@Mangcho, I'm wondering how hybrid with frites works out, turn-wise. T4 flashback, bobo 2.0? and how did you select which creatures go in the grave? just wondering how useful the single iona/norn were, since I dont see a way to get them in the grave other than mulch/dredge. did you mulligan for at least 1 finisher (titan,iona,bobo, or norn)?
personally I really like the thought that between rites and S titan, your deck is 100% dredge resistant (i.e. anything that is milled can eventually come back).
Minor concern, but if you ever get to swinging with your titan, do you refuse to grab a land from the yard? Ideally you want those to be able to throw w/ assault.
I am definitely thinking that I might try to design something along these lines, though I still want to squeeze KotR in the build, she has synergies w/ titan and the land tutor package is hard for me to set aside.
I took Mangcho's 60 and edited it slightly. I don't have a few cards, like Iona, so I threw in Countryside Crusher's for now. Iona is the superior card, but I figured I'd test a few games before I invested more money into the deck.
Consistency so far? Great.
I was even taking silly hands, along the lines of:
2 Mulch, 1 Life from the Loam, 1 Faithless Looting, 3 Lands.
I won on turn 6, dealing 51 damage in one turn! Hah! Seems good even against decks with high life like Soul Sisters...
After digging turns 2 (Mulch), and turn 3 (Mulch, Looting), I had landed a Borby, Countryside Crusher, Sun Titan, and Unburial Rites in my yard, and still plenty of land hits from Mulch's and draw-steps. Turn 4 saw Unburial Rites on Borby; turn 5 saw me swinging with him for 7, and then casting Unburial Rites on Sun Titan, which then grabbed Countryside Crusher. Upkeep: Reveal 2 lands from Crusher, +2/+2, and then Dredge 3 from Life from the Loam, which +1/+1 again on him. After setting everything up, which I entered attack phase, I discarded 8 lands to Borby which dealt 24 damage, which gave Crusher +8/+8 so he was up to 14/14. Sun Titan was a 6/6, Borby was a 7/6... that's 51 damage... awww yeaahhh.
Once I can get an Iona and finish the sideboard, I'll definitely try this list more. I've only tried this deck a few times against friends, but most hands usually seem to work well, even against aggro which I first had my doubts. I haven't tested with sideboards/grave-hate yet though.
Thanks for the list, homie. Great creativity. Keep up the good work!
Here is a quick and basic comparison between Mancho's and Owen's decklist: Boborygmos Loam
What I really like about Mangcho's list is that there are more win conditions other than just Boborygmos, the Enraged.
What I don't like is that both Elesh Norn and Iona are not tutoreable (sp?). Also think Faithless Looting is a must in this deck. Honestly I don't know what to cut to make room for them.
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
While I am sure this list is horrible, I am curious whether splashing white just for Lingering Souls and better sideboard options is a viable strategy.
Private Mod Note
():
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
From my experience Lingering Souls almost never does anything.
It along with Bloodghast are sweet discard targets, but barely help win the game.
The way this deck is progressing looks like it wants to:
Dredge stuff --> Have lands in hand --> Reanimate Bobo (or Sun Titan, targeting Seismic Assault) --> Kill opponent.
But you spend the first X turns going:
Faithless Looting / Mulch.
Raven's Crime your hand.
Flame Jab all your creatures.
Life From the Loam ghost quarter/Tec Edge, over and over.
Just casting Life From the Loam, for purposes of dredging.
So far I haven't liked Abrupt Decay or Inquisition of Kozilek. They are just a 1-for-1's that have little synergy with the deck.
I love me some Smallpox but haven't tried it yet, I imagine double Black is often hard to get on turn 2.
My worst matchups have been blue decks. Uwr/Tron/UW. etc. They just counter my reanimation and burn me out.
So...
Drown in Filth (GB)
Instant
Choose target creature, then put the top 4 cards of your library into your graveyard, then that creature gets -1/-1 for each land card in your graveyard.
Basically reads "mill 4, destroy target creature" in this deck. Possibly good enough to make the cut? I'm going to test it for sure.
So...
Drown in Filth (GB)
Instant
Choose target creature, then put the top 4 cards of your library into your graveyard, then that creature gets -1/-1 for each land card in your graveyard.
Basically reads "mill 4, destroy target creature" in this deck. Possibly good enough to make the cut? I'm going to test it for sure.
It's got to compete with Abrupt Decay though, which can answer 85% of the creatures and 90% of commonly played graveyard hate.
It's great in Borbo Reanimator as a synergistic way to kill Deathrite early-game and Goyf mid-game, although it does suffer against combo and especially against Exarch Twin (where Abrupt Decay is worth a million bucks and Drown in Filth is worth a buck for offing Spellskite).
I'm trying to understand how the Borborygmos version of this deck works. I really, really don't like to rely only on him to win the game. That is why I like the idea to have other targets for Unburial Rites.
What I can not seem to understand, is how to fill the remaining slots. Do we want more removal to help us to get there? Do we want more creatures to have early pressure on the board?
- Pyroclasm: Great sweeper. Kills Shamans, Bobs, Tokens, GoST and many other relevant X/2 creatures. It's usually no good against Goyf
- Flame Jab: Excellent recurring burn spell, great for early board control. Is not that good mid and late game.
- Abrupt Decay: Hits almost every relevant card in the format (Liliana, Goyf, Smiter, Bob, Shaman, Clique, Plating, etc) at instant speed. Can't be countered. The downside is that if it hits the graveyard it's a death card.
- Darkblast: Another Dredge enabler. At instant speed can kill many relevant creatures (Shaman, Bob, most of the Affinity guys, mana dorks, etc). It's not so good in the mid / late game.
- Seismic Assault: Once paired with Life from the Loam this is one of the most efficient removal / damage engines of the game.
- Lightning Bolt: Even though is the best removal on the format, I'm not sure if is that good in this deck.
Creatures / recurring targets:
- Sun Titan: Synergizes well with Seismic Assault, Liliana and lands. Not much that we can recur with this guy (unless we play some other creatures as Eternal Witness or Countryside Crusher). Despite being a huge body with an excellent ability I'm really not sure if it fits this deck (really few recurring targets)
- Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: Most of the aggro decks fold to this card. Only if we could tutor for her.
- Iona, Shield of Emeria: Same as Elesh Norn
- Eternal Witness: Synergizes well with Sun Titan and allows us to grab cards like Seismic Assault, Abrupt Decay, Liliana, etc. I wouldn't want more than one though
- Wurmcoil Engine: Excellent against Jund and other mid range decks. Huge body with impressive abilities. It folds to Path tought.
Countryside Crusher)
- Kitchen Finks: Synergizes well with Sun Titan but I'm not really sure if we want this. Maybe a sideboard card.
- Countryside Crusher: Synergizes well with Sun Titan, but often is a win-more card (it can get pretty big though)
- Lingering Souls: Great value card. It can deal with pesky flyers (Affinity lands, Clique), chump block and even provide a decent clock. Can be discarded to Liliana and cast from the graveyard. Despite that, it's been reported to be a slow on this deck.
- Mulch: Helps to set up the graveyard and draw lands (which helps to hit our land drops and discard to Borbo, Seismic Assault, etc).
What do you guys think about it? Many thanks in advance!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
I didn't like having to rely on pyroclasm as the removal.
Yes there is also a darkblast and some Flame Jabs, I just feel like in this deck, you want every card to have some value in the graveyard.
If there is a choice to Dredge Life from the Loam or draw, the choice should almost always just be to dredge.
These cards are awesome, but if you don't draw them in your opening hand or off of a faithless looting, I feel like they are just dead in the graveyard.
Deathrite Shaman is the single most problematic card I've found facing this deck. Random graveyard hate out of the sideboard sucks too, but DRS stops your gameplan dead until he is removed, or your opponent is tapped out.
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
Sideboard full of one-ofs was only because I had no idea how open the field was going to be. Feels like the maindeck is so good against the majority of the aggro and mid-range decks that you don't need to sideboard very much, outside of anti-graveyard-hate. Anti-combo stuff was spread out to be flexible against graveyard-based combo (which deathrite shaman in the main is pretty good against as it is) and etb-based combo hate.
Seems like it plays pretty differently than the version I've been on. This looks kinda like BGx midrange decks (Jund/Junk) with more emphasis on graveyard Life From the Loam interaction instead of lots of traditional removal.
It does seem fun to play. How well did it perform?
Would you say it was better than traditional jund?
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
My WTB - EDH stuff
Minor concern, but if you ever get to swinging with your titan, do you refuse to grab a land from the yard? Ideally you want those to be able to throw w/ assault.
I am definitely thinking that I might try to design something along these lines, though I still want to squeeze KotR in the build, she has synergies w/ titan and the land tutor package is hard for me to set aside.
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
Consistency so far? Great.
I was even taking silly hands, along the lines of:
2 Mulch, 1 Life from the Loam, 1 Faithless Looting, 3 Lands.
I won on turn 6, dealing 51 damage in one turn! Hah! Seems good even against decks with high life like Soul Sisters...
Once I can get an Iona and finish the sideboard, I'll definitely try this list more. I've only tried this deck a few times against friends, but most hands usually seem to work well, even against aggro which I first had my doubts. I haven't tested with sideboards/grave-hate yet though.
Thanks for the list, homie. Great creativity. Keep up the good work!
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
What I really like about Mangcho's list is that there are more win conditions other than just Boborygmos, the Enraged.
What I don't like is that both Elesh Norn and Iona are not tutoreable (sp?). Also think Faithless Looting is a must in this deck. Honestly I don't know what to cut to make room for them.
I'm bored at work and I came up with this idea:
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodghast
Spells:
1 Darkblast
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Raven's Crime
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Lingering Souls
4 Seismic Assault
While I am sure this list is horrible, I am curious whether splashing white just for Lingering Souls and better sideboard options is a viable strategy.
It along with Bloodghast are sweet discard targets, but barely help win the game.
The way this deck is progressing looks like it wants to:
Dredge stuff --> Have lands in hand --> Reanimate Bobo (or Sun Titan, targeting Seismic Assault) --> Kill opponent.
But you spend the first X turns going:
Faithless Looting / Mulch.
Raven's Crime your hand.
Flame Jab all your creatures.
Life From the Loam ghost quarter/Tec Edge, over and over.
Just casting Life From the Loam, for purposes of dredging.
So far I haven't liked Abrupt Decay or Inquisition of Kozilek. They are just a 1-for-1's that have little synergy with the deck.
I love me some Smallpox but haven't tried it yet, I imagine double Black is often hard to get on turn 2.
My worst matchups have been blue decks. Uwr/Tron/UW. etc. They just counter my reanimation and burn me out.
Drown in Filth (GB)
Instant
Choose target creature, then put the top 4 cards of your library into your graveyard, then that creature gets -1/-1 for each land card in your graveyard.
Basically reads "mill 4, destroy target creature" in this deck. Possibly good enough to make the cut? I'm going to test it for sure.
It's got to compete with Abrupt Decay though, which can answer 85% of the creatures and 90% of commonly played graveyard hate.
It's great in Borbo Reanimator as a synergistic way to kill Deathrite early-game and Goyf mid-game, although it does suffer against combo and especially against Exarch Twin (where Abrupt Decay is worth a million bucks and Drown in Filth is worth a buck for offing Spellskite).
What I can not seem to understand, is how to fill the remaining slots. Do we want more removal to help us to get there? Do we want more creatures to have early pressure on the board?
This is what I learned so far:
4 Borborygmos Enraged
Spells:
4 Life from the Loam
4 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
3 Raven’s Crime
3 Liliana of the Veil
Removal:
- Pyroclasm: Great sweeper. Kills Shamans, Bobs, Tokens, GoST and many other relevant X/2 creatures. It's usually no good against Goyf
- Flame Jab: Excellent recurring burn spell, great for early board control. Is not that good mid and late game.
- Abrupt Decay: Hits almost every relevant card in the format (Liliana, Goyf, Smiter, Bob, Shaman, Clique, Plating, etc) at instant speed. Can't be countered. The downside is that if it hits the graveyard it's a death card.
- Darkblast: Another Dredge enabler. At instant speed can kill many relevant creatures (Shaman, Bob, most of the Affinity guys, mana dorks, etc). It's not so good in the mid / late game.
- Seismic Assault: Once paired with Life from the Loam this is one of the most efficient removal / damage engines of the game.
- Lightning Bolt: Even though is the best removal on the format, I'm not sure if is that good in this deck.
Creatures / recurring targets:
- Sun Titan: Synergizes well with Seismic Assault, Liliana and lands. Not much that we can recur with this guy (unless we play some other creatures as Eternal Witness or Countryside Crusher). Despite being a huge body with an excellent ability I'm really not sure if it fits this deck (really few recurring targets)
- Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: Most of the aggro decks fold to this card. Only if we could tutor for her.
- Iona, Shield of Emeria: Same as Elesh Norn
- Eternal Witness: Synergizes well with Sun Titan and allows us to grab cards like Seismic Assault, Abrupt Decay, Liliana, etc. I wouldn't want more than one though
- Wurmcoil Engine: Excellent against Jund and other mid range decks. Huge body with impressive abilities. It folds to Path tought.
Countryside Crusher)
- Kitchen Finks: Synergizes well with Sun Titan but I'm not really sure if we want this. Maybe a sideboard card.
- Countryside Crusher: Synergizes well with Sun Titan, but often is a win-more card (it can get pretty big though)
Discard:
- Iquisition of Kozilek: Just like Abrupt Decay it hits almost all the relevant spells (even GoST ).
Other spells:
- Lingering Souls: Great value card. It can deal with pesky flyers (Affinity lands, Clique), chump block and even provide a decent clock. Can be discarded to Liliana and cast from the graveyard. Despite that, it's been reported to be a slow on this deck.
- Mulch: Helps to set up the graveyard and draw lands (which helps to hit our land drops and discard to Borbo, Seismic Assault, etc).
I was thinking on something like this:
1 Blood Crypt
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Darkblast
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
3 Raven's Crime
4 Life from the Loam
2 Mulch
4 Pyroclasm
2 Seismic Assault
4 Unburial Rites
3 Liliana of the Veil
Creatures:
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Borborygmos Enraged
What do you guys think about it? Many thanks in advance!
Yes there is also a darkblast and some Flame Jabs, I just feel like in this deck, you want every card to have some value in the graveyard.
If there is a choice to Dredge Life from the Loam or draw, the choice should almost always just be to dredge.
These cards are awesome, but if you don't draw them in your opening hand or off of a faithless looting, I feel like they are just dead in the graveyard.
Deathrite Shaman is the single most problematic card I've found facing this deck. Random graveyard hate out of the sideboard sucks too, but DRS stops your gameplan dead until he is removed, or your opponent is tapped out.
SIDEBOARD
Some cards that have done well for me are:
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Obstinate Baloth
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Combust
1 Darkblast
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Countryside Crusher
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Raven's Crime
2 Flame Jab
4 Life from the Loam
4 Seismic Assault
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Graven Cairns
1 Fire-lit Thicket
1 Twighlight Mire
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Shatterstorm
1 Beast Within
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Torpor Orb
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Extirpate
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard full of one-ofs was only because I had no idea how open the field was going to be. Feels like the maindeck is so good against the majority of the aggro and mid-range decks that you don't need to sideboard very much, outside of anti-graveyard-hate. Anti-combo stuff was spread out to be flexible against graveyard-based combo (which deathrite shaman in the main is pretty good against as it is) and etb-based combo hate.
Seems like it plays pretty differently than the version I've been on. This looks kinda like BGx midrange decks (Jund/Junk) with more emphasis on graveyard Life From the Loam interaction instead of lots of traditional removal.
It does seem fun to play. How well did it perform?
Would you say it was better than traditional jund?
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Graven Cairns
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells:
3 Flame Jab
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Life from the Loam
4 Raven's Crime
3 Seismic Assault
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Darkblast
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Jund Charm
2 Nature's Claim
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Pyroclasm
2 Torpor Orb
Edit: on a second thought, it may be not that similar.
I doubt it is, otherwise why wouldn't the BR reanimator be playing it? Along with Gifts Ungiven decks. And Dregevine / Loam.
I don't think its legal.
Legal in Vintage (Type 1)
Legal in Legacy (Type 1.5)
Legal in Classic (MTGO)
Legal in Commander
I would have "Legal in Modern if it were.
Legacy:
WUBRG Manaless Dredge GRBUW
Modern:
BRG Jund GRB
EDH/Commander:
WUG Rafiq of the Many GUW