"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
Fireshrieker, but no Horned Helm? Hell, Trample in general makes Vorosh much easier to work with.
I'd actually drop the Take Possession for either the Blue Magemark or the Horned Helm (and maybe a few other cards to give him more trample options).
Sisters of Stone Death is great in EDH, but I'd rather have it as a General than on the actual deck. She gets more mileage that way. I recommend cutting her for a Mul Daya Channelers or a Solemn Simulacrum. Or a Future Sight.
Fireshrieker, but no Horned Helm? Hell, Trample in general makes Vorosh much easier to work with.
I'd actually drop the Take Possession for either the Blue Magemark or the Horned Helm (and maybe a few other cards to give him more trample options).
Sisters of Stone Death is great in EDH, but I'd rather have it as a General than on the actual deck. She gets more mileage that way. I recommend cutting her for a Mul Daya Channelers or a Solemn Simulacrum. Or a Future Sight.
I added Take Possession a while ago, just to see how it played and if I would like it, but I have yet to actually draw it. I do like your suggestion, though, and will probably replace it with horned helm. Can you use the GG ability at instant speed?
I JUST added Sisters. I was getting bored with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and wanted to add something I hadn't used before. I'm going to keep it in there for now. Also, I only have two Solemn Simulacrum, and they are in my other two EDH decks. Once I trade for another, it is definitely going in. I don't particularly care for Future Sight and similar effects. I don't like people knowing what's in my grip.
Thanks for the feedback.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
I added Take Possession a while ago, just to see how it played and if I would like it, but I have yet to actually draw it. I do like your suggestion, though, and will probably replace it with horned helm. Can you use the GG ability at instant speed?
I JUST added Sisters. I was getting bored with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and wanted to add something I hadn't used before. I'm going to keep it in there for now. Also, I only have two Solemn Simulacrum, and they are in my other two EDH decks. Once I trade for another, it is definitely going in. I don't particularly care for Future Sight and similar effects. I don't like people knowing what's in my grip.
Thanks for the feedback.
Yes, you can attach it at instant speed. Equip, the keyword, can only be used at sorcery speed. The effect on Horned Helm is GG: Attach this to a creature. That's instant speed, no problem.
Also, Future Sight effects are great. They may know what you've got, but that might help you. Counterspell on top of your deck? Well, they're not even gonna try to cast their game-breaker. And they won't until they have counter backup of their own or you use it up. And even if you didn't counter the spell, that's still 2, 3, maybe 4 or more turns that they didn't play the spell.
I run Magus of the Future, and I love it. It's great with CounterTop, since I can leave something up top and basically tell everyone "Don't bother even trying". And then if they try something else, Top!
Yes, you can attach it at instant speed. Equip, the keyword, can only be used at sorcery speed. The effect on Horned Helm is GG: Attach this to a creature. That's instant speed, no problem.
Also, Future Sight effects are great. They may know what you've got, but that might help you. Counterspell on top of your deck? Well, they're not even gonna try to cast their game-breaker. And they won't until they have counter backup of their own or you use it up. And even if you didn't counter the spell, that's still 2, 3, maybe 4 or more turns that they didn't play the spell.
I run Magus of the Future, and I love it. It's great with CounterTop, since I can leave something up top and basically tell everyone "Don't bother even trying". And then if they try something else, Top!
Oh, I completely understand WHY they are used, a couple of people at my local store/playgroup play them, I just don't particularly care for that strategy.
If I were going to run something that revealed, I would prob run Counterbalance.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
Oh, I completely understand WHY they are used, a couple of people at my local store/playgroup play them, I just don't particularly care for that strategy.
If I were going to run something that revealed, I would prob run Counterbalance.
You might want to give Counterbalance a try, especially since you already have a top. It's not super reliable, especially without a lot of shuffling, but it can really save your hide. And, at worst, it'll act as a target for enchantment removal, which means they have one less to use on stuff you actually WANT to keep.
Our playgroup is considering banning Top, just because it makes games take way, way too long. I use Top + Counterbalance, another guy uses Top + Lurking Predators, another uses Top + Baneful Omen, etc. It's not bad, until you get the idiots who have to use Top EVERY CHANCE THEY CAN, without shuffles. I mean, really. It's not like the top 3 cards have changed in the past 2 phases. I can understand it with Predators, or Counterbalance, or if you need to draw one of them by tapping the Top, but just rearranging them for the hell of it slows things down too much.
I just feel that knowing what's in someone's hand is a HUGE advantage.
and yeah, I know what you're saying about top. I spin the top frequently, but I never take more than just a second or two to arrange, except in cases where I have to figure out how to worm my way out of a sticky situation, that might take a tiny bit of deliberation.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
I just feel that knowing what's in someone's hand is a HUGE advantage.
and yeah, I know what you're saying about top. I spin the top frequently, but I never take more than just a second or two to arrange, except in cases where I have to figure out how to worm my way out of a sticky situation, that might take a tiny bit of deliberation.
It is, if they are mainly playing counterspells or removal. But it isn't a game-breaking advantage. It adds another level of strategy to the game play. At it's most basic form, knowing what is in your opponent's hand is hand disruption.
The thing about Future Sight is they are only getting one card at a time; the rest of your hand is invisible. At the same time, it gives you another card every time you cast something from the top of your deck. Oracle of Mul Daya, Magus of the Future, and the enchantment itself are all acceleration. Consider how much mana your deck generates by turn 6, or even later. These cards allow you to churn through your deck in search of answers or threats, while simultaneously giving you card advantage each time.
The point is who cares if they know what it is if it's going onto the stack within three seconds? Mana Reflection+Cabal Coffers+Deck Manipulation (Future Sight)=Board Position.
The reason Future Sight is rated higher than the Magus, BTW, is FS dodges a large number of common board-sweepers. It's usually pinpoint removal that hits the enchantments, not a sweeper (Fracturing Gust and Austere Command are the ones that are usually run, and even those tend to be rare in most metas). The advantage of always having another card to play no matter how many cards are in your hand far outweighs the drawback of them knowing what it is.
It is, if they are mainly playing counterspells or removal. But it isn't a game-breaking advantage. It adds another level of strategy to the game play. At it's most basic form, knowing what is in your opponent's hand is hand disruption.
The thing about Future Sight is they are only getting one card at a time; the rest of your hand is invisible. At the same time, it gives you another card every time you cast something from the top of your deck. Oracle of Mul Daya, Magus of the Future, and the enchantment itself are all acceleration. Consider how much mana your deck generates by turn 6, or even later. These cards allow you to churn through your deck in search of answers or threats, while simultaneously giving you card advantage each time.
The point is who cares if they know what it is if it's going onto the stack within three seconds? Mana Reflection+Cabal Coffers+Deck Manipulation (Future Sight)=Board Position.
The reason Future Sight is rated higher than the Magus, BTW, is FS dodges a large number of common board-sweepers. It's usually pinpoint removal that hits the enchantments, not a sweeper (Fracturing Gust and Austere Command are the ones that are usually run, and even those tend to be rare in most metas). The advantage of always having another card to play no matter how many cards are in your hand far outweighs the drawback of them knowing what it is.
I run the Magus because the only boardwipes that my playgroup sees are often kill-everything kind. Scourglass, Disk, Magus of the Disk, Akroma's Vengeance, etc. It'll die all the same. I'll probably put the enchantment in later, though, in place of the Magus. I just had a Magus, but did not have a Future Sight.
Also, OP, like he said FS only shows off the top card of your deck, not your whole hand. And I decided not to run Telepathy after some deliberation, because all it would do is give me a head's-up. My friends and I refer to Yugioh for this: We call it the Pegasus Paradox. Just because you know what's coming doesn't mean you can stop it. That's pretty much how Yugi beats Pegasus in the show. Pegasus knows all his cards and how he'll use them, but at one point, Yugi basically says "Oh you know what I'm doing. Too bad you have no way of stopping it". I mean, think about a guy with a shotgun pointed at you and a guy with a sniper rifle a mile away. Both can kill you dead, even though you only know about one of them. And, like Titan said, it matters even LESS if you're just gonna play it immediately. I think you should at least give the cards a try. It's such fun late game with a Mirari's Wake or a Mana Reflection, or even better, BOTH, and just playing the top 5 or 6 cards of your deck one after the other.
I run the Magus because the only boardwipes that my playgroup sees are often kill-everything kind. Scourglass, Disk, Magus of the Disk, Akroma's Vengeance, etc. It'll die all the same. I'll probably put the enchantment in later, though, in place of the Magus. I just had a Magus, but did not have a Future Sight.
Also, OP, like he said FS only shows off the top card of your deck, not your whole hand. And I decided not to run Telepathy after some deliberation, because all it would do is give me a head's-up. My friends and I refer to Yugioh for this: We call it the Pegasus Paradox. Just because you know what's coming doesn't mean you can stop it. That's pretty much how Yugi beats Pegasus in the show. Pegasus knows all his cards and how he'll use them, but at one point, Yugi basically says "Oh you know what I'm doing. Too bad you have no way of stopping it". I mean, think about a guy with a shotgun pointed at you and a guy with a sniper rifle a mile away. Both can kill you dead, even though you only know about one of them. And, like Titan said, it matters even LESS if you're just gonna play it immediately. I think you should at least give the cards a try. It's such fun late game with a Mirari's Wake or a Mana Reflection, or even better, BOTH, and just playing the top 5 or 6 cards of your deck one after the other.
fair enough. i'll give it a shot when i reacquire one.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
fair enough. i'll give it a shot when i reacquire one.
Can't hurt! I have a stack of like, 50 cards sitting in my Dragon's Egg, and it consists entirely of random cards that I cycle in and out of my EDH deck. I'll play X for a while, take it out to try Y, take Y out to try Z, later on I'll take out A to put X back in, etc.
My decklist only changes a bit each time, but it changes frequently. That's half the fun of EDH, especially since one of the things my deck does that I love is pack lots of win-cons. Always fun to take one out for a new one, or more support, and watch as my opponents name my win-con with Declaration of Naught or Meddling Mage. Then I laugh and win without it, since it's NOT IN MY DECK >=D
Can't hurt! I have a stack of like, 50 cards sitting in my Dragon's Egg, and it consists entirely of random cards that I cycle in and out of my EDH deck. I'll play X for a while, take it out to try Y, take Y out to try Z, later on I'll take out A to put X back in, etc.
My decklist only changes a bit each time, but it changes frequently. That's half the fun of EDH, especially since one of the things my deck does that I love is pack lots of win-cons. Always fun to take one out for a new one, or more support, and watch as my opponents name my win-con with Declaration of Naught or Meddling Mage. Then I laugh and win without it, since it's NOT IN MY DECK >=D
yeah, my deck lineups shift frequently, too. i love experimenting with new cards, hence the addition of sisters of stone death for no real reason. she is just fun. i'm about to get off work and go up to my local store and lay down some vorosh beatings! rith, the awakener, and karrthus, tyrant of jund will see some action, too.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
yeah, my deck lineups shift frequently, too. i love experimenting with new cards, hence the addition of sisters of stone death for no real reason. she is just fun. i'm about to get off work and go up to my local store and lay down some vorosh beatings! rith, the awakener, and karrthus, tyrant of jund will see some action, too.
Part of it is the playgroup. Sometimes something is great one week, and the next it's garbage because everyone has hate for it, or countermeasures. Sometimes everyone runs more fatties, so I can shift my mana curve up; sometimes they think the game is too slow, so the mana curve on everyone's deck drops a bit to speed things up. EDH is a very mutable thing.
Be sure to keep us updated on how your game goes, and how your new deck build works.
Part of it is the playgroup. Sometimes something is great one week, and the next it's garbage because everyone has hate for it, or countermeasures. Sometimes everyone runs more fatties, so I can shift my mana curve up; sometimes they think the game is too slow, so the mana curve on everyone's deck drops a bit to speed things up. EDH is a very mutable thing.
Be sure to keep us updated on how your game goes, and how your new deck build works.
i think i played a total of five games with it this weekend. i lost once, but in my defense, it was a guy that is just getting back in to magic. he had never played edh before, and i was letting him pilot my karrthus, tyrant of jund deck. i must say, getting beaten by my own deck kind of stings. he plays karrthus, and attacks me (7 general damage). next turn, cauldron dance, grabbing hellkite charger out of the yard, and putting bladewing the risen in from his hand, bladewing grabs broodmate dragon. he kills me with general damage from two attack phases, and my other opponent with his other beasties.
I don't really remember all the games, and wasn't taking notes, so I'll just post a couple things that stick out.
One game, against Experiment Kraaj and Intet, the Dreamer, the game had been going for a while, with everyone just setting up their mana. I think it was like my eighth or ninth turn, and I had 11 lands, my general, and sensei's diving top on the board and had dropped a mana reflection the previous turn, with neither of my opponents having an answer for it. Which was good, because knowing their decks and the way they play, if either had a counter for mana reflection, it would have happened. I untap, draw, and then tap 5 lands for an entwined tooth and nail. I choose seedborn muse and sphinx of magosi (in retrospect i could have picked something better than sphinx, but hadn't played him since i added him in the deck),spin the top with my floating mana, play a land, attack kraaj-player for 12 vorosh damage and pump him, and then end the turn. opponent after me untaps (me too!), then attempts to draw, at which point i cast time stop. next turn, my opponent untaps (me too!) and top decks akroma's vengeance. he smiles (he knows i don't play THAT many counters, and i've already denied a number of spells). he casts vengeance, and i respond by dumping six mana into the sphinx, netting me two cards, then dump the rest into my pool, and play capsize with buyback targetting mana reflection, targetting seedborn muse, targetting sphinx of magosi, and then let vengeance resolve. next turn i play mana reflection, lay a land, then play my general and seedborn muse. they scoop due to capsize, seedborn muse, mana reflection lock.
next game, we played two-headed giant. on my team was the guy i mentioned earlier, piloting my karrthus. we played against experiment kraaj and merieke ri berit.
it was a neutral game, with neither side gaining much of an advantage. both my deck and my teammate's deck were not seeing mana, so we were both about two land drops behind. we have just been responding to their plays, and eating lots of damage from a scute mob and a lorescale coatl (god they both get huge!!!). kraaj player is drawing endless cards from rhystic study, and merieke is drawing from mind's eye. kraaj had just tooth and nailed for a terastodon, targetting my urborg, tomb of yawgmoth and my phyrexian tower (infinite turn enabler), and also my teammate's mind's eye. so here i am with like four lands in play and a couple of useless 3/3's. they pass, and i draw a land, drop it and spin the top (finding three lands). i do nothing, and my teammate does some ramping, leaving four mana open, and we pass. next turn, merieke player attempts to rite of replication with kicker, targetting terastodon. my partner responds with wild ricochet! they respond with voidslime, which i totally force of will. wild ricochet resolves, we get a bunch of terastodons and blow up all their lands and their card-drawing. they scoop. neither one had another land in their hand ha.
i'll take some notes next time i play, and post them here.
"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
So, last night I acquired some goodies in a trade. A foil Liliana Vess and a Nirkana Revenant. I wanted to add them to my list, especially Nirkana. Also, there were a number of cards that I hadn't been too pleased with, so I took them out to make room for my newly acquired cards, and a couple more. I have yet to playtest with these minor changes, but I am optimistic.
"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
The only thing I know this deck *needs* is a Liliana Vess. But basically I play against two groups: My casual slowly getting competitive group is exploring with Mnemonic Wall + Time Stretch + Enabler and those wonderful Eldrazi. So, its this Vorosh Deck, a U/B Faires deck which does the same basic thing + Lots of Control, a Zur the Enchanter deck which hasn't been updated in a while.
This deck normally does fine but it has very few ways of stopping the U/B control deck from flipping out and taking infinite turns.
Then there is a more competitive section at our local shop with a Future-Sight combo deck, and a balls to the wall Rafiq of the Many deck. Basically I'm just looking for some fine tuning advice.
The only thing I know this deck *needs* is a Liliana Vess. But basically I play against two groups: My casual slowly getting competitive group is exploring with Mnemonic Wall + Time Stretch + Enabler and those wonderful Eldrazi. So, its this Vorosh Deck, a U/B Faires deck which does the same basic thing + Lots of Control, a Zur the Enchanter deck which hasn't been updated in a while.
This deck normally does fine but it has very few ways of stopping the U/B control deck from flipping out and taking infinite turns.
Then there is a more competitive section at our local shop with a Future-Sight combo deck, and a balls to the wall Rafiq of the Many deck. Basically I'm just looking for some fine tuning advice.
"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
I agree on Far Wanderings for Vegetation, and some more graveyard hate couldn't hurt, and that is one of the best ones.
If I'm going to take out a card for Lim-Dul's vault, it would be Diabolic Vision. I also would like to find something to cut for Crucible. I think cutting Vedalken Orrery for Liliana Vess is a good choice, but I really like Greater Good and Overbeing. There's a lot of control magic going around so Greater Good is very good for fizzling spells. But I guess I don't run many creatures.
I agree on Far Wanderings for Vegetation, and some more graveyard hate couldn't hurt, and that is one of the best ones.
If I'm going to take out a card for Lim-Dul's vault, it would be Diabolic Vision. I also would like to find something to cut for Crucible. I think cutting Vedalken Orrery for Liliana Vess is a good choice, but I really like Greater Good and Overbeing. There's a lot of control magic going around so Greater Good is very good for fizzling spells. But I guess I don't run many creatures.
yeah i hate mana vault, too. some people like it though, so i suggested it. grim monolith is better. as far as etherium sculptor, seems like something better could go in the slot. but that is a great combo, nonetheless.
orrery for vess is good. and vision for vault is a fine trade, too. btw, i don't like FoF at all, but everyone seems to.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
I know the OP has one, but where's your Fireshrieker?
It's out of here because it's not as relevant to the goals of the deck, and to tutor it instead of greaves/jitte/top/sol ring would be a waste with Tezzert.
The deck only uses Vorosh to have a win condition when playing infinite turns, in that when I start flipping and comboing out to Bounce Mnemonic wall and recur time-stretch every other turn, it doesn't matter wether it takes me two turns to kill them with Vorosh or three.
It's out of here because it's not as relevant to the goals of the deck, and to tutor it instead of greaves/jitte/top/sol ring would be a waste with Tezzert.
The deck only uses Vorosh to have a win condition when playing infinite turns, in that when I start flipping and comboing out to Bounce Mnemonic wall and recur time-stretch every other turn, it doesn't matter wether it takes me two turns to kill them with Vorosh or three.
you can't rely on the combo to win every time. you have to have back up plans. i know of several ways i could ☺☺☺☺ up your combo. i have infinite turns in my deck, but i also have several other solid win cons and strategies. just saying, don't devote yourself too much to the combo.
and as for jitte, it doesn't perform as great in edh as it does in other formats.
in other news, played some good fnm edh last night. i'll post game notes on monday probably, when i'm procrastinating at work.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
you can't rely on the combo to win every time. you have to have back up plans. i know of several ways i could ☺☺☺☺ up your combo. i have infinite turns in my deck, but i also have several other solid win cons and strategies. just saying, don't devote yourself too much to the combo.
and as for jitte, it doesn't perform as great in edh as it does in other formats.
in other news, played some good fnm edh last night. i'll post game notes on monday probably, when i'm procrastinating at work.
I wasn't saying that it was the only way for the deck to win, albiet it is the main win condition. I just seriously do not consider it a step up from Jitte's Versatility or worthwhile to force a card out of the deck for. I would honestly run it if it said: Attack with Vorosh, do you have 2G open? You kill that player.
Basically the deck wants to:
-Take Infinite Turns as soon as possible
-Get Future Sight/Magus + Top + Sculptor, win
-Resolve Sorin
Otherwise it flounders, and in my opinion, I'm not sure if Fireshrieker really gives me an alternative. If attached to Vorosh, it gives him 2 turns to kill someone, which you can do the same with an equiped Jitte. (Swing, do 6 damage, give counters, do 12 damage, swing for 12 double strike =42 Damage versus Swing, do 6 damage, give counters, swing for 12 +2x +2/+2 = 22 Damage).
I wasn't saying that it was the only way for the deck to win, albiet it is the main win condition. I just seriously do not consider it a step up from Jitte's Versatility or worthwhile to force a card out of the deck for. I would honestly run it if it said: Attack with Vorosh, do you have 2G open? You kill that player.
Basically the deck wants to:
-Take Infinite Turns as soon as possible
-Get Future Sight/Magus + Top + Sculptor, win
-Resolve Sorin
Otherwise it flounders, and in my opinion, I'm not sure if Fireshrieker really gives me an alternative. If attached to Vorosh, it gives him 2 turns to kill someone, which you can do the same with an equiped Jitte. (Swing, do 6 damage, give counters, do 12 damage, swing for 12 double strike =42 Damage versus Swing, do 6 damage, give counters, swing for 12 +2x +2/+2 = 22 Damage).
man, my infinite turn combo is my last resort. if ☺☺☺☺ is just not going my way at all, i'll pull that combo out of my ass and win. but i try not to win with it, and usually don't need to.
why is resolving sorin a priority for the deck? in multiplayer, it drops one person to ten, which is good, but then turns everyones' heads your way and you have to wait two turns to do it again (three if you wanna keep him).
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
i wanted to make some room for a couple of basics, so i took out my revised duals, cause i was actually borrowing them from a friend. sucks, but i needed more basics anyways, like i said.
i've been playing this deck non-stop since i posted my list, and i've been undefeated with it in 7 matches, and an eighth where my ally in a star game saw that i was about to kill my last opponent and conceded to keep me from winning (the bastard! i had a capsize lock with nirkana revenant, seedborn muse, mana reflection, and urborg, tomb of yawgmoth in play. i wasn't going anywhere.)
anyways, been fine tuning it. took out some things.
i'll be piloting it tonight at tuesday night magic, gotta dish out some beatings. and turn a creature into a 3/3 green ape for U.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
1 Vorosh, the Hunter (FOIL)
Lands (37)
6 Forest (FOIL)
6 Island (FOIL)
3 Swamp (FOIL)
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers (FOIL)
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse (FOIL)
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge (FOIL)
1 Breeding Pool (FOIL)
1 Watery Grave (FOIL)
1 Overgrown Tomb (FOIL)
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs (FOIL)
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Grove (FOIL)
1 Sunken Ruins (FOIL)
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Dust Bowl
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Academy Ruins (FOIL)
1 Reliquary Tower (FOIL)
1 Cabal Coffers (FOIL)
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (FOIL)
1 Tolaria West (FOIL)
Counters (9)
1 Force of Will (FOIL)
1 Hinder (FOIL)
1 Time Stop (FOIL)
1 Desertion
1 Cryptic Command (FOIL)
1 Mindbreak Trap (FOIL)
1 Voidslime (FOIL)
1 Scattering Stroke (FOIL)
1 Trickbind (FOIL)
1 Rune-Scarred Demon (FOIL)
1 Tooth and Nail (FOIL)
1 Mystical Tutor (FOIL)
1 Vampiric Tutor (FOIL)
1 Mystical Teachings (FOIL)
1 Demonic Tutor (FOIL)
Mana Fixing (13)
1 Primeval Titan (FOIL)
1 Skyshroud Claim (FOIL)
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder (FOIL)
1 Thran Dynamo (FOIL)
1 Oracle of Mul Daya (FOIL)
1 Grim Monolith (FOIL)
1 Mind Stone (FOIL)
1 Darksteel Ingot (FOIL)
1 Explosive Vegetation (FOIL)
1 Kodama's Reach (FOIL)
1 Nature's Lore
1 Sol Ring (FOIL)
1 Cultivate (FOIL)
Removal (11)
1 Damnation (FOIL)
1 Pongify (FOIL)
1 Decree of Pain (FOIL)
1 Evacuation (FOIL)
1 Capsize (FOIL)
1 Spin into Myth (FOIL)
1 Duplicant (FOIL)
1 Woodfall Primus (FOIL)
1 Krosan Grip (FOIL)
1 Acidic Slime (FOIL)
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (FOIL)
1 Necropotence (FOIL)
1 Momentous Fall (FOIL)
1 Sphinx of Magosi (FOIL)
1 Consecrated Sphinx (FOIL)
Card Selection (3)
1 Future Sight (FOIL)
1 Sensei's Divining Top (FOIL)
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
Defense (2)
1 Propaganda
1 Kathari Remnant (FOIL)
Theft/Copy (5)
1 Treachery (FOIL)
1 Rite of Replication (FOIL)
1 Gather Specimens (FOIL)
1 Clone (FOIL)
1 Gilded Drake
Recursion (3)
1 Crystal Shard
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Eternal Witness
Other Goodies (6)
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (FOIL)
1 Exsanguinate (FOIL)
1 Leyline of Anticipation (FOIL)
1 Palinchron (FOIL)
1 Profane Command (FOIL)
1 Seedborn Muse (FOIL)
Generate card advantage and then beatdown or combo out.
EDIT: List current as of 03/10/12.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
I'd actually drop the Take Possession for either the Blue Magemark or the Horned Helm (and maybe a few other cards to give him more trample options).
Sisters of Stone Death is great in EDH, but I'd rather have it as a General than on the actual deck. She gets more mileage that way. I recommend cutting her for a Mul Daya Channelers or a Solemn Simulacrum. Or a Future Sight.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
I added Take Possession a while ago, just to see how it played and if I would like it, but I have yet to actually draw it. I do like your suggestion, though, and will probably replace it with horned helm. Can you use the GG ability at instant speed?
I JUST added Sisters. I was getting bored with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and wanted to add something I hadn't used before. I'm going to keep it in there for now. Also, I only have two Solemn Simulacrum, and they are in my other two EDH decks. Once I trade for another, it is definitely going in. I don't particularly care for Future Sight and similar effects. I don't like people knowing what's in my grip.
Thanks for the feedback.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
Yes, you can attach it at instant speed. Equip, the keyword, can only be used at sorcery speed. The effect on Horned Helm is GG: Attach this to a creature. That's instant speed, no problem.
Also, Future Sight effects are great. They may know what you've got, but that might help you. Counterspell on top of your deck? Well, they're not even gonna try to cast their game-breaker. And they won't until they have counter backup of their own or you use it up. And even if you didn't counter the spell, that's still 2, 3, maybe 4 or more turns that they didn't play the spell.
I run Magus of the Future, and I love it. It's great with CounterTop, since I can leave something up top and basically tell everyone "Don't bother even trying". And then if they try something else, Top!
The latest Comprehensive Rules are also good, and can be found here.
Oh, I completely understand WHY they are used, a couple of people at my local store/playgroup play them, I just don't particularly care for that strategy.
If I were going to run something that revealed, I would prob run Counterbalance.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
You might want to give Counterbalance a try, especially since you already have a top. It's not super reliable, especially without a lot of shuffling, but it can really save your hide. And, at worst, it'll act as a target for enchantment removal, which means they have one less to use on stuff you actually WANT to keep.
Our playgroup is considering banning Top, just because it makes games take way, way too long. I use Top + Counterbalance, another guy uses Top + Lurking Predators, another uses Top + Baneful Omen, etc. It's not bad, until you get the idiots who have to use Top EVERY CHANCE THEY CAN, without shuffles. I mean, really. It's not like the top 3 cards have changed in the past 2 phases. I can understand it with Predators, or Counterbalance, or if you need to draw one of them by tapping the Top, but just rearranging them for the hell of it slows things down too much.
The latest Comprehensive Rules are also good, and can be found here.
and yeah, I know what you're saying about top. I spin the top frequently, but I never take more than just a second or two to arrange, except in cases where I have to figure out how to worm my way out of a sticky situation, that might take a tiny bit of deliberation.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
It is, if they are mainly playing counterspells or removal. But it isn't a game-breaking advantage. It adds another level of strategy to the game play. At it's most basic form, knowing what is in your opponent's hand is hand disruption.
The thing about Future Sight is they are only getting one card at a time; the rest of your hand is invisible. At the same time, it gives you another card every time you cast something from the top of your deck. Oracle of Mul Daya, Magus of the Future, and the enchantment itself are all acceleration. Consider how much mana your deck generates by turn 6, or even later. These cards allow you to churn through your deck in search of answers or threats, while simultaneously giving you card advantage each time.
The point is who cares if they know what it is if it's going onto the stack within three seconds? Mana Reflection+Cabal Coffers+Deck Manipulation (Future Sight)=Board Position.
The reason Future Sight is rated higher than the Magus, BTW, is FS dodges a large number of common board-sweepers. It's usually pinpoint removal that hits the enchantments, not a sweeper (Fracturing Gust and Austere Command are the ones that are usually run, and even those tend to be rare in most metas). The advantage of always having another card to play no matter how many cards are in your hand far outweighs the drawback of them knowing what it is.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
I run the Magus because the only boardwipes that my playgroup sees are often kill-everything kind. Scourglass, Disk, Magus of the Disk, Akroma's Vengeance, etc. It'll die all the same. I'll probably put the enchantment in later, though, in place of the Magus. I just had a Magus, but did not have a Future Sight.
Also, OP, like he said FS only shows off the top card of your deck, not your whole hand. And I decided not to run Telepathy after some deliberation, because all it would do is give me a head's-up. My friends and I refer to Yugioh for this: We call it the Pegasus Paradox. Just because you know what's coming doesn't mean you can stop it. That's pretty much how Yugi beats Pegasus in the show. Pegasus knows all his cards and how he'll use them, but at one point, Yugi basically says "Oh you know what I'm doing. Too bad you have no way of stopping it". I mean, think about a guy with a shotgun pointed at you and a guy with a sniper rifle a mile away. Both can kill you dead, even though you only know about one of them. And, like Titan said, it matters even LESS if you're just gonna play it immediately. I think you should at least give the cards a try. It's such fun late game with a Mirari's Wake or a Mana Reflection, or even better, BOTH, and just playing the top 5 or 6 cards of your deck one after the other.
The latest Comprehensive Rules are also good, and can be found here.
fair enough. i'll give it a shot when i reacquire one.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
Can't hurt! I have a stack of like, 50 cards sitting in my Dragon's Egg, and it consists entirely of random cards that I cycle in and out of my EDH deck. I'll play X for a while, take it out to try Y, take Y out to try Z, later on I'll take out A to put X back in, etc.
My decklist only changes a bit each time, but it changes frequently. That's half the fun of EDH, especially since one of the things my deck does that I love is pack lots of win-cons. Always fun to take one out for a new one, or more support, and watch as my opponents name my win-con with Declaration of Naught or Meddling Mage. Then I laugh and win without it, since it's NOT IN MY DECK >=D
The latest Comprehensive Rules are also good, and can be found here.
yeah, my deck lineups shift frequently, too. i love experimenting with new cards, hence the addition of sisters of stone death for no real reason. she is just fun. i'm about to get off work and go up to my local store and lay down some vorosh beatings! rith, the awakener, and karrthus, tyrant of jund will see some action, too.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
Part of it is the playgroup. Sometimes something is great one week, and the next it's garbage because everyone has hate for it, or countermeasures. Sometimes everyone runs more fatties, so I can shift my mana curve up; sometimes they think the game is too slow, so the mana curve on everyone's deck drops a bit to speed things up. EDH is a very mutable thing.
Be sure to keep us updated on how your game goes, and how your new deck build works.
The latest Comprehensive Rules are also good, and can be found here.
i think i played a total of five games with it this weekend. i lost once, but in my defense, it was a guy that is just getting back in to magic. he had never played edh before, and i was letting him pilot my karrthus, tyrant of jund deck. i must say, getting beaten by my own deck kind of stings. he plays karrthus, and attacks me (7 general damage). next turn, cauldron dance, grabbing hellkite charger out of the yard, and putting bladewing the risen in from his hand, bladewing grabs broodmate dragon. he kills me with general damage from two attack phases, and my other opponent with his other beasties.
I don't really remember all the games, and wasn't taking notes, so I'll just post a couple things that stick out.
One game, against Experiment Kraaj and Intet, the Dreamer, the game had been going for a while, with everyone just setting up their mana. I think it was like my eighth or ninth turn, and I had 11 lands, my general, and sensei's diving top on the board and had dropped a mana reflection the previous turn, with neither of my opponents having an answer for it. Which was good, because knowing their decks and the way they play, if either had a counter for mana reflection, it would have happened. I untap, draw, and then tap 5 lands for an entwined tooth and nail. I choose seedborn muse and sphinx of magosi (in retrospect i could have picked something better than sphinx, but hadn't played him since i added him in the deck),spin the top with my floating mana, play a land, attack kraaj-player for 12 vorosh damage and pump him, and then end the turn. opponent after me untaps (me too!), then attempts to draw, at which point i cast time stop. next turn, my opponent untaps (me too!) and top decks akroma's vengeance. he smiles (he knows i don't play THAT many counters, and i've already denied a number of spells). he casts vengeance, and i respond by dumping six mana into the sphinx, netting me two cards, then dump the rest into my pool, and play capsize with buyback targetting mana reflection, targetting seedborn muse, targetting sphinx of magosi, and then let vengeance resolve. next turn i play mana reflection, lay a land, then play my general and seedborn muse. they scoop due to capsize, seedborn muse, mana reflection lock.
next game, we played two-headed giant. on my team was the guy i mentioned earlier, piloting my karrthus. we played against experiment kraaj and merieke ri berit.
it was a neutral game, with neither side gaining much of an advantage. both my deck and my teammate's deck were not seeing mana, so we were both about two land drops behind. we have just been responding to their plays, and eating lots of damage from a scute mob and a lorescale coatl (god they both get huge!!!). kraaj player is drawing endless cards from rhystic study, and merieke is drawing from mind's eye. kraaj had just tooth and nailed for a terastodon, targetting my urborg, tomb of yawgmoth and my phyrexian tower (infinite turn enabler), and also my teammate's mind's eye. so here i am with like four lands in play and a couple of useless 3/3's. they pass, and i draw a land, drop it and spin the top (finding three lands). i do nothing, and my teammate does some ramping, leaving four mana open, and we pass. next turn, merieke player attempts to rite of replication with kicker, targetting terastodon. my partner responds with wild ricochet! they respond with voidslime, which i totally force of will. wild ricochet resolves, we get a bunch of terastodons and blow up all their lands and their card-drawing. they scoop. neither one had another land in their hand ha.
i'll take some notes next time i play, and post them here.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
-Vedalken Orrery
-Blatant Thievery
-Time Warp
-Memory Plunder
+Pithing Needle
+Liliana Vess
+Nirkana Revenant
+Reap and Sow (or Crop Rotation, maybe?)
I figure Mana Reflection #2 likes me to have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play, and Liliana can help that happen, for sure. Reap and Sow, can get me one of the key lands (Urborg, Cabal Coffers, Volrath's Stronghold, Phyrexian Tower), and/or blow up a troublesome land like Maze of Ith, or Karakas. Pithing Needle is just something I have meant to add for a while to shut down annoying guys like Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary or Intet, the Dreamer.
Any thoughts or experience playing Stunted Growth?
I also kind of want to add a Deserted Temple, for Cabal Coffers shenanigans, but I'm unsure what lands to lose or if it is even worth it.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
1 Vorosh, the Hunter
Creatures (17)
2 Etherium Sculptor
3 Echo Mage
4 Yavimaya Elder
5 Eternal Witness
6 Mystic Snake
7 Clone
8 Oracle of Mul Daya
9 Solemn Simulacrum
10 Overbeing of Myth
11 Mulldrifter
12 Magus of the Future
13 Mnemonic Wall
14 Draining Whelk
15 Pestilence Demon
16 Woodfall Primus
17 Artisan of Kozilek
18 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Sorceries (20)
19 Ponder
20 Reanimate
21 Diabolic Vision
22 Chainer's Edict
23 Profane Command
24 Regrowth
25 Demonic Tutor
26 Far Wanderings
27 Kodama's Reach
28 Maelstrom Pulse
29 Damnation
30 Rite of Replication
31 Barter in Blood
32 Promise of Power
33 Primal Command
34 Time Warp
35 Restock
36 All is Dust
37 Decree of Pain
38 Time Stretch
39 Mystical Tutor
40 Vampiric Tutor
41 Voidslime
42 Realms Uncharted
43 Krosan Grip
44 Putrefy
45 Fact or Fiction
46 Desertion
47 Time Stop
Enchantments (7)
48 Rhystic Study
49 Phyrexian Arena
50 Necropotence
51 Pernicious Deed
52 Awakening Zone
53 Greater Good
54 Decree of Silence
Planeswalkers (4)
55 Garruk Wildspeaker
56 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
57 Tezzeret the Seeker
58 Sorin Markov
Artifacts (8)
59 Expedition Map
58 Sensei's Divining Top
59 Sol Ring
60 Lightning Greaves
61 Umezawa's Jitte
62 Simic Signet
63 Coalition Relic
64 Vedalken Orrery
Lands (35)
65 Underground Sea
66 Bayou
67 Tropical Island
68 Verdant Catacombs
69 Misty Rainforest
70 Polluted Delta
71 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
72 Volrath's Stronghold
73 Temple of the False God
74 Treetop Village
75 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
76 Rupture Spire
77 Vivid Grove
78 Jwar Isle Refuge
79 Tainted Isle
80 Tainted Wood
81 Golgari Rot Farm
82 Maze of Ith
83 Evolving Wilds
84 Swamp
85 Swamp
86 Swamp
87 Swamp
88 Island
89 Island
90 Island
91 Island
92 Island
93 Forest
94 Forest
95 Forest
96 Forest
97 Forest
98 Forest
99 Reliquary Tower
100 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
The only thing I know this deck *needs* is a Liliana Vess. But basically I play against two groups: My casual slowly getting competitive group is exploring with Mnemonic Wall + Time Stretch + Enabler and those wonderful Eldrazi. So, its this Vorosh Deck, a U/B Faires deck which does the same basic thing + Lots of Control, a Zur the Enchanter deck which hasn't been updated in a while.
This deck normally does fine but it has very few ways of stopping the U/B control deck from flipping out and taking infinite turns.
Then there is a more competitive section at our local shop with a Future-Sight combo deck, and a balls to the wall Rafiq of the Many deck. Basically I'm just looking for some fine tuning advice.
i would take out etherium sculptor for maybe a mana vault or grim monolith.
i would take out greater good or overbeing of myth for lim-dul's vault. it is an insanely powerful deck setup/tutor tool at instant speed for two mana. play it.
vedalken orrery is questionable.
you mentioned playing a against a recurring time stretch. withered wretch should help that. dissipate and faerie trickery do the job.
you could also replace far wanderings with explosive vegetation. its more consistent.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
I agree on Far Wanderings for Vegetation, and some more graveyard hate couldn't hurt, and that is one of the best ones.
If I'm going to take out a card for Lim-Dul's vault, it would be Diabolic Vision. I also would like to find something to cut for Crucible. I think cutting Vedalken Orrery for Liliana Vess is a good choice, but I really like Greater Good and Overbeing. There's a lot of control magic going around so Greater Good is very good for fizzling spells. But I guess I don't run many creatures.
I've never liked Mana Vault and Etherium Sculptor combos with Magus of the Future and Sensei's Divining Top. But I guess if I'm not more artifact heavy, it's not that good in the deck.
yeah i hate mana vault, too. some people like it though, so i suggested it. grim monolith is better. as far as etherium sculptor, seems like something better could go in the slot. but that is a great combo, nonetheless.
orrery for vess is good. and vision for vault is a fine trade, too. btw, i don't like FoF at all, but everyone seems to.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
Most recently looking at Morinfen!
It's out of here because it's not as relevant to the goals of the deck, and to tutor it instead of greaves/jitte/top/sol ring would be a waste with Tezzert.
The deck only uses Vorosh to have a win condition when playing infinite turns, in that when I start flipping and comboing out to Bounce Mnemonic wall and recur time-stretch every other turn, it doesn't matter wether it takes me two turns to kill them with Vorosh or three.
you can't rely on the combo to win every time. you have to have back up plans. i know of several ways i could ☺☺☺☺ up your combo. i have infinite turns in my deck, but i also have several other solid win cons and strategies. just saying, don't devote yourself too much to the combo.
and as for jitte, it doesn't perform as great in edh as it does in other formats.
in other news, played some good fnm edh last night. i'll post game notes on monday probably, when i'm procrastinating at work.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
I wasn't saying that it was the only way for the deck to win, albiet it is the main win condition. I just seriously do not consider it a step up from Jitte's Versatility or worthwhile to force a card out of the deck for. I would honestly run it if it said: Attack with Vorosh, do you have 2G open? You kill that player.
Basically the deck wants to:
-Take Infinite Turns as soon as possible
-Get Future Sight/Magus + Top + Sculptor, win
-Resolve Sorin
Otherwise it flounders, and in my opinion, I'm not sure if Fireshrieker really gives me an alternative. If attached to Vorosh, it gives him 2 turns to kill someone, which you can do the same with an equiped Jitte. (Swing, do 6 damage, give counters, do 12 damage, swing for 12 double strike =42 Damage versus Swing, do 6 damage, give counters, swing for 12 +2x +2/+2 = 22 Damage).
man, my infinite turn combo is my last resort. if ☺☺☺☺ is just not going my way at all, i'll pull that combo out of my ass and win. but i try not to win with it, and usually don't need to.
why is resolving sorin a priority for the deck? in multiplayer, it drops one person to ten, which is good, but then turns everyones' heads your way and you have to wait two turns to do it again (three if you wanna keep him).
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
i've been playing this deck non-stop since i posted my list, and i've been undefeated with it in 7 matches, and an eighth where my ally in a star game saw that i was about to kill my last opponent and conceded to keep me from winning (the bastard! i had a capsize lock with nirkana revenant, seedborn muse, mana reflection, and urborg, tomb of yawgmoth in play. i wasn't going anywhere.)
anyways, been fine tuning it. took out some things.
removed: ghost quarter, 3 revised duals :'(, horned helm, long-term plans
added: forest, island, skyshroud claim, mystic snake, pongify, pestilence demon (i wanted another finisher and another wipe, he serves both purposes).
i'll be piloting it tonight at tuesday night magic, gotta dish out some beatings. and turn a creature into a 3/3 green ape for U.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB