THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
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Expedition Map really is a problem too. Colorless tutors Have SFM not taught why tutors are bad. It gives them consistency that is not really fair.
I'm sorry, but did you really just compare Expedition Map to STONEFORGE MYSTIC? Tutoring a land is not the same thing as tutoring an equipment. The tutor ability on SFM was not the problem with the card so much as the ability to play uncounterable instant speed equipment for 2.
You guys are so funny. 12 Post has the least stable mana base of any deck in the format. Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon rip it a new one. Tec Edge + Crucible of Worlds slow it down a ton. Anathemancer and Fulminator Mage give it all kinds of fits. It is not the boogie man you think it is. Don't be afraid. Just win.
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You guys are so funny. 12 Post has the least stable mana base of any deck in the format. Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon rip it a new one. Tec Edge + Crucible of Worlds slow it down a ton. Anathemancer and Fulminator Mage give it all kinds of fits. It is not the boogie man you think it is. Don't be afraid. Just win.
Ah right, and those cards fit in any deck of course.
Oh wait, no they don't.
Indeed. It's no fun at all. It's not the only deck that makes the format less to no fun to play. Hive Mind is up there as well. Cards like blood moon, same thing. It's all so incredibly passive. One card that shuts down a whole deck. Or basically cheating to get 8+ mana on turn 4. Or dropping Hive mind on turn 3...
Decks like these don't need much skill to play. The games I've come across are basically about who wins the dice roll and then just play lands, gain life, destroy land, drop sundering titan, gg.
Or T1, play land, rite of flame, rite of flame, blood moon + 1 mana creature.
Or T3 rite of flame, rite of flame, seething song, hive mind, pact.
See the pattern? I really hope they make drastic changes to the format. I'm already building/testing/buying a legacy deck because that format is so much more fun (and harder/more intelligent) to play at this point.
12 post is easily hated with the right cards. "But OH NO I can't run those cards in every single deck I want to play!" Well guess what, every deck has its good and bad matchups. Do I want to be playing R/U Pyromancer Combo vs 12 post? No. I also don't want to be playing vs RDW with my 12 post, and R/U Pyromancer does better vs it. It's absolutely stupid to think that a deck is dominant or format-warping because you can't beat it. The tools are there.
And yes, as of yesterday I'm playing the mono green version of 12 post. So far, I lose to mono red most of the time and Zoo about half the time. The deck is weak to land destruction and discard, among other things. In any format you have to be able to metagame. If you can't do this, it's your fault - not Wizards for not banning everything you don't like.
I wanted to play Scapeshift Valakut - which takes longer to get going than the 12 post decks. But NO, they banned Valakut, you don't see me crying about it.
There are plenty of cards that answer this deck, and they are good vs other decks as well. Stigma Lasher or Flames of the Blood Hand for Glimmerpost if you're so scared of it, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, and Molten Rain are good as well. Thoughtseize, MEMORICIDE for their Eldrazi, seriously the problem here isn't a lack of answers, it's a lack of sense.
Ah right, and those cards fit in any deck of course.
Oh wait, no they don't.
They don't have to fit in every deck. They just have to fit in enough decks to make it hard for 12Post to navigate its way to the top 8. If there's enough hate out there, decks that can't play Moon Effects or Quarter/Edge + Crucible won't have to.
Don't want to sound like a broken record, but modern doesn't have nearly the same power of denial/disrcuption that legacy has. And I said it before, even in this topic I think: combo decks like high tide are insanely hard to play well. It takes real skill to master that combo deck. In case of splinter twin and hive mind there's not much to think about, now is there?
I have to agree with the posters above though. Every deck has its bad match ups. It just seems that control decks have a lot more bad matchups than any other archetype at this point. The combo decks are just really anoying to test new deck ideas against. And it doesn't make this format as fun as legacy, in that the combo's are just way too easy to pull of. But that's just my opinion.
I'm sorry, but did you really just compare Expedition Map to STONEFORGE MYSTIC? Tutoring a land is not the same thing as tutoring an equipment. The tutor ability on SFM was not the problem with the card so much as the ability to play uncounterable instant speed equipment for 2.
A tutor is a tutor. I stand by my quote. Their seem to be no lack of experts on these forums. How many times have you played against 12 post? I have plenty and believe you me expidition map in that deck does the same thing that SFM mystic did in cawblade it gives them the consistency of getting what they need to win when they need it.
Tutors are bad general and this one is no exception. At least stoneforge forced you to play white. This is colorless to boot
there should be a plethora of decks, bad matchups, autostomp matchups, mediocre matchups.
12 post isn't the problem, i mean, at it's earliest it's setting up on t3 and going on t4. it's not 'awkward' in the sense you don't get to play the game. it's awkward in the sense that you have to respond quickly... by t3 you can drop an ensnaring bridge, blood moon, bbe//bust... and especially against the mono-g version, it's fast, but disruptable, mono-u is slower, but resilient.
Thus is the nature of combo decks, and people will continue to QQ ad infinitem until wizards bans combo because 'it's unfair and too many people don't like it' (p.s. that's a joke).
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I play mostly combo decks. I have played 12 post extensively in legacy. In legacy the deck wasn't unfair due to the amount of mainboard hate most decks had, and the speed of the format.
In modern, it requires awkward sideboards and warps the format in the same way dredge would if it wasn't nerfed as bad as jigglypuff's rest. It sucks, and requires decks to splash colors, and get hit by the hate aimed at it. Mono red, LD, and post are the best decks so long as post is around. And the first two are fair decks that lose to other fair decks. Oh, and mill hurts it the way it hurt valakut in standard. Well except for eldrazi and all which requires mill decks to run graveyard removal main.
The deck doesn't need to be banned, but rather a light nerf. Again, glimmerpost is useless elsewhere, and without it, eightpost was almost a legacy deck. It will be on par with other decks, and actually be fun to play with or against again.
There is no wat it will be a deck if Glimmerpost is banned. Aggro players (not necessarily you) are really starting to get on my nerves. They had the best control decks nerfed by the ban list and now they want to destroy one of the good control decks that is life. Hurr durr magic should be about turning creatures sideways!!!!!
A tutor is a tutor. I stand by my quote. Their seem to be no lack of experts on these forums. How many times have you played against 12 post? I have plenty and believe you me expidition map in that deck does the same thing that SFM mystic did in cawblade it gives them the consistency of getting what they need to win when they need it.
Tutors are bad general and this one is no exception. At least stoneforge forced you to play white. This is colorless to boot
SFM didn't just tutor an equipment. It also cheated equipment into play, allowing you to completely bypass its mana cost and force it through countermagic without a second thought. Tutoring is one of the strongest abilities in the game, but so is cheating cards into play. Expedition Map only does one, and SFM does both at a cheaper cost AND a body.
Aaron Forsythe compared SFM to Tinker in its similarity (does both tutoring and bypassing mana costs on the same card), and I honestly believe it's a fair comparison. If Expedition Map directly put the land directly into play ala Tinker, then you might have an argument.
I have to agree with the posters above though. Every deck has its bad match ups. It just seems that control decks have a lot more bad matchups than any other archetype at this point. The combo decks are just really anoying to test new deck ideas against. And it doesn't make this format as fun as legacy, in that the combo's are just way too easy to pull of. But that's just my opinion.
This is a serious generalization that neglects a lot of Magic's history. Since the beginning of competitive Magic, combo decks have had varying levels of difficulty in their execution. Some of them are quite easy, like Trix (Donate/Illusions of Grandeur) or Fruity Pebbles (Play a Phyrexian Walker while you have an Enduring Renewal out. Use Goblin Bombardment to sacrifice the Walker, return it to your hand, re-cast it, and repeat). Legacy has plenty of simple combo decks that do not require complex play decision trees. Painter's Servant/Grindstone is about as mindless as it gets. So is Natural Order and Progenitus, or Show and Tell and Hive Mind/Emrakul.
Oh yes, there are complicated combos as well (ANT, Iggy Pop, Solidarity, Belcher, Spanish Inquisition, etc.), but those are alongside the simple ones. All formats have all levels of combo, a fact that history has always testified to.
Let's look at Modern to see how this works out. The bannings killed combos on both side of the equation. It killed simple combos like Hypergenesis and Dark Depths, and it killed complicated ones like Combo Elves and Dredge (if you don't think Dredge is complicated, try playing it at a large tournament in games 2 and 3 and see how it goes). Even after the bannings, there are still combo decks on both sides of the fence. Hive Mind, Project Melira, Living End, Kiki-Twin, and Enduring Ideal are all quite simple, although all of the decks become a bit more complicated when fighting through hate. Curio Elves, Pyromancer's Ascension, Second Sunrise, and Grapeshot Storm are a lot more difficult to pilot well, especially through hate and against control decks.
The bottom line is that all formats have all levels of combo. If you are in favor of banning all "simple" combos, and all "simple" Magic cards, then I really don't have much to say. It's a bad idea, and that's that. History has repeatedly shown that Magic needs all tiers of combos to survive, especially in a large, non-rotating format. Degenerate combos should absolutely be destroyed, but in the above paragraph, I listed about a dozen decks that are not nearly as horrible as Hypergenesis or Combo Elves with Glimpse of Nature would have been. If experiences are being shaped by the Trice or MWS metagame, then I encourage you to seek out a different testing group. Those metagames have never been representative of the broader metagame.
There are plenty of cards that answer this deck, and they are good vs other decks as well. Stigma Lasher or Flames of the Blood Hand for Glimmerpost if you're so scared of it, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, and Molten Rain are good as well. Thoughtseize, MEMORICIDE for their Eldrazi, seriously the problem here isn't a lack of answers, it's a lack of sense.
seriously? The cards you named with the exception of thought seize and blood moon are rediculous. No one will play that crap, not even in their sideboard. It will not be easily hated because we don't have wastelands. Land destruction isn't an answer as that will only come in turn 3 which is too late. Thoughtseize will only slow them down. Blood moon will probably get bounced at end of turn then they cast emrakul for the win.
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ktenshin, Beast Within is much better than Krosan Grip anyway, which deals with any permanent, but that's not the point. I'm just saying the deck has easy answers to the hate for it. Never did I insinuate it would always draw them. You put those words in my mouth to pick a fight or something. Are you trying to prove the deck is bad? Because it isn't. Congrats on beating it with Jund a lot. Do you want a cookie? I have several varieties.
Honestly I hope your build is successful for you, because I don't know you and have no reason to wish you ill. But just because aggro with discard beats mana ramp a lot doesn't discount mana ramp.
ktenshin, Beast Within is much better than Krosan Grip anyway, which deals with any permanent, but that's not the point. I'm just saying the deck has easy answers to the hate for it. Never did I insinuate it would always draw them. You put those words in my mouth to pick a fight or something. Are you trying to prove the deck is bad? Because it isn't. Congrats on beating it with Jund a lot. Do you want a cookie? I have several varieties.
Honestly I hope your build is successful for you, because I don't know you and have no reason to wish you ill. But just because aggro with discard beats mana ramp a lot doesn't discount mana ramp.
I am a little shocked that you took this tone, given that our exchange was about two pages ago and that it did not contain a single offensive term or phrase. So I am a little confused how my pointing out all the cards that can be wielded against Twelvepost, and the decks that were once broken, is in some way an attempt to "pick a fight". I play the deck, as you can probably tell from my posts on this thread or just the signature, and I am just trying to highlight its weaknesses. And the cookie comment? Really?
As to my post on that previous page, every deck in the format has answers to those answers others will use. Zoo has problems with Blood Moon. So it uses Pridemage and Green Sun's Zenith. Hive Mind has Gaddock Teeg issues, so it rolls with Slagstorm or Magma Jet. Dragonstorm can't really beat an Ethersworn Canonist, so it also runs removal. We could go on for pages listing all the hate that is used in this format, and all of the countermeasures decks take against that hate. Of course Twelvepost has the same tools! But like with any other deck in Modern or Legacy or any other format, Twelvepost does not always draw those tools, does not always have the mana to cast those tools, does not always resolve those tools, and does not always have ways of stopping those tools from being discarded. So I was acknowledging your point that yes, Twelvepost has answers. But it cannot always use those answers, just like any deck in the format cannot always use its answers. And that balances the format.
I have repeatedly stated numerous ways of beating Twelvepost, just as there are numerous ways of beating any combo-esque deck in any format. Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon are both highly maindeckable in this format, and they do wonders against Twelvepost. Land Destruction has an excellent matchup against Twelvepost, along with other control decks and midrange decks. Then there's BW Smallpox, BG Deathcloud, BW Midrange, dedicated combo decks, and all the other builds people can wield that have a decent shot at beating Twelvepost. The same goes for the other combo decks in Modern, each with their own answers that also are relevant against other decks.
All I have been saying from the beginning is that Twelvepost is just not that strong. It was not that strong in Overextended, nor has it been strong in the sample Modern tournaments over the summer. It places, yes. But it is not out of control. On this forum in particular, there is a general outrage against frontrunning decks. But it is not limited to Twelvepost, which hints at some larger problem. "Zoo is out of control! Ban Goyf/Nacatl!", "Hive Mind is nuts! Ban Hive Mind!", "Twelvepost is too good! Ban Glimmerpost!". We don't see this sort of reaction on the seasoned eternal boards like The Source, or even the Legacy section of this forum. This all just seems a natural reaction to the format, where people just don't get that some decks are better than others, and those better decks constitute a tier 1. Twelvepost is part of that tier 1, but it is not a Caw-Blade, not a 2004 Affinity, not a Flash Hulk, and not even a Hypergenesis.
From the looks of a lot of these comments, Im getting a sense that a lot of you aren't even play testing modern decks. have you seen some of the zaniness on modo/trice? we're talking combo decks dropping 6-10 goblins by turn 2, wacky pyromancer ascension decks that turn 2 banefire for 20+. The list goes on, and on, and on.
seriously? The cards you named with the exception of thought seize and blood moon are rediculous. No one will play that crap, not even in their sideboard. It will not be easily hated because we don't have wastelands. Land destruction isn't an answer as that will only come in turn 3 which is too late. Thoughtseize will only slow them down. Blood moon will probably get bounced at end of turn then they cast emrakul for the win.
Why are these cards bad? Because you don't want to use them? Give me a break. Every card has its use, just because you don't want to find the room to fit in doesn't mean it's bad.
A few counterpoints:
1. Flames of the Blood Hand and Stigma Lasher are awesome options for what they do. Several strong archetypes are weak to mono red. Sideboarding in lifegain is one very good way to handle mono red. Besides that, Glimmerpost's lifegain is being cited as one of the stongest things that 12-post has going for it. Blood Hand also does 4 to the face which is pretty good in red. Is this really that complicated?
2. Molten Rain is good. In the metagame I've been seeing, maining Blood Moon is probably the right call but as things shape up you'll want it in side, but Molten Rain is good for main as most decks are affected by it (like all the good ones) and it still deals damage. Just more support for my opinion that if 12-post becomes dominant, mono-red will just rise up to knock it down. Even with a god hand, any iteration of 12-post isn't winning at turn 3, so saying turn 3 is too slow is just plain wrong. Even using Amulet of Vigor (not everyone does and there are sound arguments for both side), the best you can do for mono green is Primeval Titan turn 3 (which requires a nearly perfect hand/draw), mono blue wins like turn 5, these are with god hands. Taking out a Cloudpost on your turn 3 goes a long way to setting them back, especially in the kind of deck you will find Molten Rain in.
3. Thoughtseize only slows them down.... slowing them down is what you want to do, so you can win. If you want to win vs a matchup by only using one card, then I hope you aren't one of the people in here saying 12-post 'takes no skill'. However...
4. While Memoricide won't win you the game outright, naming Emrakul is a terrific start. Also good vs combo decks in general (Dragonstorm, Hive Mind, etc.).
5. I didn't even think of Ensnaring Bridge. Pretty good idea.
TL,DR: 12-post can be hated easily. You just have to not be lazy and dedicate sb slots to it. If you think 12-post is awesome, play mono red or something else that is aggressive and can support Blood Moon effects, and win (I've lost to one out of 10 players playing RDW so far, and his build was awful - no Goblin Guide for example). Then, when another deck starts to dominate red decks (and continue a cycle that anyone with a clue can see always happens in a healthy format), you can cry that that particular deck is op instead.
Why are these cards bad? Because you don't want to use them? Give me a break. Every card has its use, just because you don't want to find the room to fit in doesn't mean it's bad.
A few counterpoints:
1. Flames of the Blood Hand and Stigma Lasher are awesome options for what they do. Several strong archetypes are weak to mono red. Sideboarding in lifegain is one very good way to handle mono red. Besides that, Glimmerpost's lifegain is being cited as one of the stongest things that 12-post has going for it. Blood Hand also does 4 to the face which is pretty good in red. Is this really that complicated?
2. Molten Rain is good. In the metagame I've been seeing, maining Blood Moon is probably the right call but as things shape up you'll want it in side, but Molten Rain is good for main as most decks are affected by it (like all the good ones) and it still deals damage. Just more support for my opinion that if 12-post becomes dominant, mono-red will just rise up to knock it down. Even with a god hand, any iteration of 12-post isn't winning at turn 3, so saying turn 3 is too slow is just plain wrong. Even using Amulet of Vigor (not everyone does and there are sound arguments for both side), the best you can do for mono green is Primeval Titan turn 3 (which requires a nearly perfect hand/draw), mono blue wins like turn 5, these are with god hands. Taking out a Cloudpost on your turn 3 goes a long way to setting them back, especially in the kind of deck you will find Molten Rain in.
3. Thoughtseize only slows them down.... slowing them down is what you want to do, so you can win. If you want to win vs a matchup by only using one card, then I hope you aren't one of the people in here saying 12-post 'takes no skill'. However...
4. While Memoricide won't win you the game outright, naming Emrakul is a terrific start. Also good vs combo decks in general (Dragonstorm, Hive Mind, etc.).
5. I didn't even think of Ensnaring Bridge. Pretty good idea.
TL,DR: 12-post can be hated easily. You just have to not be lazy and dedicate sb slots to it. If you think 12-post is awesome, play mono red or something else that is aggressive and can support Blood Moon effects, and win (I've lost to one out of 10 players playing RDW so far, and his build was awful - no Goblin Guide for example). Then, when another deck starts to dominate red decks (and continue a cycle that anyone with a clue can see always happens in a healthy format), you can cry that that particular deck is op instead.
When you have to dedicate 3-5 sideboard slots for ONE deck, that is a problem.
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When you have to dedicate 3-5 sideboard slots for ONE deck, that is a problem.
No it isn't. The point of a sideboard is to have cards in it that improve specific match ups. If your deck is bad against storm combo, add more discard. If your deck is bad against 12post, add some land hate. Bad against Zoo? Firespout.
Having 3-5 sideboard cards for one match is what a sideboard is for.
It isn't a 15 card "catch all" with Artifact and Enchantment hate.
That might be one of the most misinformed posts I've ever read.
Especially when you consider that things that are good against 12post are good against a lot of modern decks. IE Blood Moon.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
When you have to dedicate 3-5 sideboard slots for ONE deck, that is a problem.
This is completely incorrect. When you have to dedicate 3-5 MAINBOARD slots for ONE deck, that is a problem. Having to dedicate 3-5 sideboard slots for one deck is exactly what a sideboard is for.
No it isn't. The point of a sideboard is to have cards in it that improve specific match ups. If your deck is bad against storm combo, add more discard. If your deck is bad against 12post, add some land hate. Bad against Zoo? Firespout.
Having 3-5 sideboard cards for one match is what a sideboard is for.
It isn't a 15 card "catch all" with Artifact and Enchantment hate.
That might be one of the most misinformed posts I've ever read.
Especially when you consider that things that are good against 12post are good against a lot of modern decks. IE Blood Moon.
No, having 3-5 slots for a single archetype is what a sideboard is for. Not a single deck. This is half the reason dredge got nerfed so hard.
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I'm sorry, but did you really just compare Expedition Map to STONEFORGE MYSTIC? Tutoring a land is not the same thing as tutoring an equipment. The tutor ability on SFM was not the problem with the card so much as the ability to play uncounterable instant speed equipment for 2.
Ah right, and those cards fit in any deck of course.
Oh wait, no they don't.
right because combo decks don't exist in legacy
And yes, as of yesterday I'm playing the mono green version of 12 post. So far, I lose to mono red most of the time and Zoo about half the time. The deck is weak to land destruction and discard, among other things. In any format you have to be able to metagame. If you can't do this, it's your fault - not Wizards for not banning everything you don't like.
I wanted to play Scapeshift Valakut - which takes longer to get going than the 12 post decks. But NO, they banned Valakut, you don't see me crying about it.
There are plenty of cards that answer this deck, and they are good vs other decks as well. Stigma Lasher or Flames of the Blood Hand for Glimmerpost if you're so scared of it, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, and Molten Rain are good as well. Thoughtseize, MEMORICIDE for their Eldrazi, seriously the problem here isn't a lack of answers, it's a lack of sense.
They don't have to fit in every deck. They just have to fit in enough decks to make it hard for 12Post to navigate its way to the top 8. If there's enough hate out there, decks that can't play Moon Effects or Quarter/Edge + Crucible won't have to.
Don't want to sound like a broken record, but modern doesn't have nearly the same power of denial/disrcuption that legacy has. And I said it before, even in this topic I think: combo decks like high tide are insanely hard to play well. It takes real skill to master that combo deck. In case of splinter twin and hive mind there's not much to think about, now is there?
I have to agree with the posters above though. Every deck has its bad match ups. It just seems that control decks have a lot more bad matchups than any other archetype at this point. The combo decks are just really anoying to test new deck ideas against. And it doesn't make this format as fun as legacy, in that the combo's are just way too easy to pull of. But that's just my opinion.
Tutors are bad general and this one is no exception. At least stoneforge forced you to play white. This is colorless to boot
Insert witty phrase here
there should be a plethora of decks, bad matchups, autostomp matchups, mediocre matchups.
12 post isn't the problem, i mean, at it's earliest it's setting up on t3 and going on t4. it's not 'awkward' in the sense you don't get to play the game. it's awkward in the sense that you have to respond quickly... by t3 you can drop an ensnaring bridge, blood moon, bbe//bust... and especially against the mono-g version, it's fast, but disruptable, mono-u is slower, but resilient.
Thus is the nature of combo decks, and people will continue to QQ ad infinitem until wizards bans combo because 'it's unfair and too many people don't like it' (p.s. that's a joke).
There is no wat it will be a deck if Glimmerpost is banned. Aggro players (not necessarily you) are really starting to get on my nerves. They had the best control decks nerfed by the ban list and now they want to destroy one of the good control decks that is life. Hurr durr magic should be about turning creatures sideways!!!!!
SFM didn't just tutor an equipment. It also cheated equipment into play, allowing you to completely bypass its mana cost and force it through countermagic without a second thought. Tutoring is one of the strongest abilities in the game, but so is cheating cards into play. Expedition Map only does one, and SFM does both at a cheaper cost AND a body.
Aaron Forsythe compared SFM to Tinker in its similarity (does both tutoring and bypassing mana costs on the same card), and I honestly believe it's a fair comparison. If Expedition Map directly put the land directly into play ala Tinker, then you might have an argument.
This is a serious generalization that neglects a lot of Magic's history. Since the beginning of competitive Magic, combo decks have had varying levels of difficulty in their execution. Some of them are quite easy, like Trix (Donate/Illusions of Grandeur) or Fruity Pebbles (Play a Phyrexian Walker while you have an Enduring Renewal out. Use Goblin Bombardment to sacrifice the Walker, return it to your hand, re-cast it, and repeat). Legacy has plenty of simple combo decks that do not require complex play decision trees. Painter's Servant/Grindstone is about as mindless as it gets. So is Natural Order and Progenitus, or Show and Tell and Hive Mind/Emrakul.
Oh yes, there are complicated combos as well (ANT, Iggy Pop, Solidarity, Belcher, Spanish Inquisition, etc.), but those are alongside the simple ones. All formats have all levels of combo, a fact that history has always testified to.
Let's look at Modern to see how this works out. The bannings killed combos on both side of the equation. It killed simple combos like Hypergenesis and Dark Depths, and it killed complicated ones like Combo Elves and Dredge (if you don't think Dredge is complicated, try playing it at a large tournament in games 2 and 3 and see how it goes). Even after the bannings, there are still combo decks on both sides of the fence. Hive Mind, Project Melira, Living End, Kiki-Twin, and Enduring Ideal are all quite simple, although all of the decks become a bit more complicated when fighting through hate. Curio Elves, Pyromancer's Ascension, Second Sunrise, and Grapeshot Storm are a lot more difficult to pilot well, especially through hate and against control decks.
The bottom line is that all formats have all levels of combo. If you are in favor of banning all "simple" combos, and all "simple" Magic cards, then I really don't have much to say. It's a bad idea, and that's that. History has repeatedly shown that Magic needs all tiers of combos to survive, especially in a large, non-rotating format. Degenerate combos should absolutely be destroyed, but in the above paragraph, I listed about a dozen decks that are not nearly as horrible as Hypergenesis or Combo Elves with Glimpse of Nature would have been. If experiences are being shaped by the Trice or MWS metagame, then I encourage you to seek out a different testing group. Those metagames have never been representative of the broader metagame.
-ktkenshinx-
seriously? The cards you named with the exception of thought seize and blood moon are rediculous. No one will play that crap, not even in their sideboard. It will not be easily hated because we don't have wastelands. Land destruction isn't an answer as that will only come in turn 3 which is too late. Thoughtseize will only slow them down. Blood moon will probably get bounced at end of turn then they cast emrakul for the win.
Honestly I hope your build is successful for you, because I don't know you and have no reason to wish you ill. But just because aggro with discard beats mana ramp a lot doesn't discount mana ramp.
I am a little shocked that you took this tone, given that our exchange was about two pages ago and that it did not contain a single offensive term or phrase. So I am a little confused how my pointing out all the cards that can be wielded against Twelvepost, and the decks that were once broken, is in some way an attempt to "pick a fight". I play the deck, as you can probably tell from my posts on this thread or just the signature, and I am just trying to highlight its weaknesses. And the cookie comment? Really?
As to my post on that previous page, every deck in the format has answers to those answers others will use. Zoo has problems with Blood Moon. So it uses Pridemage and Green Sun's Zenith. Hive Mind has Gaddock Teeg issues, so it rolls with Slagstorm or Magma Jet. Dragonstorm can't really beat an Ethersworn Canonist, so it also runs removal. We could go on for pages listing all the hate that is used in this format, and all of the countermeasures decks take against that hate. Of course Twelvepost has the same tools! But like with any other deck in Modern or Legacy or any other format, Twelvepost does not always draw those tools, does not always have the mana to cast those tools, does not always resolve those tools, and does not always have ways of stopping those tools from being discarded. So I was acknowledging your point that yes, Twelvepost has answers. But it cannot always use those answers, just like any deck in the format cannot always use its answers. And that balances the format.
I have repeatedly stated numerous ways of beating Twelvepost, just as there are numerous ways of beating any combo-esque deck in any format. Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon are both highly maindeckable in this format, and they do wonders against Twelvepost. Land Destruction has an excellent matchup against Twelvepost, along with other control decks and midrange decks. Then there's BW Smallpox, BG Deathcloud, BW Midrange, dedicated combo decks, and all the other builds people can wield that have a decent shot at beating Twelvepost. The same goes for the other combo decks in Modern, each with their own answers that also are relevant against other decks.
All I have been saying from the beginning is that Twelvepost is just not that strong. It was not that strong in Overextended, nor has it been strong in the sample Modern tournaments over the summer. It places, yes. But it is not out of control. On this forum in particular, there is a general outrage against frontrunning decks. But it is not limited to Twelvepost, which hints at some larger problem. "Zoo is out of control! Ban Goyf/Nacatl!", "Hive Mind is nuts! Ban Hive Mind!", "Twelvepost is too good! Ban Glimmerpost!". We don't see this sort of reaction on the seasoned eternal boards like The Source, or even the Legacy section of this forum. This all just seems a natural reaction to the format, where people just don't get that some decks are better than others, and those better decks constitute a tier 1. Twelvepost is part of that tier 1, but it is not a Caw-Blade, not a 2004 Affinity, not a Flash Hulk, and not even a Hypergenesis.
-ktkenshinx-
less QQ more shuffle and cut.
Why are these cards bad? Because you don't want to use them? Give me a break. Every card has its use, just because you don't want to find the room to fit in doesn't mean it's bad.
A few counterpoints:
1. Flames of the Blood Hand and Stigma Lasher are awesome options for what they do. Several strong archetypes are weak to mono red. Sideboarding in lifegain is one very good way to handle mono red. Besides that, Glimmerpost's lifegain is being cited as one of the stongest things that 12-post has going for it. Blood Hand also does 4 to the face which is pretty good in red. Is this really that complicated?
2. Molten Rain is good. In the metagame I've been seeing, maining Blood Moon is probably the right call but as things shape up you'll want it in side, but Molten Rain is good for main as most decks are affected by it (like all the good ones) and it still deals damage. Just more support for my opinion that if 12-post becomes dominant, mono-red will just rise up to knock it down. Even with a god hand, any iteration of 12-post isn't winning at turn 3, so saying turn 3 is too slow is just plain wrong. Even using Amulet of Vigor (not everyone does and there are sound arguments for both side), the best you can do for mono green is Primeval Titan turn 3 (which requires a nearly perfect hand/draw), mono blue wins like turn 5, these are with god hands. Taking out a Cloudpost on your turn 3 goes a long way to setting them back, especially in the kind of deck you will find Molten Rain in.
3. Thoughtseize only slows them down.... slowing them down is what you want to do, so you can win. If you want to win vs a matchup by only using one card, then I hope you aren't one of the people in here saying 12-post 'takes no skill'. However...
4. While Memoricide won't win you the game outright, naming Emrakul is a terrific start. Also good vs combo decks in general (Dragonstorm, Hive Mind, etc.).
5. I didn't even think of Ensnaring Bridge. Pretty good idea.
TL,DR: 12-post can be hated easily. You just have to not be lazy and dedicate sb slots to it. If you think 12-post is awesome, play mono red or something else that is aggressive and can support Blood Moon effects, and win (I've lost to one out of 10 players playing RDW so far, and his build was awful - no Goblin Guide for example). Then, when another deck starts to dominate red decks (and continue a cycle that anyone with a clue can see always happens in a healthy format), you can cry that that particular deck is op instead.
When you have to dedicate 3-5 sideboard slots for ONE deck, that is a problem.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
No it isn't. The point of a sideboard is to have cards in it that improve specific match ups. If your deck is bad against storm combo, add more discard. If your deck is bad against 12post, add some land hate. Bad against Zoo? Firespout.
Having 3-5 sideboard cards for one match is what a sideboard is for.
It isn't a 15 card "catch all" with Artifact and Enchantment hate.
That might be one of the most misinformed posts I've ever read.
Especially when you consider that things that are good against 12post are good against a lot of modern decks. IE Blood Moon.
This is completely incorrect. When you have to dedicate 3-5 MAINBOARD slots for ONE deck, that is a problem. Having to dedicate 3-5 sideboard slots for one deck is exactly what a sideboard is for.
Hurr durr Magic should be about playing Islands and saying go?
No, having 3-5 slots for a single archetype is what a sideboard is for. Not a single deck. This is half the reason dredge got nerfed so hard.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)