MTG Salvation

Shizo, Death's Storehouse could also be a consideration. It cuts down on one more basic for Hermit Druid and, if needed, could let you KO someone with Jarad if you find yourself needing to attack.

Gotcha. Must have misspelled it when I went for Ctrl+F.

Not sure if you saw this but, this is another Jarad deck made by a pro (I presume the writer of this article's a pro). Not sure if you've seen it tho
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/commander/24865-He-Went-To-Jarad.html

I'm going to test Geth, Lord of the Vault out. He does things I like, and I'm forced to play more conservatively in my meta so I think he'll be of use.

I'm currently working on my own some what budgeted version of this list but this thread has been incredibly helpful, even if I haven't been through most of the posts lol.

My question though, is Hermit Druid worth running if you have a higher basic land count? At the moment I'm running 32 basics (out of 40 lands). Hopefully, once I finish trading for my land base, I can drop that down to 25 basics. Now my list is a bit heavier on mana ramp compared to the OPs, but I'm also shorter on filter lands as well. Is Hermit Druid still going to be worth running in this situation? I think milling off 5 or so cards a turn and netting a land isn't to shabby for 1 mana, but I'm not to sure from what I have read in this thread.

Any opinions?

I would not run Hermit Druid with that high of a land count. My version of the deck has removed him because I'm running a lot of basics. If you want to get the most out of him, you need to have 11-12 basics at max, otherwise he's a below average miller.

thoughts on phyrexian dreadnaught? Interesting article on reddit that talked about him and jarad

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/118pbh/can_i_play_an_instant_speed_ability_in_response/

I think it's a nice trick but unless you have jarad in play he's a dead card.

If I was going to play a creature that was a dead card without Jarad and only useful as sac fodder with him I would play Phyrexian Devourer. And Devourer has been discussed to death and we decided that it is just not good enough.

A 12 point burn to everyone at the table, reliant on having Jarad in play is just not all that great compared to the other cards we have. In general I think Exsanguinate would just be better.

I don't remember us ever talking about Death's Presence. Is this something we want?

I know it is a 6 mana do nothing enchantment, but it does allow us to go very deep on Jarad's second ability, and does other things as well (I think it interacts well with undying?).

Hi everyone, I was going to start up a new thread, but I found this lovely ongoing discussion and I thought i'd share my list here instead.

Background

I've been an avid EDH player for about seven years. My first (and best) list is Oona, Queen of the Fae, which evolved from Dralnu, Lich Lord. That deck has come the point where changes I make are mostly tweaks and not upgrades, and it is a cumbersome multiplayer heavyweight of a deck. At the same time, the inordinate complexity of a U/B combo-control deck meant that I often felt I was misplaying, and I wanted a deck that was powerful and flexible, but which I also didn't need to tank for ten minutes every turn to play. I've experimented with many other generals (Rhys, Edric, Sedris, Horde of Notions, Ghost Council, etc), but I'd never been happy with their playstyles. Sometimes, I just want to autopilot my EDH deck and have fun, but still have a deck perform well at the table while doing so. I knew I wanted to play a Rock style EDH deck, with Green and Black, but I never found a general I was happy with. Until Jarad. I've been playing with this list in paper, with no proxies, for about two weeks.

Goals

Much like RWF_Less, I want to build a deck that is as multiplayer-competitive as possible. I want it to be proactive (which Oona never was), and force my opponents to react to my plays, instead of vice versa. These plays, when foiled, should also feed into a Plan B, meaning I want a lot of resiliency and flexibility. To this end, I want to have strong ramp and recursion, as well as a number of cheap utility creatures which can be used to grind out opponents or keep them off-kilter early and mid-game. I want to keep the creature count as high as possible for greater utility and proactivity.


The List
Obviously, still a work in progress.



The Waiting Room

Cards that I want to fit in, or are up for consideration

The Cutting Room Floor

Rock Stars
As you can see, the build and aim is quite similar to RWF_Less'. I have a bit less emphasis on combo and self-mill, and a bit more upon recursive synergy and flexibility. I've been working my way through the pages on this thread, and would be interested in hearing your thoughts about specific card choices. Any suggestions and/or criticisms?

Your list looks fine, but I think there is a lot of room for improvement. In general I have found that Brawn is just worse than Filth. Sometimes Brawn gets there while Filth does nothing, but generally, in the late game, Filth will do the same thing for you, but not care if they have the bigger board.

You aren't running either Lord of Extinction or Sewer Nemesis, was this a conscious choice? They have been very good for me (especially with Jarad).

If I were going to add a sac outlet I would definitely add Altar of Dementia over Ashnod's. You certainly have enough graveyard synergy to get use out of it, and if you want to combo it provides you the win on the spot instead of requiring a mana sink.

In general I have found that creatures with EtB effects are just better than those without, especially in this deck. To that end I don't think Abyssal, Sheoldred, Butcher of Malakir and Bloodgift are that good. I would suggest Rune-Scarred Demon and Woodfall, as well as some other stuff from your waiting list. Also, Greater Good is amazing, especially with Koko/Rune-Scarred on a mimic vat.

I have been playing a list extremely close to RFW-Less's list for a little over a month and have found it to be very good. There is not all that much I would change, so ultimately most of my suggestions will end up pushing you in that direction. That said, your stated goal seems to be a deck similar to RFW_Less's but with less combo emphasis. Well the only combo he currently runs is Woodfall+Mike+Altar, so if you wanted to move away form that plan I would suggest pulling Altar. If you wanted you could also cut some tutors to make the deck a bit less consistent. You then fill those spaces with the good cards you already have, like Seedguide, Empath and Vorinclex.

The main problem I see with your list is that it is a bit short on ways to win the game. Playing attrition and recursion until you are the last man standing is a plan, but it is not always the best one, especially if someone comes after you early, or you have to get a fast clock on combo. To that end I think you really should go with some creatures that get extremely large for Jarad to sack, and throw in a Shizo, Death Storehouse (as well as Filth) so you can get a good plan A and B going, and just default to the grindy attrition plan if those are answered.

Why Kozilek? Shuffling the graveyard into your library defeats the purpose of the deck...?

Quote from shadowstalker98

Why Kozilek? Shuffling the graveyard into your library defeats the purpose of the deck...?

I'm guessing to protect yourself from instant-speed grave hate. Better back into your library than exiled, as I always say :thumbsup:.

While being able to discard Kozilek to reshuffle the graveyard in response to Bojuka Bog or something is good, it is probably not worth randomly hitting him off a dredge and screwing up your plans.

Yeah, Bismuth has it right. Kozilek is an insurance against Bokjuka Bogs, etc. It is awkward to hit off a dredge, but my deck wants to recur specific cards most of the time instead of an en-masse self-mill approach.

However, I don't actually know if he's even this good in the deck. There are better value-fats to play, I feel, and when you do cast him, you turn your opponents' removal into Bojuka Bogs. I'll prolly be cutting him for Ulamog or Lord of Extinction.

Quote from Centarion

Stuff

Thanks for the feedback. I agree with pretty everything. There are a few cards like Abyssal which i've had very good results with in non-green decks, which I'm realising aren't as good here because of the green options Brawn has been nice, but not stellar. I actually got back from my LGS with a Shizo and Lord of Extinction, so those are going in. Some choices simply aren't in because I don't have them in paper yet or are coming in the mail (Rune-Scarred, Woodfall Primus).

I'm finding Bloodgift Demonand Butcher of Malakir do pull their weight, though. Bloodgift sits at a comfortable casting range, and beats / blocks a lot with a relevant upside. He is hurt a bit by his lack of ETB, but for my meta, the flying is quite relevant. Butcher is akin to a designer three-piece suit. He's expensive and cumbersome, but ultimately I'm never disappointed that I have him, because he eats up the board with little additional effort. The fact that he's a creature makes him good (constant access to Grave Pact if he's in my graveyard), since I can do things like Dread Returning him, then flashing it back to make mega-one-sided Barter in Bloods when I need to get rid of problem creatures.

How is Sewer Nemesis? He seemed like something of a dumb fat to me, and a bit situational, like a worse Lord of Extinction.

The issue I have with Altar of Dementia is that I could feasibly kill myself with it if I'm going off with the Mikaeus/Woodfall combo. I also tend to win by flinging a bunch of fats with Jarad, which gets pricey on the mana. I will test it out though, and see how it goes.

Quote from Justicarphaeton

The issue I have with Altar of Dementia is that I could feasibly kill myself with it if I'm going off with the Mikaeus/Woodfall combo. I also tend to win by flinging a bunch of fats with Jarad, which gets pricey on the mana. I will test it out though, and see how it goes.

How? It's target player puts their top cards of their library into their graveyard

Quote from shadowstalker98

How? It's target player puts their top cards of their library into their graveyard

Hahah. I became so wound-up with the idea that you only use it on yourself that I forgot...

Ok, some updates. First up, changes:

Out:

• Wirewood Lodge
  
• Kozilek, Butcher of Truths
  
• Primal Command
  
• Regrowth
  
• Brawn
  
• Abyssal Persecutor
  
• Artisan of Kozilek
  
• Golgari Signet
  
• Umezawa's Jitte

In

• Shizo, Death's Storehouse
  
• Lord of Extinction
  
• Demonic Tutor
  
• Survival of the Fittest
  
• Woodfall Primus
  
• Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
  
• Sewer Nemesis
  
• Farhaven Elf
  
• Altar of Dementia

Most of these are very self-explanatory, and in alignment with the general consensus in this thread. Right now i'm working on trimming fat and trying to raise the creature count.

What do you feel is an 'ideal' critical mass of creatures? I arbitrarily say 40 (since you want to draw them about as often as mana sources), but right now I believe I am at 38 creatures, and I feel I could/should run more.

What are your thoughts on Mikaeus + Triskelion? Tooth and Nail or Victimize both allow you to win on the spot with them. I'm not sure how respectable of a creature Triskelion is on its own, however.

I feel that the most optimized and competitive build probably includes TAN and Trike (and all builds should probably include Mike).

That said this is not necessary to the deck, and while Trike is fine, it would not make the cut outside the combo. Also it may make you draw hate at your table, which may actually decrease your win percentage.

In the end I do not find that particular combo fun or interesting (since it is basically a 1 card combo), and once they know you have it TaN will likely never resolve.

I dont think you really need a huge amount of creatures. The 30 already in the original list is already fairly high for an EDH deck, we are not playing a super agro game, we dont need a massive creature count.

I would like to see Elixer of Immortality in this list, as well as Scroll Rack. The Rack is really handy for getting junk out of your hand and shuffled away with Fetches and Tutors, but can also double as a Dredge powerhouse. Golgari Thug is also worth mention I believe. If you equip him to Skullclamp, is it possible to stack triggers so that you put a creature from your 'yard on top of the deck, draw that creature, and then dredge 4 for the second Skullclamp card? If not I can see why he didn't make the list, but still no a terrible choice.