Reworked the deck to be more straight to combo and less durdle around with X burn spells and counters. Managed to combo off with the previous incarnation, but it was unable to stop someone with a strong fast start. Upped the mana rocks, added some tutors, added a couple more combo options.... we'll see how it plays now.
Criticism welcomed, looking for balance amongst combo pieces, draw/tutor, ramp, and control.
could you explain the loop with the clone effect for infinite mana? i remember something of this in the past but i thought i required 3 gorgers to pull off?
could you explain the loop with the clone effect for infinite mana? i remember something of this in the past but i thought i required 3 gorgers to pull off?
I'll give the clumsy explanation...
You do basically need 3 gorgers, 1 worldgorger and two clones.
With either Phyrexian Metamorph or Phantasmal Image in play and the other in hand, cast Worldgorger Dragon and float enough mana to cast whichever clone is in hand. Dragon comes into play exiling everything. Cast the clone from hand, dragon leaves play activating his leaves play ability returning everything, including the other clone which clones the clone dragon. Tap all your lands before everything disappears again and you've got a loop. The one problem is you need something else to clone at some point aside from the dragon or an instant way to win or you're stuck in an infinite loop. Stack experts are cringing at this explanation I'm sure, but I hope you get the idea.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker loop works somewhat similarly, but all you need is the dragon and kiki. You start with Kiki in play. Respond to the dragon's ETB trigger by making a copy of the dragon. The token's trigger will be on top of the stack exiling everything but the token, including the original dragon. The original dragon's LTB trigger happens but doesn't return anything. Then the original dragon's exile trigger resolves exiling the token, triggering the token's LTB returning the original dragon , Kiki, and all your lands(untapped). Respond to the dragon ETB by activating Kiki, tap all your lands, and you're off to the races again.
This is a much more combo-tuned list, but I haven't tried this version out yet.
The old version I won two separate games with the Reset combo. It's pretty cool to be able to combo off on another player's turn so you can look for the best moment.
The games I lost were ones where I was holding a bunch of X spells without enough mana to do anything significant with them, and just got squished. Folks in my group convinced me to drop most of the X spells (aside from actual win cons like BSZ and Comet Storm).
Nin would make a suitable alternate general to this list, it's just that I like having a fat flyer available in the command zone.
Firemind's Foresight lets you grab Reiterate, Reset, and Lightning Bolt is one of the combos I'm planning on running. I tried mine out tonight went one and one against riku. It isn't completely tuned yet just going with what I have.
Edit. Just realized you have it in the deck. My bad.
Firemind's Foresight lets you grab Reiterate, Reset, and Lightning Bolt is one of the combos I'm planning on running. I tried mine out tonight went one and one against riku. It isn't completely tuned yet just going with what I have.
Edit. Just realized you have it in the deck. My bad.
Ha, no problem. That card is one of the reasons I made this deck. That and trying to go infinite with Worldgorger without using the graveyard. I like the graveyard Worldgorger loop as well, but my meta often has three pieces of GY hate on the table by turn three.
As far as combos go, even though it's fetchable with one card, that card still costs 7 mana, and then the 8 mana you need to start the Reset/Reiterate combo, so it's not just an instant win button.
Usually I put one combo in my decks in case it comes up, but focusing on combo I need to decide how much redundancy I want versus how many card slots to use on staying alive, finding the combo, and having counters up to make sure the combo works. Decks that have just one or two combos and everything is tuned to making them work seem less interesting than something like this that has a few different options so other players aren't sure exactly what you're going to do.
Like to see your list when you get it to a point where it plays the way you want.
You know, I like this. It would be a pleasure to play against I think.
I have a few ideas. One is Dream Halls and/or Omniscience You have a lot of high CMC cards. You will struggle to cast them in more aggressive games. They will also make it much easier to cast your infinite mana combos especially. It also negates Winter Orb lockdown effects.
More ramp would not hurt this deck. I know you want to go infinite, but speed to getting to that point helps a lot. Consider adding the moxen.
Your lands could use a bit of an upgrade. I know they are spendy, but it helps.
Your counter arsenal could also be upgraded. You are missing Force of Will and Pact of Negation. Remand is also good. I know this is partly a matter of $$$ but it goes a long way.
[CARD]
Chromatic Lantern[/CARD] + Caged Sun seems pretty decent. Props for that combo XD. Sun is still just a bit steep on CMC for me.
Consider adding Frantic Search, Careful Study, and Faithless Looting. I was hesitant to add these at first, but they are really powerful. They let you fix an otherwise terrible starting hand and allow you to draw into your combo cards/mana accel sooner. They are cheap to cast and almost always benefit you, even in mid-late game.
Hand-cycling is also something that I notice largely missing from this build. I'm maybe a bit biased, but they are some of my favorite cards in MTG. Read the section on hand-cycling in my primer for more info, but I would at least add Time Spiral and Wheel of Fortune.
Extra turn spells are also very nice in this type of deck and you could easily go infinite with them as well.
First awesome list I love the feel of a list like this. I agree power artIfact is good was my main wincon in nin but the general made it super simple. Also I think wheel of fortune needs a slot.
Dream Halls would allow winning on turn 5 or sooner with acceleration, which this deck can't do right now. Definitely a fun card that I'll have to slot in to try out at some point.
When it comes to alternate infi-mana combos, I've considered most of them and chosen ones that tickled my fancy most. Right now the one card that is pretty pointless without it's complementary piece is Worldgorger Dragon, and even him I could just say 'screw it' and cast him. Power Artifact is really only useful as a combo piece and it's $$$. I hadn't seen the Tidespout Tyrant one before, and he could be plenty useful when not doing his combo thing.
The moxen are on the list. I just bought a Mana Crypt so my cardboard budget is a bit blown for awhile. You run a lower CMC than I do in your deck, what kind of mana rock package/land package would you set up for this deck?
As far as lands go I'm assuming you mean revised dual and fetchlands. I do have an Arid Mesa I could stick in here, but honestly I like keeping to a lot of basics. Ideally I would just get them out faster... even considering Terrain Generator as something to do before my turn when I didn't have to burn a counterspell.
The hand-filtering suggestions are the ones I'm taking most to heart as they're pretty easy to try out. I had Windfall and Wheel of Fortune in here at one point, but the problem I ran into was having half a combo in hand and wanting to dig for the other piece. The wheels also substantially improve with the original Niv Mizzet out. I'm going to put in Frantic Search as that's a no brainer, and probably Faithless Looting
The "free" counterspells will make it in at some point, when I can afford them. As you mentioned, several upgrades that would improve this deck cost a bit. Pact of Negation isn't in my collection yet, and is probably the first of the bunch I'll add in. I've always just grabbed the 3 CMC exile/tuck counterspells, but this deck likes cheaper counters to backup the win con.
For lands/mana rocks, I would recommend what I run. A lot of it is $$$ but it's the best out there. Maybe consider things like Mana Geyser or Drain Power or even Inner Fire for spell based mana sources.
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker
1 Capsize
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Phantasmal Image (both clones have to be available)
1 Archaeomancer
1 Into The Roil (with Archaeomancer and Dragon)
1 Nivix Guildmage
1 Turnabout
1 Reset
1 Reiterate
(Niv Mizzet himself)
1 Comet Storm
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Lightning Bolt (with Reiterate)
1 Brainstorm (with Reiterate into another mana dump)
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Pestermite
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Splinter Twin
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Hinder
1 Counterflux
1 Spell Crumple
1 Counterspell
1 Dissipate
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Negate
1 Arcane Denial
1 Trickbind
1 Time Stop
1 Vandalblast
1 Evacuation
1 Cylconic Rift
1 Shattering Spree
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Firemind's Foresight (gets Reiterate, Reset, and Lightning Bolt)
1 Reverberate
1 Recurring Insight
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Long Term Plans
1 Impulse
1 Fact or Fiction
Enchantment
1 Mystic Remora
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer’s Bauble
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Izzet Signet
1 Izzet Keyrune
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Caged Sun
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Great Furnace
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Steam Vents
1 Command Tower
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Minamo, School at Water’s Edge
13 Mountain
14 Island
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
Criticism welcomed, looking for balance amongst combo pieces, draw/tutor, ramp, and control.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
I'll give the clumsy explanation...
You do basically need 3 gorgers, 1 worldgorger and two clones.
With either Phyrexian Metamorph or Phantasmal Image in play and the other in hand, cast Worldgorger Dragon and float enough mana to cast whichever clone is in hand. Dragon comes into play exiling everything. Cast the clone from hand, dragon leaves play activating his leaves play ability returning everything, including the other clone which clones the clone dragon. Tap all your lands before everything disappears again and you've got a loop. The one problem is you need something else to clone at some point aside from the dragon or an instant way to win or you're stuck in an infinite loop. Stack experts are cringing at this explanation I'm sure, but I hope you get the idea.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker loop works somewhat similarly, but all you need is the dragon and kiki. You start with Kiki in play. Respond to the dragon's ETB trigger by making a copy of the dragon. The token's trigger will be on top of the stack exiling everything but the token, including the original dragon. The original dragon's LTB trigger happens but doesn't return anything. Then the original dragon's exile trigger resolves exiling the token, triggering the token's LTB returning the original dragon , Kiki, and all your lands(untapped). Respond to the dragon ETB by activating Kiki, tap all your lands, and you're off to the races again.
I got my info on this from this thread, to give credit where it's due: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=307670
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
Nin's theft
Mill all decks
bruna blink
The old version I won two separate games with the Reset combo. It's pretty cool to be able to combo off on another player's turn so you can look for the best moment.
The games I lost were ones where I was holding a bunch of X spells without enough mana to do anything significant with them, and just got squished. Folks in my group convinced me to drop most of the X spells (aside from actual win cons like BSZ and Comet Storm).
Nin would make a suitable alternate general to this list, it's just that I like having a fat flyer available in the command zone.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
Edit. Just realized you have it in the deck. My bad.
Nin's theft
Mill all decks
bruna blink
Ha, no problem. That card is one of the reasons I made this deck. That and trying to go infinite with Worldgorger without using the graveyard. I like the graveyard Worldgorger loop as well, but my meta often has three pieces of GY hate on the table by turn three.
As far as combos go, even though it's fetchable with one card, that card still costs 7 mana, and then the 8 mana you need to start the Reset/Reiterate combo, so it's not just an instant win button.
Usually I put one combo in my decks in case it comes up, but focusing on combo I need to decide how much redundancy I want versus how many card slots to use on staying alive, finding the combo, and having counters up to make sure the combo works. Decks that have just one or two combos and everything is tuned to making them work seem less interesting than something like this that has a few different options so other players aren't sure exactly what you're going to do.
Like to see your list when you get it to a point where it plays the way you want.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
Nin's theft
Mill all decks
bruna blink
I have a few ideas. One is Dream Halls and/or Omniscience You have a lot of high CMC cards. You will struggle to cast them in more aggressive games. They will also make it much easier to cast your infinite mana combos especially. It also negates Winter Orb lockdown effects.
Why not add the Grim Monolith/Basalt Monolith + Power Artifact combo? It only costs 3U or 4U to set up.
More ramp would not hurt this deck. I know you want to go infinite, but speed to getting to that point helps a lot. Consider adding the moxen.
Your lands could use a bit of an upgrade. I know they are spendy, but it helps.
Your counter arsenal could also be upgraded. You are missing Force of Will and Pact of Negation. Remand is also good. I know this is partly a matter of $$$ but it goes a long way.
[CARD]
Chromatic Lantern[/CARD] + Caged Sun seems pretty decent. Props for that combo XD. Sun is still just a bit steep on CMC for me.
Consider adding Frantic Search, Careful Study, and Faithless Looting. I was hesitant to add these at first, but they are really powerful. They let you fix an otherwise terrible starting hand and allow you to draw into your combo cards/mana accel sooner. They are cheap to cast and almost always benefit you, even in mid-late game.
Hand-cycling is also something that I notice largely missing from this build. I'm maybe a bit biased, but they are some of my favorite cards in MTG. Read the section on hand-cycling in my primer for more info, but I would at least add Time Spiral and Wheel of Fortune.
Extra turn spells are also very nice in this type of deck and you could easily go infinite with them as well.
A few other infinite combos you might consider:
[CARD]
Tidespout Tyrant[/CARD] + Sol Ring + Mana Vault or Mana Crypt. Tyrant also works with 2 of any of following untap land creatures: palinchron/cloud of faeries/ perigine drake/ great whale, etc or any of the double mana producing lands like izzet boilerworks etc + pandemonium = infinite mana and infinite enters the battlefield triggers.
Intruder Alarm + Kiki
Izzet Chronarch + Deadeye Navigator + 7 or more lands + Turnabout = Infinite mana
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Dream Halls would allow winning on turn 5 or sooner with acceleration, which this deck can't do right now. Definitely a fun card that I'll have to slot in to try out at some point.
When it comes to alternate infi-mana combos, I've considered most of them and chosen ones that tickled my fancy most. Right now the one card that is pretty pointless without it's complementary piece is Worldgorger Dragon, and even him I could just say 'screw it' and cast him. Power Artifact is really only useful as a combo piece and it's $$$. I hadn't seen the Tidespout Tyrant one before, and he could be plenty useful when not doing his combo thing.
The moxen are on the list. I just bought a Mana Crypt so my cardboard budget is a bit blown for awhile. You run a lower CMC than I do in your deck, what kind of mana rock package/land package would you set up for this deck?
As far as lands go I'm assuming you mean revised dual and fetchlands. I do have an Arid Mesa I could stick in here, but honestly I like keeping to a lot of basics. Ideally I would just get them out faster... even considering Terrain Generator as something to do before my turn when I didn't have to burn a counterspell.
The hand-filtering suggestions are the ones I'm taking most to heart as they're pretty easy to try out. I had Windfall and Wheel of Fortune in here at one point, but the problem I ran into was having half a combo in hand and wanting to dig for the other piece. The wheels also substantially improve with the original Niv Mizzet out. I'm going to put in Frantic Search as that's a no brainer, and probably Faithless Looting
The "free" counterspells will make it in at some point, when I can afford them. As you mentioned, several upgrades that would improve this deck cost a bit. Pact of Negation isn't in my collection yet, and is probably the first of the bunch I'll add in. I've always just grabbed the 3 CMC exile/tuck counterspells, but this deck likes cheaper counters to backup the win con.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
Maybe consider adding Copy Artifact to copy lotus, caged sun, etc...
Since you have a lot more creatures than I do, you might find Rite of Replication useful.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp