lol. i sideboarded this in the prerelease in my bg deck... i swapped it out for doom blade when i was up against people playing black. its great for getting rid of royal assasins and child of the night. useless in constructed.
Possibly, you meant that direct damage is green and it appears in other fantasy settings, in which case, you're sneaking a petitio principii in there (being, that direct damage is green). You sneaky person, you.
If not that, though, my answer is "... Green isn't in anything other than Magic. What are you talking about?" What appeared in other fantasy settings are 'insect swarms that inflict damage.' Not "Green." Not without establishing a connection there.
You are making way too much out of this one, I think. You don't have to use latin to make points. Plain english is probably better.
It appears to me you are accusing him of using circular logic. You assert that he says "since there is green direct damage in a fantasy setting, why can't there be direct damage in this fantasy setting?" (And then you call him a name, but I won't factor that into my reasoning.)
You ask for examples of green dealing damage with insects through magic. Of course no other game will have a slice of the color pie exactly like Magic's green. But D&D was mentioned, and I think there is something to that.
In D&D 4th edition, the Druid has the "Primal" power source, which is describes as "Powers that draw on the spirits of nature that pervade the world."
Here are a few Druid powers that deal damage with insects:
Swarming Locusts (level 1)
Stining Cloud (level 1)
Fog of Insects (level 1)
Flowing Swarm (level 3)
Plague of Locusts (level 7)
Poison Sting (level 7)
Well... They exist. And in a setting managed by WoTC.
You might still wonder, "What does this have to do with Magic? This is something else."
Much of what Magic had used to be something else. Goblins, elves, wizards, etc. Where do you draw the line? If Magic was not allowed to draw inspiration from outside sources, it would certainly not be the game it is today.
I don't see how Hornet Sting is so bad. It is very flavorful (green being naturey and buggy, hornets are bugs, hornets sting ppl). I think it makes sense and is in color for green to be able to deal small amounts of damage, or conditional damage like Leaf Arrow.
... Actually, thinking along this line reinforces my thought of green being able to hit attacking creatures. Wasps and other insects don't typically go out and randomly attack other animals. Instead the other animals intrude or disturb the insects' hives and then the insects attack them. The same is true for a lot of wild animals (bears, cats, dogs, etc). Wild animals fight in mostly in two situations: hunting for food (Tracker), and protecting their territory (reflavored Sandstorm).
You are making way too much out of this one, I think. You don't have to use latin to make points. Plain english is probably better.
There is no plain English for the technical point I wanted to make. Arguments are the subject matter of philosophy, which has retained certain latin phrases in its discourse. The translation for petitio principii doesn't make sense and would be no help.
"Circular logic" isn't plain English. Every statement draws on expertise from the speakers, if it says anything about stuff. I might as well say exactly what I meant.
Much of what Magic had used to be something else. Goblins, elves, wizards, etc. Where do you draw the line? If Magic was not allowed to draw inspiration from outside sources, it would certainly not be the game it is today.
Inspiration is different from revelation.
But, before that, my response isn't "What does this have to do with Magic? This is something else." It is, "Those spells have maximum effective ranges. Review them."
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There is no plain English for the technical point I wanted to make. Arguments are the subject matter of philosophy, which has retained certain latin phrases in its discourse. The translation for petitio principii doesn't make sense and would be no help.
"Circular logic" isn't plain English. Every statement draws on expertise from the speakers, if it says anything about stuff. I might as well say exactly what I meant.
Inspiration is different from revelation.
But, before that, my response isn't "What does this have to do with Magic? This is something else." It is, "Those spells have maximum effective ranges. Review them."
I'm finding it hard to say anything about what you just wrote that isn't going to get me an infraction. G for 1 damage is fine for flavor. I'm assuming you know that allied colors bleed a little every now and then. Green gets trick instant spells once a block. While MaRo may have objected, the vox populi of R&D obviously liked the card.
There is no plain English for the technical point I wanted to make. Arguments are the subject matter of philosophy, which has retained certain latin phrases in its discourse. The translation for petitio principii doesn't make sense and would be no help.
"Circular logic" isn't plain English. Every statement draws on expertise from the speakers, if it says anything about stuff. I might as well say exactly what I meant.
See? I had to look up what petitio principii meant, and it looks like I got the wrong definition. I wish you had used plain english to make your point, because I misinterpreted you.
Inspiration is different from revelation.
I also don't understand this.
But, before that, my response isn't "What does this have to do with Magic? This is something else." It is, "Those spells have maximum effective ranges. Review them."
I was talking about the flavor, no need to shift the argument's topic. There are spells that druids cast that damage directly using insects. If you don't question the validity of their flavor. I suppose the discussion is done.
I agree with your points, but I think people are debating this card mostly because they aren't used to a lot of flavor exceptions in green and because Rosewater threw a hissy fit about it.
1st: Flavor exceptions have existed and have been accepted in green before.
2nd: Interesting how this thread was already several pages long before MaRo's statements were brought up.
The "close in the color pie" argument shouldn't even exist - it would justify any of the following: pure life gain in modern blue, pure life gain in modern red, pure creature destruction in modern blue, pure shroud in modern red, pure bounce in modern black, pure copy effects in modern white, pure direct damage in modern green etc.
As a special treatment, now I will provide a few cards to illustrate the point (feel free to marvel at how good they fit the color pie):
Rejuvenation :xmana::symu::symu:
Instant
Target player gains X life. "These long battles have left their marks on me. How I long for the times when I was young and capable. Let's bring them back!" —Xerech, elder chronomancer
Barbeque :1mana::symr:
Instant
Target player gains 3 life. "Fetch me another steak!" —Maxti, pyromancer
Hypothermia :1mana::symu::symu:
Instant
Destroy target nonartifact creature. "Let's put some of them on ice for later!" —Tamix, cryomancer
Crackcrawler :3mana::symr:
Creature - Lizard
Shroud
~ can't be blocked by creatures with flying. Their skin is specialized on recreating the patterns of the rocky surfaces in their home mountains - but wherever it skitters it still will look like a rock.
2/1
Boo!
Sorcery
Return target creature to its owner's hand. Yeah, run home to mommy!
Pray for Plentiness :2mana::symw:
Instant
Copy target spell or ability. The Taori don't believe in the sin of greed, so their first reaction to any blessing is to thank their god and ask for more.
Hornet Sting
Instant
~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player. It was only then—to his infinite sorrow—that Gork realized hornets don't make honey.
Oh, and it propably nis no good idea to use any of the following as an argument in favor of Hornet Sting:
(1.) Cards older than yore.
(2.) TS-block cards that were specifically created to emulate cards of yore while viloating the modern color pie.
(3.) Cards that already received the same "Does not fit the modern pie"-reaction as Hornet Sting (especially if this sentiment has *also* received vocal support by MaRo).
(4.) Restricted variants of the ability (e. g. everyone knows Leaf Arrow exists - still it is the restriction that defines the card as green).
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
1st: Flavor exceptions have existed and have been accepted in green before.
2nd: Interesting how this thread was already several pages long before MaRo's statements were brought up.
Seems like your just arguing for the sake of argument here... Flavor exceptions in green are almost exclusively very old or from time spiral block time/color shifted cards, BOP is one of the only modern examples I can think of and they still tried to get rid of it just before Ravnica block... they just realized that it was one of the few cards green had been getting in every core set that was good and that removing it crippled the color badly. And yes, many people were debating the point before Maro was brought up. I brought him up because he will have a larger impact on this debate than anyone in this forum ever will...
Oh, and it propably nis no good idea to use any of the following as an argument in favor of Hornet Sting:
(1.) Cards older than yore.
(2.) TS-block cards that were specifically created to emulate cards of yore while viloating the modern color pie.
(3.) Cards that already received the same "Does not fit the modern pie"-reaction as Hornet Sting (especially if this sentiment has *also* received vocal support by MaRo).
(4.) Restricted variants of the ability (e. g. everyone knows Leaf Arrow exists - still it is the restriction that defines the card as green).
Agree with points 1,2 and 4... cards in those categories are not good examples.
Point 3 is a bit confusing, the whole reason many people are defending Hornet Sting is because Maro complained about it while completely support many other modern cards that violated the color pie just as badly or worse.
I, and I think many others feel that some occasional color pie bleed is ok, as long as it doesn't outclass the colors that are supposed to get the ability in question, it's flavorfully justified and as long as it's rare.
Maro apparently also feels this way, but only toward non-green colors. My primary beef with the reaction toward this card is Maro's reaction... there will always be people in forums who take either side. When a guy who's the head of R&D is nonchalantly hypocritical about the way he handles the color pie for different colors I take issue with it, since it will most certainly affect the way that the game is designed in the future.
Mono-red shroud exists on Giant Solifuge. Mono-white copy on Mirrorweave. Neither of those is color-shifted or exceptionally old.
No, but they are not mono-red or mono-blue. If you were to make that statement then the Solifuge is an excellent example. Mono-green haste is not especially common either...
Other than that I think Hornet Sting is just fine. It's shock, but since it's green it only deals one damage. Perfectly fine, and justified flavorwise. As to why they chose to print it, I got no idea.
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Hornet Sting is obviously an amazing card. It has thus far generated 17 pages of discussion about MTG design as not only a game but also as a psychological perception about a fantasy realm. Show me another card that has done that.
Hornet Sting is obviously an amazing card. It has thus far generated 17 pages of discussion about MTG design as not only a game but also as a psychological perception about a fantasy realm. Show me another card that has done that.
I'm going to guess Harmonize. An awful lot of players were bitterly opposed to the idea of Green getting a draw source that, for once, wasn't complete garbage. Defenses of the card got pretty metaphysical.
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Quote from Nirvava »
you can generally tell the easiest road to victory by how many players congregate on it; and the road of counterspells/control has been the freeway of choice in magic for quite some time.
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What I find offensive is not that Wizards is endeavoring to make the game more accessible, but the attitudes of elitists who act as though no one of any age should show their face in the Magic public without first having mastery over the complexities of the game.
Wow, that's right. Green got both Harmonize and Hornet Sting. I guess I have to conclude that breaking the color pie is now mostly in green's slice of the pie.
Wow, that's right. Green got both Harmonize and Hornet Sting. I guess I have to conclude that breaking the color pie is now mostly in green's slice of the pie.
Wow, that's right. Green got both Harmonize and Hornet Sting. I guess I have to conclude that breaking the color pie is now mostly in green's slice of the pie.
hmm, yes, that's true. A single card from M11 and another card from a set released three years ago is indicative of a trend. I agree.
Seriously though - if "breaking the color pie" becomes a green thing then that is only because what Green does is so restricted that WotC has to do so to print actual interesting green cards.
Using any cards from a set where black got Wrath of God and blue got discard is hardly relevant, all the colors got color shifted cards... it was the set's theme.
This is going to be my answer to the other part I'm quoting.
I mean by "Inspiration isn't revelation" that what was said, about drawing inspiration from, say, the druid class, is entirely immaterial to settling if Hornet Sting is right or not.
It was my diplomatic way of sidestepping the accusation "that only looks like it advances the argument, but it doesn't." Saying you can look at druids in fantasy to be inspired for Green design, and saying something about what designs *are* Green by looking at druids in fantasy, are as different as saying that you can get your scientific theories from reading tea leaves, and that you can justify scientific theories from reading tea leaves.
I won't deny you can get an idea from reading tea leaves, tossing sticks, playing word association, or acid-tripping and then having wild passionate threesomes. But the way you check an idea is where the method counts.
The post I first quoted did, as I see, absolutely nothing, in the end, to argue that Hornet Sting is right as Green.
I was talking about the flavor, no need to shift the argument's topic. There are spells that druids cast that damage directly using insects. If you don't question the validity of their flavor. I suppose the discussion is done.
The Druid gets into combat with those targets. It is threatened by those creatures it can possibly target with such spells, over the span of time which is reasonable to say is the parallel of a combat phase in Magic. This makes it no different from a Druid creature's power, in Magic's system.
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I'm going on record right now and stating that before the end of 2012 we will see foil dual lands in booster packs (The real, Alpha dual lands). You can quote me on that.
Saying you can look at druids in fantasy to be inspired for Green design, and saying something about what designs *are* Green by looking at druids in fantasy, are as different as saying that you can get your scientific theories from reading tea leaves, and that you can justify scientific theories from reading tea leaves.
This, I disagree with. You could take a Druid spell like Swarming Locusts, which deals damage and make a magic card out of it called Swarming Locusts, which deals damage. They aren't quite as different from one another as gravity is from and tea.
The post I first quoted did, as I see, absolutely nothing, in the end, to argue that Hornet Sting is right as Green.
Hornet Sting is absolutely not in green's pie. Mechanically, it's a wreck. From a flavor standpoint, it's been done in other games and works of fiction without raising any eyebrows.
The Druid gets into combat with those targets. It is threatened by those creatures it can possibly target with such spells, over the span of time which is reasonable to say is the parallel of a combat phase in Magic. This makes it no different from a Druid creature's power, in Magic's system.
Well, sure. But so do wizards that cast lightning bolt or fireball. With things like Hornet Sting, just like Lightning Bolt, it is a planeswalker (the original kind, the player) casting a spell. He is also putting himself in harm's way. He can be targeted by things like Lava Axe. He can also be hurt in melee, like from the bite of Tundra Wolves.
This is casual talk but I wanted to say I got to bring out a bloodthirsty Scab-Clan Mauler against my girlfriend last night off a Hornet Sting. Good times, she didn't see it coming being that I had already played all my bolts in the deck earlier in the game and I only had one red open.
Also a bad idea is to roast people for their opinion of the appropriateness of the post in question when your entire defense is based on your opinion of the appropriateness of the post.
I like direct damage bleeding over to green. It fits with Green being one of Red's allies (Red being king of direct damage), and ties into older cards like Hurricane or Umaro Bee Sting. Furthermore, it ties into Desert Twister, a 6 mana kill-anything. Green sure as hell can kill stuff.... even creatures.... but it has to pay a good bit of mana to do so. Or at least, it gets a much weaker effect than the color that's best at it.
I love hornet sting, and I love leaf arrow. Both are awesome limited cards. Do not underestimate them.
hmm, yes, that's true. A single card from M11 and another card from a set released three years ago is indicative of a trend. I agree.
Seriously though - if "breaking the color pie" becomes a green thing then that is only because what Green does is so restricted that WotC has to do so to print actual interesting green cards.
Funny you should say that as Green is the best color at playing cards that arent it (Birds of Paradise, Kodama's Reach...etc)
Seems to me Hornet sting just skips the middleman for a bit of a mana premium
You are making way too much out of this one, I think. You don't have to use latin to make points. Plain english is probably better.
It appears to me you are accusing him of using circular logic. You assert that he says "since there is green direct damage in a fantasy setting, why can't there be direct damage in this fantasy setting?" (And then you call him a name, but I won't factor that into my reasoning.)
You ask for examples of green dealing damage with insects through magic. Of course no other game will have a slice of the color pie exactly like Magic's green. But D&D was mentioned, and I think there is something to that.
In D&D 4th edition, the Druid has the "Primal" power source, which is describes as "Powers that draw on the spirits of nature that pervade the world."
Here are a few Druid powers that deal damage with insects:
Swarming Locusts (level 1)
Stining Cloud (level 1)
Fog of Insects (level 1)
Flowing Swarm (level 3)
Plague of Locusts (level 7)
Poison Sting (level 7)
Well... They exist. And in a setting managed by WoTC.
You might still wonder, "What does this have to do with Magic? This is something else."
Much of what Magic had used to be something else. Goblins, elves, wizards, etc. Where do you draw the line? If Magic was not allowed to draw inspiration from outside sources, it would certainly not be the game it is today.
... Actually, thinking along this line reinforces my thought of green being able to hit attacking creatures. Wasps and other insects don't typically go out and randomly attack other animals. Instead the other animals intrude or disturb the insects' hives and then the insects attack them. The same is true for a lot of wild animals (bears, cats, dogs, etc). Wild animals fight in mostly in two situations: hunting for food (Tracker), and protecting their territory (reflavored Sandstorm).
There is no plain English for the technical point I wanted to make. Arguments are the subject matter of philosophy, which has retained certain latin phrases in its discourse. The translation for petitio principii doesn't make sense and would be no help.
"Circular logic" isn't plain English. Every statement draws on expertise from the speakers, if it says anything about stuff. I might as well say exactly what I meant.
Inspiration is different from revelation.
But, before that, my response isn't "What does this have to do with Magic? This is something else." It is, "Those spells have maximum effective ranges. Review them."
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
I'm finding it hard to say anything about what you just wrote that isn't going to get me an infraction. G for 1 damage is fine for flavor. I'm assuming you know that allied colors bleed a little every now and then. Green gets trick instant spells once a block. While MaRo may have objected, the vox populi of R&D obviously liked the card.
Standard - None | Commander[EDH] - The Mimeoplasm | Legacy - Mono-W 60 Land Basic
See? I had to look up what petitio principii meant, and it looks like I got the wrong definition. I wish you had used plain english to make your point, because I misinterpreted you.
I also don't understand this.
I was talking about the flavor, no need to shift the argument's topic. There are spells that druids cast that damage directly using insects. If you don't question the validity of their flavor. I suppose the discussion is done.
1st: Flavor exceptions have existed and have been accepted in green before.
2nd: Interesting how this thread was already several pages long before MaRo's statements were brought up.
Let me rephrase the statement, so it fits with the rest of what I brought up even after being taken out of context:
As a special treatment, now I will provide a few cards to illustrate the point (feel free to marvel at how good they fit the color pie):
Instant
Target player gains X life.
"These long battles have left their marks on me. How I long for the times when I was young and capable. Let's bring them back!" —Xerech, elder chronomancer
Instant
Target player gains 3 life.
"Fetch me another steak!" —Maxti, pyromancer
Instant
Destroy target nonartifact creature.
"Let's put some of them on ice for later!" —Tamix, cryomancer
Creature - Lizard
Shroud
~ can't be blocked by creatures with flying.
Their skin is specialized on recreating the patterns of the rocky surfaces in their home mountains - but wherever it skitters it still will look like a rock.
2/1
Sorcery
Return target creature to its owner's hand.
Yeah, run home to mommy!
Instant
Copy target spell or ability.
The Taori don't believe in the sin of greed, so their first reaction to any blessing is to thank their god and ask for more.
Instant
~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
It was only then—to his infinite sorrow—that Gork realized hornets don't make honey.
Oh, and it propably nis no good idea to use any of the following as an argument in favor of Hornet Sting:
(1.) Cards older than yore.
(2.) TS-block cards that were specifically created to emulate cards of yore while viloating the modern color pie.
(3.) Cards that already received the same "Does not fit the modern pie"-reaction as Hornet Sting (especially if this sentiment has *also* received vocal support by MaRo).
(4.) Restricted variants of the ability (e. g. everyone knows Leaf Arrow exists - still it is the restriction that defines the card as green).
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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first of, its just a game. A game you dont control in how its created or deployed.
Secondly, why??? why does it even matter?
you swear like your in the correct forum to whine and cry about it if you know your typing will go in vain...
in the end, its just a game. who cares.
Seems like your just arguing for the sake of argument here... Flavor exceptions in green are almost exclusively very old or from time spiral block time/color shifted cards, BOP is one of the only modern examples I can think of and they still tried to get rid of it just before Ravnica block... they just realized that it was one of the few cards green had been getting in every core set that was good and that removing it crippled the color badly. And yes, many people were debating the point before Maro was brought up. I brought him up because he will have a larger impact on this debate than anyone in this forum ever will...
Agree with points 1,2 and 4... cards in those categories are not good examples.
Point 3 is a bit confusing, the whole reason many people are defending Hornet Sting is because Maro complained about it while completely support many other modern cards that violated the color pie just as badly or worse.
I, and I think many others feel that some occasional color pie bleed is ok, as long as it doesn't outclass the colors that are supposed to get the ability in question, it's flavorfully justified and as long as it's rare.
Maro apparently also feels this way, but only toward non-green colors. My primary beef with the reaction toward this card is Maro's reaction... there will always be people in forums who take either side. When a guy who's the head of R&D is nonchalantly hypocritical about the way he handles the color pie for different colors I take issue with it, since it will most certainly affect the way that the game is designed in the future.
No, but they are not mono-red or mono-blue. If you were to make that statement then the Solifuge is an excellent example. Mono-green haste is not especially common either...
Other than that I think Hornet Sting is just fine. It's shock, but since it's green it only deals one damage. Perfectly fine, and justified flavorwise. As to why they chose to print it, I got no idea.
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I'm going to guess Harmonize. An awful lot of players were bitterly opposed to the idea of Green getting a draw source that, for once, wasn't complete garbage. Defenses of the card got pretty metaphysical.
Don't forget Groundbreaker
But yeah people should quit complaining about this.
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hmm, yes, that's true. A single card from M11 and another card from a set released three years ago is indicative of a trend. I agree.
Seriously though - if "breaking the color pie" becomes a green thing then that is only because what Green does is so restricted that WotC has to do so to print actual interesting green cards.
Shards of awful never
This is going to be my answer to the other part I'm quoting.
I mean by "Inspiration isn't revelation" that what was said, about drawing inspiration from, say, the druid class, is entirely immaterial to settling if Hornet Sting is right or not.
It was my diplomatic way of sidestepping the accusation "that only looks like it advances the argument, but it doesn't." Saying you can look at druids in fantasy to be inspired for Green design, and saying something about what designs *are* Green by looking at druids in fantasy, are as different as saying that you can get your scientific theories from reading tea leaves, and that you can justify scientific theories from reading tea leaves.
I won't deny you can get an idea from reading tea leaves, tossing sticks, playing word association, or acid-tripping and then having wild passionate threesomes. But the way you check an idea is where the method counts.
The post I first quoted did, as I see, absolutely nothing, in the end, to argue that Hornet Sting is right as Green.
The Druid gets into combat with those targets. It is threatened by those creatures it can possibly target with such spells, over the span of time which is reasonable to say is the parallel of a combat phase in Magic. This makes it no different from a Druid creature's power, in Magic's system.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
i like twisting of the pie. damnation and psionic blast are two of my favorite cards.
This, I disagree with. You could take a Druid spell like Swarming Locusts, which deals damage and make a magic card out of it called Swarming Locusts, which deals damage. They aren't quite as different from one another as gravity is from and tea.
Hornet Sting is absolutely not in green's pie. Mechanically, it's a wreck. From a flavor standpoint, it's been done in other games and works of fiction without raising any eyebrows.
Well, sure. But so do wizards that cast lightning bolt or fireball. With things like Hornet Sting, just like Lightning Bolt, it is a planeswalker (the original kind, the player) casting a spell. He is also putting himself in harm's way. He can be targeted by things like Lava Axe. He can also be hurt in melee, like from the bite of Tundra Wolves.
I love hornet sting, and I love leaf arrow. Both are awesome limited cards. Do not underestimate them.
Funny you should say that as Green is the best color at playing cards that arent it (Birds of Paradise, Kodama's Reach...etc)
Seems to me Hornet sting just skips the middleman for a bit of a mana premium