I love you so much! Can you just put that on the EDH page with X instead of hermit druid? Please? Can you please just slap everyone who complains about kiki jiki and palinchron with this?
Palinchron would be the definition of accidentally degenerate if it were ever actually used accidentally.
The card breathes combos. Any mana doubler combos with Palinchron. Any land that produces large amounts of mana combos with Palinchron. Deadeye Navigator combos with Palinchron. All of these are fun cards that are played in the format often. The only reason why Palinchron isn't really accidentally degenerate is that it's old and few players have it, and it's obvious that it's meant to be used for combos, so people who use it are intending to go infinite.
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Palinchron would be the definition of accidentally degenerate if it were ever actually used accidentally.
The card breathes combos. Any mana doubler combos with Palinchron. Any land that produces large amounts of mana combos with Palinchron. Deadeye Navigator combos with Palinchron. All of these are fun cards that are played in the format often. The only reason why Palinchron isn't really accidentally degenerate is that it's old and few players have it, and it's obvious that it's meant to be used for combos, so people who use it are intending to go infinite.
I gotta agree with this. I run him in Animar (big surprise, right?) but I still support banning him. Like Druid, he doesn't get included unless you have a way to go infinite and an X dump, but damn if he isn't a boring "Herp and derp for infinity mana, cast Comet Storm" win. I know we just got Druid poll, but I wouldn't mind seeing a Pally poll next.
Hermit Druid is completely broken if you want to make it so. So we ban it. All the players playing it flock to the next-best broken thing. We ban that. They flock to the next broken thing. There's no amount of banning that can make their decks fun for the splashy-effects-and-tribal-synergies social crowd that is the bread and butter of the format. It's not like these people are being creative or interesting - they're simply copying the thing that lets them win off the net.
As a "most broken card" goes, Hermit Druid is pretty good - it's not terribly griefy, it's fun when you're not actively trying to break it in half, and it's not going to accidentally wreck games played in the appropriate spirit, while still providing an interesting effect.
I agree with this.
I voted "No." I'd really prefer to see Hermit Druid stay around the format.
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I'm fine with that. I honestly don't know what to expect in a few weeks other than the banned announcements. I was assuming that your clarification on the philosophy would address some of the ongoing debates, not necessarily a revision on your standpoint. Anything and everything you do is always appreciated
Suck up
Joking aside, I agree. While I may not always see eye to eye with the decisions the RC make (still pissed Griselbrand got banned, especially since he's no different than Hermit Druid in his role, and the banning of Sundering Titan was far too late and at a point where it was actually a bad decision thanks to cards like Prime Time), and will likely not agree with future decisions they make, but they do a lot of work and testing to try and make the format as fun as they can and to appeal to the most number of players as they can.
Joking aside, I agree. While I may not always see eye to eye with the decisions the RC make (still pissed Griselbrand got banned, especially since he's no different than Hermit Druid in his role, and the banning of Sundering Titan was far too late and at a point where it was actually a bad decision thanks to cards like Prime Time), and will likely not agree with future decisions they make, but they do a lot of work and testing to try and make the format as fun as they can and to appeal to the most number of players as they can.
Look here pal, it's my sucking up that keeps Craw Wurm off the ban list year after year. YOU'RE WELCOME EVERYBODY.
Palinchron would be the definition of accidentally degenerate if it were ever actually used accidentally.
The card breathes combos. Any mana doubler combos with Palinchron. Any land that produces large amounts of mana combos with Palinchron. Deadeye Navigator combos with Palinchron. All of these are fun cards that are played in the format often. The only reason why Palinchron isn't really accidentally degenerate is that it's old and few players have it, and it's obvious that it's meant to be used for combos, so people who use it are intending to go infinite.
What? No, palinchron isn't accidentally broken, he is broken and is made to be abused. He's not a fun card that people use, he is used for the expressed purpose of comboing. There is nothing accidental about it. He's been used for that since high tide was printed.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
What? No, palinchron isn't accidentally broken, he is broken and is made to be abused. He's not a fun card that people use, he is used for the expressed purpose of comboing. There is nothing accidental about it. He's been used for that since high tide was printed.
Yeah. He was used for combo from his very birth. That's honestly the only reason I don't support a ban, that's all he's used for. Players intend to use him for mana. He's not accidental, if you run him, you intend to break him and go infinite.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Yeah. He was used for combo from his very birth. That's honestly the only reason I don't support a ban, that's all he's used for. Players intend to use him for mana. He's not accidental, if you run him, you intend to break him and go infinite.
I'll have you know I've used Palinchron as sac fodder for Grimgrin or a quick blocker from time to time.
Joking aside, I agree. While I may not always see eye to eye with the decisions the RC make (still pissed Griselbrand got banned, especially since he's no different than Hermit Druid in his role, and the banning of Sundering Titan was far too late and at a point where it was actually a bad decision thanks to cards like Prime Time), and will likely not agree with future decisions they make, but they do a lot of work and testing to try and make the format as fun as they can and to appeal to the most number of players as they can.
It's because Griselbrand isn't broken just because he's a combo enabler. He's the best repeatable draw ever printed, on a big dude with relevant abilities. The draw helps ANYTHING start winning, whether it be a controllish strategy to swarm aggro to combo to anything else. He's arguably the best card ever printed for this format, and that's seriously saying something.
Sundering Titan I agree with you with, especially the bit about Prime Time.
As far as the RC goes... I used to intensely dislike a lot of their reasoning and decision making, especially some of the things Sheldon said, but they've changed and I've changed to understand the format in a different light. The next few months will change that opinion for the better or for the worse, I imagine.
Awhile back, I asked who had played against Hermit Druid combo over at mtgcommander.net, and got basically the same set of responses: "I've never played against the deck," "I played against it and lost repeatedly, but I don't understand how the deck really works," or "Well, it's obviously broken, but just because it's broken doesn't mean it needs to be banned."
Here's the deal...
I only play cards in person, and my options for which people I have available to play with is limited (yes I live in bumble**** nowhere; no, I don't have a collection on MTGO). And unfortunately, my friends and the LGS are split between a "normal" casual EDH mindset, and a "EDH is the new Vintage" mindset. There's no way to negotiate what the format should look like (there are local judges and store employees on both sides of the argument, and the store management is unlikely to make a decision that will drive off one group). So until something changes, the semi-official banned list is the law of the land.
Hermit Druid hits a sore spot, since one of my friends has a Hermit Druid + Necrotic Ooze combo deck with The Mimeoplasm as the commander. Unlike what several previous posters have argued, you do not "have to dedicate your entire deck." The Necrotic Ooze combo is good by itself, and the rest of the deck functions pretty much like any other BUG combo-control build; the only difference is that it has a combo enabler (ie, Hermit Druid) that lets it win on turn 2. So even if you stop the Druid, the deck can still win a fair game.
I've been playing EDH on paper for about 4 years up and down the East Coast; in that time, I have not played against a deck with Hermit Druid doing anything fun or fair. If there are players running it just for the dredge, it seems like it'd be easy to replace with actual dredge cards that don't have the insta-win.
Also, I recognize that the rules committee cannot ban EVERY broken combo, but as far as I can see from my other experience, or reading/listening to the experience of others, there's a short list of cards (Hermit Druid among them) that just exist to grief. For the record, I do not favor unbanning Kokusho, and I support banning Ad Nauseum, Palinchron, and Mind of Matter. Instead of hearing "These cards are banned; local groups can ban more as necessary," I would like to hear "These (significant number) of cards are banned; local groups can unban as necessary."
Sorry to write y'all a novel; I'll go back to lurking.
Whether or not Hermit Druid deserves to be banned depends on how you view the format.
If you view the format as "haters gonna hate" and consign yourself to the fact that the guy who's going to win on turn 4 with Hermit Druid combo would do it with Ad Nauseam or something else if HD was not available, then Hermit Druid is PROBABLY okay. Self-regulation and all that.
If you view the format as something that is played with some degree of competitive spirit to it, then Hermit Druid almost certainly needs to be banned.
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Palinchron is only the go to illusion, because he bounces himself, but the other 3 are just as capable of going infinite mana with support. And other than Cloud of Faeries all are 'two card combos' with Deadeye Navigator.
Regardless, infinite mana is not actually a win condition, it merely facilitates other win conditions.
Awhile back, I asked who had played against Hermit Druid combo over at mtgcommander.net, and got basically the same set of responses: "I've never played against the deck," "I played against it and lost repeatedly, but I don't understand how the deck really works," or "Well, it's obviously broken, but just because it's broken doesn't mean it needs to be banned."
Here's the deal...
I only play cards in person, and my options for which people I have available to play with is limited (yes I live in bumble**** nowhere; no, I don't have a collection on MTGO). And unfortunately, my friends and the LGS are split between a "normal" casual EDH mindset, and a "EDH is the new Vintage" mindset. There's no way to negotiate what the format should look like (there are local judges and store employees on both sides of the argument, and the store management is unlikely to make a decision that will drive off one group). So until something changes, the semi-official banned list is the law of the land.
Hermit Druid hits a sore spot, since one of my friends has a Hermit Druid + Necrotic Ooze combo deck with The Mimeoplasm as the commander. Unlike what several previous posters have argued, you do not "have to dedicate your entire deck." The Necrotic Ooze combo is good by itself, and the rest of the deck functions pretty much like any other BUG combo-control build; the only difference is that it has a combo enabler (ie, Hermit Druid) that lets it win on turn 2. So even if you stop the Druid, the deck can still win a fair game.
I've been playing EDH on paper for about 4 years up and down the East Coast; in that time, I have not played against a deck with Hermit Druid doing anything fun or fair. If there are players running it just for the dredge, it seems like it'd be easy to replace with actual dredge cards that don't have the insta-win.
Also, I recognize that the rules committee cannot ban EVERY broken combo, but as far as I can see from my other experience, or reading/listening to the experience of others, there's a short list of cards (Hermit Druid among them) that just exist to grief. For the record, I do not favor unbanning Kokusho, and I support banning Ad Nauseum, Palinchron, and Mind of Matter. Instead of hearing "These cards are banned; local groups can ban more as necessary," I would like to hear "These (significant number) of cards are banned; local groups can unban as necessary."
Sorry to write y'all a novel; I'll go back to lurking.
I'm sorry to say this, but your outlook on how the format should handle banning is not going to be good for its health at all. Restrictive banlists tend to chase off new players and stifle a format's potential. Just look at Modern, where they went on a crazy banning spree and lost a huge chunk of potential players as a result.
The official, true banlist needs to be as small as is reasonable with the firm suggestion that anyone interested in organizing tournaments add to it and make their own list for said tournaments.
EDH is a casual, social format; cards and decks that get too powerful within playgroups will be self regulated within the group. It was not created with the intention of being played competitively, and while that style of play does exist it should not be its focus. As such, the ban list and any other rules or restrictions should be based around that with further steps being taken only within their appropriate contexts, i.e. tournament play.
It is a LOT easier, simpler, and overall better to have a small banlist with the caveat "ADD TO THIS IF PLAYING COMPETITIVELY" rather than having a large one and expecting people to remove from it. Most players take the banlist as absolute law, and won't understand or accept the idea of changing it if they aren't "playing to win at all costs".
Just look at Modern, where they went on a crazy banning spree and lost a huge chunk of potential players as a result.
I'm also sorry; this is empirically false. I mean if you want to argue it as, "Anyone who plays magic was a potential Modern Player, and a non-zero number of them were turned off by the banned list," then ok. But if you look at tournament attendance (like Grand Prixs, Trials, PTQs, whatever), or MTGO stuff like Daily Events, Modern has been thriving since the Post-Philly bannings.
I should also clarify that I'm not talking about organizing events or tournaments. I specifically mean that in my local meta, we are unable to reach an agreement on how the game should be played, and as such, we cannot regulate players who think Ad Nauseum or Worldfire are acceptable cards.
For me personally, this means I'm likely to quit EDH and take up Modern and Legacy (there are weekly events for these around here; I'm pretty sure the high number of eternal sharks is why it's hard getting casual EDH to work). If I'm going to play with or against combo, it might as well be in formats where everyone's on the same page about it.
Whether or not Hermit Druid deserves to be banned depends on how you view the format.
If you view the format as "haters gonna hate" and consign yourself to the fact that the guy who's going to win on turn 4 with Hermit Druid combo would do it with Ad Nauseam or something else if HD was not available, then Hermit Druid is PROBABLY okay. Self-regulation and all that.
If you view the format as something that is played with some degree of competitive spirit to it, then Hermit Druid almost certainly needs to be banned.
Nailed it on the head. At the end of the day, if you want this to be competitive, a lot of cards will be banned to attempt balance. In EDH balance is achieved by building to your play group. Once you build decks with that in mind, you can avoid a lot of bad games.
I'm also sorry; this is empirically false. Whether you look at competitive tournament attendance (like Grand Prixs, Trials, PTQs, whatever), or MTGO stuff like Daily Events, Modern has been thriving since the Post-Philly bannings.
I should also clarify that I'm not talking about organizing events or tournaments. I specifically mean that in my local meta, we are unable to reach an agreement on how the game should be played, and as such, we cannot regulate players who think Ad Nauseum or Worldfire are acceptable cards.
For me personally, this means I'm likely to quit EDH and take up Modern and Legacy (there are weekly events for these around here; I'm pretty sure the high number of eternal sharks is why it's hard getting casual EDH to work). If I'm going to play with or against combo, it might as well be in formats where everyone's on the same page about it.
I have never heard a good thing about modern as a format. I'm not even kidding, not once. Regardless of it's popularity, even the modern players I talked to said it best "it's really a joke format with a crazy banlist... but hey... atleast you don't need to buy crazy duals."
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
The problem is that if there's no agreement in your group on what constitutes a fair deck, it's difficult to build a deck for that group.
And it's starting to drift off-topic, but just so you hear it once: I like Modern. The banned list makes sense if you played pre-banning, and Gavin Verhey has a better breakdown than I can give here.
I'm also sorry; this is empirically false. I mean if you want to argue it as, "Anyone who plays magic was a potential Modern Player, and a non-zero number of them were turned off by the banned list," then ok. But if you look at tournament attendance (like Grand Prixs, Trials, PTQs, whatever), or MTGO stuff like Daily Events, Modern has been thriving since the Post-Philly bannings.
There are a LOT of people, myself included, who were really excited for modern as a format until we saw what direction Wizards was going with it. The banlist looks like someone took every deck that was ever good in standard since Mirrodin/Kamigawa and put their two best cards on a dart board. It's plain as day that whoever was in charge of it didn't know jack about what they were doing, and that turned a lot of people off of getting involved with it.
Sure, it's thriving right now because Standard has been terrible for the past couple years, Extended got the axe when they cut its size in half, and Legacy and Vintage have a huge barrier to entry, but it isn't nearly as big as it could have been had it been handled properly. Once Wizards gets their head on straight and starts making Standard an actually healthy format Modern's popularity will drop like a lead airplane.
I will absolutely not stand for the same thing happening to EDH, and if it begins to start turning in that direction I will do everything I can and be as vocal as I can to get it stopped.
The problem is that if there's no agreement in your group on what constitutes a fair deck, it's difficult to build a deck for that group.
I totally get where you're coming from, and you're one of the few people making a legitimate argument for banning Hermit Druid. Your friend who abuses it every few games in an otherwise-normal Mimeoplasm shell is much more convincing to me than the people who bring their $1000 optimized decklist down to a GP to thrash people.
(Not disparaging expensive decks in general, by the way. I get a lot of joy out of slowly improving/pimping my decks over time, and the decks I've had the longest have gotten quite pricey over the years.)
However, I don't think a banlist can solve that sort of social consensus problem. For example, I don't like playing against Armageddon/Jokulhaups effects. Most of my friends feel similarly and avoid them entirely, and when playing with strangers I will just politely ask that they avoid them when possible. Sometimes they're unwilling to compromise and I have to suck it up, but it can decrease my enjoyment of the game.
Adding every single mass-land-destruction card to the banned list is not the way to solve this problem.
I dislike Modern because it was mismanaged and there is nothing to suggest that it will not continue being so. I'm not going to invest heavily into a format only to find that half the cards in my decks are no longer legal because the team in charge of bans is off their rocker.
Standard is bad because Wizards keeps printing dumb cards like Bitterblossom, Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, Batterskull, and Delver that turn the format into "Best Deck", "Deck that counters Best Deck", and "Dumb Red Deck" as 95% of everything that is played. It's been like that since Faeries, got even worse with Jund, and hasn't really changed since then. It's a stale, boring format that has very little going for it and hasn't been diverse in years.
Banning or not banning Hermit Druid doesn't have anything to do with those specifically, it's the mindset of "ban lots of cards" that would make EDH more like Modern in its failings.
It's sort of an "each one, reach one" problem. I can break down Hermit Druid guy (and for the record, he does have other decks), but it's much more difficult for him to be happy playing another deck when there's still RUG Palinchron Combo guy and Ad Nauseum Combo guy and so on. It would be a lot easier if we could just call a spade a spade, and ban some of the obvious broken cards that have little or no redeeming value.
Again, mass LD is in a similar position. I'm not expecting (or even asking) that every iteration of Jokulhaups get banned... but is anyone truly arguing that Armageddon/Ravages of War are fun things to have happen? Would anyone rage quit because they just dropped $250 on Ravages for their Hokori Stax deck the day before it was banned? If that guy did quit, would anyone miss him?
I guess I don't really buy into the slippery-slope style argument that because it's impossible to ban everything, nothing should be banned. Especially in the case of Hermit Druid, which doesn't really have functional reprints.
Yeah. He was used for combo from his very birth. That's honestly the only reason I don't support a ban, that's all he's used for. Players intend to use him for mana. He's not accidental, if you run him, you intend to break him and go infinite.
Ironically, the first Commander deck I built way back when used him as a big beater, since he was pretty much the best option at the time. I had no way to go infinite without other people helping (which did happen, twice).
Standard is bad because Wizards keeps printing dumb cards like Bitterblossom, Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, Batterskull, and Delver that turn the format into "Best Deck", "Deck that counters Best Deck", and "Dumb Red Deck" as 95% of everything that is played. It's been like that since Faeries, got even worse with Jund, and hasn't really changed since then. It's a stale, boring format that has very little going for it and hasn't been diverse in years.
It was like that long before Faeries. Standards that don't fall into this description are rarer than Standards that do for all of Magic history. The main difference now is that with the number of players playing and the number of tournaments to refine things, Standard gets "solved" much faster now.
Better than those days of "Best Deck" and "Best Deck". Black Summer. Trix. Etc.
It's sort of an "each one, reach one" problem. I can break down Hermit Druid guy (and for the record, he does have other decks), but it's much more difficult for him to be happy playing another deck when there's still RUG Palinchron Combo guy and Ad Nauseum Combo guy and so on. It would be a lot easier if we could just call a spade a spade, and ban some of the obvious broken cards that have little or no redeeming value.
I'm a little confused by your situation. It sounds like you have a set of people who like to play ludicrously broken decks and a set of people who like to play 'funner' stuff. Why aren't they just playing the other people with the same bent? It doesn't sound like this is a tournament or anything, so I'm not sure what it is that is forcing you to be playing this particular format with these particular people.
I guess I don't really buy into the slippery-slope style argument that because it's impossible to ban everything, nothing should be banned. Especially in the case of Hermit Druid, which doesn't really have functional reprints.
The fact that Hermit Druid doesn't have functional reprints is irrelevant, though. The players playing it aren't playing it because it's the way they want to win, they're playing it because it's the most efficient way to win. The functional reprint for Hermit Druid is Ad Nauseum. The functional reprint for that is something else that will still be totally unpleasant to play against. That's the slippery slope.
Palinchron would be the definition of accidentally degenerate if it were ever actually used accidentally.
The card breathes combos. Any mana doubler combos with Palinchron. Any land that produces large amounts of mana combos with Palinchron. Deadeye Navigator combos with Palinchron. All of these are fun cards that are played in the format often. The only reason why Palinchron isn't really accidentally degenerate is that it's old and few players have it, and it's obvious that it's meant to be used for combos, so people who use it are intending to go infinite.
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I gotta agree with this. I run him in Animar (big surprise, right?) but I still support banning him. Like Druid, he doesn't get included unless you have a way to go infinite and an X dump, but damn if he isn't a boring "Herp and derp for infinity mana, cast Comet Storm" win. I know we just got Druid poll, but I wouldn't mind seeing a Pally poll next.
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I agree with this.
I voted "No." I'd really prefer to see Hermit Druid stay around the format.
Suck up
Joking aside, I agree. While I may not always see eye to eye with the decisions the RC make (still pissed Griselbrand got banned, especially since he's no different than Hermit Druid in his role, and the banning of Sundering Titan was far too late and at a point where it was actually a bad decision thanks to cards like Prime Time), and will likely not agree with future decisions they make, but they do a lot of work and testing to try and make the format as fun as they can and to appeal to the most number of players as they can.
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What? No, palinchron isn't accidentally broken, he is broken and is made to be abused. He's not a fun card that people use, he is used for the expressed purpose of comboing. There is nothing accidental about it. He's been used for that since high tide was printed.
But High Tide came out first?
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Yeah. He was used for combo from his very birth. That's honestly the only reason I don't support a ban, that's all he's used for. Players intend to use him for mana. He's not accidental, if you run him, you intend to break him and go infinite.
Palinchron is so broken he was broken before he was even printed.
I'll have you know I've used Palinchron as sac fodder for Grimgrin or a quick blocker from time to time.
No, really I have.
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It's because Griselbrand isn't broken just because he's a combo enabler. He's the best repeatable draw ever printed, on a big dude with relevant abilities. The draw helps ANYTHING start winning, whether it be a controllish strategy to swarm aggro to combo to anything else. He's arguably the best card ever printed for this format, and that's seriously saying something.
Sundering Titan I agree with you with, especially the bit about Prime Time.
As far as the RC goes... I used to intensely dislike a lot of their reasoning and decision making, especially some of the things Sheldon said, but they've changed and I've changed to understand the format in a different light. The next few months will change that opinion for the better or for the worse, I imagine.
Here's the deal...
I only play cards in person, and my options for which people I have available to play with is limited (yes I live in bumble**** nowhere; no, I don't have a collection on MTGO). And unfortunately, my friends and the LGS are split between a "normal" casual EDH mindset, and a "EDH is the new Vintage" mindset. There's no way to negotiate what the format should look like (there are local judges and store employees on both sides of the argument, and the store management is unlikely to make a decision that will drive off one group). So until something changes, the semi-official banned list is the law of the land.
Hermit Druid hits a sore spot, since one of my friends has a Hermit Druid + Necrotic Ooze combo deck with The Mimeoplasm as the commander. Unlike what several previous posters have argued, you do not "have to dedicate your entire deck." The Necrotic Ooze combo is good by itself, and the rest of the deck functions pretty much like any other BUG combo-control build; the only difference is that it has a combo enabler (ie, Hermit Druid) that lets it win on turn 2. So even if you stop the Druid, the deck can still win a fair game.
I've been playing EDH on paper for about 4 years up and down the East Coast; in that time, I have not played against a deck with Hermit Druid doing anything fun or fair. If there are players running it just for the dredge, it seems like it'd be easy to replace with actual dredge cards that don't have the insta-win.
Also, I recognize that the rules committee cannot ban EVERY broken combo, but as far as I can see from my other experience, or reading/listening to the experience of others, there's a short list of cards (Hermit Druid among them) that just exist to grief. For the record, I do not favor unbanning Kokusho, and I support banning Ad Nauseum, Palinchron, and Mind of Matter. Instead of hearing "These cards are banned; local groups can ban more as necessary," I would like to hear "These (significant number) of cards are banned; local groups can unban as necessary."
Sorry to write y'all a novel; I'll go back to lurking.
If you view the format as "haters gonna hate" and consign yourself to the fact that the guy who's going to win on turn 4 with Hermit Druid combo would do it with Ad Nauseam or something else if HD was not available, then Hermit Druid is PROBABLY okay. Self-regulation and all that.
If you view the format as something that is played with some degree of competitive spirit to it, then Hermit Druid almost certainly needs to be banned.
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Palinchron is only the go to illusion, because he bounces himself, but the other 3 are just as capable of going infinite mana with support. And other than Cloud of Faeries all are 'two card combos' with Deadeye Navigator.
Regardless, infinite mana is not actually a win condition, it merely facilitates other win conditions.
I'm sorry to say this, but your outlook on how the format should handle banning is not going to be good for its health at all. Restrictive banlists tend to chase off new players and stifle a format's potential. Just look at Modern, where they went on a crazy banning spree and lost a huge chunk of potential players as a result.
The official, true banlist needs to be as small as is reasonable with the firm suggestion that anyone interested in organizing tournaments add to it and make their own list for said tournaments.
EDH is a casual, social format; cards and decks that get too powerful within playgroups will be self regulated within the group. It was not created with the intention of being played competitively, and while that style of play does exist it should not be its focus. As such, the ban list and any other rules or restrictions should be based around that with further steps being taken only within their appropriate contexts, i.e. tournament play.
It is a LOT easier, simpler, and overall better to have a small banlist with the caveat "ADD TO THIS IF PLAYING COMPETITIVELY" rather than having a large one and expecting people to remove from it. Most players take the banlist as absolute law, and won't understand or accept the idea of changing it if they aren't "playing to win at all costs".
I'm also sorry; this is empirically false. I mean if you want to argue it as, "Anyone who plays magic was a potential Modern Player, and a non-zero number of them were turned off by the banned list," then ok. But if you look at tournament attendance (like Grand Prixs, Trials, PTQs, whatever), or MTGO stuff like Daily Events, Modern has been thriving since the Post-Philly bannings.
I should also clarify that I'm not talking about organizing events or tournaments. I specifically mean that in my local meta, we are unable to reach an agreement on how the game should be played, and as such, we cannot regulate players who think Ad Nauseum or Worldfire are acceptable cards.
For me personally, this means I'm likely to quit EDH and take up Modern and Legacy (there are weekly events for these around here; I'm pretty sure the high number of eternal sharks is why it's hard getting casual EDH to work). If I'm going to play with or against combo, it might as well be in formats where everyone's on the same page about it.
Nailed it on the head. At the end of the day, if you want this to be competitive, a lot of cards will be banned to attempt balance. In EDH balance is achieved by building to your play group. Once you build decks with that in mind, you can avoid a lot of bad games.
I have never heard a good thing about modern as a format. I'm not even kidding, not once. Regardless of it's popularity, even the modern players I talked to said it best "it's really a joke format with a crazy banlist... but hey... atleast you don't need to buy crazy duals."
And it's starting to drift off-topic, but just so you hear it once: I like Modern. The banned list makes sense if you played pre-banning, and Gavin Verhey has a better breakdown than I can give here.
There are a LOT of people, myself included, who were really excited for modern as a format until we saw what direction Wizards was going with it. The banlist looks like someone took every deck that was ever good in standard since Mirrodin/Kamigawa and put their two best cards on a dart board. It's plain as day that whoever was in charge of it didn't know jack about what they were doing, and that turned a lot of people off of getting involved with it.
Sure, it's thriving right now because Standard has been terrible for the past couple years, Extended got the axe when they cut its size in half, and Legacy and Vintage have a huge barrier to entry, but it isn't nearly as big as it could have been had it been handled properly. Once Wizards gets their head on straight and starts making Standard an actually healthy format Modern's popularity will drop like a lead airplane.
I will absolutely not stand for the same thing happening to EDH, and if it begins to start turning in that direction I will do everything I can and be as vocal as I can to get it stopped.
If Hermit Druid were banned, would it make EDH more like Standard or Modern?
I totally get where you're coming from, and you're one of the few people making a legitimate argument for banning Hermit Druid. Your friend who abuses it every few games in an otherwise-normal Mimeoplasm shell is much more convincing to me than the people who bring their $1000 optimized decklist down to a GP to thrash people.
(Not disparaging expensive decks in general, by the way. I get a lot of joy out of slowly improving/pimping my decks over time, and the decks I've had the longest have gotten quite pricey over the years.)
However, I don't think a banlist can solve that sort of social consensus problem. For example, I don't like playing against Armageddon/Jokulhaups effects. Most of my friends feel similarly and avoid them entirely, and when playing with strangers I will just politely ask that they avoid them when possible. Sometimes they're unwilling to compromise and I have to suck it up, but it can decrease my enjoyment of the game.
Adding every single mass-land-destruction card to the banned list is not the way to solve this problem.
Standard is bad because Wizards keeps printing dumb cards like Bitterblossom, Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, Batterskull, and Delver that turn the format into "Best Deck", "Deck that counters Best Deck", and "Dumb Red Deck" as 95% of everything that is played. It's been like that since Faeries, got even worse with Jund, and hasn't really changed since then. It's a stale, boring format that has very little going for it and hasn't been diverse in years.
Banning or not banning Hermit Druid doesn't have anything to do with those specifically, it's the mindset of "ban lots of cards" that would make EDH more like Modern in its failings.
Again, mass LD is in a similar position. I'm not expecting (or even asking) that every iteration of Jokulhaups get banned... but is anyone truly arguing that Armageddon/Ravages of War are fun things to have happen? Would anyone rage quit because they just dropped $250 on Ravages for their Hokori Stax deck the day before it was banned? If that guy did quit, would anyone miss him?
I guess I don't really buy into the slippery-slope style argument that because it's impossible to ban everything, nothing should be banned. Especially in the case of Hermit Druid, which doesn't really have functional reprints.
P.S. As far as Modern popularity goes, the Modern area of this site is doing well. There's actually a thread with this exact topic.
Ironically, the first Commander deck I built way back when used him as a big beater, since he was pretty much the best option at the time. I had no way to go infinite without other people helping (which did happen, twice).
It was like that long before Faeries. Standards that don't fall into this description are rarer than Standards that do for all of Magic history. The main difference now is that with the number of players playing and the number of tournaments to refine things, Standard gets "solved" much faster now.
Better than those days of "Best Deck" and "Best Deck". Black Summer. Trix. Etc.
I'm a little confused by your situation. It sounds like you have a set of people who like to play ludicrously broken decks and a set of people who like to play 'funner' stuff. Why aren't they just playing the other people with the same bent? It doesn't sound like this is a tournament or anything, so I'm not sure what it is that is forcing you to be playing this particular format with these particular people.
The fact that Hermit Druid doesn't have functional reprints is irrelevant, though. The players playing it aren't playing it because it's the way they want to win, they're playing it because it's the most efficient way to win. The functional reprint for Hermit Druid is Ad Nauseum. The functional reprint for that is something else that will still be totally unpleasant to play against. That's the slippery slope.