I felt this was worthy of a thread after reading it. So I hope the moderators agree with me.
It seems that the Tribal card type is being discontinued a la the world supertype. To quote MaRo:
Quote from Mark Rosewater »
But if a set with a strong tribal subtheme doesn't use it, when would it ever get used? The answer is never. Yes, I am announcing the probable death knell of the tribal card type.
The article for you to read. Scroll down to Moan of the Unhallowed for more on this:
Tribal, like Shroud, is something that really needs a very specific context to make work. I feel like these "deaths" recently are completely overblown- if a later design wants them- they'll use em.
Whoa. Well, yeah, tribal is really an everything or nothing mechanic. If 5 years down the line they want to start a block that is Aliens vs Cowboys vs Plants vs Zombies vs Swedish people, then yeah, they'll bring back the tribal supertype. But I think they've decided that its not even on their distant scanners, so its more or less dead right now. Like cumulative upkeep and so many others. But I'd be surprised if they didn' revive it at some point
Tribal, like Shroud, is something that really needs a very specific context to make work. I feel like these "deaths" recently are completely overblown- if a later design wants them- they'll use em.
Maybe, maybe not.
They may try an alternative solution, such as changing the rules to allow creature types on non-creature spells without tribal.
This is a lot harder than you would think, believe me.
I didn't say it would be easy, but it would be easier than the changes they've made with Innistrad.
Alternatively, since they already have the Tribal type, they could simply make a templating change and add a rule that something printed as "Sorcery - Goblin" is a implicitly a Tribal.
It should be noted that after he announced Tribal's deathknell, he backtracked some and said it was probable. There are certain situations where it might come back, such as Eldrazi.
I didn't say it would be easy, but it would be easier than the changes they've made with Innistrad.
Alternatively, since they already have the Tribal type, they could simply make a templating change and add a rule that something printed as "Sorcery - Goblin" is a implicitly a Tribal.
Or, you know, use Tribal.
The only thing that bothers me is that they keep printing "Tribal" spells but they seem reluctant to add the Tribal type. Army of the Damned is the perfect example of this. They have nothing to lose by making it a Tribal spell; they would actually gain from it, because it would resonate more, and it might have some interesting interactions in a Zombie deck. They did it for some Eldrazi spells, and it didn't add anything mechanically, but it did nicely tie those spells to the Eldrazi.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
The only thing that bothers me is that they keep printing "Tribal" spells but they seem reluctant to add the Tribal type. Army of the Damned is the perfect example of this. They have nothing to lose by making it a Tribal spell; they would actually gain from it, because it would resonate more, and it might have some interesting interactions in a Zombie deck. They did it for some Eldrazi spells, and it didn't add anything mechanically, but it did nicely tie those spells to the Eldrazi.
If you read the article, they did have some to lose. It wasn't relevant often enough to justify the complexity creep.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A voice for Timmy.
Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
The only thing that bothers me is that they keep printing "Tribal" spells but they seem reluctant to add the Tribal type. Army of the Damned is the perfect example of this. They have nothing to lose by making it a Tribal spell; they would actually gain from it, because it would resonate more, and it might have some interesting interactions in a Zombie deck. They did it for some Eldrazi spells, and it didn't add anything mechanically, but it did nicely tie those spells to the Eldrazi.
The only thing that bothers me is that they keep printing "Tribal" spells but they seem reluctant to add the Tribal type. Army of the Damned is the perfect example of this. They have nothing to lose by making it a Tribal spell; they would actually gain from it, because it would resonate more, and it might have some interesting interactions in a Zombie deck. They did it for some Eldrazi spells, and it didn't add anything mechanically, but it did nicely tie those spells to the Eldrazi.
The problem is where do u draw the line and why. Other than flavor what is the reason for Army of the Damned being a tribal card? If AotD is Zombie what else should be? Is Corpse Lunge Zombie? Should Bump in the Night be Vampire? Do any of these Tribal types matter for game played based on the set? No so why would we use them?
Tribal is such a pain because there are so many cards that WANT to be tribal but that are in blocks or sets where they don't want to design around noncreatures cooperating with the spells work with the corresponding creature types. I wouldn't mind it if they started making tribal cards in sets where the creature type really didn't add anything but flavor, but that's getting further from the way they want to approach design (avoiding Time Spiral-like messes) and it could lead to unanticipated consequences in Eternal formats. Then again, there are very few creature types other than Elves, Merfolk, and Goblins that have broken into Eternal formats AND have some tribal support, so maybe that's a positive.
I think it might make an interesting set design challenge to design a core set as though you could redo the rules to be more consistent. The designers mention things like that a lot: tribal stuff, flash/instants condensed into a supertype of creatures/sorceries/etc., simple card names and mechanics that were wasted or slightly mistemplated (Fading/Vanishing and flip/transform, for example), all the spirit/arcane stuff
Alternates for tribal are meaningless. There's nothing wrong with tribal mechanic-wise. The issue is the interaction between tribal cards and the creatures of the same type. In his statement, he mentioned that there were very few meaningful interactions between the tribal zombies and creature zombie cards (Not to mention, Army of the Damned as a tribal would likely have broken Rooftop Storm). Using a mechanic that would either do nothing or break another card is, in my opinion, not worth it.
Tribal worked well in Lorwyn/Morningtide, where the tribal interactions were well defined. Cards were created either with intent to be for the tribe, or given a tribal connection to fill up that tribe's options.
In Rise of the Eldrazi, tribal only showed up on a few cards, all of them so obviously eldrazi in nature that the mechanic was possibly added as an afterthought (I could be wrong about that).
With Innistrad, the entire set was made from flavor first, then mechanics. This may seem like a good time for tribal to return, and maybe with a different theme, it would have. But the horror theme can end up somewhat vague at times, leading to effects that are clearly connected to one element, but in name only. Ghostly Possession could easily be a spirit card, but there's no benefit to it being a tribal spirit. As MaRo said, the only tribe that had any real benefits to being that tribe is the Zombie tribe. Having only one out of five major tribes getting a benefit from a mechanic would have forced the team to do one of two things: A - make each tribe care more for it's spells than it has been; or B - remove tribal and get rid of the issue. Clearly they chose B.
Tribal will make its return, I don't doubt it. But only if it would actually matter on the cards it's put on. Flavor is great and all, but throwing tribal on any card that could be associated with a specific tribe would spoil the purpose of the mechanic - to show creatures interacting with their own type of spellcraft.
I actually don't understand his comments on the zombie sorcery.
I thought tribal wells were spells that could only be cast by creatures of the tribe. To think of it in Vorthosian terms, if you cast a goblin tribal shock (what was that card again?), you don't so much cast the shock but rather you summon a goblin that casts it.
This idea makes sense for the All Is Dust and the Lorwyn tribal spells, but clearly there's no reason to do it in Innistrad.
Tribal was actually a pretty decent worthwhile mechanic. Mark Rosewater (assuming he is involved) sucks.
Tribal doesn't really qualify as a mechanic to me, its purely a shortcoming of the way MTG is designed and templated. The fact we needed such a ridiculously clunky supertype that basically asks people to consult a tome of rules to understand wtf is going on, was horrible. At the same time, it enabled things that were dead necessary, in terms of extending tribe support from just creatures to other permanents & spells.
Honestly, tribal should never have existed. It doesn't bug me that it does, but I don't mourn its passing either.
As he said, it overcomplicates the game, and while what it gives is a nice bonus, it just wasn't worth the headaches, hence, ding dong the witch is dead.
It seems that the Tribal card type is being discontinued a la the world supertype. To quote MaRo:
The article for you to read. Scroll down to Moan of the Unhallowed for more on this:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/161
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Trades
Pucatrade with me!
(Signature courtesy of Argetlam of Hakai Studios
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Tribal was actually a pretty decent worthwhile mechanic. Mark Rosewater (assuming he is involved) sucks.
Maybe, maybe not.
They may try an alternative solution, such as changing the rules to allow creature types on non-creature spells without tribal.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I feel like this should have been their first solution. :/
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
That's really a bummer since it was the first one.
Nameless Inversion is second because of its interaction with Haakon.
This is a lot harder than you would think, believe me.
I didn't say it would be easy, but it would be easier than the changes they've made with Innistrad.
Alternatively, since they already have the Tribal type, they could simply make a templating change and add a rule that something printed as "Sorcery - Goblin" is a implicitly a Tribal.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Or, you know, use Tribal.
The only thing that bothers me is that they keep printing "Tribal" spells but they seem reluctant to add the Tribal type. Army of the Damned is the perfect example of this. They have nothing to lose by making it a Tribal spell; they would actually gain from it, because it would resonate more, and it might have some interesting interactions in a Zombie deck. They did it for some Eldrazi spells, and it didn't add anything mechanically, but it did nicely tie those spells to the Eldrazi.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
If you read the article, they did have some to lose. It wasn't relevant often enough to justify the complexity creep.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Read the article. He addresses this.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
The problem is where do u draw the line and why. Other than flavor what is the reason for Army of the Damned being a tribal card? If AotD is Zombie what else should be? Is Corpse Lunge Zombie? Should Bump in the Night be Vampire? Do any of these Tribal types matter for game played based on the set? No so why would we use them?
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
I think it might make an interesting set design challenge to design a core set as though you could redo the rules to be more consistent. The designers mention things like that a lot: tribal stuff, flash/instants condensed into a supertype of creatures/sorceries/etc., simple card names and mechanics that were wasted or slightly mistemplated (Fading/Vanishing and flip/transform, for example), all the spirit/arcane stuff
Tribal worked well in Lorwyn/Morningtide, where the tribal interactions were well defined. Cards were created either with intent to be for the tribe, or given a tribal connection to fill up that tribe's options.
In Rise of the Eldrazi, tribal only showed up on a few cards, all of them so obviously eldrazi in nature that the mechanic was possibly added as an afterthought (I could be wrong about that).
With Innistrad, the entire set was made from flavor first, then mechanics. This may seem like a good time for tribal to return, and maybe with a different theme, it would have. But the horror theme can end up somewhat vague at times, leading to effects that are clearly connected to one element, but in name only. Ghostly Possession could easily be a spirit card, but there's no benefit to it being a tribal spirit. As MaRo said, the only tribe that had any real benefits to being that tribe is the Zombie tribe. Having only one out of five major tribes getting a benefit from a mechanic would have forced the team to do one of two things: A - make each tribe care more for it's spells than it has been; or B - remove tribal and get rid of the issue. Clearly they chose B.
Tribal will make its return, I don't doubt it. But only if it would actually matter on the cards it's put on. Flavor is great and all, but throwing tribal on any card that could be associated with a specific tribe would spoil the purpose of the mechanic - to show creatures interacting with their own type of spellcraft.
My YouTube Channel
I thought tribal wells were spells that could only be cast by creatures of the tribe. To think of it in Vorthosian terms, if you cast a goblin tribal shock (what was that card again?), you don't so much cast the shock but rather you summon a goblin that casts it.
This idea makes sense for the All Is Dust and the Lorwyn tribal spells, but clearly there's no reason to do it in Innistrad.
Tribal doesn't really qualify as a mechanic to me, its purely a shortcoming of the way MTG is designed and templated. The fact we needed such a ridiculously clunky supertype that basically asks people to consult a tome of rules to understand wtf is going on, was horrible. At the same time, it enabled things that were dead necessary, in terms of extending tribe support from just creatures to other permanents & spells.
Honestly, tribal should never have existed. It doesn't bug me that it does, but I don't mourn its passing either.
As he said, it overcomplicates the game, and while what it gives is a nice bonus, it just wasn't worth the headaches, hence, ding dong the witch is dead.