This is only being built for 1v1 so please keep that in mind when making suggestions or modeling a deck after mine.
Twikite (playing Isamaru) and I were preparing for a local EDH tournament that was strictly 1v1 matches and single elimination so I was looking to improve this deck as much as possible to aim for 1st place which I sadly didn't have the cards for at the time.
So originally I had a deck of silver bullets but then I came across Frylock Dude's Zur decklist for a counter heavy deck and decided to give it a try against Twikite's Isamaru deck. It seems to do just fine and his biggest threats to my deck were Scepter of Dominance tapping Zur down if I hadn't managed to shroud him yet. But as I evolved my version from having as much as 31 counters I realized dealing with other problematic generals such as Braids, Cabal Minion (who's now banned) that I needed more 1cc spot removal and have since slimmed down on the amount of counters but they're still the focus of my deck.
So after playing my "OBJECTION!" deck with the absurd amount of counters I was undefeated in the first 2 rounds. Until I came up against Braids, Cabal Minion ( ) and I was dead game 1 due to having too few lands in hand. My opponent went first played a swamp and passed. Then I played land + sol ring and passed. Then my opponent played Smallpox forcing me to sac a land. I played a land on my next turn and missed several land drops from then on. It was a playable hand if I hadn't lost a land so quickly.
2nd game against braids I got locked QUICK, Braids, Cabal Minion came out on turn 2 and there was nothing I could do. So I forced my opponent to finish the game even though I had no chance of winning and hounded him to play faster. :mad1: (He's one of my friends otherwise I wouldn't have done that.) Afterwards I was like high-five great job...... you bastad.
We played a 3rd game for fun but again I was sacrificing lands to Braids, Cabal Minion early on but not before my opponent played a 3cc LD spell (either Rain of Tears or Rancid Earth i don't remember) on one of my multicolored lands.:-/ Somehow I managed to recover somewhat later but we had to quit before we could finish since the cardshop was closing. Funny enough though he had Mox Diamond and swamp on turn 1 and I thought he was about to play Dark Ritual into Braids, Cabal Minon at which point I was going to overturn the table onto his face. As entertaining as that would have been he did not.
So after my experience of playing against Braids, Cabal Minion I have to wonder if its just the worst matchup for Zur, the Enchanter or if there are some improvements I could make to handle such a matchup without crippling the overpowered amount of control that the deck has against other players?
Don't worry, braids just slaps everyone in the face. try playing as much 1cc removal as possible (like swords) and hope you hand hold em off.
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Quote from Fry, from Futurama »
It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
oh yea lol I forgot to mention that play. I condemned his braids in game one and he just played demonic tutor in his 2nd main to get braids right back, talk about an unlucky turn of events for me.:nike:
I've tried to run as many counters that are below 4cc as possible. I prefer to get the effect of a hard counter or at least have a cheap counter forcing them to pay more which they usually can't early to mid game. The few 4cc that are left I may end up cutting for more spot removal i.e. (Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Diabolic Edict, & Æther Spellbomb" target="blank">Æther Spellbomb) and maybe I'll just add some 1cc counters for tempo control early game like Force Spike.
After naming my deck "Zur says, OBJECTION!" (purely for the amount of countermagic and removal) I was looking at Zur and it actually looks like he's doing a lazy version of the Phoenix Wright point.
Don't worry, braids just slaps everyone in the face. Try playing as much 1cc removal as possible (like swords) and hope your hand holds 'em off.
I've cut down the counterspells to just 20 which seems fine so far and added more 1cc removal like you suggested, but I haven't tested it against Braids yet. I mainly have been playtesting against Twikite's deck. I cut several of the CipT lands so I can curve into early game control better. Islands work just fine since the majority of my spells are blue.
I'm thinking about taking out Hall of the Bandit Lord because its another CipT land and most of the time I would rather have mana open for counters and removal than worrying about getting Zur out with haste. Lightning Greaves work so much better for giving Zur haste and they save me from needing to grab Diplomatic Immunity making my first swing with Zur more relevant in damage or control.
Cards that all begin with the letter A to maybe consider (I'm not versed in Zur, so some of these may already be deemed unplayable or weak by the Zur Advocates Community). Just brainstorming a little.
Seems like maybe if you need to dig and find that key piece or removal or something, you might use your first Zur swing to grab this and then dig ten cards down... ?
Cards that all begin with the letter A to maybe consider (I'm not versed in Zur, so some of these may already be deemed unplayable or weak by the Zur Advocates Community). Just brainstorming a little.
Seems like maybe if you need to dig and find that key piece or removal or something, you might use your first Zur swing to grab this and then dig ten cards down... ?
Wow! Just wow! How did I miss this card. This is an auto include as soon as I get my hands on one. Thank you for the suggestion!
True this would be but usually I don't have time to grab cards that are narrow situational protection for Zur. Counterspells will handle most of that stuff and Vanishing handles the rest which is just broken because its reusable and when he phases out the enchantments and equipment attached to Zur stay on him. So this enchantment is certainly usable but if he dies he gets un-equipped and any enchantments on him go to the graveyard so its maybe an include for a multiplayer version where you mainly use him for silver bullets that help you control the game.
I have Rule of Law white version of Arcane Laboratory and again its just one of those cards that is probably more for multiplayer, but I think Erayo's Essence and Arcane Laboratory could have a place in my 1v1 version even though I cannot tutor Erayo with Zur I do have other tutors in the deck that are capable.
I'm guessing daybreak coronet is just plan better, so this would be redundant?
Actually the cloak would just be AMAZING in a Zur deck but since EDH makes you play with your General's colors only I sadly cannot use it since it has green in the casting cost. Which is a shame cause you know I'd love to run it and Rancor.
Zur seems like a nasty way to get this online, but perhaps this pulls the deck away from its enchantment focus?
Thanks for the tournament report... fun to see how others navigated the field. I'm happy I didn't have to face Braids.
I just don't know about Artificer's Intuition. It really does seem to pull away from the theme of the deck. Not sure what I would use it for that would be worth including it.
I haven't posted my results from our tournament yet. Here are the highlights:
Swiss Round 1 I was first paired off against the dreaded Braids deck and I was just as unhappy about it as my friend piloting it was. However, all of my preparations from our last encounter during the EDH league night where I was locked two games in a row were well worth the effort. I won game 1 with a Capsize lock (its probably the most cruel and agonizing way to lose). Game 2 I can't remember if he turn 2 locked me or what. So game 2 or 3, all I remember was we went to time and I was basically a turn away from winning and he conceded.
Round 2 during swiss my opponent had played against me before during EDH league and didn't want to even bother so he conceded the moment we were announced as a pairing.
Round 3 I won in 3 against a Vorosh, the Hunter deck that was just running all kinds of broken spells. He hardly ever relied on his general.
Round 4 was against my buddy Twikite running Isamaru which he's been saying his chance to win against my deck is like 5% well he beat me in 2 due to my taking dumb risks and keeping hands that could have been bomb by drawing only 1 land and in both games I did not. Which just seemed entirely improbable especially since game 2 I had a blue source land along with Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top in my opening hand. I just couldn't see how I was gonna get land screwed for 6 turns. Oh well he needed the victory (for his morale and all that :)).
Top 8 I tied for 5th with Twikite and a couple others but I feel like I could have placed 1st/2nd easily had it not been for my unlucky pairing against the only deck running Boseiju, Who Shelters All which I defeated during the swiss (the Vorosh deck) and I had a quick victory for the first game during top 8 but he got Boseiju on both games 2 & 3 and ended my chance at 1st. Made me wish I was running more Land Destruction (Next time you should let me borrow your Sinkhole instead of lending it to the Braids deck).
Wow, I totally didn't see this thread until today. I'm kind of flattered that it's based off of my list. I do have a couple questions though.
First off, how is 38 lands working for you? With Zur being three colors, I haven't tested anything below 40 due to fear of land screw.
Second, Oblation seems like it would almost always(90%+) be used on the opposing general. Hero's Demise seems like it would be a better replacement.
Third, if you feel that the Boseiju situation may happen again, Wasteland may be a decent answer(although, if you don't own one already, I could see it going in the "too expensive" list).
Overall though, yours looks far more tuned than mine. Also, the swiss round 2 you had are the moments I live for.:p
I'm guessing daybreak coronet is just plan better, so this would be redundant?
Actually the cloak would just be AMAZING in a Zur deck but since EDH makes you play with your General's colors only I sadly cannot use it since it has green in the casting cost. Which is a shame cause you know I'd love to run it and Rancor.
Lol. Smart-A$$! Okay, so this was my "duh" moment. Since I introduced you to Ancestrall Knowledge, let's call it a wash and say we're even. lol.
I haven't posted my results from our tournament yet. Here are the highlights:
D'oh, looks like I was reading your Denny's report or something... the one with all the emoticons... I took that to be your report. I thought you won, though, so that explains that.
Good stuff. I'll probably go through the Zur enchantment pool again sometime, and I'll let you know what else I find. This time I'll be sure I'm on the right three colors. Lol.
Second, Oblation seems like it would almost always(90%+) be used on the opposing general. Hero's Demise seems like it would be a better replacement.
That's a nice card for me to consider but I like Oblation more simply for the fact that its instant speed shuffle your opponent's general into their library. Against a Braids deck I have killed braids turn 2 or 3 only to see her right back on the field the next turn because he is running mana exceleration as well so it doesn't always help just killing a general. If they don't have a tutor right away it could be several turns before they see their general again or not at all. Ofcourse I don't like making them draw 2 cards so there is always the option of Spin into Myth but I hate spending 5 mana on that and by the time I can cast it, it may be too late. The only downside to both of my prefered cards is that they aren't extremely useful other than general hate and that especially sucks when your opponent doesn't really rely on their general. A couple other good kill creature cards that are a little more well rounded than Hero's Demise are Unmake, Rend Flesh, and Eyeblight's Ending. Ofcourse the downside to these is they all cost 3 instead of 2. It's hard to say what is best since EDH is so situational.
Third, if you feel that the Boseiju situation may happen again, Wasteland may be a decent answer(although, if you don't own one already, I could see it going in the "too expensive" list).
Well one major problem against that particular opponent was that he ran Life from the Loam and continued to get back his important lands. Wasteland is something I would love to get for any of my EDH decks but I still haven't shelled out the dough for it. However I do already have Stripmine and can tutor for it with Tolaria West or any of my black tutors. Crucible of Worlds is something I would love to try in the deck once I get some fetch lands and wasteland. Heck I may even put back in a few cycling lands for repeatable card draw.
Overall though, yours looks far more tuned than mine. Also, the swiss round 2 you had are the moments I live for.:p
I'm still tuning it as I get each paycheck. Today I bought Ancestral Knowledge, Force of Will, and Mana Vault for it. I think the next cards I want for the deck are fetch lands and then maybe an original dual land or two. Yea it was good timing that my opponent simply conceded in round 2 I needed to call back my grandparents who's call I ignored during round 1.
I feel like my Zur deck handles 90-95% of the EDH decks out there really well. The issue with pushing it over to 99% is speed. The more dual lands and fetch lands you can run along with artifact mana excel like Mox Diamond (which I still need to get) will make it so much better at controlling the early game and assuring victory. I would always get annoyed with my early build having too many lands coming into play tapped.
I know you said you wanted to move away from silver bullets, but Declaration of Naught naming their general is tha sickness. Just thought i would mention it. Things get really bad when you actually draw it. God forbid in your opener.
I know you said you wanted to move away from silver bullets, but Declaration of Naught naming their general is tha sickness. Just thought i would mention it. Things get really bad when you actually draw it. God forbid in your opener.
Well oddly enough it wasn't in my deck list for the silver bullets version (it is in the list for silver bullets now) and I do have one in my pile of options for a Zur deck. I have used it before and I'll be honest I don't know how I left that off the list.
However, for the "Objection" version of the deck, I think that I've made the right choice by cutting it. I agree, it's bonkers against an opponent's general. However, if I have counters in hand I would rather have mana open early game so that I can stop any relevant spells instead of tapping out to put that thing down. And more importantly if I have Zur out I hardly ever tutor for anything that doesn't help protect him or do more damage. Zur pretty much wins if he has Vanishing on him and you have 2 blue open to activate it.
I seriously haven't had any issues with anyone's general so far except against Braids, Cabal Minion and its almost useless against her. She is either out before you can drop Declaration of Naught or before you have a blue open to counter her with it. Once I've made it past turn 3 or 4 and she hasn't successfully hit the field yet I'm usually out of range of being locked.
The only general that I have yet to face that I think it may be worth putting back in for is Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary since he'll be hitting the field repeatedly unless I get him into his owner's deck. Speaking of facing Rofellos I'll probably get the chance here in a few weeks if Twikite can get Ouallada to come over for some EDH matches.
Ultimately I just think its not for my deck. I love the card and would definately run it if I weren't playing Zur for 1v1 or if I had a different general.
Ok, first off, I'd like to apologize for bringing my thread back up to the main page, but I'd like to improve the multiplayer version of my Zur deck now and since I already have it listed as the 2nd post of this topic I figured I may as well use it instead of starting a entirely new thread about a deck that I've already listed.
So recently I bought the stuff I was missing to tune my 1v1 version to the point I don't think anyone will ever play against it for fun ever again. So I figured I would try to work on a multiplayer version that doesn't just get hated upon for being Zur. Although that will probably happen anyways (I can dream can't I? :rolleyes:). So to begin with I took out most of the counterspells that I thought were lack luster, and I may still cut Arcane Denial for Last Word or Desertion. I also cut back on some artifact acceleration and a few spot removal were changed or just taken out. I'm not real experienced at multiplayer EDH though so I'm having trouble on deciding what other changes should be made and would appreciate some input from other people.
Well those are some of the cards I'm juggling around as potentials so far. If you know of some broken stuff, or cards that are just hilarious to play together (i.e. Humility + Opalescence) that I don't have listed here please let me know. I want this deck to be somewhat punishing but get some laughs out of it too. In rare occasions even win some multiplayer matches.^_^;:no:
There are really just too many good cards to choose from and I get a headache trying to remember all of them so this deck may change many times over before I'm satisfied with it.:monocle:
Pemmin's Aura must be in... and that will take care of your shroud problem and it turns Zur into one of the most broken blue creatures ever Morphling thats usually an auto include. I also think you have too many creatures. Zur is actually the only creature you need and Zur seems to be a toolbox deck where your situation allows for the most flexibility. I would also re evaluate your enchantment choices. Necropotence, hmmm Ill have to get the list of all the cards he uses to control his draws but usually it goes like this in most games.
Turn 1 Land Ramp
Turn 2 Land Zur
Turn 3 Attack and get Pemmin's Aura, then drop a land pass
Turn 4 Add a draw engine to get more counters and open the tool box
Turn 5 on down the line be really situational. Ive seem him lock the game down with Arcane Laboratory, Forbid with buyback then get the Empyrial Armor and usually win. We usually have Maze of Ith for this but weve just learned to shut down his mana early or put something big in Zurs way early.
Pemmin's Aura must be in... and that will take care of your shroud problem and it turns Zur into one of the most broken blue creatures ever Morphling thats usually an auto include. I also think you have too many creatures. Zur is actually the only creature you need and Zur seems to be a toolbox deck where your situation allows for the most flexibility. I would also re evaluate your enchantment choices. Necropotence, hmmm Ill have to get the list of all the cards he uses to control his draws but usually it goes like this in most games.
Turn 1 Land Ramp
Turn 2 Land Zur
Turn 3 Attack and get Pemmin's Aura, then drop a land pass
Turn 4 Add a draw engine to get more counters and open the tool box
Turn 5 on down the line be really situational. Ive seem him lock the game down with Arcane Laboratory, Forbid with buyback then get the Empyrial Armor and usually win. We usually have Maze of Ith for this but weve just learned to shut down his mana early or put something big in Zurs way early.
I'm assuming all of this is a critique of my multiplayer version? Since the only creature I have in my 1v1 deck is Zur.
Pemmin's Aura isn't in my 1v1 or Multiplayer versions because from what I've read Diplomatic Immunity is better and still allows you to attach enchantments to Zur from his ability since you're not casting the enchantment it doesn't target. At least that's my understanding of it from the comprehensive rules.
Those plays are what I'm going for in multiplayer.
step 1: get Zur out.
step 2: protect Zur.
step 3: get Necropotence.
step 4: find some way to win.
My 1v1 deck goes more like this:
Turn 1:
drop a land and maybe artifact accel
Turn 2:
drop a land and if I'm lucky Zur (provided I have the right artifacts)
Turn 3:
drop a land and Zur usually comes in here
Turn 4:
drop a land and if Zur isn't out by now I wait to play him when I have counter mana
These are usually the steps that follow Zur coming into play:
Step 1: his first attack grab Diplomatic Immunity if I have a counter otherwise grab Vanishing
Step 2: get Vanishing on him if I haven't already or Diplomatic Immunity (once these are both on Zur he's virtually invincible, phasing is OP)
Step 3: get Necropotence or Empyrial Armor depends on how many cards I still have in hand
Step 4: grab the other from step 3
Step 5: By this point if they haven't conceded already you can grab any number of things depending on how fast you want to kill them. For faster kills you can grab Daybreak Coronet or Steel of the Godhead, but if you want to slow them down to a halt you can get Arcane Laboratory or just protect yourself with Solitary Confinement.
That is the way the 1v1 deck will run usually but sometimes stuff happens and I have to use some spot removal on things that are a nuissance, such as Icy Manipulator. Maze of Ith is actually pretty terrible against Zur, since you'll likely only get to stop him once. He still attacked and gets to search up an enchantment likely shrouding him from future Maze of Ith targets.
oops lol I was looking at the wrong one lol... Let me re look at the 1v1 and you have the right idea but Pennmins Aura you give him shroud before they cast something on him. It stops spot removal. Trust me Ive been killed enough times from him getting the aura then pumping him with the armor and using some enchantment to draw. He also uses some enchantment I cant remember the same to basically pay X to look at the top x cards of his deck. Ill see him today and post live from the shop around 6 or 7 pm. Soothsaying Yeah that was the card lol... He put it in to stop me and others from putting Zur to the bottom and tunnel visioning. Also the Scrying is supposed to be really good with necropotence.
Vigilance and Power boost for mana vs zero mana shroud and aura shroud.
I think the benefits of Pemmin's are very small compared to the drawbacks.
Having to hold mana back for Vanish + Pemmin's would be way to mana intensive, especially in multiplayer.
Also, in multiplayer, Necropotence might be more of a liability than an advantage as it gives your opponents a guaranteed kill off of mindslaver (assuming ppl in your group play 'slaver). Multiplayer = more opponents = more 'slavers.
oops lol I was looking at the wrong one lol... Let me re look at the 1v1 and you have the right idea but Pennmins Aura you give him shroud before they cast something on him. It stops spot removal. Trust me Ive been killed enough times from him getting the aura then pumping him with the armor and using some enchantment to draw. He also uses some enchantment I cant remember the same to basically pay X to look at the top x cards of his deck. Ill see him today and post live from the shop around 6 or 7 pm. Soothsaying Yeah that was the card lol... He put it in to stop me and others from putting Zur to the bottom and tunnel visioning. Also the Scrying is supposed to be really good with necropotence.
Soothsaying seems pretty cool. I'll try to get one for my multiplayer build and try it out.
But about Pemmin's Aura, I'm still not sure you read my post about Diplomatic Immunity and how it is better for 1v1. Keeping him shrouded all the time just seems like a better plan. I do like Pemmin's Aura but it requires me to keep mana open for it and I'd rather have my mana open for counters and the occasional spot removal to clear the way for Zur or get rid of any annoying artifacts/enchantments.
Vigilance and Power boost for mana vs zero mana shroud and aura shroud.
I think the benefits of Pemmin's are very small compared to the drawbacks.
Having to hold mana back for Vanish + Pemmin's would be way to mana intensive, especially in multiplayer.
Also, in multiplayer, Necropotence might be more of a liability than an advantage as it gives your opponents a guaranteed kill off of mindslaver (assuming ppl in your group play 'slaver). Multiplayer = more opponents = more 'slavers.
I agree the Pemmin's Aura can be mana intensive, and I don't think I would ever use it in multiplayer. As for Necropotence, I agree it is risky if someone were to mindslaver me. Although I really don't get to test much for multiplayer I'll probably just run Phyrexian Arena in place of it.
Well, it looks like you won't be seeing braids for a while, but I thought I might just go ahead and toss out the idea of maybe including a Sacred Ground
Well, it looks like you won't be seeing braids for a while, but I thought I might just go ahead and toss out the idea of maybe including a Sacred Ground
Thanks for the suggestion.
I have Sacred Ground as well as Karmic Justice, but I haven't included either in my deck-list because neither have been tested in 1v1 match-ups since I haven't played this deck for quite some time. All of the magic players in my group of friends as well as members of my student organization (3C Gamers) that I started a month ago don't want to play against my Zur deck or have yet to get into the format. They also don't have much money to build competitive EDH decks.
If I had more time I might be able to test it against some people at our local shop, or I could try and learn how to use MWS and build the deck on that to test against online opponents, but I have yet to do it.
Between my girlfriend, work, graduate school, my social life, and other hobbies I haven't put in as much time to EDH that I would like to. Lately as I find some time to build and test decks its just to build casual things that people can have some fun playing against at 3C Gamers (most of them are timmy players). For example, the next EDH deck that I plan to make for them to play against will be completely Shards block and will probably use Jenara, Asura of War as my general and will be focused on 1v1 since I hardly ever get to play multiplayer games.
Maybe I'll stop sleeping and then I can get my schoolwork done and have time for everything else
Might be a tad too late, but I was thinking about suggesting Faith's Fetters. I use it any time I would have white and it seems to hold out quite nicely against certain generals like Jhoira of the Ghitu and Mayael the Anima. But then again, I play casual, so who knows?
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Thanks so much to Xenoninja @ Heroes of The Planes for my sweet sig!
Thanks to SGT_Chubbz @ Damnation Studios for the awesome avvy!
Twikite (playing Isamaru) and I were preparing for a local EDH tournament that was strictly 1v1 matches and single elimination so I was looking to improve this deck as much as possible to aim for 1st place which I sadly didn't have the cards for at the time.
So originally I had a deck of silver bullets but then I came across Frylock Dude's Zur decklist for a counter heavy deck and decided to give it a try against Twikite's Isamaru deck. It seems to do just fine and his biggest threats to my deck were Scepter of Dominance tapping Zur down if I hadn't managed to shroud him yet. But as I evolved my version from having as much as 31 counters I realized dealing with other problematic generals such as Braids, Cabal Minion (who's now banned) that I needed more 1cc spot removal and have since slimmed down on the amount of counters but they're still the focus of my deck.
1 Zur the Enchanter
Planeswalker (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creatures (1)
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
Enchantments (10)
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Aura of Silence
1 Daybreak Coronet
1 Diplomatic Immunity
1 Empyrial Armor
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Prison Term
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Steel of the Godhead
1 Vanishing
Tutor/Draw/Organizer (6)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Preordain
1 Scroll Rack
Spot Removal (8)
1 Capsize
1 Devour in Shadow
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Mortify
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
Counters (18)
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Delay
1 Dromar's Charm
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Hinder
1 Mana Drain
1 Mana Leak
1 Memory Lapse
1 Misdirection
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Negate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Power Sink
1 Remand
1 Spell Crumple
1 Spell Pierce
1 Azorius Signet
1 Chrome Mox
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Dimir Signet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Sphere of the Suns
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
Awesome Sauce (7)
1 Armageddon
1 Divine Reckoning
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Sunder
1 Winds of Rath
Lands (38)
1 Maze of Ith
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Wasteland
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
-1 Greater Auramancy
-1 Necropotence
-1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Wipe Away
-1 Condemn
-1 Sudden Death
-1 Cryptic Command
-1 Dissipate
-1 Dream Fracture
-1 Coalition Relic
-1 Mana Crypt
-1 Sol Ring
-1 Orim's Chant
-1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
-1 Stripmine
-1 Forbidden Orchard
-1 Adarkar Wastes
-1 Caves of Coilos
-1 Underground River
-1 Flagstones of Trokair
-2 Island
+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph
+1 Phyrexian Arena
+1 Prison Term
+1 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Preordain
+1 Diabolic Edict
+1 Dismember
+1 Negate
+1 Spell Crumple
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Chrome Mox
+1 Sphere of Suns
+1 Armageddon
+1 Divine Reckoning
+1 Runechanter's Pike
+1 Inkmoth Nexus
+1 Wasteland
+1 Command Tower
+1 Arid Mesa
+1 Misty Rainforest
+1 Scalding Tarn
+1 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Darkslick Shores
+1 Seachrome Coast
1 Zur the Enchanter
Creatures (8)
1 Avatar of Woe
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Desolation Angel
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
1 Magus of the Future
1 Myojin of Cleansing Fire
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Enchantments (15)
1 Animate Dead
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Aura of Silence
1 Future Sight
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Karmic Justice
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Necromancy
1 Propaganda
1 Rhystic Study
1 Righteous Aura
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Treachery
1 Unquestioned Authority
1 Vanishing
Instants (14)
1 Capsize
1 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
1 Desertion
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Hinder
1 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rewind
1 Spelljack
1 Sunder
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Armageddon
1 Austere Command
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Cataclysm
1 Damnation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Replenish
1 Time Spiral
1 Time Stretch
1 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Artifacts (12)
1 Azorius Signet
1 Coalition Relic
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Dimir Signet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mind's Eye
1 Mindslaver
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands (37)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Maze of Ith
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 City of Brass
1 Grand Coliseum
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Foutain
1 Watery Grave
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bant Panorama
1 Esper Panorama
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Fetid Heath
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Underground River
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Tolaria West
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2nd game against braids I got locked QUICK,
We played a 3rd game for fun but again I was sacrificing lands to Braids, Cabal Minion early on but not before my opponent played a 3cc LD spell (either Rain of Tears or Rancid Earth i don't remember) on one of my multicolored lands.:-/ Somehow I managed to recover somewhat later but we had to quit before we could finish since the cardshop was closing. Funny enough though he had Mox Diamond and swamp on turn 1 and I thought he was about to play Dark Ritual into Braids, Cabal Minon at which point I was going to overturn the table onto his face. As entertaining as that would have been he did not.
So after my experience of playing against Braids, Cabal Minion I have to wonder if its just the worst matchup for Zur, the Enchanter or if there are some improvements I could make to handle such a matchup without crippling the overpowered amount of control that the deck has against other players?
I've tried to run as many counters that are below 4cc as possible. I prefer to get the effect of a hard counter or at least have a cheap counter forcing them to pay more which they usually can't early to mid game. The few 4cc that are left I may end up cutting for more spot removal i.e. (Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Diabolic Edict, & Æther Spellbomb" target="blank">Æther Spellbomb) and maybe I'll just add some 1cc counters for tempo control early game like Force Spike.
I've cut down the counterspells to just 20 which seems fine so far and added more 1cc removal like you suggested, but I haven't tested it against Braids yet. I mainly have been playtesting against Twikite's deck. I cut several of the CipT lands so I can curve into early game control better. Islands work just fine since the majority of my spells are blue.
I'm thinking about taking out Hall of the Bandit Lord because its another CipT land and most of the time I would rather have mana open for counters and removal than worrying about getting Zur out with haste. Lightning Greaves work so much better for giving Zur haste and they save me from needing to grab Diplomatic Immunity making my first swing with Zur more relevant in damage or control.
Just testing my signature.
And another counterspell I would consider putting in if I had it was Foil.
GoGo Anime Nerds 4 Life!
Cards that all begin with the letter A to maybe consider (I'm not versed in Zur, so some of these may already be deemed unplayable or weak by the Zur Advocates Community). Just brainstorming a little.
Ancestral Knowledge
Seems like maybe if you need to dig and find that key piece or removal or something, you might use your first Zur swing to grab this and then dig ten cards down... ?
Angelic Renewal
This would be wrath effect protection for Zur...
Arcane Laboratory
Can you support nullstone gargoyle or erayo? Too bad you can't search Erayo's Essence, no?
Armadillo Cloak
I'm guessing daybreak coronet is just plan better, so this would be redundant?
Artificer's Intuition
Zur seems like a nasty way to get this online, but perhaps this pulls the deck away from its enchantment focus?
Thanks for the tournament report... fun to see how others navigated the field. I'm happy I didn't have to face Braids.
Check out the blog too.
Wow! Just wow! How did I miss this card. This is an auto include as soon as I get my hands on one. Thank you for the suggestion!
True this would be but usually I don't have time to grab cards that are narrow situational protection for Zur. Counterspells will handle most of that stuff and Vanishing handles the rest which is just broken because its reusable and when he phases out the enchantments and equipment attached to Zur stay on him. So this enchantment is certainly usable but if he dies he gets un-equipped and any enchantments on him go to the graveyard so its maybe an include for a multiplayer version where you mainly use him for silver bullets that help you control the game.
I have Rule of Law white version of Arcane Laboratory and again its just one of those cards that is probably more for multiplayer, but I think Erayo's Essence and Arcane Laboratory could have a place in my 1v1 version even though I cannot tutor Erayo with Zur I do have other tutors in the deck that are capable.
Actually the cloak would just be AMAZING in a Zur deck but since EDH makes you play with your General's colors only I sadly cannot use it since it has green in the casting cost. Which is a shame cause you know I'd love to run it and Rancor.
I just don't know about Artificer's Intuition. It really does seem to pull away from the theme of the deck. Not sure what I would use it for that would be worth including it.
I haven't posted my results from our tournament yet. Here are the highlights:
Swiss
Round 1 I was first paired off against the dreaded Braids deck and I was just as unhappy about it as my friend piloting it was. However, all of my preparations from our last encounter during the EDH league night where I was locked two games in a row were well worth the effort. I won game 1 with a Capsize lock (its probably the most cruel and agonizing way to lose). Game 2 I can't remember if he turn 2 locked me or what. So game 2 or 3, all I remember was we went to time and I was basically a turn away from winning and he conceded.
Round 2 during swiss my opponent had played against me before during EDH league and didn't want to even bother so he conceded the moment we were announced as a pairing.
Round 3 I won in 3 against a Vorosh, the Hunter deck that was just running all kinds of broken spells. He hardly ever relied on his general.
Round 4 was against my buddy Twikite running Isamaru which he's been saying his chance to win against my deck is like 5% well he beat me in 2 due to my taking dumb risks and keeping hands that could have been bomb by drawing only 1 land and in both games I did not. Which just seemed entirely improbable especially since game 2 I had a blue source land along with Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top in my opening hand. I just couldn't see how I was gonna get land screwed for 6 turns. Oh well he needed the victory (for his morale and all that :)).
Top 8 I tied for 5th with Twikite and a couple others but I feel like I could have placed 1st/2nd easily had it not been for my unlucky pairing against the only deck running Boseiju, Who Shelters All which I defeated during the swiss (the Vorosh deck) and I had a quick victory for the first game during top 8 but he got Boseiju on both games 2 & 3 and ended my chance at 1st. Made me wish I was running more Land Destruction (Next time you should let me borrow your Sinkhole instead of lending it to the Braids deck).
First off, how is 38 lands working for you? With Zur being three colors, I haven't tested anything below 40 due to fear of land screw.
Second, Oblation seems like it would almost always(90%+) be used on the opposing general. Hero's Demise seems like it would be a better replacement.
Third, if you feel that the Boseiju situation may happen again, Wasteland may be a decent answer(although, if you don't own one already, I could see it going in the "too expensive" list).
Overall though, yours looks far more tuned than mine. Also, the swiss round 2 you had are the moments I live for.:p
Lol. Smart-A$$! Okay, so this was my "duh" moment. Since I introduced you to Ancestrall Knowledge, let's call it a wash and say we're even. lol.
D'oh, looks like I was reading your Denny's report or something... the one with all the emoticons... I took that to be your report. I thought you won, though, so that explains that.
Good stuff. I'll probably go through the Zur enchantment pool again sometime, and I'll let you know what else I find. This time I'll be sure I'm on the right three colors. Lol.
Check out the blog too.
So far 38 lands has been working out just fine as long as I get a couple of blue mana sources, and thats almost always the case.
That's a nice card for me to consider but I like Oblation more simply for the fact that its instant speed shuffle your opponent's general into their library. Against a Braids deck I have killed braids turn 2 or 3 only to see her right back on the field the next turn because he is running mana exceleration as well so it doesn't always help just killing a general. If they don't have a tutor right away it could be several turns before they see their general again or not at all. Ofcourse I don't like making them draw 2 cards so there is always the option of Spin into Myth but I hate spending 5 mana on that and by the time I can cast it, it may be too late. The only downside to both of my prefered cards is that they aren't extremely useful other than general hate and that especially sucks when your opponent doesn't really rely on their general. A couple other good kill creature cards that are a little more well rounded than Hero's Demise are Unmake, Rend Flesh, and Eyeblight's Ending. Ofcourse the downside to these is they all cost 3 instead of 2. It's hard to say what is best since EDH is so situational.
Well one major problem against that particular opponent was that he ran Life from the Loam and continued to get back his important lands. Wasteland is something I would love to get for any of my EDH decks but I still haven't shelled out the dough for it. However I do already have Stripmine and can tutor for it with Tolaria West or any of my black tutors. Crucible of Worlds is something I would love to try in the deck once I get some fetch lands and wasteland. Heck I may even put back in a few cycling lands for repeatable card draw.
I'm still tuning it as I get each paycheck. Today I bought Ancestral Knowledge, Force of Will, and Mana Vault for it. I think the next cards I want for the deck are fetch lands and then maybe an original dual land or two. Yea it was good timing that my opponent simply conceded in round 2 I needed to call back my grandparents who's call I ignored during round 1.
I feel like my Zur deck handles 90-95% of the EDH decks out there really well. The issue with pushing it over to 99% is speed. The more dual lands and fetch lands you can run along with artifact mana excel like Mox Diamond (which I still need to get) will make it so much better at controlling the early game and assuring victory. I would always get annoyed with my early build having too many lands coming into play tapped.
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Standard Competitive MemberThanks to Spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios for the sig.
Well oddly enough it wasn't in my deck list for the silver bullets version (it is in the list for silver bullets now) and I do have one in my pile of options for a Zur deck. I have used it before and I'll be honest I don't know how I left that off the list.
However, for the "Objection" version of the deck, I think that I've made the right choice by cutting it. I agree, it's bonkers against an opponent's general. However, if I have counters in hand I would rather have mana open early game so that I can stop any relevant spells instead of tapping out to put that thing down. And more importantly if I have Zur out I hardly ever tutor for anything that doesn't help protect him or do more damage. Zur pretty much wins if he has Vanishing on him and you have 2 blue open to activate it.
I seriously haven't had any issues with anyone's general so far except against Braids, Cabal Minion and its almost useless against her. She is either out before you can drop Declaration of Naught or before you have a blue open to counter her with it. Once I've made it past turn 3 or 4 and she hasn't successfully hit the field yet I'm usually out of range of being locked.
The only general that I have yet to face that I think it may be worth putting back in for is Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary since he'll be hitting the field repeatedly unless I get him into his owner's deck. Speaking of facing Rofellos I'll probably get the chance here in a few weeks if Twikite can get Ouallada to come over for some EDH matches.
Ultimately I just think its not for my deck. I love the card and would definately run it if I weren't playing Zur for 1v1 or if I had a different general.
So recently I bought the stuff I was missing to tune my 1v1 version to the point I don't think anyone will ever play against it for fun ever again. So I figured I would try to work on a multiplayer version that doesn't just get hated upon for being Zur. Although that will probably happen anyways (I can dream can't I? :rolleyes:). So to begin with I took out most of the counterspells that I thought were lack luster, and I may still cut Arcane Denial for Last Word or Desertion. I also cut back on some artifact acceleration and a few spot removal were changed or just taken out. I'm not real experienced at multiplayer EDH though so I'm having trouble on deciding what other changes should be made and would appreciate some input from other people.
Some cards I'm still considering as includes:
Kederekt Leviathan
Angel of Despair
Vesuvan Shapeshifter
Myojin of Cleansing Fire
Azorius Guildmage
Last Word
Head Games
Idyllic Tutor
Energy Field
Equipoise
Copy Artifact
Sculpting Steel
Take Possession
Duplicant
Kismet
Nether Void
Copy Enchantment
Humility
Opalescence
There are really just too many good cards to choose from and I get a headache trying to remember all of them so this deck may change many times over before I'm satisfied with it.:monocle:
Turn 1 Land Ramp
Turn 2 Land Zur
Turn 3 Attack and get Pemmin's Aura, then drop a land pass
Turn 4 Add a draw engine to get more counters and open the tool box
Turn 5 on down the line be really situational. Ive seem him lock the game down with Arcane Laboratory, Forbid with buyback then get the Empyrial Armor and usually win. We usually have Maze of Ith for this but weve just learned to shut down his mana early or put something big in Zurs way early.
I'm assuming all of this is a critique of my multiplayer version? Since the only creature I have in my 1v1 deck is Zur.
As for my multiplayer deck, I agree it really needs to be about the tool box so I can understand cutting some creatures (took out Ertai, Wizard Adept & Sower of Temptation for Necropotence & Diplomatic Immunity don't know why I cut those in the first place).
Pemmin's Aura isn't in my 1v1 or Multiplayer versions because from what I've read Diplomatic Immunity is better and still allows you to attach enchantments to Zur from his ability since you're not casting the enchantment it doesn't target. At least that's my understanding of it from the comprehensive rules.
It was also discussed here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=181961&highlight=diplomatic+immunity
Those plays are what I'm going for in multiplayer.
step 1: get Zur out.
step 2: protect Zur.
step 3: get Necropotence.
step 4: find some way to win.
My 1v1 deck goes more like this:
Turn 1:
drop a land and maybe artifact accel
Turn 2:
drop a land and if I'm lucky Zur (provided I have the right artifacts)
Turn 3:
drop a land and Zur usually comes in here
Turn 4:
drop a land and if Zur isn't out by now I wait to play him when I have counter mana
These are usually the steps that follow Zur coming into play:
Step 1: his first attack grab Diplomatic Immunity if I have a counter otherwise grab Vanishing
Step 2: get Vanishing on him if I haven't already or Diplomatic Immunity (once these are both on Zur he's virtually invincible, phasing is OP)
Step 3: get Necropotence or Empyrial Armor depends on how many cards I still have in hand
Step 4: grab the other from step 3
Step 5: By this point if they haven't conceded already you can grab any number of things depending on how fast you want to kill them. For faster kills you can grab Daybreak Coronet or Steel of the Godhead, but if you want to slow them down to a halt you can get Arcane Laboratory or just protect yourself with Solitary Confinement.
That is the way the 1v1 deck will run usually but sometimes stuff happens and I have to use some spot removal on things that are a nuissance, such as Icy Manipulator. Maze of Ith is actually pretty terrible against Zur, since you'll likely only get to stop him once. He still attacked and gets to search up an enchantment likely shrouding him from future Maze of Ith targets.
Vigilance and Power boost for mana vs zero mana shroud and aura shroud.
I think the benefits of Pemmin's are very small compared to the drawbacks.
Having to hold mana back for Vanish + Pemmin's would be way to mana intensive, especially in multiplayer.
Also, in multiplayer, Necropotence might be more of a liability than an advantage as it gives your opponents a guaranteed kill off of mindslaver (assuming ppl in your group play 'slaver). Multiplayer = more opponents = more 'slavers.
Soothsaying seems pretty cool. I'll try to get one for my multiplayer build and try it out.
But about Pemmin's Aura, I'm still not sure you read my post about Diplomatic Immunity and how it is better for 1v1. Keeping him shrouded all the time just seems like a better plan. I do like Pemmin's Aura but it requires me to keep mana open for it and I'd rather have my mana open for counters and the occasional spot removal to clear the way for Zur or get rid of any annoying artifacts/enchantments.
However, I may throw Pemmin's Aura in just as a back-up plan incase I somehow lose Diplomatic Immunity.
I agree the Pemmin's Aura can be mana intensive, and I don't think I would ever use it in multiplayer. As for Necropotence, I agree it is risky if someone were to mindslaver me. Although I really don't get to test much for multiplayer I'll probably just run Phyrexian Arena in place of it.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
Thanks for the suggestion.
I have Sacred Ground as well as Karmic Justice, but I haven't included either in my deck-list because neither have been tested in 1v1 match-ups since I haven't played this deck for quite some time. All of the magic players in my group of friends as well as members of my student organization (3C Gamers) that I started a month ago don't want to play against my Zur deck or have yet to get into the format. They also don't have much money to build competitive EDH decks.
If I had more time I might be able to test it against some people at our local shop, or I could try and learn how to use MWS and build the deck on that to test against online opponents, but I have yet to do it.
Between my girlfriend, work, graduate school, my social life, and other hobbies I haven't put in as much time to EDH that I would like to. Lately as I find some time to build and test decks its just to build casual things that people can have some fun playing against at 3C Gamers (most of them are timmy players). For example, the next EDH deck that I plan to make for them to play against will be completely Shards block and will probably use Jenara, Asura of War as my general and will be focused on 1v1 since I hardly ever get to play multiplayer games.
Maybe I'll stop sleeping and then I can get my schoolwork done and have time for everything else
Thanks to SGT_Chubbz @ Damnation Studios for the awesome avvy!
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