This is true. I almost ran into the same problem before I took out three refuges, and all 3 bounce lands. Both were too slow, and I don't run many utility etbt lands to make bounce lands work it especially since they upset Daakon. I run Momentary Blink and cackling counterpart as ways to further abuse the Kor Cartographer and SadBot early game on the cheap, so making sure I have enough basics to pull out is pretty important between it and journeyers kite.
This is true. I almost ran into the same problem before I took out three refuges, and all 3 bounce lands. Both were too slow, and I don't run many utility etbt lands to make bounce lands work it especially since they upset Daakon. I run Momentary Blink and cackling counterpart as ways to further abuse the Kor Cartographer and SadBot early game on the cheap, so making sure I have enough basics to pull out is pretty important between it and journeyers kite.
I agree that running three bouncelands isn't necessary, but I find that between Bojuka Bog, Halimar Depths, and Vesuva, I'm pretty happy to get at least one a game. I did my best to ween my list of as many ETBT lands as possible, so I don't mind running a few. Do you run Walking Atlas or Terrain Generator in your list? If you do, I'd keep the bouncelands, especially if you have any utility ETB lands.
I run both the Atlas and the Generator, but if you've ever seen an opening hand with 3 bouncelands and a basic it's enough to make you cry. Also, with the new Sylvan Primordial, land destruction is a bit more common. It makes me cry.
My deck is also a bit more aggressive than yours. getting Dakkon to a 3-hit kill is easy enough but I prefer to try and get him to 10 for a 2 hit. (By the time I hit the second time I should have 11 lands). The bouncelands just slowed it down a little too much for me.
I've never been super sold on Halimar Depths. it's nice to rearrange your topdeck but it's nigh-useless if you've got a top, scroll rack, or soothsaying. If it was Scry 3, it'd be different but it unfortunately isn't. As for Bojuka Bog I sadly haven't taken the time to obtain a second one for Dakkon yet, but graveyard shenanigans aren't prevalent in my meta unless I'm the one doing it. I seem to be the only one with his head shoved in the yard almost every game.
I run both the Atlas and the Generator, but if you've ever seen an opening hand with 3 bouncelands and a basic it's enough to make you cry. Also, with the new Sylvan Primordial, land destruction is a bit more common. It makes me cry.
My deck is also a bit more aggressive than yours. getting Dakkon to a 3-hit kill is easy enough but I prefer to try and get him to 10 for a 2 hit. (By the time I hit the second time I should have 11 lands). The bouncelands just slowed it down a little too much for me.
I've never been super sold on Halimar Depths. it's nice to rearrange your topdeck but it's nigh-useless if you've got a top, scroll rack, or soothsaying. If it was Scry 3, it'd be different but it unfortunately isn't. As for Bojuka Bog I sadly haven't taken the time to obtain a second one for Dakkon yet, but graveyard shenanigans aren't prevalent in my meta unless I'm the one doing it. I seem to be the only one with his head shoved in the yard almost every game.
Fair enough. I don't have those issues so much anymore since I've gotten rid of most of the CIPT lands, but the bouncelands do require a bit of skill to mulligan and play properly, so I know how you feel.
Do you have a decklist? I'd love to see what you're running.
---
Edit: Decklist and corresponding sections updated.
I'm less concerned with the skill required to play them, but I just can't justify them for my particular decklist. I run all 3 for my sedris deck, which allows for me to do a turn 2 discard without missing a land drop to do so.
I'll get around to posting my list tomorrow, or if nothing else soon. . I've been using my spare time to try and spice up my Wrexial list as i'd like it to become a primer one day. I just recently added my sedris deck also, since I've been needing some help making it more consistent.
By the way, Momentary Blink and Cackling Counterpart have proved excellent in my deck. On wither sad bot or cartographer you'll get high mileage out of it, and even without them blink is a combat trick to prevent damage or Untap a creature and block with it. Counterpart makes any of your big beaters happy also. It's no rite of replication, but counterpart is instant speed and cheap the first go around. 7 mana isn't too tough for a deck dedicated to land ramping anyways.
By the way, Momentary Blink and Cackling Counterpart have proved excellent in my deck. On wither sad bot or cartographer you'll get high mileage out of it, and even without them blink is a combat trick to prevent damage or Untap a creature and block with it. Counterpart makes any of your big beaters happy also. It's no rite of replication, but counterpart is instant speed and cheap the first go around. 7 mana isn't too tough for a deck dedicated to land ramping anyways.
Its a personal choice, but unless it's competitive play I try to avoid infinite anything. It creates deck building challenge to work around the lack of combos, and keeps casual play fun for others. Even though others in my group use combos, I always feel like a jerk playing them, so I normally cut them.
Rite of replication isn't a game ending combo on its own right, and it can be prevented via counterspell or other methods like killing it's target. It's a big and powerful spell, which is what EDH is about, but it's not something that doesn't give your opponents a chance to recover.
I'd probably change wall for snap caster. It gets the same job done but less open for abuse.. That's just me though
Its a personal choice, but unless it's competitive play I try to avoid infinite anything. It creates deck building challenge to work around the lack of combos, and keeps casual play fun for others. Even though others in my group use combos, I always feel like a jerk playing them, so I normally cut them.
Rite of replication isn't a game ending combo on its own right, and it can be prevented via counterspell or other methods like killing it's target. It's a big and powerful spell, which is what EDH is about, but it's not something that doesn't give your opponents a chance to recover.
I'd probably change wall for snap caster. It gets the same job done but less open for abuse.. That's just me though
For me, this deck is a labor of love (as evidenced by almost half the worth of the deck being tied up in six cards). I want it to be as competitive as possible, but I think every card is good enough to stand on its own merit. The fact that I can go infinite is just an added bonus. I really don't see any reason why I'd want to actively tutor for any part of the turn combo by itself, but if my opponents left their defenses down and I'm in the position to win, why not exploit it?
As for Snapcaster Mage, I could see running him, but it would be in place of the Wall. Given that I like the peace of mind of having the combo, and (more importantly) that I don't own a Snapcaster, it's off the list for now.
Well, just knowing you dont actively aim for it is comforting. I know too many people who have a infinite combo in their deck and will every game actively try and amass all the parts instead of playing the deck how it was meant to be. I ran the traditonal Time Sieve combo for a long time in my Daakon deck, since all of the cards were decent on their own and Myr Battlesphere provided artifacts (and honestly I normally have 5 artifacts lying around anyways) and would pitch them to sieve even without the other parts to get ahead. It was eventually cut due to Thopter Foundry being weak by itself.
I do run Time Stretch, which CAN be a finisher but I normally only use it to try and get board presence ahead. Without combos to set up the best I can do is normally is maybe RFG a player. It's not enough to win outright, but it's enough to drop a few backbreaking bombs or do some collateral damage, which is what I aim to do with my deck. once I get going, I try to run like a freight train and let the whole board know who is running things, and go into full-aggro mode from there.
That's where I fell short and took it out. There are plenty of other combos in Esper to exploit. Having big bombs like rite of replication and time stretch get the job done
I just got home am and eating dinner lol. I've been posting from my phone all day. Once I'm done I'll get right on it. It warms my heart to see i've peaked your interest.
Reading my own list reminded me to ask what your opinion of Hero of Bladehold was. It's an absolute powerhouse and can win games on its own. 7 damage on its own is powerful hut it increases if you've got any 1/1s laying around from satchel or what not.
It's an aggressive pick though, and if you're trying to stick to the quiet control early game it might not be attractive, but I love thay it's relevant all game. Coming out with boots on with her is unforseen and devastating.
Reading my own list reminded me to ask what your opinion of Hero of Bladehold was. It's an absolute powerhouse and can win games on its own. 7 damage on its own is powerful hut it increases if you've got any 1/1s laying around from satchel or what not.
It's an aggressive pick though, and if you're trying to stick to the quiet control early game it might not be attractive, but I love thay it's relevant all game. Coming out with boots on with her is unforseen and devastating.
I personally wouldn't run her for the same reasons I don't like Serra Ascendant in my deck. She encourages me to attack earlier than I usually want to, and she makes me want to overextend.
Most of the games recently have been making me want to put Propaganda back in, so I need to find room.
Unless it's lethal damage, No Mercy is a better card slot for my purposes, though it loses points for not being Sun-Titan friendly. I'm not sure how your group works, but pillowforting in mine only causes players to want to attack you more. Dissipation Field and No Mercy give them no choice other than set them back if they attack you.
Propaganda/Ghostly Prison is better at stoping token/swarm strategies though, but in my experience I normally want to stop one or two creatures than a lot, and late game Propaganda doesn't deliver.
The reason I like Ghostly Prison and Propaganda are because they give me more early game relevance, the come back with Sun Titan, and when you don't have the mana, they actually stop attackers. At the least, they encourage going elsewhere if you don't want to spend the mana.
I guess its a meta thing. Me and my friends play at a number of places from our college to our LGS. We pack casual decks but when it's just our close group, it's really competitive and cutthroat. Propaganda isn't effective in my grouping because most will just pay the cost, easily done by Karn Silver Golem spamming manarocks everywhere, or Maga, Traitor of Mortals with tons of mana doublers simply to try and hack me down knowing that they can and BECAUSE they can. As I said, pillowforting for my group almost paints as big a target on your head as playing Omniscience, and for that I prefer No Mercy, because early game it will stop the vindictive players that are just swinging to swing and they have mana to do so.
Your decklist over the past month or so seems to have grown a lot more reactive and defensive overall. Kind of an odd shift in my opinion, but not a bad one. I wouldn't recommend pillowfort simply because a Demonic Tutor could better fit the slot, allowing you to solve problems as needed rather than be proactive about it. Turn 1-3 are pretty important for getting set up, and using turn 3 on a Prop might not be your best move.
Just my opinion on it though. Sphere of Safety works WONDERS if your running O-rings and Journey to nowhere, or cards of that like, but it is priceyer.
I think what happened in my case is that being aggro just wouldn't cut it with all the control decks around, so since I was slowing down it felt more natural to become more reactive.
Sphere of Safety is really good, but I don't run enough enchantments to justify it.
I suppose. Meta can cause a lot of decks to change in odd ways. Hell, Hydroblast is singlehandedly one of the best cards ever in my group 90% of the time, (I still wont run it, but you get the point.)
Hi cryo was looking through your deck it seems pretty solid. Is there a reason you don't like necropotence in here is it the BBB cost ? it's about the only card I expected too see but did not.
Hi cryo was looking through your deck it seems pretty solid. Is there a reason you don't like necropotence in here is it the BBB cost ? it's about the only card I expected too see but did not.
Well, the BBB is a concern since overall black is the tertiary color. The main reason is because my sole copy is in my Stax deck. What would you suggest I remove?
I think what happened in my case is that being aggro just wouldn't cut it with all the control decks around, so since I was slowing down it felt more natural to become more reactive.
Sphere of Safety is really good, but I don't run enough enchantments to justify it.
A mostly enchantments build of Dakkon with some planeswalkers could be really good actually.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
I agree that running three bouncelands isn't necessary, but I find that between Bojuka Bog, Halimar Depths, and Vesuva, I'm pretty happy to get at least one a game. I did my best to ween my list of as many ETBT lands as possible, so I don't mind running a few. Do you run Walking Atlas or Terrain Generator in your list? If you do, I'd keep the bouncelands, especially if you have any utility ETB lands.
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My deck is also a bit more aggressive than yours. getting Dakkon to a 3-hit kill is easy enough but I prefer to try and get him to 10 for a 2 hit. (By the time I hit the second time I should have 11 lands). The bouncelands just slowed it down a little too much for me.
I've never been super sold on Halimar Depths. it's nice to rearrange your topdeck but it's nigh-useless if you've got a top, scroll rack, or soothsaying. If it was Scry 3, it'd be different but it unfortunately isn't. As for Bojuka Bog I sadly haven't taken the time to obtain a second one for Dakkon yet, but graveyard shenanigans aren't prevalent in my meta unless I'm the one doing it. I seem to be the only one with his head shoved in the yard almost every game.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
Fair enough. I don't have those issues so much anymore since I've gotten rid of most of the CIPT lands, but the bouncelands do require a bit of skill to mulligan and play properly, so I know how you feel.
Do you have a decklist? I'd love to see what you're running.
---
Edit: Decklist and corresponding sections updated.
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I'll get around to posting my list tomorrow, or if nothing else soon. . I've been using my spare time to try and spice up my Wrexial list as i'd like it to become a primer one day. I just recently added my sedris deck also, since I've been needing some help making it more consistent.
By the way, Momentary Blink and Cackling Counterpart have proved excellent in my deck. On wither sad bot or cartographer you'll get high mileage out of it, and even without them blink is a combat trick to prevent damage or Untap a creature and block with it. Counterpart makes any of your big beaters happy also. It's no rite of replication, but counterpart is instant speed and cheap the first go around. 7 mana isn't too tough for a deck dedicated to land ramping anyways.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
Hmm... I'll have to try them out. I was playing online yesterday and got groaned at for Riting my Angel of Despair (it was like turn 15, so I couldn't feel too bad). Another game I set up infinite turns when I kept blinking Mnemonic Wall with Venser, the Sojourner to get back Temporal Manipulation. Even if the other three players hadn't scooped, it was going to be quick because they were all tapped out and I prefaced the chain with an overloaded Cyclonic Rift.
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Rite of replication isn't a game ending combo on its own right, and it can be prevented via counterspell or other methods like killing it's target. It's a big and powerful spell, which is what EDH is about, but it's not something that doesn't give your opponents a chance to recover.
I'd probably change wall for snap caster. It gets the same job done but less open for abuse.. That's just me though
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
For me, this deck is a labor of love (as evidenced by almost half the worth of the deck being tied up in six cards). I want it to be as competitive as possible, but I think every card is good enough to stand on its own merit. The fact that I can go infinite is just an added bonus. I really don't see any reason why I'd want to actively tutor for any part of the turn combo by itself, but if my opponents left their defenses down and I'm in the position to win, why not exploit it?
As for Snapcaster Mage, I could see running him, but it would be in place of the Wall. Given that I like the peace of mind of having the combo, and (more importantly) that I don't own a Snapcaster, it's off the list for now.
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I do run Time Stretch, which CAN be a finisher but I normally only use it to try and get board presence ahead. Without combos to set up the best I can do is normally is maybe RFG a player. It's not enough to win outright, but it's enough to drop a few backbreaking bombs or do some collateral damage, which is what I aim to do with my deck. once I get going, I try to run like a freight train and let the whole board know who is running things, and go into full-aggro mode from there.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
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UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
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UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
It's an aggressive pick though, and if you're trying to stick to the quiet control early game it might not be attractive, but I love thay it's relevant all game. Coming out with boots on with her is unforseen and devastating.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
I personally wouldn't run her for the same reasons I don't like Serra Ascendant in my deck. She encourages me to attack earlier than I usually want to, and she makes me want to overextend.
Most of the games recently have been making me want to put Propaganda back in, so I need to find room.
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Propaganda/Ghostly Prison is better at stoping token/swarm strategies though, but in my experience I normally want to stop one or two creatures than a lot, and late game Propaganda doesn't deliver.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
The reason I like Ghostly Prison and Propaganda are because they give me more early game relevance, the come back with Sun Titan, and when you don't have the mana, they actually stop attackers. At the least, they encourage going elsewhere if you don't want to spend the mana.
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Your decklist over the past month or so seems to have grown a lot more reactive and defensive overall. Kind of an odd shift in my opinion, but not a bad one. I wouldn't recommend pillowfort simply because a Demonic Tutor could better fit the slot, allowing you to solve problems as needed rather than be proactive about it. Turn 1-3 are pretty important for getting set up, and using turn 3 on a Prop might not be your best move.
Just my opinion on it though. Sphere of Safety works WONDERS if your running O-rings and Journey to nowhere, or cards of that like, but it is priceyer.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
Sphere of Safety is really good, but I don't run enough enchantments to justify it.
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UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Well, the BBB is a concern since overall black is the tertiary color. The main reason is because my sole copy is in my Stax deck. What would you suggest I remove?
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Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
A mostly enchantments build of Dakkon with some planeswalkers could be really good actually.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
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