I saw this on Channel Fireball's feed and thought it would be a very interesting topic to bring up here. The discussion is about which cards from older formats would be good candidates for powerful or useful reprints to make Modern a more fun/balanced/exciting format. Please keep negative discussion to rebuttals - there are plenty of cards that will never be reprinted in a Modern-legal set, so let's focus on ones that could be.
Unlike LSV, please avoid discussing cards coming off the ban list. That conversation should take place in the thread devoted to the Modern Banned List. Also, cards that are already in the pool but should be reprinted because they are expensive to purchase should go in the thread devoted to Modern prices.
In case you didn't watch it, here are the 8 cards LSV specifically singled out:
Also, here's the summary of suggestions I've compiled.
I've been keeping track of this thread quite closely and I've noticed the cards suggested tend to break down into one of 5 categories, which I will summarize now:
1.) Most of the cards that are received with nearly unanimous praise are utility and solid role-player cards from Old Extended or early Legacy.
These cards tend to be reasonably costed for their power level, are good (but not All-stars) in other formats, are often described as interactive, skill testing, and fair, and would complement rather than push out similar cards which are already available in Modern.
2. The second class of cards that are more or less unanimously praised are cards (along with their implied period-appropriate complements) that enable older archetypes that were popular in Old Extended or earlier Legacy metagames but are no longer played in other formats where they are legal. The decks in question are usually interactive, interesting, and have a certain "nostalgic" value to them as cards that are part of historically important decks:
3. The next group of cards were mentioned, but not at very high frequency...two or fewer times. Most of these cards would be likely to see play in only one archetype or only in niche or sideboard use. Could be some good ones in here, but they didn't generate much response nor were they repeated enough to figure that there is high demand for them in Modern. At best they are underrated gems or just not particularly wanted for Modern right now; at worst they are "pet" cards that wouldn't make an impact. Most fall somewhere in the middle. Get more people talking about them and I'll move them up to Class 1. (Maybe someday I'll alphabetize this list...its getting long.)
4. The next batch of cards were mentioned frequently, but sparked highly divisive (and largely unproductive) discussion. Most of these cards could enable decks which could potentially beat the "Turn 4" guideline for the critical turn that WotC stated as the goal for the format, obsolete all similar cards already available in Modern, enable "unfun" strategies like randomized discard, hard permission, or "prison"-style locks, or allow for spells to be played at reduced or "free" costs. Any cards on this list seeing print would simultaneously appease and alienate different sub-groups of the overall population of players, if MTGS is a to be taken as a reasonable sample of the overall community.
Note: I may have missed a handful of cards moving from the discussion to my spreadsheet back to this post. If I missed them, they were probably class 3 - that's where the infrequently mentioned cards go.
1. It would go a long way towards stopping some of the powerful linear aggro strategies like Zoo
2. It wouldn't be oppressive in Standard because its symmetrical. e.g. I give up the Innocent Blood and sometimes a creature to get rid of the opponent's creature.
3. It could slide into Death Cloud or similar control decks which don't rely heavily on creatures.
Of the cards LSV mentioned, I would like to see:
Astral Slide
Onslaught Cycling Lands
Pernicious Deed
Force Spike
Vindicate
All of them seem good but not broken.
Force Spike could easily replace Mana Leak in the core set every other year. Mana Tithe is legal and doesn't seem to be a problem.
I can't be sure if it would really make a showing, but the first card I looked for that I was dissapointed was not in the pool was FTK. I knew I had seen it in a modern frame, and I was hoping that it was in a set I forgot about, but no. It would be amazeballs!!
For purely monetary reasons I would be double-plus unhappy if Vindicate and/or Pernicious Deed were reprinted, but I also don't see a need for them in the format. The format is not exactly hurting for good removal.
I hear you on Flametongue Kavu. Seems like a solid card that would be used by aggro and control alike, but only if metagame conditions are right.
I'm far less sold on Counterspell. While I understand Modern is a faster format, it still would feel a bit unfair as printed. Saying no unconditionally is powerful and Wizards has made it very clear they prefer Cancel for its cost. Now a Counterspell variant at UU with a loss of life clause similar to Thoughtseize or some other 'negative rider' could be interesting. If its worth countering that cheaply, its got to be worth 2 or 3 life to you or a loss of tempo like Familiar Ruse or Deprive.
Monkey Cage and Avarax sound fine though. Would they see play?
Monkey Cage and Avarax sound fine though. Would they see play?
Those were sort of jokes. They are two of my favorite cards, and they certainly would not damage the format, but they would not really add anything either.
Hmmm, a card I always liked, and one that could put some pressure on aggro without killing it would be Aether Flash. Would Sylvan Library be too crazy? Rancor?
I do believe that Cancel is just a bad card by comparison to its peers in the 1UU cost. Dissipate, Hinder, and Stoic Rebuttal are all strictly better. This suggests the generic effect of Counterspell should be just UU.
Also, similar power level claims were made regarding the replacement of Lightning Bolt by the strictly inferior Shock, yet Lightning Bolt was even in Standard as recently as M11 and proved to not be the warping influence it was thought it might have been. Surely, it did up the bar for 'good' when it came to creatures, requiring 4+ toughness or some way of evading it via Shroud or Hexproof, but ultimately, you can only have 4 in a deck so it wasn't oppressive. Modern can handle the power level bump, especially if control decks are going to have to use Fetch Lands and Shock Lands to consistently hit UU
CONS
I think its also worth noting that Mana Leak is more or less functionally identical to Counterspell on turns 2 through at least 4 if your opponent is playing any spells even close to optimally on the curve. The inherent tension Mana Leak presents from a deck building stand point between early game and late game stopping power makes for a very calculated choice. Replacing it with Counterspell would simply eliminate that choice for most decks.
Also, theoretically, Counterspell would have to come into Modern through a reprint in a Standard legal set. Judging by Wizard's recent commitment to Cancel, I feel like that is highly improbable.
Why does LSV think Vindicate needs to be reprinted for Modern? The format already has Maelstrom Pulse and Beast Within both of which are just as good (if not better) than Vindicate.
Meekstone would put the hurt on Zoo and its 3+ power creatures and could give control or small creatures a chance. I feel like running it main deck for G1 as anything but a 1-of for a Trinket Mage to fetch would be dumb, and its easily hated in G2 and 3.
Might be oppressive though, even if it is easy to get rid of with typical sideboard artifact-hate.
Why does LSV think Vindicate needs to be reprinted for Modern? The format already has Maelstrom Pulse and Beast Within both of which are just as good (if not better) than Vindicate.
Colors? Its a lot easier to include Vindicate as a 1-of catch-all in an Esper control deck than it is to splash for a green source to run Maelstrom Pulse or Beast Within. Having the option of a catch-all outside of green is probably a good thing.
Also, Vindicate can hit troublesome lands while Maelstrom Pulse can't. Vindicate is also an instant while Maelstrom Pulse is not. And sometimes Beast Within is just too difficult to use if you have to lose card advantage to find a way to get rid of the 3/3 token it leaves behind or face the prospect of losing to your own card - and that's never fun.
1. It would go a long way towards stopping some of the powerful linear aggro strategies like Zoo
2. It wouldn't be oppressive in Standard because its symmetrical. e.g. I give up the Innocent Blood and sometimes a creature to get rid of the opponent's creature.
3. It could slide into Death Cloud or similar control decks which don't rely heavily on creatures.
Of the cards LSV mentioned, I would like to see:
Astral Slide
Onslaught Cycling Lands
Pernicious Deed
Force Spike
Vindicate
All of them seem good but not broken.
Force Spike could easily replace Mana Leak in the core set every other year. Mana Tithe is legal and doesn't seem to be a problem.
For a lot of those purposes, Wretched Banquet is almost as good. It's no innocent blood, but I think it deserves a harder look in the more oppressive control decks.
I always enjoyed playing Lat-Nam's Legacy In classic. Functional reprint would be sweet. Some more instant draw would also be nice. Accumulated Knowledge is something that would be rather nice. All would be good control cards that would not be too expensive and could be introduced into a standard environment with too much hassle
Why does LSV think Vindicate needs to be reprinted for Modern? The format already has Maelstrom Pulse and Beast Within both of which are just as good (if not better) than Vindicate.
No Vindicate is definitely better than the both of them, although I can't really say its strictly better since the cases that Either Pulse or BW are better are huge corner cases. The fact that Vindicate hits lands is huge because that means its at worst a Stone Rain which is actually not terrible right now given the crazy mana bases and Utility lands like Grove. So I'd say that Vindicate is by far the best, with Maelstrom Pulse in second, and Beast Within last because the drawback isn't as irrelevant as people think it is.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
I would love to see a Vindicate reprint. That might be enough for me to give standard a shot, but it gives B/W decks a strong maindeck answer to non-creature permanents, which they really need to compete with decks that can run Qasali Pidemage or Maelstrom Pulse.
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Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Deadguy Ale WB
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
I still firmly believe that we will have counterspell in a future Mxx set. The lightning bolt reprint showed that wizards is willing to capitalize on respected "too good" old cards to sell sets. The world won't end either, as you need to be very blue to get a turn two counter off with it (in contrast to something like mana leak). In modern, you can get to UU pretty easily, but it might cost you as much as three life (thanks fetch plus shock!). Actually, modern might be a place for counterspell to shine, as it is generally overshadowed by mana drain in vintage and the free counters in legacy.
I feel like accumulated knowledge would likely be a bit too powerful for standard. Well, at least it supports draw-go too well and wizards wants blue mages to pay a great deal for instant draw.
I actually think force of will would be a better reprint than daze simply because it tends to be a weak play vs. aggro but would check combo decks a bit better. If that comes to pass maybe we could unban some stuff.
Outside of blue, I really want sulfuric vortex for burn decks. Sure other anti-lifegain cards exist, but they all suck compared to it. Although it isn't likely to happen, I think life would be much more interesting if imperial seal was in modern. Cheap and powerful tutors are always dangerous, but black needs a bit of a boost and seal has enough limitations that it just might work.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Modern might be a place for counterspell to shine, as it is generally overshadowed by mana drain in vintage and the free counters in legacy.
While that is an interesting point and may be true, where would that leave all the other efficient counters that need a format like Modern to let them shine, like Mana Leak, Negate, Remove Soul, Familiar's Ruse, etc? The tradeoffs in Modern counters make control so much more interesting to build, and having a default 4-of Counterspell in every U/x list would largely eliminate that.
I feel like accumulated knowledge would likely be a bit too powerful for standard. Well, at least it supports draw-go too well and wizards wants blue mages to pay a great deal for instant draw.
I actually think force of will would be a better reprint than daze simply because it tends to be a weak play vs. aggro but would check combo decks a bit better. If that comes to pass maybe we could unban some stuff.
I'd far rather see efficient free counters stay in the realm of Legacy. Pact of Negation, Mindbreak Trap and Disrupting Shoal or an Arcane-less evergreen version of it are just about the right power level to be situationally very good while still forcing you to build around them in an intelligent way to suit the metagame. Force of Will would be so good it would render all of the similar cards unplayable.
Outside of blue, I really want sulfuric vortex for burn decks. Sure other anti-lifegain cards exist, but they all suck compared to it.
I rather like Sulfuric Vortex and agree with you there.
[qoute]Although it isn't likely to happen, I think life would be much more interesting if imperial seal was in modern. Cheap and powerful tutors are always dangerous, but black needs a bit of a boost and seal has enough limitations that it just might work.[/QUOTE]
I think that power level is way too high for Modern. Infernal Tutor seems like it would be good enough because it lets you tutor for things at a low cost, but only with the provision that you have one in your hand already. Also, don't forget about the Transmute cards from Ravnica. An evergreen Infernal Tutor variant without Hellbent or a variation that makes you lose life equal to the tutored card's mana cost when you put it on top would be more reasonable. There's Beseech the Queen too.
While that is an interesting point and may be true, where would that leave all the other efficient counters that need a format like Modern to let them shine, like Mana Leak, Negate, Remove Soul, Familiar's Ruse, etc? The tradeoffs in Modern counters make control so much more interesting to build, and having a default 4-of Counterspell in every U/x list would largely eliminate that.
No it wouldn't. It would make heavier permission list not suck so bad. Other counterspells would still be played, but they would have a solid base to work from.
You do have to work for accumulated knowledge. You have to draw at least 3 of them for it to really be decent card advantage. It is one of the most fair instant speed card draw spells ever printed.
I'd far rather see efficient free counters stay in the realm of Legacy. Pact of Negation, Mindbreak Trap and Disrupting Shoal or an Arcane-less evergreen version of it are just about the right power level to be situationally very good while still forcing you to build around them in an intelligent way to suit the metagame. Force of Will would be so good it would render all of the similar cards unplayable.
I agree that FOW would be too good. Pact, shoal, and MBT are too specific to even be considered good. No control deck can use them, unless MBT is sideboard in against storm.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I still firmly believe that we will have counterspell in a future Mxx set. The lightning bolt reprint showed that wizards is willing to capitalize on respected "too good" old cards to sell sets.
I once believed that Counterspell would return in a Core set, especially since they rotate after just over a year instead of two years now. With quicker Standard rotations, WotC can be a little more liberal with what they reprint.
However, after Modern became an actual format and WotC started spelling out what the format should be like, I started strongly doubting that we'll ever see Counterspell reprinted. First, as a format that doesn't rotate, Modern would keep Counterspell around forever if it were to be reprinted. Second, players don't enjoy facing linear control strategies involving lots of counterspells. Third, WotC has made it pretty clear that they don't want permission strategies being too powerful in Modern. Counterspell would go a long way towards making Draw-Go a real deck, so WotC will likely avoid reprinting it in my opinion.
And to be honest, I think Modern is better off without Counterspell. Right now, the counterspell suite in the format is very diverse and interesting. There are quite a few playable counters that people have to choose from when deck building. Reprinting Counterspell would likely lead to a less diverse field, which I think would be a bad thing.
I once believed that Counterspell would return in a Core set, especially since they rotate after just over a year instead of two years now. With quicker Standard rotations, WotC can be a little more liberal with what they reprint.
However, after Modern became an actual format and WotC started spelling out what the format should be like, I started strongly doubting that we'll ever see Counterspell reprinted. First, as a format that doesn't rotate, Modern would keep Counterspell around forever if it were to be reprinted. Second, players don't enjoy facing linear control strategies involving lots of counterspells. Third, WotC has made it pretty clear that they don't want permission strategies being too powerful in Modern. Counterspell would go a long way towards making Draw-Go a real deck, so WotC will likely avoid reprinting it in my opinion.
And to be honest, I think Modern is better off without Counterspell. Right now, the counterspell suite in the format is very diverse and interesting. There are quite a few playable counters that people have to choose from when deck building. Reprinting Counterspell would likely lead to a less diverse field, which I think would be a bad thing.
the counterspells are not diverse. it is like pulling teeth every time you build a control deck. Counterspells are even quite bad in modern since discard is more efficient and only slightly more dead late game. The best teachings list from worlds ran like 9 discard spells and something like 7 counterspells.
would you play oust if you could play path instead.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
would you play oust if you could play path instead?
I think that's the point. Path is a perfectly good card most of the time, but it sucks on the first few turns because giving an opponent an early mana advantage is brutal. Condemn is good, but only if the metagame has a high percentage of decks playing creatures. Oust is great in the early game, getting rid of an early threat like Wild Nacatl, only to make them redraw it when you've stabilized and it won't be as effective. But Swords to Plowshares is too good because its a good answer early, middle, or late, and should therefore not be in Modern.
In the same way, Cancel is a perfectly good card most of the time but sucks on the first few turns because you can't cast it. And Remove Soul is good, but only if the metagame has a high percentage of decks playing creatures. Mana Leak is great in the early game as its more or less a hard counter, but its as good as useless when the opponent has curved out and is stabilized. But Counterspell is too good because its a good answer early, middle, or late and should therefore not be in Modern.
I think that's the point. Path is a perfectly good card most of the time, but it sucks on the first few turns because giving an opponent an early mana advantage is brutal. Condemn is good, but only if the metagame has a high percentage of decks playing creatures. Oust is great in the early game, getting rid of an early threat like Wild Nacatl, only to make them redraw it when you've stabilized and it won't be as effective. But Swords to Plowshares is too good because its a good answer early, middle, or late, and should therefore not be in Modern.
In the same way, Cancel is a perfectly good card most of the time but sucks on the first few turns because you can't cast it. And Remove Soul is good, but only if the metagame has a high percentage of decks playing creatures. Mana Leak is great in the early game as its more or less a hard counter, but its as good as useless when the opponent has curved out and is stabilized. But Counterspell is too good because its a good answer early, middle, or late and should therefore not be in Modern.
except path does not suck in the first few turns. It is actually strictly better at times than swords in aggro decks. Maybe give me mana leak where i can play an additional blue to add 1 to the cost. I would take any upgrade to the terrible counter suite.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Thomas Jefferson
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54gidxQVk-k
I saw this on Channel Fireball's feed and thought it would be a very interesting topic to bring up here. The discussion is about which cards from older formats would be good candidates for powerful or useful reprints to make Modern a more fun/balanced/exciting format. Please keep negative discussion to rebuttals - there are plenty of cards that will never be reprinted in a Modern-legal set, so let's focus on ones that could be.
Unlike LSV, please avoid discussing cards coming off the ban list. That conversation should take place in the thread devoted to the Modern Banned List. Also, cards that are already in the pool but should be reprinted because they are expensive to purchase should go in the thread devoted to Modern prices.
In case you didn't watch it, here are the 8 cards LSV specifically singled out:
- Astral Slide
- Armageddon
- Cabal Therapy
- Pernicious Deed
- Onslaught Cycling Lands
- Force Spike
- Vindicate
- Ancestral Vision
^See Modern Banned List thread1.) Most of the cards that are received with nearly unanimous praise are utility and solid role-player cards from Old Extended or early Legacy.
These cards tend to be reasonably costed for their power level, are good (but not All-stars) in other formats, are often described as interactive, skill testing, and fair, and would complement rather than push out similar cards which are already available in Modern.
Onslaught Cycling Lands
Madness
Slivers // Counter Slivers
5c Domain Control
Goblins
Enchantress // Enduring Ideal
"Turn 4" rule:
"Unfun"
"Free or reduced cost spells"
"Obsoletes" similar cards
1. Allied Fetchlands
2. Onslaught Cycling Lands
3. Cabal Therapy
4. Innocent Blood
5. Astral Slide
6. Fact or Fiction
7. Stifle
8. Flametongue Kavu
Speculate less. Test more.
1. It would go a long way towards stopping some of the powerful linear aggro strategies like Zoo
2. It wouldn't be oppressive in Standard because its symmetrical. e.g. I give up the Innocent Blood and sometimes a creature to get rid of the opponent's creature.
3. It could slide into Death Cloud or similar control decks which don't rely heavily on creatures.
Of the cards LSV mentioned, I would like to see:
Astral Slide
Onslaught Cycling Lands
Pernicious Deed
Force Spike
Vindicate
All of them seem good but not broken.
Force Spike could easily replace Mana Leak in the core set every other year. Mana Tithe is legal and doesn't seem to be a problem.
Speculate less. Test more.
Also, Counterspell.
...and, just for kicks, lets say Monkey Cage.
oooo,oooo, and Avarax.
For purely monetary reasons I would be double-plus unhappy if Vindicate and/or Pernicious Deed were reprinted, but I also don't see a need for them in the format. The format is not exactly hurting for good removal.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I hear you on Flametongue Kavu. Seems like a solid card that would be used by aggro and control alike, but only if metagame conditions are right.
I'm far less sold on Counterspell. While I understand Modern is a faster format, it still would feel a bit unfair as printed. Saying no unconditionally is powerful and Wizards has made it very clear they prefer Cancel for its cost. Now a Counterspell variant at UU with a loss of life clause similar to Thoughtseize or some other 'negative rider' could be interesting. If its worth countering that cheaply, its got to be worth 2 or 3 life to you or a loss of tempo like Familiar Ruse or Deprive.
Monkey Cage and Avarax sound fine though. Would they see play?
Speculate less. Test more.
Hmmm, a card I always liked, and one that could put some pressure on aggro without killing it would be Aether Flash. Would Sylvan Library be too crazy? Rancor?
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I do believe that Cancel is just a bad card by comparison to its peers in the 1UU cost. Dissipate, Hinder, and Stoic Rebuttal are all strictly better. This suggests the generic effect of Counterspell should be just UU.
Also, similar power level claims were made regarding the replacement of Lightning Bolt by the strictly inferior Shock, yet Lightning Bolt was even in Standard as recently as M11 and proved to not be the warping influence it was thought it might have been. Surely, it did up the bar for 'good' when it came to creatures, requiring 4+ toughness or some way of evading it via Shroud or Hexproof, but ultimately, you can only have 4 in a deck so it wasn't oppressive. Modern can handle the power level bump, especially if control decks are going to have to use Fetch Lands and Shock Lands to consistently hit UU
CONS
I think its also worth noting that Mana Leak is more or less functionally identical to Counterspell on turns 2 through at least 4 if your opponent is playing any spells even close to optimally on the curve. The inherent tension Mana Leak presents from a deck building stand point between early game and late game stopping power makes for a very calculated choice. Replacing it with Counterspell would simply eliminate that choice for most decks.
Also, theoretically, Counterspell would have to come into Modern through a reprint in a Standard legal set. Judging by Wizard's recent commitment to Cancel, I feel like that is highly improbable.
Speculate less. Test more.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
Might be oppressive though, even if it is easy to get rid of with typical sideboard artifact-hate.
Speculate less. Test more.
Colors? Its a lot easier to include Vindicate as a 1-of catch-all in an Esper control deck than it is to splash for a green source to run Maelstrom Pulse or Beast Within. Having the option of a catch-all outside of green is probably a good thing.
Also, Vindicate can hit troublesome lands while Maelstrom Pulse can't. Vindicate is also an instant while Maelstrom Pulse is not. And sometimes Beast Within is just too difficult to use if you have to lose card advantage to find a way to get rid of the 3/3 token it leaves behind or face the prospect of losing to your own card - and that's never fun.
Speculate less. Test more.
For a lot of those purposes, Wretched Banquet is almost as good. It's no innocent blood, but I think it deserves a harder look in the more oppressive control decks.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Accumulated Knowledge
Cabal Therapy
Sylvan Library
Price of Progress
Pernicious Deed
Daze
No Vindicate is definitely better than the both of them, although I can't really say its strictly better since the cases that Either Pulse or BW are better are huge corner cases. The fact that Vindicate hits lands is huge because that means its at worst a Stone Rain which is actually not terrible right now given the crazy mana bases and Utility lands like Grove. So I'd say that Vindicate is by far the best, with Maelstrom Pulse in second, and Beast Within last because the drawback isn't as irrelevant as people think it is.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
I feel like accumulated knowledge would likely be a bit too powerful for standard. Well, at least it supports draw-go too well and wizards wants blue mages to pay a great deal for instant draw.
I actually think force of will would be a better reprint than daze simply because it tends to be a weak play vs. aggro but would check combo decks a bit better. If that comes to pass maybe we could unban some stuff.
Outside of blue, I really want sulfuric vortex for burn decks. Sure other anti-lifegain cards exist, but they all suck compared to it. Although it isn't likely to happen, I think life would be much more interesting if imperial seal was in modern. Cheap and powerful tutors are always dangerous, but black needs a bit of a boost and seal has enough limitations that it just might work.
cycle lands
Astral Slide
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
While that is an interesting point and may be true, where would that leave all the other efficient counters that need a format like Modern to let them shine, like Mana Leak, Negate, Remove Soul, Familiar's Ruse, etc? The tradeoffs in Modern counters make control so much more interesting to build, and having a default 4-of Counterspell in every U/x list would largely eliminate that.
I agree with that. This recent article from Wizards seems to confirm that they don't want players to have cards that generate a lot of card advantage without having to work for it (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/173).
I'd far rather see efficient free counters stay in the realm of Legacy. Pact of Negation, Mindbreak Trap and Disrupting Shoal or an Arcane-less evergreen version of it are just about the right power level to be situationally very good while still forcing you to build around them in an intelligent way to suit the metagame. Force of Will would be so good it would render all of the similar cards unplayable.
I rather like Sulfuric Vortex and agree with you there.
[qoute]Although it isn't likely to happen, I think life would be much more interesting if imperial seal was in modern. Cheap and powerful tutors are always dangerous, but black needs a bit of a boost and seal has enough limitations that it just might work.[/QUOTE]
I think that power level is way too high for Modern. Infernal Tutor seems like it would be good enough because it lets you tutor for things at a low cost, but only with the provision that you have one in your hand already. Also, don't forget about the Transmute cards from Ravnica. An evergreen Infernal Tutor variant without Hellbent or a variation that makes you lose life equal to the tutored card's mana cost when you put it on top would be more reasonable. There's Beseech the Queen too.
Speculate less. Test more.
I agree that FOW would be too good. Pact, shoal, and MBT are too specific to even be considered good. No control deck can use them, unless MBT is sideboard in against storm.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
I once believed that Counterspell would return in a Core set, especially since they rotate after just over a year instead of two years now. With quicker Standard rotations, WotC can be a little more liberal with what they reprint.
However, after Modern became an actual format and WotC started spelling out what the format should be like, I started strongly doubting that we'll ever see Counterspell reprinted. First, as a format that doesn't rotate, Modern would keep Counterspell around forever if it were to be reprinted. Second, players don't enjoy facing linear control strategies involving lots of counterspells. Third, WotC has made it pretty clear that they don't want permission strategies being too powerful in Modern. Counterspell would go a long way towards making Draw-Go a real deck, so WotC will likely avoid reprinting it in my opinion.
And to be honest, I think Modern is better off without Counterspell. Right now, the counterspell suite in the format is very diverse and interesting. There are quite a few playable counters that people have to choose from when deck building. Reprinting Counterspell would likely lead to a less diverse field, which I think would be a bad thing.
the counterspells are not diverse. it is like pulling teeth every time you build a control deck. Counterspells are even quite bad in modern since discard is more efficient and only slightly more dead late game. The best teachings list from worlds ran like 9 discard spells and something like 7 counterspells.
would you play oust if you could play path instead.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I think that's the point. Path is a perfectly good card most of the time, but it sucks on the first few turns because giving an opponent an early mana advantage is brutal. Condemn is good, but only if the metagame has a high percentage of decks playing creatures. Oust is great in the early game, getting rid of an early threat like Wild Nacatl, only to make them redraw it when you've stabilized and it won't be as effective. But Swords to Plowshares is too good because its a good answer early, middle, or late, and should therefore not be in Modern.
In the same way, Cancel is a perfectly good card most of the time but sucks on the first few turns because you can't cast it. And Remove Soul is good, but only if the metagame has a high percentage of decks playing creatures. Mana Leak is great in the early game as its more or less a hard counter, but its as good as useless when the opponent has curved out and is stabilized. But Counterspell is too good because its a good answer early, middle, or late and should therefore not be in Modern.
Speculate less. Test more.
except path does not suck in the first few turns. It is actually strictly better at times than swords in aggro decks. Maybe give me mana leak where i can play an additional blue to add 1 to the cost. I would take any upgrade to the terrible counter suite.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson