical than powerful; ie, more of a johnny card than a timmy. Something like a legendary white Visara the Dreadful, but more powerful.
As I said before, if she gave hexproof too, there'd be a lot less complaints. I agree that indestructible is cool, but it feels like WOTC thinks it's more powerful than it really is, considering how much -x/-x shows up per set. Darksteel Myr is a good example, it should have cost 2 at most, and Darksteel Sentinel should have been 4/4 at least.
Bottom line being, that if you going to invest in such an expensive creature, then it's immediately competing with every other choice that cost a little less, and a little more, wrt rarity.
Is she better than Elesh Norn? No. Is she better than a Titan? No. Is she better than Kozilek? No. But these are all "I win" cards, and she's just win-more.
I'll agree that I was expecting something more magical than powerful; ie, more of a johnny card than a timmy. Something like a legendary white Visara the Dreadful, but more powerful.
As I said before, if she gave hexproof too, there'd be a lot less complaints. I agree that indestructible is cool, but it feels like WOTC thinks it's more powerful than it really is, considering how much -x/-x shows up per set. Darksteel Myr is a good example, it should have cost 2 at most, and Darksteel Sentinel should have been 4/4 at least.
Bottom line being, that if you going to invest in such an expensive creature, then it's immediately competing with every other choice that cost a little less, and a little more, wrt rarity.
Is she better than Elesh Norn? No. Is she better than a Titan? No. Is she better than Kozilek? No. But these are all "I win" cards, and she's just win-more.
Hexproof would have made Avacyn an extremely easy win-con for reanimator/ramp decks. Well-designed bombs are game-changers, not auto-wins.:-/
I do agree that Avacyn isn't an ideal bomb, but adding hexproof on top of all the other stuff she does would make her far too difficult to remove. She DEFINITELY shouldn't be better than Elesh nor the titans, probably not even as good. But I do agree she should have been more impacting.
Good god, 78 pages of comments on a creature that no one will care about in a week, outside of edh. Can't we just chalk her up to a fun fatty and call it a day?
Shes nice a beefy and has bonuses but i dont see much with her yet maybe something in this set will make her shine beacause shee needs to shine. Pair her with Asecticism the she would shine and make all your creature indestructible hexproofers with asecticism being indestructible
TBH, I'm not sure if it's any good in Khaalia deck. There are many better angels in Magic, like Linvala, Akroma, Iona, ...
She's good in Kaalia because it makes your creatures Wrath proof. There is very little 1 for 1 removal in EDH, and even less that can deal with indestructible creatures. Forcing your opponents to tutor up an StP or Path rather than their good spells is a valuable tool.
Final Judgement and BSZ are also very common in Commander. I think, indestructible is not *this* relevant and she's also very difficult to hardcast, so...
I'm not familiar with Commander, but how often do people cast Black Sun's Zenith for 10?
But we should still have to wait about 2 hours for a massive boost from people coming back from work/school
Well... This is the weirdest thing I've experienced in a long time... Someone copying one of my posts from 4 days ago and adding a link to a tablet in it...
Thanks for this moment of weirdness, but I'm still reporting you!
To be fair, Avacyn is one of the beefiest creatures available, and does come with two nice abilities; the ability of swinging and blocking a turn after dropping her, and usually making your opponents deal with her before they deal with Kaalia.
There is beefier (or things that hit harder), but not much that is vigilant or that protective of your board. But yes, exile effects see play, as do stealing effects and -X/-X effects. (Yeah, mono-black can regularly cast BSZ's for a lot, and lethal Exsanguinates)
She's good, but she's just another cool angel, really.
I don't understand why everybody is crying around. You know 1 card of a set whith over 200 cards, so there might be some supporting cards. And in the end maybe you can build a great deck around her. Just be patient!
Yes, Avacyn is only one card in the set, but it was supposed to be the card of the set; the whole set is named after her for Urza's sake! you'd expect her card to be at least marginally relevant instead of just being a large but plain and uninspiring fatty.
I agree that hexproof would have been far too powerful on the card as it stands, but I would have at least liked her to actually do something. If I put the sole protector of good for an entire plane onto the battlefield, there needs to be an immediate shift in power, even if she's the only creature I have out (especially for 8 CMC). Playing Avacyn and then not being able to do anything else but pass the turn just so my opponent can play Fiend Hunter, Oblivion Ring, Phantasmal Image, Phyrexian Metamorph, Geth's Verdict, etc., is just disappointing.
There is nothing unique about Avacyn. She is mechanically stale and her flavor is lacking. I expected more from a character who has been so built up and anticipated. I am underwhelmed.
She's good, but she's just another cool angel, really.
She does synergize with Kaalia really well, though, much in the way Aegis Angel does, but just that much better. There's no denying Avacyn will be a house in EDH, and probably one of the best Kaalia drops in the deck.
Avacyn paired with Magus of the Disk is gonna be nothing short of a nightmare.
The point is not that her exact text has appeared before, but that her mechanic is not "new". Avacyn is an Aegis Angel gone wild. It is true that she plays differently than anything else in the same vein - technically, the ability is unique - but the wailing of the discontented is not based on that. Our issue is that the ability is too close to other things we've seen before, whereas we were expecting something flashier. Compare the Praetor or Titan cycle: each of those have a novel ability or combination of abilities that makes them clearly stand out from anything else.
Titan abilities were hardly unique (reanimation, "freeze," token production, arc lightning, explosive vegetation), and Praetor abilities broke the color pie as it was traditionally understood, which just infuriated forum whiners for a different reason. Y WHITE GET INFEST?! Y RED GET KISMET?!
Significantly better than Konda, Lord of Eiganjo.
Would have been better if Avacyn cost 2 less mana for a 5/6 with the same abilities, she would be easier to use in decks that way.
Yes, Avacyn is only one card in the set, but it was supposed to be the card of the set; the whole set is named after her for Urza's sake! you'd expect her card to be at least marginally relevant instead of just being a large but plain and uninspiring fatty.
I agree that hexproof would have been far too powerful on the card as it stands, but I would have at least liked her to actually do something. If I put the sole protector of good for an entire plane onto the battlefield, there needs to be an immediate shift in power, even if she's the only creature I have out (especially for 8 CMC). Playing Avacyn and then not being able to do anything else but pass the turn just so my opponent can play Fiend Hunter, Oblivion Ring, Phantasmal Image, Phyrexian Metamorph, Geth's Verdict, etc., is just disappointing.
There is nothing unique about Avacyn. She is mechanically stale and her flavor is lacking. I expected more from a character who has been so built up and anticipated. I am underwhelmed.
Hey protip you can actually prevent Geth's Verdict if you have something else to sac! wow!
For the EDH crowd, wouldn't she just be mean with, say, Privileged Position, Asceticism and other thingies like that?
On that note a GW Ramp with Asceticism and her...I don't know, sounds like a fun kitchen table deck if nothing else.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Significantly better than Konda, Lord of Eiganjo.
Would have been better if Avacyn cost 2 less mana for a 6/6 with the same abilities, she would be easier to use in decks that way.
I literally changed my listed general for my monowhite enchantress edh from Konda to Avacyn when I saw the spoiler
There is nothing unique about Avacyn. She is mechanically stale and her flavor is lacking. I expected more from a character who has been so built up and anticipated. I am underwhelmed.
This is another argument I never really understood, either. To me, she makes perfect sense. She's the Guardian Angel of all of Innistrad, so when she's on your field she protects all of your permanents (by making them indestructible). Flavor wise she makes perfect sense, it's an easy, non convoluted way of invoking the flavor of a guardian angel (Like Aegis Angel was, except Avacyn is obviously way more powerful).
This is another argument I never really understood, either. To me, she makes perfect sense. She's the Guardian Angel of all of Innistrad, so when she's on your field she protects all of your permanents (by making them indestructible). Flavor wise she makes perfect sense, it's an easy, non convoluted way of invoking the flavor of a guardian angel (Like Aegis Angel was, except Avacyn is obviously way more powerful).
I do not even know why some people can argue that she's lacking in flavor, I mean the card pretty much captures her spot on from what was given with her backstory.
- She is 8/8 because she is said to be able to defeat powerful demons.
- She doesn't have Hexproof or Shroud because she is actually vulnerable. And also if she had Shroud, the Helvault would have not sealed her in.
- She doesn't have any of the Helvault's abilities because the ability to seal something into the Helvault was not inherent to her, it's an incantation.
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Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
I would've put some kind of a separator when you were done replying to me. So was it just the first paragraph in that last bit that was aimed at me?
(Thanks Lectrys, Alestra, Namida especially, for clarifying before me)
I didn't mean that we've seen Avacyn's exact ability on cards before, but that we've seen similar. Darksteel Forge for artifacts, Terra Eternal for lands, Aegis Angel makes a permanent safe, Deathless protects your creatures (albeit for mana). We've seen enough similar effects that suddenly making everything indestructible, while cool and powerful, isn't exactly shaking up the world.
Namida's points on the backstory of her creation and all that is where I'm coming from. She has this epic, unique backstory and creator, and unique circumstances as well; getting trapped with demons could certainly influence someone to go multicolor and part black. She's portrayed a bit more as a hunter than a protector as well.
She's not exactly unique, because as Namida and others have said, you could slap half the other MTG angel names in existence onto Avacyn and it would make enough sense to print.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
~ Søren Aabye Kierkegaard
As I said before, if she gave hexproof too, there'd be a lot less complaints. I agree that indestructible is cool, but it feels like WOTC thinks it's more powerful than it really is, considering how much -x/-x shows up per set. Darksteel Myr is a good example, it should have cost 2 at most, and Darksteel Sentinel should have been 4/4 at least.
Bottom line being, that if you going to invest in such an expensive creature, then it's immediately competing with every other choice that cost a little less, and a little more, wrt rarity.
Is she better than Elesh Norn? No. Is she better than a Titan? No. Is she better than Kozilek? No. But these are all "I win" cards, and she's just win-more.
I do agree that Avacyn isn't an ideal bomb, but adding hexproof on top of all the other stuff she does would make her far too difficult to remove. She DEFINITELY shouldn't be better than Elesh nor the titans, probably not even as good. But I do agree she should have been more impacting.
Wow I am glad some are not on the design team.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
She's good in Kaalia because it makes your creatures Wrath proof. There is very little 1 for 1 removal in EDH, and even less that can deal with indestructible creatures. Forcing your opponents to tutor up an StP or Path rather than their good spells is a valuable tool.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
I'm not familiar with Commander, but how often do people cast Black Sun's Zenith for 10?
So if spending 10 mana for a card isn't hard, I guess 8 must be easy!
Well... This is the weirdest thing I've experienced in a long time... Someone copying one of my posts from 4 days ago and adding a link to a tablet in it...
Thanks for this moment of weirdness, but I'm still reporting you!
To be fair, Avacyn is one of the beefiest creatures available, and does come with two nice abilities; the ability of swinging and blocking a turn after dropping her, and usually making your opponents deal with her before they deal with Kaalia.
There is beefier (or things that hit harder), but not much that is vigilant or that protective of your board. But yes, exile effects see play, as do stealing effects and -X/-X effects. (Yeah, mono-black can regularly cast BSZ's for a lot, and lethal Exsanguinates)
She's good, but she's just another cool angel, really.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
Yes, Avacyn is only one card in the set, but it was supposed to be the card of the set; the whole set is named after her for Urza's sake! you'd expect her card to be at least marginally relevant instead of just being a large but plain and uninspiring fatty.
I agree that hexproof would have been far too powerful on the card as it stands, but I would have at least liked her to actually do something. If I put the sole protector of good for an entire plane onto the battlefield, there needs to be an immediate shift in power, even if she's the only creature I have out (especially for 8 CMC). Playing Avacyn and then not being able to do anything else but pass the turn just so my opponent can play Fiend Hunter, Oblivion Ring, Phantasmal Image, Phyrexian Metamorph, Geth's Verdict, etc., is just disappointing.
There is nothing unique about Avacyn. She is mechanically stale and her flavor is lacking. I expected more from a character who has been so built up and anticipated. I am underwhelmed.
She does synergize with Kaalia really well, though, much in the way Aegis Angel does, but just that much better. There's no denying Avacyn will be a house in EDH, and probably one of the best Kaalia drops in the deck.
Avacyn paired with Magus of the Disk is gonna be nothing short of a nightmare.
Titan abilities were hardly unique (reanimation, "freeze," token production, arc lightning, explosive vegetation), and Praetor abilities broke the color pie as it was traditionally understood, which just infuriated forum whiners for a different reason. Y WHITE GET INFEST?! Y RED GET KISMET?!
Standard: W/R Aggro
Would have been better if Avacyn cost 2 less mana for a 5/6 with the same abilities, she would be easier to use in decks that way.
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Hey protip you can actually prevent Geth's Verdict if you have something else to sac! wow!
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
On that note a GW Ramp with Asceticism and her...I don't know, sounds like a fun kitchen table deck if nothing else.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I literally changed my listed general for my monowhite enchantress edh from Konda to Avacyn when I saw the spoiler
My Haves/ Wants List
My Commander Decks: Kozilek - Bruna - Sigarda - Gisela - Avacyn - Braids - Olivia - St. Traft - Scion
Standard: :symu::symw::symr: Miracle Superfriends - Legacy: Wild Defiance Infect
This is another argument I never really understood, either. To me, she makes perfect sense. She's the Guardian Angel of all of Innistrad, so when she's on your field she protects all of your permanents (by making them indestructible). Flavor wise she makes perfect sense, it's an easy, non convoluted way of invoking the flavor of a guardian angel (Like Aegis Angel was, except Avacyn is obviously way more powerful).
I do not even know why some people can argue that she's lacking in flavor, I mean the card pretty much captures her spot on from what was given with her backstory.
- She is 8/8 because she is said to be able to defeat powerful demons.
- She doesn't have Hexproof or Shroud because she is actually vulnerable. And also if she had Shroud, the Helvault would have not sealed her in.
- She doesn't have any of the Helvault's abilities because the ability to seal something into the Helvault was not inherent to her, it's an incantation.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
GWB Junk Stax Ghave BWG