They may try an alternative solution, such as changing the rules to allow creature types on non-creature spells without tribal.
That would be stupid. They have tribal and have not used it, because it was not worthwhile to have the creature types - it's hard to imagine them changing their mind on one thing, but not the other since both creation and abandoning of tribal were based on that very same question: Do we want creature types on noncreature cards?
Otherwise fine.
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[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Curse is not a card type, much like Trap or Arcane.
Please understand why tribal was bad before actually complaining about it.
Also, this thread shows that we really do shoot the messenger.
Curses are pretty much a card type, as cards are printed checking for curse permanents.
I think tribal was just fine, it literally hurt nothing by being on the card, he said so in his own article about it "It's addition didn't really add anything except a bit of extra confusion about the card type". So basically, it didn't unbalance anything or change anything, it was basically service to the tribe and making it a bit more flavorful by making a spell tribe-inspired.
Curse literally is pointless, remove curse and the card is exactly the same mechanically except the two cards that remove curses.
Tribal is very flavorful and I am sre it may come back in another form. Curses have great flavor and I am excited to see how they shape up in the next two sets. I would like to see things like Takklemaggot. Creatures that become Curses.
Curses are pretty much a card type, as cards are printed checking for curse permanents.
That makes no sense.
Curses are just Enchant Player Auras with an extra flavorful subtype. They act identically to other Enchantment Auras with Enchant Player, just like Sorceries/Instants with Arcane don't actually act differently. The reason the subtype exists is that other cards care about the subtype.
I think tribal was just fine, it literally hurt nothing by being on the card, he said so in his own article about it "It's addition didn't really add anything except a bit of extra confusion about the card type". So basically, it didn't unbalance anything or change anything, it was basically service to the tribe and making it a bit more flavorful by making a spell tribe-inspired.
The problem with Tribal is that it simply doesn't do much most of the time, yet it's another two words in the textline. Tribal itself was an inelegant use of a loophole.
It's also created a clunky text construction of "creature-type creatures".
Curse literally is pointless, remove curse and the card is exactly the same mechanically except the two cards that remove curses.
And the card that searches for a curse and puts it into play. You might want to read the spoiler again.
I'm of the opinion that Tribal was not good. Most of the cards that could interact with Tribal don't, there's something wrong. It also forced them to use more text on the cards, never a good thing.
Besides, it never made sense to me how a tribal spell worked in flavor. Tarfire can be resurrected by Boggart Birthrite because it's... A goblin? What? Did someone just give birth to a ball of burning tar?
I know I'm being literal here, but Tribal still is just weird in flavor, especially with the amount of non-tribal cards we've had that could have easily been tribal in Lorwyn block.
If they really are killing it, it's a sad, sad waste. The Tribal supertype was very fun, and made the game more interesting. I hope they come to their senses, and just put it on the backburner for future use.
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The problem with Tribal is that it really sould be an evergreen mecanic to work. Otherwise, it becomes really strange that, say, Bitterblossom is a faerie while Mobilization isn't a soldier. Or that Trollhide isn't a Tribal Enchantment - Aura Troll. Or that Quest for Ula's Temple isn't a Tribal Enchantment - Kraken Leviathan Octopus Serpent.
They probably didn't think it was worth the hassle, and neither do I.
My biggest disappointment here is that Army of the Damned counts the number of Zombies in play. If it were a Tribal Enchantment - Zombie, it would count itself. MaRo said that there weren't enough situations where being Tribal would've mattered, because too many abilities that care about creature types specifically say they only work for creatures. But why not just say they work on all things with that type? Just make sure Army of the Damned doesn't have the word "creatures" right after "Zombie", and it would totally be worth the complexity creep, because its having the Zombie subtype would ALWAYS be relevant when it's in play!
Okay, yes, it wouldn't matter as much in most other cases (I can't think of any noncreature card in INS that would benefit from being a Tribal - Werewolf) but still, I think closing the book on Tribal was a mistake. I'm fine with it being something that only gets used once every four or five blocks, but for MaRo to "declare it dead" feels a bit shortsighted. It's a tool in Magic's toolbox. Choosing not to use it is fine, but giving up on EVER using it?
It pisses me off to see cards that say zombie in thier text like enchantments and instants and sorceries. Why can they not use those cards and just put tribal zombie? It would not hurt the set as a whole because these cards have no specific mechanic tied to it. Rooftop storm is an excellent choice for this
My biggest disappointment here is that Army of the Damned counts the number of Zombies in play. If it were a Tribal Enchantment - Zombie, it would count itself. MaRo said that there weren't enough situations where being Tribal would've mattered, because too many abilities that care about creature types specifically say they only work for creatures. But why not just say they work on all things with that type? Just make sure Army of the Damned doesn't have the word "creatures" right after "Zombie", and it would totally be worth the complexity creep, because its having the Zombie subtype would ALWAYS be relevant when it's in play!
Okay, yes, it wouldn't matter as much in most other cases (I can't think of any noncreature card in INS that would benefit from being a Tribal - Werewolf) but still, I think closing the book on Tribal was a mistake. I'm fine with it being something that only gets used once every four or five blocks, but for MaRo to "declare it dead" feels a bit shortsighted. It's a tool in Magic's toolbox. Choosing not to use it is fine, but giving up on EVER using it?
You mean Endless Ranks of the Dead, not Army of the Dead.
As far as I'm concerned, this is just MaRo planting the seed for people to not cry when Tarmogoyf gets reprinted in one of the next 2 sets.
I mean, think about it. A graveyard based set is the perfect place for it. They want to support modern as being more accessible because anything can be reprinted. Now this, announcing that for the foreseeable future, one of the card types that goyf uses isn't going to be seeing print. If he gets reprinted now, he'll have a maximum of 1 less than full power in Standard, just like he was before Lorwyn saw print. You know, before he was broken. He's already full-powered in Legacy and Modern. Extended might as well be dead at this point anyway, so him seeing print again won't have too big an impact there.
So while I enjoy Tribal cards, I can understand why they cut them and I'm excited for the space this opens to reprint Tarmogoyf.
He was at two less than max before Lorwyn. Planeswalkers are a card type too.
EDIT: Also, to those that think removing Tribal doesn't do anything: Tribal was absolutely necessary in order to give non-creature cards a creature subtype, like "Sorcery - Goblin". Without it, we won't be seeing those noncreature tribal cards anymore. For those that felt it was a silly mechanic, fair enough. It just happened to also add more interactivity, and more flavor to those cards.
Sad, Tribal was one of my favorite mechanics, and IMO reduces complexity. When I first started playing magic a long time ago it took me a very long time to understand that cards like cruel revival didn't count as a zombie. It makes since to me.
I obviously had my tongue in cheek in that example.
Another pretty obvious example that I just remembered: why isn't Goblin Grenade a Goblin, while Fodder Launch is?
Bottom line: tribal as a concept is way too overarching. Pretty much every other spell could be construed as Tribal if you tried hard enough. There is no clear dividing line on whether something should be tribal or not (see loose examples like Favor of the Mighty or Faerie Trickery).
Incidentally, this is also why I dislike the Snow supertype. It gets very weird to see Snow cards and then realize neither Frost Titan nor Frost Breath or Glacial Ray or even Frozen Solid are Snow spells themselves. Both Snow and Tribal only really work from an unified flavor standpoint if they become evergreen.
If Wizards does decide to give another go at giving non-creature spells/permanents creature types, I imagine that they'll do it WITHOUT using Tribal. Tribal was Wizards changing a mechanic to fit the rules. Much like Kamigawa flip cards.
Wizards attitude with the transform cards, on the other hand, was to change the rules to fit the mechanic (which, in my mind, is a much better decision). If they decide to revisit the concept of giving creature types to spells, I imagine that they'll change the rules to fit the mechanics, and we'll see stuff like Sorcery - Goblin, instead of Tribal Sorcery - Goblin.
Not to say such a change would be easy, nor am I totally sure what it would entail, or even that it would happen, but I get the impression that this is what their current attitude at R&D would bring about.
They might even errata all the old Tribal cards, getting rid of the Tribal card type. Totally nerfing Tarmogoyf, of course, and making him completely unplayable :).
The only thing that bothers me is that they keep printing "Tribal" spells but they seem reluctant to add the Tribal type. Army of the Damned is the perfect example of this. They have nothing to lose by making it a Tribal spell; they would actually gain from it, because it would resonate more, and it might have some interesting interactions in a Zombie deck. They did it for some Eldrazi spells, and it didn't add anything mechanically, but it did nicely tie those spells to the Eldrazi.
Curse is not a card type, much like Trap or Arcane.
Please understand why tribal was bad before actually complaining about it.
Also, this thread shows that we really do shoot the messenger.
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That would be stupid. They have tribal and have not used it, because it was not worthwhile to have the creature types - it's hard to imagine them changing their mind on one thing, but not the other since both creation and abandoning of tribal were based on that very same question: Do we want creature types on noncreature cards?
Otherwise fine.
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Curses are pretty much a card type, as cards are printed checking for curse permanents.
I think tribal was just fine, it literally hurt nothing by being on the card, he said so in his own article about it "It's addition didn't really add anything except a bit of extra confusion about the card type". So basically, it didn't unbalance anything or change anything, it was basically service to the tribe and making it a bit more flavorful by making a spell tribe-inspired.
Curse literally is pointless, remove curse and the card is exactly the same mechanically except the two cards that remove curses.
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That makes no sense.
Curses are just Enchant Player Auras with an extra flavorful subtype. They act identically to other Enchantment Auras with Enchant Player, just like Sorceries/Instants with Arcane don't actually act differently. The reason the subtype exists is that other cards care about the subtype.
The problem with Tribal is that it simply doesn't do much most of the time, yet it's another two words in the textline. Tribal itself was an inelegant use of a loophole.
It's also created a clunky text construction of "creature-type creatures".
And the card that searches for a curse and puts it into play. You might want to read the spoiler again.
I'm of the opinion that Tribal was not good. Most of the cards that could interact with Tribal don't, there's something wrong. It also forced them to use more text on the cards, never a good thing.
Besides, it never made sense to me how a tribal spell worked in flavor. Tarfire can be resurrected by Boggart Birthrite because it's... A goblin? What? Did someone just give birth to a ball of burning tar?
I know I'm being literal here, but Tribal still is just weird in flavor, especially with the amount of non-tribal cards we've had that could have easily been tribal in Lorwyn block.
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rather than Tribal which was printed and can't be un-printed now that it's already out?
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World's biggest oversight right there.
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Okay, yes, it wouldn't matter as much in most other cases (I can't think of any noncreature card in INS that would benefit from being a Tribal - Werewolf) but still, I think closing the book on Tribal was a mistake. I'm fine with it being something that only gets used once every four or five blocks, but for MaRo to "declare it dead" feels a bit shortsighted. It's a tool in Magic's toolbox. Choosing not to use it is fine, but giving up on EVER using it?
Someone probably posted that back in 07 or whenever . . . yeah.
You mean Endless Ranks of the Dead, not Army of the Dead.
There will be only Creature, Land, Enchantment, Instant, Sorcery, Artifact and Planeswalker as card types.
That does not mean that they will not do a "Sorcery - Goblin" card
They are only removing the "Tribal" card type.
Or, that is what I have understood...
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getting rid of Elves?
or just getting rid of cards that use the word tribal on them?
getting rid of tribes would be so stupid, they have been there since the VERY BEGINNING.
2. Reprint Goyf.
3. ???
4. Profit!
I used Crib Swap as a recurring removal with Horde of Notions in EDH. They should just put Changeling to give universal tribal support without Tribal.
He was at two less than max before Lorwyn. Planeswalkers are a card type too.
EDIT: Also, to those that think removing Tribal doesn't do anything: Tribal was absolutely necessary in order to give non-creature cards a creature subtype, like "Sorcery - Goblin". Without it, we won't be seeing those noncreature tribal cards anymore. For those that felt it was a silly mechanic, fair enough. It just happened to also add more interactivity, and more flavor to those cards.
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Another pretty obvious example that I just remembered: why isn't Goblin Grenade a Goblin, while Fodder Launch is?
Bottom line: tribal as a concept is way too overarching. Pretty much every other spell could be construed as Tribal if you tried hard enough. There is no clear dividing line on whether something should be tribal or not (see loose examples like Favor of the Mighty or Faerie Trickery).
Incidentally, this is also why I dislike the Snow supertype. It gets very weird to see Snow cards and then realize neither Frost Titan nor Frost Breath or Glacial Ray or even Frozen Solid are Snow spells themselves. Both Snow and Tribal only really work from an unified flavor standpoint if they become evergreen.
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Wizards attitude with the transform cards, on the other hand, was to change the rules to fit the mechanic (which, in my mind, is a much better decision). If they decide to revisit the concept of giving creature types to spells, I imagine that they'll change the rules to fit the mechanics, and we'll see stuff like Sorcery - Goblin, instead of Tribal Sorcery - Goblin.
Not to say such a change would be easy, nor am I totally sure what it would entail, or even that it would happen, but I get the impression that this is what their current attitude at R&D would bring about.
They might even errata all the old Tribal cards, getting rid of the Tribal card type. Totally nerfing Tarmogoyf, of course, and making him completely unplayable :).
And this is so true!
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This isn't true. Cards don't have to be Tribal to have Changeling or to have a characteristic-defining ability in their textbox.
There were Tribal cards in Future Sight. Planeswalkers were the only thing that didn't exist when goyf got printed.