There you go with that bad rhetoric again.
Hypothetical, probable but statistically unfriendly hands are a really bad way to argue your point.
Do you draw this same hand, every single game, every time, and are always on the play, like, all day er'day?
If so, do you also cast two explores?
This is just a hand with mana vault. I Jhoria come out turn two all the time not every time but often. Unless you have something constructive to say do me a favor and don't. I have tried really hard to be civil and courteous to you and i like what you have to say alot often times please not berate me for sighting an example. I was told that Jhoria was no good antill turn 6 i offered evidence to the contrary. I was not argueing a point I was stating a fact.
And you don't have to suspend at sorcery speed it give you options thats all I was saying please get the **** off my nuts
This is just a hand with mana vault. I Jhoria come out turn two all the time not every time but often. Unless you have something constructive to say do me a favor and don't. I have tried really hard to be civil and courteous to you and i like what you have to say alot often times please not berate me for sighting an example. I was told that Jhoria was no good antill turn 6 i offered evidence to the contrary. I was not argueing a point I was stating a fact.
And you don't have to suspend at sorcery speed it give you options thats all I was saying please get the **** off my nuts
Your "evidence to the contrary" also relies more on great mana rocks than Jhoira herself. You're refusing to accept any opinion save for your own. Which would be fine, if it had some grounding in proper observation.
"Jhoira is a problematic general that can make games really unfun, and opponents cry".
What else do you want the community to say? Because apparently, the above sentence is all you're seeking. So here you go.
Jhoira sucks to play against on occasion, because mana rocks, proper removal, and all other efforts to render her worthless don't exist. The Jhoira player is capable of generating so much advantage that there's no possible way for the rest of the table to recover, despite the format having an almost unlimited card pool chocked full of potential solutions.She's a big, bad *****, and never before has a worse general been played. Or worse strategy.
Now, if you'll take a moment and actually read what people are writing, saying, and providing as a counterpoint, you'll see that Jhoira-while EXTREMELY problematic (maybe, potentially)-is hardly ban-worthy, or in the realm of being ban worthy. She's hard to deal with. But the format is full of hard to deal with cards just like her.
What do you purpose? We ban all the "difficult" cards?
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Actual Truth:
"You heard it here folks:
Anyone who disagrees with "Jack from NC" is an idiot."-The Dead Weatherman
Is the ground cold, or is fattyluvboat right for once?
Seriously, are we so desperate for poll targets that Jhoira is on the table?
EDIT: To further this discussion, I've lost only one game aganst Jhoira. Because Pithing Needle and removal are a thing.
I find against a well made Jhoira deck removal is pretty much irrelivant if it doesn't have split second. Also, are you running pitching needle for any reason other than to hose very specific generals? Because I can't see naming anything other than greaves or maybe O-stone with it. (Although O-stone has fallen out of favor in my meta. It takes to long and when everyone has 10+ cards in hand It just doesn't make it around to do its job.)
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Turn 1: Island mana vault
Turn 2: Mountain, Jhoria suspend something
Turn 3: land with say fury charm and another something to suspend.
First of all, the real "insta-win" of Jhoira is Obliterate + some Eldrazi. Sure, suspending a mass wipe and, say Tidespout Tyrant is backbreaking, but it is much, much easier to get out of. With Eldrazi, you need a 1-mana answer that needs to be able to get around indestructibility (so StP, PtE, or the most windmill-slammable Tragic Slip ever). The other fatties Jhoira can suspend are either much slower clocks or are vulnerable to removal. Does this make the strategy more fun? No, but it does make it less OP.
My point being, Jhoira + Obliterate effect + Unanswerable Threat is already a god-hand. Sure, there's redundancy on both fronts, but not a lot (especially when it comes to unanswerable threats). And a good Jhoira build has to be built with turn 1-3 plays, time magic, and contingency plans, so it's not a guarantee she will even be able to suspend something game-ending at all. I can't count the number of times I've sat with Jokulhaups and Remand in hand praying to God to transfigure that counterspell into Emrakul (ah, the good 'ol days).
If you want to add any number of turn-1 accelerants and some time tomfoolery into that hand... besides the fact that Mana Vault alone of all cards in Magic give enough mana to play Jhoira and suspend on freaking turn 2.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, in Magical Christmas Land, I have a date to the prom.
The problem isn't Jhoira being overpowered. That's not a good argument. Any number of Tiered generals are just as good or better. And her clock is long enough to be stoppable, by far.
The best argument for banning her is that she's uninteractive (which I personally disagree with, because you can interact with her) or encourages a singular, unfun strategy. Now, I could say that fun is subjective, but if the RC sees a vast majority of players who hate Jhoira so much that they kill her immediately, or outright start hating on players that use her, then maybe she should get the ban.
But you know what? I'll put the time magic in Riku. I'll go get an Academy Rector and put Omniscience and all those land destruction spells (plus Sunder and Armageddon) into some American-flavored deck fueled by hate and rage and childishness and spite. And it will be just as unfun. The problem isn't Jhoira, and it's barely what she enables.
I'll admit it, the problem is me. And you can't ban me from Magic. You can sit down and talk to me as a rational human being and say you hate my deck. You can encourage me to play something else, and I will, because I have eleven other things sleeved up. I know you can't do that to randoms on 'trice that will make sure you have a terrible time, but not every one of those guys is playing Jhoira, not even a majority. Social isn't the same as casual, and so when it comes to banning Tier, be social about it, don't be casual.
I find against a well made Jhoira deck removal is pretty much irrelivant if it doesn't have split second. Also, are you running pitching needle for any reason other than to hose very specific generals? Because I can't see naming anything other than greaves or maybe O-stone with it. (Although O-stone has fallen out of favor in my meta. It takes to long and when everyone has 10+ cards in hand It just doesn't make it around to do its job.)
Being able to stop most generals with activated abilities, all problematic lands/cards seems a wonderful reason to run Needle. It's a one mana problem solver. What's not to love?
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I find against a well made Jhoira deck removal is pretty much irrelivant if it doesn't have split second. Also, are you running pitching needle for any reason other than to hose very specific generals? Because I can't see naming anything other than greaves or maybe O-stone with it. (Although O-stone has fallen out of favor in my meta. It takes to long and when everyone has 10+ cards in hand It just doesn't make it around to do its job.)
just to be clear, Jhoira doesn't have to care about split second either if she uses her ability right away.
I purpose the next topic be on banning me, because my pointless jokes, body odor, and competitive deck construction ruin magic for everyone. The podcast I help with also makes people deaf. Clearly, I am the card ruining magic for everyone.
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Actual Truth:
"You heard it here folks:
Anyone who disagrees with "Jack from NC" is an idiot."-The Dead Weatherman
Being able to stop most generals with activated abilities, all problematic lands/cards seems a wonderful reason to run Needle. It's a one mana problem solver. What's not to love?
It's reactionary to a problem that often happens before you get the chance to know what needs to be dealt with. Maybe if your playgroup has a Jhoira, Arcam, and like the one serious problem generals. Not to mention that if crush deals with your removal there's a good chance you'll just get caught off guard.
I like to compare it to a very narrow O-Ring. That just doesn't inspire enough confidence to buy itself a spot in my deck. Especially because in my metagame it only does something noteworthy against 1 general.
These polls are getting a bit silly. Jhoira is not close to top tier in terms of power level. There are quite a few other generals that would need to be banned first, if one were to accept the premise that ANY current generals need to be banned (which I do not). Jhoira is incredibly soft to Pithing Needle, and even if she pulls off suspend Obliterate, suspend Ulamog, a follow-up of Plains, Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile/Chain of Vapor/etc.... neatly solves the problem - and you have 4 Turns to set this up!!!
I wish people would stop complaining and just run answers. The foramt is fun BECAUSE it's broken - deal with it!
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- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
The idea to ban jhoira is really up here? Lol are we just rocking polls now as a force of habit? Well as with every card that hits the proverbial poll dance i have to ask myself.... is it fair to ban this card? Would we be punishing people for the wrongs of the few who think they are clever and break the format? I would put arcum or azami up here before jhoira. I've been slowly brewing an izzet inspired deck around her suspending huge draw burn and time spells... i think the answer for me is simple.... the list of banable generals has a large bar to surpass before it can be considered for banning when certain legendaries have free reign.
just run answers stupid is the response to EVERY.SINGLE.CARD. ON. THE. BAN. LIST.
clearly the problem is that everyone should just run countermagic as an EDH deck right? that would take care of ALL of the banlist problems right?:rolleyes:
God, you all act this poll is some of binding thing, when it isn't. It's a way go hey this card is doing this blah blah,let's dicuss it in the context of the ban list. and if anyone has honestly paid attention to why Jhoira was brought up instread of ZOMG now we're jumping the shark cuz it isn't an issue for the majority of the big mouths on MTGS sicne they are the center of the MAgic playing universe.:rolleyes: They would see that it was brought up to due to shelden's comment about him having had his eye on it for a while.
EDIT: and everyone wonders why there isn't a watch list.:rolleyes:
I wouldn't say that Jhoira is overpowered, but it's a card that you must absolutely kill every time it hits the board immediately without question, or you'll lose (barring the appearance of Teferi or something similiar), and as a general, it can keep coming back...and coming back...so I'm not really sure where I stand but I think it *may* be banworthy as a general, but it probably isn't. It's just an annoying card that will get you killed first every single game in my meta until you stop playing it.
That's why the ban list should be significantly smaller.
you missed the point,with the "run more answers noob" means we dodn't even need a ban list,we jsut need all decks to run blue counter magic. Name one card on the banlist that you can't run some answer to...
As someone who plays against a competitively-tuned Jhoira deck every week with some of the jankiest generals in the game, I don't feel that Jhoira warrants a ban.
She can have some powerful starts on occasion, but she isn't game-breaking in the slightest.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I already adressed this point in the part of my posting you decided to cut off.
you missed the point.."Run more answers" is an't always the answer.. and if it were we wouldn't need a ban list at all...
In the case of Jhoira it's always going to be watched and brought up for dicussion anytime a card like Jokulhaups or Obliterate or some mega fattie is printed simply because of it's ablity. so everyone should just get used to that fact. but i'm now inspried to make a new thread.
Jhoira as a card, is not horribly strong, but is instead one of the strongest generals for a strategy that appears to be unpopular (ala, derdling/playing solitaire/what ever you want to call it).
The problem is that most people, either for or against it, are coming up with really dumb responses to how Jhoira is/isn't broken. Whether its Sun's response of any deck beats Jhoira, or these God-hands people keep mentioning, these don't really show Jhoira as a consistent threat.
That being said, I kind of want her banned just because of how uninteractive she is. Even combo can usually be interacted with in some way or shape, but apart from Riftsweeper, no card really interacts with suspend.
This brings us to a point I wanted to try and ask (which was originally brought up in an article on mtgs about banning or not banning sol ring): Is the argument of The power/effect of muiltiplayer allows broken cards to be fine really an agrument/philosophy that most people support? I feel as though people think Jhoira is fine, because all the people at the table will look at her first. I personally feel that is a very slippery slope that could likely be said about every card on the ban list.
What's next? Ban Necropotence? Ban Cabal Coffer? Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? People need to relax.
Why do we bother investing and playing into a game that is just going to suspend everything. Stop banning things now before EDH or Commander becomes just another format like Modern or Legacy. Let it stay the true casual format. Wanna know the best answer to people playing degenerate decks? Do not invite them to play again, or tell them to play something else. If not then the invitation doe snot always need to be sent to the player playing the degenerate deck.
People need to stop QQing, it really is sad.
EDIT: I am also VERY happy to see that the number of NO'S is DOUBLE all the other answers put together. Rightfully so.
Banning Jhoira is pointless. She's only as broken as the pilot driving her wants her to be. The problem isn't the card, there are literally hundreds like that. The problem is the pilot. Bans in general are pointless, and should be decided on a playgroup by playgroup basis, using guidelines that could recommend cards to avoid due to their high powerlevels or tendency to stagnate play. But banning Jhoira because she blows things up? No.
Jhoira as a card, is not horribly strong, but is instead one of the strongest generals for a strategy that appears to be unpopular (ala, derdling/playing solitaire/what ever you want to call it).
The problem is that most people, either for or against it, are coming up with really dumb responses to how Jhoira is/isn't broken. Whether its Sun's response of any deck beats Jhoira, or these God-hands people keep mentioning, these don't really show Jhoira as a consistent threat.
That being said, I kind of want her banned just because of how uninteractive she is. Even combo can usually be interacted with in some way or shape, but apart from Riftsweeper, no card really interacts with suspend.
This brings us to a point I wanted to try and ask (which was originally brought up in an article on mtgs about banning or not banning sol ring): Is the argument of The power/effect of muiltiplayer allows broken cards to be fine really an agrument/philosophy that most people support? I feel as though people think Jhoira is fine, because all the people at the table will look at her first. I personally feel that is a very slippery slope that could likely be said about every card on the ban list.
I just want some opinions.
Very well stated. Personally I'm more in favor of banning her as a general.
Most of the time the only appropriate answer to a Jhoira player is for every player to smash in and kill her over the next 3 turns. While a lot of people might say she's fine because if everyone focuses that player down they lose before they make an impact. I tend to disagree, because if the only appropriate response to a general is to form a coalition in the interest of killing that player, the general has warped the game out of control before it even gets cast.
One could argue that she dies to removal, phrased as such to show how I feel about the argument, but she only needs to get around the circle once before the only reasonable solution becomes to team up against the Jhoira player.
I am a bit conflicted however, because Jhoira has potential for fair use. If it wasn't for her stupid interaction with Obliterate effects I really would never complain about her because she'd just be an amusing timmy general. I personally own a Jhoira deck on magic online that runs no such effects and enjoy playing it without ruining anyone's fun.
In summary, while not totally without reservation, I'm in favor of banning Jhoira as a general. If she ever gets banned from the other 99 something is horribly wrong.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
What's next? Ban Necropotence? Ban Cabal Coffer? Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? People need to relax.
Why do we bother investing and playing into a game that is just going to suspend everything. Stop banning things now before EDH or Commander becomes just another format like Modern or Legacy. Let it stay the true casual format. Wanna know the best answer to people playing degenerate decks? Do not invite them to play again, or tell them to play something else. If not then the invitation doe snot always need to be sent to the player playing the degenerate deck.
People need to stop QQing, it really is sad.
EDIT: I am also VERY happy to see that the number of NO'S is DOUBLE all the other answers put together. Rightfully so.
It's the amount of Yes that scares the hell out of me. It's just the nature of the player base. They have been conditioned that stuff will constantly be banned. Whenever you ban something, something just replaces it (unless you wipe out the whole strategy). As far as I'm concerned, banning jhoria kills a design aspect to this game. She is literally the poster child of suspend, ban her, and suspend becomes a gimmicky mechanic. That constricts design.
Very well stated. Personally I'm more in favor of banning her as a general.
Most of the time the only appropriate answer to a Jhoira player is for every player to smash in and kill her over the next 3 turns. While a lot of people might say she's fine because if everyone focuses that player down they lose before they make an impact. I tend to disagree, because if the only appropriate response to a general is to form a coalition in the interest of killing that player, the general has warped the game out of control before it even gets cast.
One could argue that she dies to removal, phrased as such to show how I feel about the argument, but she only needs to get around the circle once before the only reasonable solution becomes to team up against the Jhoira player.
I am a bit conflicted however, because Jhoira has potential for fair use. If it wasn't for her stupid interaction with Obliterate effects I really would never complain about her because she'd just be an amusing timmy general. I personally own a Jhoira deck on magic online that runs no such effects and enjoy playing it without ruining anyone's fun.
In summary, while not totally without reservation, I'm in favor of banning Jhoira as a general. If she ever gets banned from the other 99 something is horribly wrong.
The thing is generals like azami and the mimeoplasm do this as well. There are a ton of generals that literally muddy the waters before the game even starts, they just earned that reputation. The difference between jhoria and banned generals like rofellos and erayo is that you're trying to kill them super fast just to have a game. With jhoria, you're trying to kill her super fast because you don't want her to blow your lands up.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
It's the amount of Yes that scares the hell out of me. It's just the nature of the player base. They have been conditioned that stuff will constantly be banned. Whenever you ban something, something just replaces it (unless you wipe out the whole strategy).
Don't you think it's a bit pretentious to say that the only reason someone would have a opinion different from yours is because they've been conditioned to. I cannot wrap my head around the concept of believing that someone of a differing opinion is not only objectively wrong, but also that it can't simply be how a large portion of the population sees the issue.
A large amount of yes shouldn't scare the hell out of you. It should simply show that this is an issue that the community disagrees on. It doesn't scare me that about half the country doesn't share my political ideologies. It's human nature to disagree.
As far as I'm concerned, banning jhoria kills a design aspect to this game. She is literally the poster child of suspend, ban her, and suspend becomes a gimmicky mechanic. That constricts design.
Looking at a card and saying it shouldn't be touched because of a unique quality distracts from the issue at hand. If a card is offensive enough to be dealt with, then protecting it for almost any reason goes against the point of a banlist. A banlist is for cards that are for one reason or another offensive enough to get on it. If something is bad enough to be on a banlist but it isn't then why have a banlist in the first place.
The thing is generals like azami and the mimeoplasm do this as well. There are a ton of generals that literally muddy the waters before the game even starts, they just earned that reputation. The difference between jhoria and banned generals like rofellos and erayo is that you're trying to kill them super fast just to have a game. With jhoria, you're trying to kill her super fast because you don't want her to blow your lands up.
I'll have to concede that you're right on this account. She's not alone and she very possibly isn't the worst offender. But I have to wonder if it's healthy for the format having commanders that turn a game into archenemy before it's started.
Jhoira is, however a bit different from the other two in that removal generally solves the problem outright, whereas if Jhoira isn't caught fast it warps the game entirely to being about her. I'd honestly rather be oneshot by the occasional mimeoplasm than have to play archenemy commander.
I've never seen Jhoira be problematic, and it would be quite a blow to all the established decks around her if she were suddenly banned. She's hardly format warping if everyone on the table has to kill that player first; all you're doing is subtly telling that person to stop running such a silly general. Point is, you're dealing with it just fine.
My favorite part about this thread is the other people complaining yet no one bats an eye to them when they say this thread is ridiculous. Yet when I say something it's OMG DIE TROLL GET BANNED RAR
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Realize you are your own source of all creation BOf your own master planB
My favorite part about this thread is the other people complaining yet no one bats an eye to them when they say this thread is ridiculous. Yet when I say something it's OMG DIE TROLL GET BANNED RAR
Math is hard. Lets use opinions instead.
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This is just a hand with mana vault. I Jhoria come out turn two all the time not every time but often. Unless you have something constructive to say do me a favor and don't. I have tried really hard to be civil and courteous to you and i like what you have to say alot often times please not berate me for sighting an example. I was told that Jhoria was no good antill turn 6 i offered evidence to the contrary. I was not argueing a point I was stating a fact.
And you don't have to suspend at sorcery speed it give you options thats all I was saying please get the **** off my nuts
Your "evidence to the contrary" also relies more on great mana rocks than Jhoira herself. You're refusing to accept any opinion save for your own. Which would be fine, if it had some grounding in proper observation.
"Jhoira is a problematic general that can make games really unfun, and opponents cry".
What else do you want the community to say? Because apparently, the above sentence is all you're seeking. So here you go.
Jhoira sucks to play against on occasion, because mana rocks, proper removal, and all other efforts to render her worthless don't exist. The Jhoira player is capable of generating so much advantage that there's no possible way for the rest of the table to recover, despite the format having an almost unlimited card pool chocked full of potential solutions. She's a big, bad *****, and never before has a worse general been played. Or worse strategy.
Now, if you'll take a moment and actually read what people are writing, saying, and providing as a counterpoint, you'll see that Jhoira-while EXTREMELY problematic (maybe, potentially)-is hardly ban-worthy, or in the realm of being ban worthy. She's hard to deal with. But the format is full of hard to deal with cards just like her.
What do you purpose? We ban all the "difficult" cards?
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I find against a well made Jhoira deck removal is pretty much irrelivant if it doesn't have split second. Also, are you running pitching needle for any reason other than to hose very specific generals? Because I can't see naming anything other than greaves or maybe O-stone with it. (Although O-stone has fallen out of favor in my meta. It takes to long and when everyone has 10+ cards in hand It just doesn't make it around to do its job.)
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
First of all, the real "insta-win" of Jhoira is Obliterate + some Eldrazi. Sure, suspending a mass wipe and, say Tidespout Tyrant is backbreaking, but it is much, much easier to get out of. With Eldrazi, you need a 1-mana answer that needs to be able to get around indestructibility (so StP, PtE, or the most windmill-slammable Tragic Slip ever). The other fatties Jhoira can suspend are either much slower clocks or are vulnerable to removal. Does this make the strategy more fun? No, but it does make it less OP.
My point being, Jhoira + Obliterate effect + Unanswerable Threat is already a god-hand. Sure, there's redundancy on both fronts, but not a lot (especially when it comes to unanswerable threats). And a good Jhoira build has to be built with turn 1-3 plays, time magic, and contingency plans, so it's not a guarantee she will even be able to suspend something game-ending at all. I can't count the number of times I've sat with Jokulhaups and Remand in hand praying to God to transfigure that counterspell into Emrakul (ah, the good 'ol days).
If you want to add any number of turn-1 accelerants and some time tomfoolery into that hand... besides the fact that Mana Vault alone of all cards in Magic give enough mana to play Jhoira and suspend on freaking turn 2.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, in Magical Christmas Land, I have a date to the prom.
The problem isn't Jhoira being overpowered. That's not a good argument. Any number of Tiered generals are just as good or better. And her clock is long enough to be stoppable, by far.
The best argument for banning her is that she's uninteractive (which I personally disagree with, because you can interact with her) or encourages a singular, unfun strategy. Now, I could say that fun is subjective, but if the RC sees a vast majority of players who hate Jhoira so much that they kill her immediately, or outright start hating on players that use her, then maybe she should get the ban.
But you know what? I'll put the time magic in Riku. I'll go get an Academy Rector and put Omniscience and all those land destruction spells (plus Sunder and Armageddon) into some American-flavored deck fueled by hate and rage and childishness and spite. And it will be just as unfun. The problem isn't Jhoira, and it's barely what she enables.
I'll admit it, the problem is me. And you can't ban me from Magic. You can sit down and talk to me as a rational human being and say you hate my deck. You can encourage me to play something else, and I will, because I have eleven other things sleeved up. I know you can't do that to randoms on 'trice that will make sure you have a terrible time, but not every one of those guys is playing Jhoira, not even a majority. Social isn't the same as casual, and so when it comes to banning Tier, be social about it, don't be casual.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Being able to stop most generals with activated abilities, all problematic lands/cards seems a wonderful reason to run Needle. It's a one mana problem solver. What's not to love?
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Actual Truth:
just to be clear, Jhoira doesn't have to care about split second either if she uses her ability right away.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
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Actual Truth:
It's reactionary to a problem that often happens before you get the chance to know what needs to be dealt with. Maybe if your playgroup has a Jhoira, Arcam, and like the one serious problem generals. Not to mention that if crush deals with your removal there's a good chance you'll just get caught off guard.
I like to compare it to a very narrow O-Ring. That just doesn't inspire enough confidence to buy itself a spot in my deck. Especially because in my metagame it only does something noteworthy against 1 general.
I am aware. But playing her at 7 mana is not ideal.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
I wish people would stop complaining and just run answers. The foramt is fun BECAUSE it's broken - deal with it!
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
clearly the problem is that everyone should just run countermagic as an EDH deck right? that would take care of ALL of the banlist problems right?:rolleyes:
God, you all act this poll is some of binding thing, when it isn't. It's a way go hey this card is doing this blah blah,let's dicuss it in the context of the ban list. and if anyone has honestly paid attention to why Jhoira was brought up instread of ZOMG now we're jumping the shark cuz it isn't an issue for the majority of the big mouths on MTGS sicne they are the center of the MAgic playing universe.:rolleyes: They would see that it was brought up to due to shelden's comment about him having had his eye on it for a while.
EDIT: and everyone wonders why there isn't a watch list.:rolleyes:
you missed the point,with the "run more answers noob" means we dodn't even need a ban list,we jsut need all decks to run blue counter magic. Name one card on the banlist that you can't run some answer to...
She can have some powerful starts on occasion, but she isn't game-breaking in the slightest.
you missed the point.."Run more answers" is an't always the answer.. and if it were we wouldn't need a ban list at all...
In the case of Jhoira it's always going to be watched and brought up for dicussion anytime a card like Jokulhaups or Obliterate or some mega fattie is printed simply because of it's ablity. so everyone should just get used to that fact. but i'm now inspried to make a new thread.
Jhoira as a card, is not horribly strong, but is instead one of the strongest generals for a strategy that appears to be unpopular (ala, derdling/playing solitaire/what ever you want to call it).
The problem is that most people, either for or against it, are coming up with really dumb responses to how Jhoira is/isn't broken. Whether its Sun's response of any deck beats Jhoira, or these God-hands people keep mentioning, these don't really show Jhoira as a consistent threat.
That being said, I kind of want her banned just because of how uninteractive she is. Even combo can usually be interacted with in some way or shape, but apart from Riftsweeper, no card really interacts with suspend.
This brings us to a point I wanted to try and ask (which was originally brought up in an article on mtgs about banning or not banning sol ring): Is the argument of The power/effect of muiltiplayer allows broken cards to be fine really an agrument/philosophy that most people support? I feel as though people think Jhoira is fine, because all the people at the table will look at her first. I personally feel that is a very slippery slope that could likely be said about every card on the ban list.
I just want some opinions.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Why do we bother investing and playing into a game that is just going to suspend everything. Stop banning things now before EDH or Commander becomes just another format like Modern or Legacy. Let it stay the true casual format. Wanna know the best answer to people playing degenerate decks? Do not invite them to play again, or tell them to play something else. If not then the invitation doe snot always need to be sent to the player playing the degenerate deck.
People need to stop QQing, it really is sad.
EDIT: I am also VERY happy to see that the number of NO'S is DOUBLE all the other answers put together. Rightfully so.
Very well stated. Personally I'm more in favor of banning her as a general.
Most of the time the only appropriate answer to a Jhoira player is for every player to smash in and kill her over the next 3 turns. While a lot of people might say she's fine because if everyone focuses that player down they lose before they make an impact. I tend to disagree, because if the only appropriate response to a general is to form a coalition in the interest of killing that player, the general has warped the game out of control before it even gets cast.
One could argue that she dies to removal, phrased as such to show how I feel about the argument, but she only needs to get around the circle once before the only reasonable solution becomes to team up against the Jhoira player.
I am a bit conflicted however, because Jhoira has potential for fair use. If it wasn't for her stupid interaction with Obliterate effects I really would never complain about her because she'd just be an amusing timmy general. I personally own a Jhoira deck on magic online that runs no such effects and enjoy playing it without ruining anyone's fun.
In summary, while not totally without reservation, I'm in favor of banning Jhoira as a general. If she ever gets banned from the other 99 something is horribly wrong.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
It's the amount of Yes that scares the hell out of me. It's just the nature of the player base. They have been conditioned that stuff will constantly be banned. Whenever you ban something, something just replaces it (unless you wipe out the whole strategy). As far as I'm concerned, banning jhoria kills a design aspect to this game. She is literally the poster child of suspend, ban her, and suspend becomes a gimmicky mechanic. That constricts design.
The thing is generals like azami and the mimeoplasm do this as well. There are a ton of generals that literally muddy the waters before the game even starts, they just earned that reputation. The difference between jhoria and banned generals like rofellos and erayo is that you're trying to kill them super fast just to have a game. With jhoria, you're trying to kill her super fast because you don't want her to blow your lands up.
Don't you think it's a bit pretentious to say that the only reason someone would have a opinion different from yours is because they've been conditioned to. I cannot wrap my head around the concept of believing that someone of a differing opinion is not only objectively wrong, but also that it can't simply be how a large portion of the population sees the issue.
A large amount of yes shouldn't scare the hell out of you. It should simply show that this is an issue that the community disagrees on. It doesn't scare me that about half the country doesn't share my political ideologies. It's human nature to disagree.
Looking at a card and saying it shouldn't be touched because of a unique quality distracts from the issue at hand. If a card is offensive enough to be dealt with, then protecting it for almost any reason goes against the point of a banlist. A banlist is for cards that are for one reason or another offensive enough to get on it. If something is bad enough to be on a banlist but it isn't then why have a banlist in the first place.
I'll have to concede that you're right on this account. She's not alone and she very possibly isn't the worst offender. But I have to wonder if it's healthy for the format having commanders that turn a game into archenemy before it's started.
Jhoira is, however a bit different from the other two in that removal generally solves the problem outright, whereas if Jhoira isn't caught fast it warps the game entirely to being about her. I'd honestly rather be oneshot by the occasional mimeoplasm than have to play archenemy commander.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Be the giver or the undertaker
Unlock and open the door
Be the healer or the breaker
The keys are in your hands
Realize you are your own source of all creation
BOf your own master planB
Conceded much?
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver