Number of times Hermit Druid has been relevant in the past two months of play for me: 2
Number of times the game centered on him: 1
Number of times Prime Time has been relevant in the past two months of play for me: too many goddamn times to count
Number of times the game centered around him: also too many goddamn times
Number of times Hermit Druid has been relevant in the past two months of play for me: 2
Number of times the game centered on him: 1
Number of times Prime Time has been relevant in the past two months of play for me: too many goddamn times to count
Number of times the game centered around him: also too many goddamn times
I've had the same results, and I play both cards.
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Narrow cards that win on the spot or flop (Ad NAus and Druid) can be handled by the group. PT makes the game all about him, and everyone wants LAND! So we don't self regulate and it gets warped.
So basically what you are saying is since
Combo = bad
People regulate combos away.
Ramp = Good
People want to ramp more.
People don't even steal combos to instant win when they can in half my games. The reason everyone wants land is the same reason everyone wants sol ring playing spells faster than your opponents wins games. Ideally you wait for them to do something so you feel better about winning but in reality its best to deny them the chance. Essentially it's not that PT is too good it's that people HATE the answers to prime time that make bouncing a prime time around TERRIBLE. My meta does not, Zur, kahlia and Ghave all play geddon and other MLD. The other out, combo is a frequent feature of my games.
I agree with your second point, but all EDH decks make they choice every time they are tweaked. EDH is broken if you want it to be.
That's my biggest gripe. There are essentially three or four tiers of decks in EDH.
1) Hyper competitive combo decks, and tier 1 control or aggro/control act. For example Hermit druid/Ad nauseam/tuned edric/any reanimated overpowered creature(Jin gitaxus/it that betrays/vorinclex/now banned sundering titan)
1.5) Strong combo decks such as tooth and nail or time stretch decks tend to be good stuff piles and combo/control. These are what players like me who like combo but would hate to play with silly cards play (EX Time vault would be Tier 0 all by itself)
2) Goodstuff and synergy decks. Tend to be good but not overwhelming can beat tier 1/1.5 decks if there are 3 of them around but the top tier decks will still average well over 25% wins
3) Fun stuff decks and theme decks. Casual even by the standards of the RC.
The problem is that PT move you up from Tier 2 to Tier 1.5 all by himself without pushing you to tier 1. So people like me face a choice move up or down on the list. It's sad they ban a card with that much balancing power (Since he is terrible in a Tier 1 deck) got banned.
People don't even steal combos to instant win when they can in half my games. The reason everyone wants land is the same reason everyone wants sol ring playing spells faster than your opponents wins games. Ideally you wait for them to do something so you feel better about winning but in reality its best to deny them the chance. Essentially it's not that PT is too good it's that people HATE the answers to prime time that make bouncing a prime time around TERRIBLE. My meta does not, Zur, kahlia and Ghave all play geddon and other MLD. The other out, combo is a frequent feature of my games.
So don't ban him in your meta, he is bonkers in non-Tier0 metas.
That's my biggest gripe. There are essentially three or four tiers of decks in EDH.
1) Hyper competitive combo decks, and tier 1 control or aggro/control act. For example Hermit druid/Ad nauseam/tuned edric/any reanimated overpowered creature(Jin gitaxus/it that betrays/vorinclex/now banned sundering titan)
1.5) Strong combo decks such as tooth and nail or time stretch decks tend to be good stuff piles and combo/control. These are what players like me who like combo but would hate to play with silly cards play (EX Time vault would be Tier 0 all by itself)
2) Goodstuff and synergy decks. Tend to be good but not overwhelming can beat tier 1/1.5 decks if there are 3 of them around but the top tier decks will still average well over 25% wins
3) Fun stuff decks and theme decks. Casual even by the standards of the RC.
The problem is that PT move you up from Tier 2 to Tier 1.5 all by himself without pushing you to tier 1. So people like me face a choice move up or down on the list. It's sad they ban a card with that much balancing power (Since he is terrible in a Tier 1 deck) got banned.
He is not terrible in T1 decks, and that is a false choice. If he made semi-good decks T1.5 and without it they are T2 THAT CARD IS TOO POWERFUL and/or centralizing.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
That's my biggest gripe. There are essentially three or four tiers of decks in EDH.
1) Hyper competitive combo decks, and tier 1 control or aggro/control act. For example Hermit druid/Ad nauseam/tuned edric/any reanimated overpowered creature(Jin gitaxus/it that betrays/vorinclex/now banned sundering titan)
1.5) Strong combo decks such as tooth and nail or time stretch decks tend to be good stuff piles and combo/control. These are what players like me who like combo but would hate to play with silly cards play (EX Time vault would be Tier 0 all by itself)
2) Goodstuff and synergy decks. Tend to be good but not overwhelming can beat tier 1/1.5 decks if there are 3 of them around but the top tier decks will still average well over 25% wins
3) Fun stuff decks and theme decks. Casual even by the standards of the RC.
The problem is that PT move you up from Tier 2 to Tier 1.5 all by himself without pushing you to tier 1. So people like me face a choice move up or down on the list. It's sad they ban a card with that much balancing power (Since he is terrible in a Tier 1 deck) got banned.
This is tremendously well expressed. However, it also nicely illustrates the problem - Commander is designed for Tier 2 and 3 decks. If a card is pushing a deck into the high tiers by itself, it's a sign that there's a serious problem, since we'd like that not to happen.
I understand that what you're looking for doesn't match the vision of the format - you want to play Tier 1.5. That's fine, and we give you as many tools as possible to shape it to your own vision. But you have to embrace that flexibility and realize that the bulk of casual players - who you may encounter upon your travels - will have a bad experience playing against your deck (through no fault of your own), because they do not share your vision. Of course, some do, and you should remember where they are so that you can have awesome games together.
This is tremendously well expressed. However, it also nicely illustrates the problem - Commander is designed for Tier 2 and 3 decks. If a card is pushing a deck into the high tiers by itself, it's a sign that there's a serious problem, since we'd like that not to happen.
I understand that what you're looking for doesn't match the vision of the format - you want to play Tier 1.5. That's fine, and we give you as many tools as possible to shape it to your own vision. But you have to embrace that flexibility and realize that the bulk of casual players - who you may encounter upon your travels - will have a bad experience playing against your deck (through no fault of your own), because they do not share your vision. Of course, some do, and you should remember where they are so that you can have awesome games together.
Thank you for that. I feel like EDH was designed for T2, (T3 being the guy who wins possibly 1 game in 10-15) I understand that many people dislike the tier 1.5 decks and will have poor experiences against them. That said with the exceptions of a couple generals in our area just about everyone runs an infinite combo or 2(the ones that don't are Zur and arcum far from innocent decks.)
I am aware primeval titan is powerful that's the point. It is VERY good but not so good that it is too strong (in my case) as a reanimation target or a bribery target.
I have had an entirely tier 2 deck for a while (Maelstorm wanderer) It was just big fatties (Although it DID contain kiki/conscripts I was actually unaware of the interaction when I created it, I was also unaware of Guilded lotus/conscripts/deadeye) I only actually won a single game by going infinite and then dismantled the deck. (That's one game won at all over a 20+ game attempt at making it work) It wasn't fun to play a T2 deck vs T1.5 decks. Unfortunately it was 3 color and I had good cards in it so it isn't still around.
That all being said if you want to play with more than a pod of 3 other people you must abide the banned list. The most aggravating thing I have ever seen is the assumption you can ignore this. You can't a group of 4 players can ignore it but a LGS would be hard pressed to successfully ignore any banned list. You are playing the commander format saying ignore the banned list is tantamount to saying "Go play vintage."
So don't ban him in your meta, he is bonkers in non-Tier0 metas.
See above. Also he is bonkers in a Tier 2 meta in a T1.5 meta he is merely another very good card and he is unplayable in tier 1 or tier 0 (The one thing the RC has been able to do is keep tier 0 from existing which is good the only card I see on the list that could even make tier 0 is time vault)
He is not terrible in T1 decks, and that is a false choice. If he made semi-good decks T1.5 and without it they are T2 THAT CARD IS TOO POWERFUL and/or centralizing.
If you think he is good in Tier 1 decks you aren't playing tier 1 decks. He is a solid card in T1.5, he is unfortunately the best T1.5 "Fair but strong" option the best example I can come up with is from my experience with my own deck.
If you entomb T1 with a reanimate/dance/animate/necromancy in hand you can go for Jin gitaxus, Prime time, or terrastradon. Jin is a card where you have the answer or you basically lose. Prime time put's you ahead but far from broken. The elephant eats mana rocks sol rings and such. The problem is there aren't too terribly many T1.5 targets. Prime time and C sphinx are about it with the later being a just worse Jin.
So we were playing this morning and a friend who plays (very well) graced us with his presence for the first time in more then six months. Finds out he didn't get word about the Titan banning so we, of course, let him play with it.
First game he ramps into a turn 4-5 Tooth and Nail (not entwined) drops Titan and Kiki-Jiki. Next thing you know he drops 6 non-basics on the table, everything from Maze of Ith to a pair of fetchlands.
Can't say I am unhappy that I won't be on the receiving end of that again.
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See above. Also he is bonkers in a Tier 2 meta in a T1.5 meta he is merely another very good card and he is unplayable in tier 1 or tier 0 (The one thing the RC has been able to do is keep tier 0 from existing which is good the only card I see on the list that could even make tier 0 is time vault)
If you think he is good in Tier 1 decks you aren't playing tier 1 decks. He is a solid card in T1.5, he is unfortunately the best T1.5 "Fair but strong" option the best example I can come up with is from my experience with my own deck.
Then we have to agree to disagree. Show me a T1 green deck that is not improved by Prime Time and I will concede your point. Until then I will continue to think he is the best green creature printed.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
In the groups where I play, the regulars are solidly tier 2, with some people leaning a bit toward 1.5 (1.75, maybe?) Mass land destruction is strongly discouraged, though there is one guy who plays it occasionally, and most do not approve when people play things like Back to Basics or Worldfire. Some people straight-out won't play decks running those sorts of cards. Nobody in the meta plays hard Stax, and I doubt that style would be accepted by most of the people in this meta.
There are also a few people that play Tier 1, but they mostly play within their own group of super-fast combo decks supported by Mana Drain, Force of Will and so forth. They mostly play either mono-blue or U/X with a heavy leaning toward blue. Arcum, Teferi and so forth are popular generals in this crowd. It's not a style of play that interests me, but they clearly enjoy it, so that's cool. And as far as I can tell, they follow the banned list.
First game he ramps into a turn 4-5 Tooth and Nail (not entwined) drops Titan and Kiki-Jiki. Next thing you know he drops 6 non-basics on the table, everything from Maze of Ith to a pair of fetchlands.
Silly! What happened 2nd game?
On the subject of the banning...
Prime Time is a creature, which is to say the most fragile card type in the game. It can be destroyed, exiled, copied, sacrificed, lignified, torpored, and countered. The only thing easier to answer than a creature is a legendary creature.
Hitting the table as a 6/6 trampler for 6cmc is not a big deal in a game where eldrazi are not uncommon. He does not have hexproof, indestructible, undying, protection, or the ability to blink himself. His body is not the problem.
Given the plethora of removal at the fingertips of EDH players (and the fragile nature of the titan) there is no good reason for a resolved Primeval Titan to swing multiple times. So, the real problem with the Titan is his EtB ability. If there was a 6 cmc sorcery that fetched 2 non-basic lands, it might get the same treatment. A single activation is enough to set up game-warping land combos.
Not that combo is a bad thing. Prior to Primeval Titan, there was no serious chatter of banning Urborg + Coffers. That was because pulling off a combo typically required at least a few tutors or a sacrifice to the gods of luck. Primeval Titan is one card doing the work of two. He makes combo too easy. (Many complain that Tooth and Nail makes two-card combo too easy.)
So, I think I understand the banning. Yet, I don't agree with it.
The plethora of ramp decks could have been stopped with cards that are already available if players weren't too stubborn to play them. Tradition dictates that some cards are no good and convincing players otherwise can take time. I don't have the vast experience of many players here, but sillyramp.dec seemed to me more of a fad than a dramatic evolution. It seems to me the meta was too stubborn to change. To some extent, every card changes the meta. I think Primeval Titan's impact qualifies as significant change. However, he did not demand format-warping change.
Prime Time is a creature, which is to say the most fragile card type in the game. It can be destroyed, exiled, copied, sacrificed, lignified, torpored, and countered. The only thing easier to answer than a creature is a legendary creature.
Creatures are the strongest most resilient card type. They can be reanimated, easily tutored for, and copied. With the current creature design I expect more creatures to be banned in the future.
i had advocating for my local group to ban prime time for about a year. i am soo glad he finally got the ax. PT negates the single most defining aspect of EDH(commander) the 100 card singleton rule. Our play group devolved into a local meta of abusing every type of utility land through PT. Everybody would complain about how our decks should run more answers to either the lands or PT, then complain when mass land destruction was used. Finally everybody gave up and just figured out more ways to abuse PT. it got soo bad every game ended them same, whoever abused PT the most won. after a few weeks of this we all switched to playing pauper EDH. for the first time in months guys are making normal EDH decks again.
THANK YOU RC!!!
Given the plethora of removal at the fingertips of EDH players (and the fragile nature of the titan) there is no good reason for a resolved Primeval Titan to swing multiple times.
Three of the four of us switched decks.
For the record he didn't get a swing in with it. He did however reanimate it to buff his plant tokens after he recasted T&N for Avenger of Zendikar and Urabrask the Hidden.
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Show me a T1 green deck that is not improved by Prime Time and I will concede your point. Until then I will continue to think he is the best green creature printed.
Does it have to be mono green? Because there are no tier 1 mono green decks, no azusa is not tier 1. Green cards? Two of the best legal cards in the format are green (hermit druid and oath) Prime time is utterly unplayable in oath (As in it literally breaks the deck's combo) and adds nothing to hermit druid that another shallow grave, apprentice necromancer, or whatever will not make faster and better over PT. T1 decks are the tried and true combo decks. The highly tuned edric and animar lists which go infinite or arbitrarily large on turn 3-5. If you are playing prime time you are almost automatically NOT playing tier 1.
And as far as I can tell, they follow the banned list.
The higher up the tiers you go the less likely you are to be able to remove a card from the list which is why many people (like myself) would like them to ban a few (Between 4-6) cards in tier 1 to nearly eliminate tier 1 entirely. In our more serious group we have agreed to not use them but have played each of them in our decks various weeks. The ad nauseam deck beat the table every time, the power artifact deck was brutal but not quite as good, the druid deck demolishes everything in sight and oath was untested but assumed on the premise of druid being too good.
There is nothing wrong if the group agree's but a few cards limit design space far more than prime time if you want to play more serious games.
30 Norin players
The overwhelming majority has decided. Ban red, anything in norin's color is too good.
Creatures are the strongest most resilient card type. They can be reanimated, easily tutored for, and copied. With the current creature design I expect more creatures to be banned in the future.
Yet, that's clearly not the reason he is being banned.
You're right, he was banned for all of those reasons in addition to completely negating the resource management portion of magic.
No offence but resource management is still not part of EDH, the entire goal of EDH in more casual games is not to manage your resources to deal with opponents but to generate so much mana you can kill each opponent with big splashy spells.
EDH has and always will be about generating more resources than your opponents not managing them.
No offence but resource management is still not part of EDH, the entire goal of EDH in more casual games is not to manage your resources to deal with opponents but to generate so much mana you can kill each opponent with big splashy spells.
EDH has and always will be about generating more resources than your opponents not managing them.
So you're saying the entire basis for the game of magic itself suddenly doesn't apply when you throw in another 29 cards and force singletons and color restrictions?
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
No offence but resource management is still not part of EDH, the entire goal of EDH in more casual games is not to manage your resources to deal with opponents but to generate so much mana you can kill each opponent with big splashy spells.
EDH has and always will be about generating more resources than your opponents not managing them.
There is absolutely no way this is not a troll post. I'm not even sure how to intelligently respond to it. All I can say is...you are unbelievably wrong.
So you're saying the entire basis for the game of magic itself suddenly doesn't apply when you throw in another 29 cards and force singletons and color restrictions?
No I am saying the entire basis of magic doesn't apply when you socially reject answers to problems that arise along side a very indirect mission statement of "Have fun" being subjective.
The entire basis for magic changes when you change the accepted rules as radically as commander does. (Multiplayer/for fun/shun some cards)
Yes. The basis for commander is fundamentally different than any other format.
EDIT:
There is absolutely no way this is not a troll post. I'm not even sure how to intelligently respond to it. All I can say is...you are unbelievably wrong.
It is in no way a troll post. There is a reason wrath effects are more popular than spot removal. A good reason ramp is more prevalent and discussed than any other archetype. There is a reason that is the way the format works too, because it's fun. Not because its effective.
No I am saying the entire basis of magic doesn't apply when you socially reject answers to problems that arise along side a very indirect mission statement of "Have fun" being subjective.
The entire basis for magic changes when you change the accepted rules as radically as commander does. (Multiplayer/for fun/shun some cards)
Yes. The basis for commander is fundamentally different than any other format.
For years, the only format me and my buddies played was "casual" and almost always in a multiplayer setting. We didn't even know there were formats!
Nearly every day during lunch we'd sit down and start trading blows. With our incredibly limited card pool it was pretty much a crapshoot. I ran monoish white soldiers, we had a slivers deck, an elfball deck, wurms, dragons, and shamans. The name of the game was essentially kill the sliver player before he got going (I had a sliver deck too, which I sometimes used) or ... well, there wasn't really a goal. We played because it was fun.
Eventually, inevitably, someone brought a second sunrise based combo deck to the group. It was cheap, maybe 10-20 bucks for the whole thing. After playing a few matches against it, we banned it because we really couldn't stop it. But it was too late. We were headed down the road of competition.
The goal of our little group:
1. Play Magic
2. Have fun while playing magic.
If someone popped up that we didn't like, we banned it. It wasn't a problem, the "format" as it were, was completely balanced among us... except for slivers. We discovered board wipes and that was the end of that...
So, according to your wonderful analysis of what it is to play magic, our group wasn't actually playing magic. Our for fun multiplayer decks with a hardon for hating combo wasn't what it was to play magic.
Our decks, essentially 60-card commander decks considering we were all dirt poor, being kids, and generally singleton, were not magic decks. We weren't trying to generate ten thousand mana and kill everyone. We were managing what we had in an effort to do something. I'm glad to know this isn't actually magic.
Is this the general gist?
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
No what you were playing wasn't a format. It was magic but it was formless and format-less and as such undefinable.
EDIT: The format you describe sounds a whole lot like the tier 3 decks I mentioned earlier. If you plan a format around formless magic like tier 3 decks with new players you are just wasting time. Tier 3 decks are true casual magic and no format can contain them no banned list is needed and the group agree's by virtue of being a format EDH has accomplished a fantastic feat of allowing those decks to exist alongside the other decks.
You're right, he was banned for all of those reasons in addition to completely negating the resource management portion of magic.
No, to my understanding he was not banned for all those reasons. If being a creature is a ban-worthy offense, then the RC has been slacking a bit, dontcha think? As I wrote above, it is his EtB that appears to be the problem. That is the titans only unique attribute.
As for resources... Destroy all creatures? Sure. Destroy every artifact? Absolutely. Tutor any creature from any opponent's library in a multiplayer format? Please do. Tutor any single card in your library? We need a few of those in every B deck. But if you tutor two cards - even if they are a specific type - you are warping the format. Two cards can produce a combo or game-winning synergy. Achieving that with multiple cards is celebrated. Doing it with one card is heresy. Hence the hate for Prime Time and TnN.
No what you were playing wasn't a format. It was magic but it was formless and format-less and as such undefinable.
Of course it was a format. It was our format. I wasn't aware the fundamental game principles of magic ceased to exist simply because I wasn't playing one of the declared formats for general play.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Number of times Hermit Druid has been relevant in the past two months of play for me: 2
Number of times the game centered on him: 1
Number of times Prime Time has been relevant in the past two months of play for me: too many goddamn times to count
Number of times the game centered around him: also too many goddamn times
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
I've had the same results, and I play both cards.
So basically what you are saying is since
Combo = bad
People regulate combos away.
Ramp = Good
People want to ramp more.
People don't even steal combos to instant win when they can in half my games. The reason everyone wants land is the same reason everyone wants sol ring playing spells faster than your opponents wins games. Ideally you wait for them to do something so you feel better about winning but in reality its best to deny them the chance. Essentially it's not that PT is too good it's that people HATE the answers to prime time that make bouncing a prime time around TERRIBLE. My meta does not, Zur, kahlia and Ghave all play geddon and other MLD. The other out, combo is a frequent feature of my games.
That's my biggest gripe. There are essentially three or four tiers of decks in EDH.
1) Hyper competitive combo decks, and tier 1 control or aggro/control act. For example Hermit druid/Ad nauseam/tuned edric/any reanimated overpowered creature(Jin gitaxus/it that betrays/vorinclex/now banned sundering titan)
1.5) Strong combo decks such as tooth and nail or time stretch decks tend to be good stuff piles and combo/control. These are what players like me who like combo but would hate to play with silly cards play (EX Time vault would be Tier 0 all by itself)
2) Goodstuff and synergy decks. Tend to be good but not overwhelming can beat tier 1/1.5 decks if there are 3 of them around but the top tier decks will still average well over 25% wins
3) Fun stuff decks and theme decks. Casual even by the standards of the RC.
The problem is that PT move you up from Tier 2 to Tier 1.5 all by himself without pushing you to tier 1. So people like me face a choice move up or down on the list. It's sad they ban a card with that much balancing power (Since he is terrible in a Tier 1 deck) got banned.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
He is not terrible in T1 decks, and that is a false choice. If he made semi-good decks T1.5 and without it they are T2 THAT CARD IS TOO POWERFUL and/or centralizing.
This is tremendously well expressed. However, it also nicely illustrates the problem - Commander is designed for Tier 2 and 3 decks. If a card is pushing a deck into the high tiers by itself, it's a sign that there's a serious problem, since we'd like that not to happen.
I understand that what you're looking for doesn't match the vision of the format - you want to play Tier 1.5. That's fine, and we give you as many tools as possible to shape it to your own vision. But you have to embrace that flexibility and realize that the bulk of casual players - who you may encounter upon your travels - will have a bad experience playing against your deck (through no fault of your own), because they do not share your vision. Of course, some do, and you should remember where they are so that you can have awesome games together.
Thank you for that. I feel like EDH was designed for T2, (T3 being the guy who wins possibly 1 game in 10-15) I understand that many people dislike the tier 1.5 decks and will have poor experiences against them. That said with the exceptions of a couple generals in our area just about everyone runs an infinite combo or 2(the ones that don't are Zur and arcum far from innocent decks.)
I am aware primeval titan is powerful that's the point. It is VERY good but not so good that it is too strong (in my case) as a reanimation target or a bribery target.
I have had an entirely tier 2 deck for a while (Maelstorm wanderer) It was just big fatties (Although it DID contain kiki/conscripts I was actually unaware of the interaction when I created it, I was also unaware of Guilded lotus/conscripts/deadeye) I only actually won a single game by going infinite and then dismantled the deck. (That's one game won at all over a 20+ game attempt at making it work) It wasn't fun to play a T2 deck vs T1.5 decks. Unfortunately it was 3 color and I had good cards in it so it isn't still around.
That all being said if you want to play with more than a pod of 3 other people you must abide the banned list. The most aggravating thing I have ever seen is the assumption you can ignore this. You can't a group of 4 players can ignore it but a LGS would be hard pressed to successfully ignore any banned list. You are playing the commander format saying ignore the banned list is tantamount to saying "Go play vintage."
See above. Also he is bonkers in a Tier 2 meta in a T1.5 meta he is merely another very good card and he is unplayable in tier 1 or tier 0 (The one thing the RC has been able to do is keep tier 0 from existing which is good the only card I see on the list that could even make tier 0 is time vault)
If you think he is good in Tier 1 decks you aren't playing tier 1 decks. He is a solid card in T1.5, he is unfortunately the best T1.5 "Fair but strong" option the best example I can come up with is from my experience with my own deck.
If you entomb T1 with a reanimate/dance/animate/necromancy in hand you can go for Jin gitaxus, Prime time, or terrastradon. Jin is a card where you have the answer or you basically lose. Prime time put's you ahead but far from broken. The elephant eats mana rocks sol rings and such. The problem is there aren't too terribly many T1.5 targets. Prime time and C sphinx are about it with the later being a just worse Jin.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
First game he ramps into a turn 4-5 Tooth and Nail (not entwined) drops Titan and Kiki-Jiki. Next thing you know he drops 6 non-basics on the table, everything from Maze of Ith to a pair of fetchlands.
Can't say I am unhappy that I won't be on the receiving end of that again.
Would learn my licks with a bottle neck slide
In the groups where I play, the regulars are solidly tier 2, with some people leaning a bit toward 1.5 (1.75, maybe?) Mass land destruction is strongly discouraged, though there is one guy who plays it occasionally, and most do not approve when people play things like Back to Basics or Worldfire. Some people straight-out won't play decks running those sorts of cards. Nobody in the meta plays hard Stax, and I doubt that style would be accepted by most of the people in this meta.
There are also a few people that play Tier 1, but they mostly play within their own group of super-fast combo decks supported by Mana Drain, Force of Will and so forth. They mostly play either mono-blue or U/X with a heavy leaning toward blue. Arcum, Teferi and so forth are popular generals in this crowd. It's not a style of play that interests me, but they clearly enjoy it, so that's cool. And as far as I can tell, they follow the banned list.
Silly! What happened 2nd game?
On the subject of the banning...
Prime Time is a creature, which is to say the most fragile card type in the game. It can be destroyed, exiled, copied, sacrificed, lignified, torpored, and countered. The only thing easier to answer than a creature is a legendary creature.
Hitting the table as a 6/6 trampler for 6cmc is not a big deal in a game where eldrazi are not uncommon. He does not have hexproof, indestructible, undying, protection, or the ability to blink himself. His body is not the problem.
Given the plethora of removal at the fingertips of EDH players (and the fragile nature of the titan) there is no good reason for a resolved Primeval Titan to swing multiple times. So, the real problem with the Titan is his EtB ability. If there was a 6 cmc sorcery that fetched 2 non-basic lands, it might get the same treatment. A single activation is enough to set up game-warping land combos.
Not that combo is a bad thing. Prior to Primeval Titan, there was no serious chatter of banning Urborg + Coffers. That was because pulling off a combo typically required at least a few tutors or a sacrifice to the gods of luck. Primeval Titan is one card doing the work of two. He makes combo too easy. (Many complain that Tooth and Nail makes two-card combo too easy.)
So, I think I understand the banning. Yet, I don't agree with it.
The plethora of ramp decks could have been stopped with cards that are already available if players weren't too stubborn to play them. Tradition dictates that some cards are no good and convincing players otherwise can take time. I don't have the vast experience of many players here, but sillyramp.dec seemed to me more of a fad than a dramatic evolution. It seems to me the meta was too stubborn to change. To some extent, every card changes the meta. I think Primeval Titan's impact qualifies as significant change. However, he did not demand format-warping change.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
Creatures are the strongest most resilient card type. They can be reanimated, easily tutored for, and copied. With the current creature design I expect more creatures to be banned in the future.
THANK YOU RC!!!
Currently stands at:
190 for
191 against
30 Norin players
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Three of the four of us switched decks.
For the record he didn't get a swing in with it. He did however reanimate it to buff his plant tokens after he recasted T&N for Avenger of Zendikar and Urabrask the Hidden.
Would learn my licks with a bottle neck slide
I don't agree with that.
(Sorry I just couldn't resist)
Does it have to be mono green? Because there are no tier 1 mono green decks, no azusa is not tier 1. Green cards? Two of the best legal cards in the format are green (hermit druid and oath) Prime time is utterly unplayable in oath (As in it literally breaks the deck's combo) and adds nothing to hermit druid that another shallow grave, apprentice necromancer, or whatever will not make faster and better over PT. T1 decks are the tried and true combo decks. The highly tuned edric and animar lists which go infinite or arbitrarily large on turn 3-5. If you are playing prime time you are almost automatically NOT playing tier 1.
The higher up the tiers you go the less likely you are to be able to remove a card from the list which is why many people (like myself) would like them to ban a few (Between 4-6) cards in tier 1 to nearly eliminate tier 1 entirely. In our more serious group we have agreed to not use them but have played each of them in our decks various weeks. The ad nauseam deck beat the table every time, the power artifact deck was brutal but not quite as good, the druid deck demolishes everything in sight and oath was untested but assumed on the premise of druid being too good.
There is nothing wrong if the group agree's but a few cards limit design space far more than prime time if you want to play more serious games.
The overwhelming majority has decided. Ban red, anything in norin's color is too good.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Yet, that's clearly not the reason he is being banned.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
You're right, he was banned for all of those reasons in addition to completely negating the resource management portion of magic.
No offence but resource management is still not part of EDH, the entire goal of EDH in more casual games is not to manage your resources to deal with opponents but to generate so much mana you can kill each opponent with big splashy spells.
EDH has and always will be about generating more resources than your opponents not managing them.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
So you're saying the entire basis for the game of magic itself suddenly doesn't apply when you throw in another 29 cards and force singletons and color restrictions?
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
There is absolutely no way this is not a troll post. I'm not even sure how to intelligently respond to it. All I can say is...you are unbelievably wrong.
No I am saying the entire basis of magic doesn't apply when you socially reject answers to problems that arise along side a very indirect mission statement of "Have fun" being subjective.
The entire basis for magic changes when you change the accepted rules as radically as commander does. (Multiplayer/for fun/shun some cards)
Yes. The basis for commander is fundamentally different than any other format.
EDIT:
It is in no way a troll post. There is a reason wrath effects are more popular than spot removal. A good reason ramp is more prevalent and discussed than any other archetype. There is a reason that is the way the format works too, because it's fun. Not because its effective.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
For years, the only format me and my buddies played was "casual" and almost always in a multiplayer setting. We didn't even know there were formats!
Nearly every day during lunch we'd sit down and start trading blows. With our incredibly limited card pool it was pretty much a crapshoot. I ran monoish white soldiers, we had a slivers deck, an elfball deck, wurms, dragons, and shamans. The name of the game was essentially kill the sliver player before he got going (I had a sliver deck too, which I sometimes used) or ... well, there wasn't really a goal. We played because it was fun.
Eventually, inevitably, someone brought a second sunrise based combo deck to the group. It was cheap, maybe 10-20 bucks for the whole thing. After playing a few matches against it, we banned it because we really couldn't stop it. But it was too late. We were headed down the road of competition.
The goal of our little group:
1. Play Magic
2. Have fun while playing magic.
If someone popped up that we didn't like, we banned it. It wasn't a problem, the "format" as it were, was completely balanced among us... except for slivers. We discovered board wipes and that was the end of that...
So, according to your wonderful analysis of what it is to play magic, our group wasn't actually playing magic. Our for fun multiplayer decks with a hardon for hating combo wasn't what it was to play magic.
Our decks, essentially 60-card commander decks considering we were all dirt poor, being kids, and generally singleton, were not magic decks. We weren't trying to generate ten thousand mana and kill everyone. We were managing what we had in an effort to do something. I'm glad to know this isn't actually magic.
Is this the general gist?
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
No what you were playing wasn't a format. It was magic but it was formless and format-less and as such undefinable.
EDIT: The format you describe sounds a whole lot like the tier 3 decks I mentioned earlier. If you plan a format around formless magic like tier 3 decks with new players you are just wasting time. Tier 3 decks are true casual magic and no format can contain them no banned list is needed and the group agree's by virtue of being a format EDH has accomplished a fantastic feat of allowing those decks to exist alongside the other decks.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
No, to my understanding he was not banned for all those reasons. If being a creature is a ban-worthy offense, then the RC has been slacking a bit, dontcha think? As I wrote above, it is his EtB that appears to be the problem. That is the titans only unique attribute.
As for resources... Destroy all creatures? Sure. Destroy every artifact? Absolutely. Tutor any creature from any opponent's library in a multiplayer format? Please do. Tutor any single card in your library? We need a few of those in every B deck. But if you tutor two cards - even if they are a specific type - you are warping the format. Two cards can produce a combo or game-winning synergy. Achieving that with multiple cards is celebrated. Doing it with one card is heresy. Hence the hate for Prime Time and TnN.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
Of course it was a format. It was our format. I wasn't aware the fundamental game principles of magic ceased to exist simply because I wasn't playing one of the declared formats for general play.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary