I have to say that Hermit Druid is one of the most powerful cards in the deck as listed on the first page and should absolutely not be cut. That deck is running 10-12 basics with fetches so on average you are milling 10+ cards, this is excellent with so much of the deck (reanimators, dredgers, LoE/Sewer Nemesis, recursion spells, Crucible+ Friends etc).
It is good at pretty much any point in the game (unless you are literally DoB and need a topdeck).
I have to say that Hermit Druid is one of the most powerful cards in the deck as listed on the first page and should absolutely not be cut. That deck is running 10-12 basics with fetches so on average you are milling 10+ cards, this is excellent with so much of the deck (reanimators, dredgers, LoE/Sewer Nemesis, recursion spells, Crucible+ Friends etc).
It is good at pretty much any point in the game (unless you are literally DoB and need a topdeck).
Agreed. I don't know what my current count is, but I'm not sure if I'm even running 10 basics anymore, it might be under. However, if you're running a large chunk of basics for whatever reason, Druid's value does decrease significantly.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Fauna Shaman is a 2nd Survival with the 'once-per-turn' clause. Much like Vampiric Tutor is another Demonic Tutor.
To be fair, Vampiric Tutor is almost as good as Demonic Tutor because it costs 1 less and can be used at instant speed, which helps mitigate the fact that it only tutors to the top of the library. Fauna Shaman is not even in the same league as Survival. Survival can be used right away as well as more than one per turn. I think the biggest problem with Fauna is the summoning sickness. So often it doesn't even make it around once.
To be fair, Vampiric Tutor is almost as good as Demonic Tutor because it costs 1 less and can be used at instant speed, which helps mitigate the fact that it only tutors to the top of the library. Fauna Shaman is not even in the same league as Survival. Survival can be used right away as well as more than one per turn. I think the biggest problem with Fauna is the summoning sickness. So often it doesn't even make it around once.
I wasn't trying to compare the two cards. I was showing that running multiples of the same effect can be beneficial. It is true that Fauna Shaman has to wait a turn to activate and can only be used once a turn. FS is probably at the top of the list of things to get cut if something good enough comes along.
Also, I doubt this has much worth but, Slum Reaper replacing Fleshbag Marauder mainly so that it can be more easily tutored?
We've discussed Slum Reaper a couple times here, and our 4-drop slot is already filled with so many cards we'd want to tutor for (Damnation and Natural Order are the highlights), that it isn't worth increasing the mana for Fleshbag, especially in a deck with no lack of tutors and creature tutors.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
I just last night threw together a Jarad list (got one at my pre-release and really like him for a general)...just put whatever cards I could find in...so it's nowhere near optimized, though I did just disban a mimeoplasm list so I had a lot of the green and black staples for the deck.
Anyways...to the point of the post...
Have you guys considered
Pestilence? I have only played a couple of games, but my meta is decently token heavy (We have 1 Krenko, 2 Rhys...though one rhys is me) and there is always a token deck in the game.
The reason I considered it for my deck is I guess that, but also the fact that are creatures are almost always the biggest, allowing us to wipe the field over and over and over (unless someone else wipes causing us to have to sac it at the end of their turn...although nether traitor can negate this.)
any thoughts?
Thanks for posting this list =) I didn't look at it before building my deck and some of our stuff is the same, but I definitely got a few good ideas!
Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
Wow. Ok, just spent the last three days (little each day) reading all 71 pages of this thread. You guys are something special. I only wish I had the resources and playgroups to play test like this. My meta is currently myself and one other player (although could be as much as six in the next few weeks (fingers crossed)), so something like this would have to be 1v1 for now. So that's what I'm working on. Current list of foes include Sliver Overlord, Grimgrin, Jenara, Ghave (hate this guy), and Jor Kadeen. I've run reanimator in the past with karador, in fact Jarad was in there for a while after he was spoiled, but it was time to pull him out and redesign.
Love the suggestions for the current deck list btw. I don't have a scapeshift yet, so I'll have to deal with realms uncharted for now. Also missing some of the lands, but I'll make do and replace as I go. Can't wait, and if it's effective I'll put up my casual 1v1 list.
How would you go about playing a deck like this in a meta that recognizes the ability of the graveyard to play like a second hand and builds accordingly to destroy graveyard-based decks? Example: We have a mono-red Starke of Rath deck that mainboards Crypt, Relic, Furnace, and a few other artifacts for hate as well as a Szadek, Lord of Secrets deck that mainboards Leyline, Crypt, Relic, and some others. Luckily those two decks are owned by the same player but there are also decks that now have Rest in Peace and such in them. Suggestions?
I just last night threw together a Jarad list (got one at my pre-release and really like him for a general)...just put whatever cards I could find in...so it's nowhere near optimized, though I did just disban a mimeoplasm list so I had a lot of the green and black staples for the deck.
Anyways...to the point of the post...
Have you guys considered
Pestilence? I have only played a couple of games, but my meta is decently token heavy (We have 1 Krenko, 2 Rhys...though one rhys is me) and there is always a token deck in the game.
The reason I considered it for my deck is I guess that, but also the fact that are creatures are almost always the biggest, allowing us to wipe the field over and over and over (unless someone else wipes causing us to have to sac it at the end of their turn...although nether traitor can negate this.)
any thoughts?
Thanks for posting this list =) I didn't look at it before building my deck and some of our stuff is the same, but I definitely got a few good ideas!
Pestilence is in fact a great answer to tokens in your meta. I have a pestilence demon in my kresh deck (similar to this deck), and it really hurts token decks. Not only that, it weakens people for a jarad sac.
How would you go about playing a deck like this in a meta that recognizes the ability of the graveyard to play like a second hand and builds accordingly to destroy graveyard-based decks? Example: We have a mono-red Starke of Rath deck that mainboards Crypt, Relic, Furnace, and a few other artifacts for hate as well as a Szadek, Lord of Secrets deck that mainboards Leyline, Crypt, Relic, and some others. Luckily those two decks are owned by the same player but there are also decks that now have Rest in Peace and such in them. Suggestions?
Krosan grip. Besides that, you have to play in a way that forces them to pop their grave yard hate before you actually need it.
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EDH Decks:
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
How would you go about playing a deck like this in a meta that recognizes the ability of the graveyard to play like a second hand and builds accordingly to destroy graveyard-based decks? Example: We have a mono-red Starke of Rath deck that mainboards Crypt, Relic, Furnace, and a few other artifacts for hate as well as a Szadek, Lord of Secrets deck that mainboards Leyline, Crypt, Relic, and some others. Luckily those two decks are owned by the same player but there are also decks that now have Rest in Peace and such in them. Suggestions?
This is the meta that I deal with. It's not uncommon for my graveyard to get exiled twice in a game, and it's happened up to four times in a single game.
If they have one of the persistant exiles (Leyline, Rest in Peace, etc), then you need to destroy those. One time exile effects (Crypt, Relic, etc) can be worked around.
Essentially you need to put just enough in your graveyard that they have to exile it but you only lose minimal cards. Then do it again. Also take advantage of large guys to swing with. The new Worldspine Wurm is anti-grave-hate tech.
The other option is to add answers to graveyard hate. There are several instants that allow you to rescue cards from your grave, and if there's enough hate in your meta you should consider those.
Another route is giving yourself Hexproof. A majority of single-use exile effects target a player. Witchbane Orb, which is 4CMC for Dimir House Guard, can prevent them from being able to touch your yard.
Pestilence is in fact a great answer to tokens in your meta. I have a pestilence demon in my kresh deck (similar to this deck), and it really hurts token decks. Not only that, it weakens people for a jarad sac.
Krosan grip. Besides that, you have to play in a way that forces them to pop their grave yard hate before you actually need it.
This is the meta that I deal with. It's not uncommon for my graveyard to get exiled twice in a game, and it's happened up to four times in a single game.
If they have one of the persistant exiles (Leyline, Rest in Peace, etc), then you need to destroy those. One time exile effects (Crypt, Relic, etc) can be worked around.
Essentially you need to put just enough in your graveyard that they have to exile it but you only lose minimal cards. Then do it again. Also take advantage of large guys to swing with. The new Worldspine Wurm is anti-grave-hate tech.
The other option is to add answers to graveyard hate. There are several instants that allow you to rescue cards from your grave, and if there's enough hate in your meta you should consider those.
Another route is giving yourself Hexproof. A majority of single-use exile effects target a player. Witchbane Orb, which is 4CMC for Dimir House Guard, can prevent them from being able to touch your yard.
My short answer to these yard-hate questions is; sculpt your list around your meta so that you have the answers to your opponent's questions. If you need to be able to react or be proactive against the hate, then certainly do so.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
My short answer to these yard-hate questions is; sculpt your list around your meta so that you have the answers to your opponent's questions. If you need to be able to react or be proactive against the hate, then certainly do so.
Bind works pretty well against some of the graveyard destruction cards. And it's useful on occasion against other things you didn't originally anticipate, like Oblivion Stone for example.
Bind works pretty well against some of the graveyard destruction cards. And it's useful on occasion against other things you didn't originally anticipate, like Oblivion Stone for example.
That's a great suggestion, if you're having problems with graveyard hate, Bind and Krosan Grip are two good/great tools to fight it.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
I will point out the Krosan Grip is not the best against things like Tormod's Crypt. Generally these are only played right before the are used, so you don't have priority to kgrip. On the other hand sometimes people get greedy and run out the Relic of Progenitus early to start eating one card at a time so there is some value there.
Bind is a great suggestion.
I have also found that the deck is not overly reliant on the graveyard. Sure not having one makes Jarad small, but that is not a huge deal since I generally don't win via general beat down. LoE can still be pretty big, but is also worse. You are basically loosing out on the sac huge guy to Jarad plan (unless someone else has a large yard), and a bit on the Shizo plan. You also do not have the benefit of using Regrowth/Ewit/Reanimator spells as "tutors."
Basically, the only thing that is really bad for you is Leyline. Which we run several ways to get rid of, and you can pack more if you run into it a lot. The other ones are one shot effects that happen, and then you keep going. Just don't throw too much stuff into your yard.
Generally though I can win via putting together some other engine, like Mimic Vat, or our combo or Koko loops (where he ends up back in play, bad against Leyline, good against relic).
I will point out the Krosan Grip is not the best against things like Tormod's Crypt. Generally these are only played right before the are used, so you don't have priority to kgrip. On the other hand sometimes people get greedy and run out the Relic of Progenitus early to start eating one card at a time so there is some value there.
Bind is a great suggestion.
I have also found that the deck is not overly reliant on the graveyard. Sure not having one makes Jarad small, but that is not a huge deal since I generally don't win via general beat down. LoE can still be pretty big, but is also worse. You are basically loosing out on the sac huge guy to Jarad plan (unless someone else has a large yard), and a bit on the Shizo plan. You also do not have the benefit of using Regrowth/Ewit/Reanimator spells as "tutors."
Basically, the only thing that is really bad for you is Leyline. Which we run several ways to get rid of, and you can pack more if you run into it a lot. The other ones are one shot effects that happen, and then you keep going. Just don't throw too much stuff into your yard.
Generally though I can win via putting together some other engine, like Mimic Vat, or our combo or Koko loops (where he ends up back in play, bad against Leyline, good against relic).
The deck is versatile against yard hate, and has multiple ways to win if the hate comes out. Plus, as you said, we have several ways to get rid of yard hate.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Just putting it out there, have any of you noticed the awesome combo between Avenger of Zendikar and Scapeshift? It seems to be almost another win-con in itself.
E.g. Play Avenger of Zendikar when you have 9 lands out (for example).
Playing Scapeshift the following turn allows you to have 9/10 attackers!!
If you can sac and return Avenger of Zendikar to the field in the same turn that you play him, that's 18 attackers!! Admittedly, it is a two turn combo but, hey, when you pull it off, it's cool!
It's even better when you have a higher number of lands
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the sharpest steel is tempered in fire!!! though the plane of mirrodin is lost, the fire of mirrans still burn!!!!!
I love the mechanic of landfall so much that I almost wanted to put Ob Nixilis in, what with Scapeshift, Azusa, and Oracle in the deck. He also bolts people while becoming fat for Jarad. He seems pretty fun, but I think he otherwise takes too long for things to happen.
Edit: But, but, what if you chained a couple of Scapeshifts together with decent mana and Regrowths? That would put up some pretty nice damage there. I just hope they don't path him in the process.
Just putting it out there, have any of you noticed the awesome combo between Avenger of Zendikar and Scapeshift? It seems to be almost another win-con in itself.
E.g. Play Avenger of Zendikar when you have 9 lands out (for example).
Playing Scapeshift the following turn allows you to have 9/10 attackers!!
If you can sac and return Avenger of Zendikar to the field in the same turn that you play him, that's 18 attackers!! Admittedly, it is a two turn combo but, hey, when you pull it off, it's cool!
It's even better when you have a higher number of lands
Haha yeah, it's a pretty sweet synergy alright, especially when you add something like Mimic Vat & a sac outlet to the mix.
I love the mechanic of landfall so much that I almost wanted to put Ob Nixilis in, what with Scapeshift, Azusa, and Oracle in the deck. He also bolts people while becoming fat for Jarad. He seems pretty fun, but I think he otherwise takes too long for things to happen.
Edit: But, but, what if you chained a couple of Scapeshifts together with decent mana and Regrowths? That would put up some pretty nice damage there. I just hope they don't path him in the process.
Haha, sounds like a lot of building around Ob Nixilis to make him work.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Nice primer. I'm thinking about building a Jarad deck and I'll use this for pointers, but I'll definitely be adding a couple new pet cards: Jarad's Orders and Death's Presence. Death's Presence seems super fun with multiple Jarad activations or something like Altar of Dementia.
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I really haven't had good luck with hermit druid so maybe i'll swap that out to try it.
I also need to make a home for vraska. Doesnt fit the theme really but damn I want to play her.
How many basic lands are you running with Hermit Druid?
I guess if you have to play her you have to player her, lol.
It is good at pretty much any point in the game (unless you are literally DoB and need a topdeck).
Agreed. I don't know what my current count is, but I'm not sure if I'm even running 10 basics anymore, it might be under. However, if you're running a large chunk of basics for whatever reason, Druid's value does decrease significantly.
Fauna Shaman is a 2nd Survival with the 'once-per-turn' clause. Much like Vampiric Tutor is another Demonic Tutor.
To be fair, Vampiric Tutor is almost as good as Demonic Tutor because it costs 1 less and can be used at instant speed, which helps mitigate the fact that it only tutors to the top of the library. Fauna Shaman is not even in the same league as Survival. Survival can be used right away as well as more than one per turn. I think the biggest problem with Fauna is the summoning sickness. So often it doesn't even make it around once.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
I wasn't trying to compare the two cards. I was showing that running multiples of the same effect can be beneficial. It is true that Fauna Shaman has to wait a turn to activate and can only be used once a turn. FS is probably at the top of the list of things to get cut if something good enough comes along.
We've discussed Slum Reaper a couple times here, and our 4-drop slot is already filled with so many cards we'd want to tutor for (Damnation and Natural Order are the highlights), that it isn't worth increasing the mana for Fleshbag, especially in a deck with no lack of tutors and creature tutors.
Anyways...to the point of the post...
Have you guys considered
Pestilence? I have only played a couple of games, but my meta is decently token heavy (We have 1 Krenko, 2 Rhys...though one rhys is me) and there is always a token deck in the game.
The reason I considered it for my deck is I guess that, but also the fact that are creatures are almost always the biggest, allowing us to wipe the field over and over and over (unless someone else wipes causing us to have to sac it at the end of their turn...although nether traitor can negate this.)
any thoughts?
Thanks for posting this list =) I didn't look at it before building my deck and some of our stuff is the same, but I definitely got a few good ideas!
Love the suggestions for the current deck list btw. I don't have a scapeshift yet, so I'll have to deal with realms uncharted for now. Also missing some of the lands, but I'll make do and replace as I go. Can't wait, and if it's effective I'll put up my casual 1v1 list.
Happy play testing!
Pestilence is in fact a great answer to tokens in your meta. I have a pestilence demon in my kresh deck (similar to this deck), and it really hurts token decks. Not only that, it weakens people for a jarad sac.
Krosan grip. Besides that, you have to play in a way that forces them to pop their grave yard hate before you actually need it.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
This is the meta that I deal with. It's not uncommon for my graveyard to get exiled twice in a game, and it's happened up to four times in a single game.
If they have one of the persistant exiles (Leyline, Rest in Peace, etc), then you need to destroy those. One time exile effects (Crypt, Relic, etc) can be worked around.
Essentially you need to put just enough in your graveyard that they have to exile it but you only lose minimal cards. Then do it again. Also take advantage of large guys to swing with. The new Worldspine Wurm is anti-grave-hate tech.
The other option is to add answers to graveyard hate. There are several instants that allow you to rescue cards from your grave, and if there's enough hate in your meta you should consider those.
Another route is giving yourself Hexproof. A majority of single-use exile effects target a player. Witchbane Orb, which is 4CMC for Dimir House Guard, can prevent them from being able to touch your yard.
EDH Decks
BGGlissa, the TraitorGB
URTibor and LumiaRU
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticBUW
UBSygg, River CutthroatBU
RGXenagos, God of RevelsGR
UGVorel of the Hull CladeGU
GBSavra, Queen of the GolgariBG
URGMaelstrom WandererGRU
I like both of your answers Drizzle, thank you.
My short answer to these yard-hate questions is; sculpt your list around your meta so that you have the answers to your opponent's questions. If you need to be able to react or be proactive against the hate, then certainly do so.
Bind works pretty well against some of the graveyard destruction cards. And it's useful on occasion against other things you didn't originally anticipate, like Oblivion Stone for example.
Rafiq of the Many UWG
Sedris, the Traitor King URB
Kaalia of the Vast RWB
Savra, Queen of Golgari GB
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice GW
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails EquipmentW
That's a great suggestion, if you're having problems with graveyard hate, Bind and Krosan Grip are two good/great tools to fight it.
Bind is a great suggestion.
I have also found that the deck is not overly reliant on the graveyard. Sure not having one makes Jarad small, but that is not a huge deal since I generally don't win via general beat down. LoE can still be pretty big, but is also worse. You are basically loosing out on the sac huge guy to Jarad plan (unless someone else has a large yard), and a bit on the Shizo plan. You also do not have the benefit of using Regrowth/Ewit/Reanimator spells as "tutors."
Basically, the only thing that is really bad for you is Leyline. Which we run several ways to get rid of, and you can pack more if you run into it a lot. The other ones are one shot effects that happen, and then you keep going. Just don't throw too much stuff into your yard.
Generally though I can win via putting together some other engine, like Mimic Vat, or our combo or Koko loops (where he ends up back in play, bad against Leyline, good against relic).
The deck is versatile against yard hate, and has multiple ways to win if the hate comes out. Plus, as you said, we have several ways to get rid of yard hate.
// If you ran Skullbriar as a general then used Jarad's ability to sac Skullbriar would that be considered commander damage?
No, only combat damage done by the general counts as "commander damage."
E.g. Play Avenger of Zendikar when you have 9 lands out (for example).
Playing Scapeshift the following turn allows you to have 9/10 attackers!!
If you can sac and return Avenger of Zendikar to the field in the same turn that you play him, that's 18 attackers!! Admittedly, it is a two turn combo but, hey, when you pull it off, it's cool!
It's even better when you have a higher number of lands
Edit: But, but, what if you chained a couple of Scapeshifts together with decent mana and Regrowths? That would put up some pretty nice damage there. I just hope they don't path him in the process.
RGodo, Bandit WarlordR
GSeton, Krosan ProtectorG
BGJarad, Golgari Lich LordGB
Haha yeah, it's a pretty sweet synergy alright, especially when you add something like Mimic Vat & a sac outlet to the mix.
Haha, sounds like a lot of building around Ob Nixilis to make him work.