I voted yes, because it just breeds broken strategies. I could probably go on for a good page as why but long story short... yes I would ban Hermit Druid and Ad Nauseam given the chance.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Honestly, I feel Azusa, Lost but Seeking should be banned. I mean, when you can get a fairly easy turn three Terastodon consistently, something is broken. Genesis Wave on turn 4 for 12 permanents twice yesterday, a lot of EDH decks are just getting started on turn four. EDH isn't standard, it's not a format that was intended to have games that last ten minutes consistently. It's supposed to be the format where we get to play with all of those cards that we couldn't in other formats. Azusa saps a lot of the fun from the format. I know a ton of you are playing it now, so I know it wouldn't be a popular ban choice, but I'd love to see a poll go up about it.
While I completely understand that some people don't want to play EDH competitively, and that it should be a "just for fun Gentleman's Format", there will always be some people that enjoy building highly competitive EDH decks. Or at least like to have one sitting around in case someone else busts out a competitive deck. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I mean, why is Time Sieve not up for debate? The only reason you play it is if you're rocking Sharuum and like taking infinite turns. I mean, hell, you can still play Sharuum, and that deck is combo central. But Kokusho felt the EDH banhammer? WTF?
Banning Hermit Druid makes me think that someone who wanted to play casual EDH sat down with a guy rocking Hermit Druid, got butthurt when the casual deck got stomped on T5 by Hermit Druid guy, and has since decided that the card is too busted. Look, unless you got Druid in your opener, you need to tutor for him during your first few turns. While you're tutoring, everyone else is setting up. Let's say you're in BUG colors. This means that the tutors that can search him up are Imperial Seal (which few people have), Demonic, and Vampiric. Maybe you're playing Worldly or GSZ. If you cast Demonic, you're playing Druid on T3, summoning sick, and won't get to activate him till turn 4. If you played Vampiric or Seal on T1, the Druid doesn't come online till T3. My point is this: Hermit Druid is a 2-2.5 card investment that can pretty easily just be bolted. Or countered. Or hit with Swords. Or path. Or doom blade. Or even capsized. There's a lot of ways several of your opponents have to answer druid, even if he's in your opener. I mean, unless you got a godhand of mana crypt, druid, land, greaves, your opponents get a chance to answer him. And if they do, you get 2 for one'd. And unless you opened up with a tutor or druid, they don't have to worry about it.
Is he strong when you deck is built to abuse him and you can play him early? Sure. But I don't think enough people build decks that hinge heavily on the playing and survival of Hermit Druid for a ban to impact the environment. All the Hermit Druid players are going to do is drop green, add white, and play Sharuum.
Emrakul got banned because it turned the format into "Who gets out Emrakul first, and can we deal with it? Emrakul just went in every deck." Hermit Druid requires you to build around him, play green, and is MUCH easier to answer if you do cast him. Just because a card is powerful if built around doesn't necessarily mean it should be banned, otherwise the ban list is going to start looking a LOT longer.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
While I completely understand that some people don't want to play EDH competitively, and that it should be a "just for fun Gentleman's Format", there will always be some people that enjoy building highly competitive EDH decks. Or at least like to have one sitting around in case someone else busts out a competitive deck. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I mean, why is Time Sieve not up for debate? The only reason you play it is if you're rocking Sharuum and like taking infinite turns. I mean, hell, you can still play Sharuum, and that deck is combo central. But Kokusho felt the EDH banhammer? WTF?
Banning Hermit Druid makes me think that someone who wanted to play casual EDH sat down with a guy rocking Hermit Druid, got butthurt when the casual deck got stomped on T5 by Hermit Druid guy, and has since decided that the card is too busted. Look, unless you got Druid in your opener, you need to tutor for him during your first few turns. While you're tutoring, everyone else is setting up. Let's say you're in BUG colors. This means that the tutors that can search him up are Imperial Seal (which few people have), Demonic, and Vampiric. Maybe you're playing Worldly or GSZ. If you cast Demonic, you're playing Druid on T3, summoning sick, and won't get to activate him till turn 4. If you played Vampiric or Seal on T1, the Druid doesn't come online till T3. My point is this: Hermit Druid is a 2-2.5 card investment that can pretty easily just be bolted. Or countered. Or hit with Swords. Or path. Or doom blade. Or even capsized. There's a lot of ways several of your opponents have to answer druid, even if he's in your opener. I mean, unless you got a godhand of mana crypt, druid, land, greaves, your opponents get a chance to answer him. And if they do, you get 2 for one'd. And unless you opened up with a tutor or druid, they don't have to worry about it.
Is he strong when you deck is built to abuse him and you can play him early? Sure. But I don't think enough people build decks that hinge heavily on the playing and survival of Hermit Druid for a ban to impact the environment. All the Hermit Druid players are going to do is drop green, add white, and play Sharuum.
Emrakul got banned because it turned the format into "Who gets out Emrakul first, and can we deal with it? Emrakul just went in every deck." Hermit Druid requires you to build around him, play green, and is MUCH easier to answer if you do cast him. Just because a card is powerful if built around doesn't necessarily mean it should be banned, otherwise the ban list is going to start looking a LOT longer.
Ehhh I wanted to clarify a few things here:
1) Sharrum has too many ways to go off... If you were to ban the combo pieces he has you would be banning several cards or banning him as a commander instead. There are two ways to infinite clone him with another lots of ways to infinite kill everyone one you set that up. Taking apart Sharrum combo would likely involve outright banning him as a commander because the other option would be to ban like... 4 cards minimum. Without doing one or the other you wont be improving anything here.
2) Hermit Druid - The broken decks that use him as their combo piece use a lot more tutors than you mentioned. Utilizing partial parris mulligans you have the potential to dig very very far into your deck from an opening hand. This means that between the approximately 8-10 or so tutors + Hermit Druid himself it becomes very very likely to open with him.
There is a matter of considering how many cards would be needed to ban to take something out of the loop. Hermit Druid is extremely more powerful but by all means stoppable. Shruum tends to be considered more of the robust combo than the fast combo of the format.
So why isn't Sharuum banned as a general then? She's much more resilient and doesn't just lose to grave hate. Hermit druid may be faster, and thanks to mulls and numerous tutors as you say may make her a little more reliable to pull early game, but he's still far too easy to answer in comparison to the 800 different ways sharuum can win. I don't get why you say hermit druid is not stoppable. Druid has the most fragile body a card in magic can have and dies to just about anything that wants to kill it. Only when coupled with greaves or similar does it become much more dangerous. On top of the fragile body,the card is also susceptible to grave hate, wherein not only does the druid player falter, they often flat out lose if their entire deck just got exiled, so a tormod's crypt or relic of progenitus on the board is a difficult card to play around.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Why isn't Imperial Seal banned? If the five Moxen are banned because of price, so should Imperial Seal, which is now commanding a price 500 upwards. Pun intended, heh.
Pretty much the only reason I can think of that they would EVER need to be/stay banned is because a five-colored general playing all five Moxen would have massive mana advantage. And by massive, I really mean minor unless you get a ridiculously luck hand with multiple Moxen. If someone wants to break the format, they can probably do so without spending an additional $2000+ on five artifacts. And if someone is going to do that, they're probably in the format for the wrong reasons anyways and will probably achieve their goal without the aid of a few pieces of mana acceleration.
With hermit, its just really fast so by the time most decks will have him out and online, creature based spot removal is the only option and they could potentially still counter that option with a number of things.
Overall though, the RC doesn't intend to ban cards based upon what is competitive or ban things due to other bannings that were made. In general, the moxes were banned in the first place because they belong in every single deck. Imperial Seal has a lot of duplicate cards that do the same thing and even better which is funny. It is not banned because power wise... it isnt anything that doesn't already exist. It is just damn hard to find a copy of. Moxes on the other hand are not duplicated outside of their cycle. Power wise they are off the charts right there with Sol Ring and I don't want to see people jamming 3 more copies of Sol Ring into their decks...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
And Undone, we've gone back and forth about CV before, and I will concede that technically, it's not a one card combo, but you're stubborn or ignorant if you think that it can be compared to T&N, let alone Hulk or Druid. It's impossible to not have the win condition for CV (unless you run zero basics AND zero shocks/ABU duals). T&N is the closest comparison but you still have to consciously choose to include the combo creatures.
Except for trisk/mikeaus (both very good in for example mimoplasm) kiki/conscripts (Which by the admission of 90% of people taking the kiki poll is a problem because even if they don't get them they feel like TnN is holding back making the game pointless.) You are correct it is impossible to have a victory condition for that card however, saying "You can't stop combo from being combo" is blatantly false as this format nearly does that needing only 3-5 more bans to remove nearly all high end combo decks (IE turns 2-5)
Look, I've said it before and I'll say it again, a dedicated Druid deck is very hard to beat. But every single one of you who says it should be banned are a hypocrite if you want to ban Druid and remove Koko, Servant, Staff, or anything else that has combo potential. Druid is by far one of the hardest combo cards that you have to build around.
First of all Koko isn't a combo creature and is not in the same league as the rest of those however I care very little for the dragon either way. I am not a hypocrite because I want to KEEP those cards banned and add just a few more (druid, oath, adnauseam, power artifact, and possibly TnN) that create stale boring deck building and are either absurdly undercosted or absurdly compact in addition to being resilient. They are simply too fast and need a ban.
EDIT:
I voted no. Feel free to spend too much money to build the most uninteresting and boring deck ever that looses to a .25 cent card.
The deck virtually ignores removal as you can shallow grave and not even pass priority till the activation is used.
Why isn't Imperial Seal banned? If the five Moxen are banned because of price, so should Imperial Seal, which is now commanding a price 500 upwards. Pun intended, heh.
Power level, seal is strictly worse than available tutors so unless you ban vamp it makes no sense. Moxen are the best of the best excluding mana vault.
Hermit Druid is only degenerate if you spend $1000 building a deck designed to destroy faces. At that point you're so far away from the intent of the format that no banned list will bring you back.
Many, many players already own the cards (barring the couple portal spells) just from playing legacy. This argument has been used at least four times now it has been as bad as it is now each time.
First of all Koko isn't a combo creature and is not in the same league as the rest of those however I care very little for the dragon either way. I am not a hypocrite because I want to KEEP those cards banned and add just a few more (druid, oath, adnauseam, power artifact, and possibly TnN) that create stale boring deck building and are either absurdly undercosted or absurdly compact in addition to being resilient. They are simply too fast and need a ban.
Reread what I said. I wasn't calling you a hypocrite. I was calling all the people who vote to ban Druid but want to UNBAN cards I cited (and others like them).
Reread what I said. I wasn't calling you a hypocrite. I was calling all the people who vote to ban Druid but want to UNBAN cards I cited (and others like them).
Fair enough, and I can respect the opposite point of view (Don't ban anything besides the obvious suspects, mox/ancestral/biorythem/exct) The problem I have with the banned list is it goes half way to making the format not degenerate but refuses to go the last 5 feet to cross the finish line.
Fair enough, and I can respect the opposite point of view (Don't ban anything besides the obvious suspects, mox/ancestral/biorythem/exct) The problem I have with the banned list is it goes half way to making the format not degenerate but refuses to go the last 5 feet to cross the finish line.
I feel the same way more or less, but right now I'm not foaming at the mouth like some people are. I'll wait to see what the RC says in a few weeks with the updated list and philosophy. After that, I may grab my pitchfork, but we'll see. The biggest hurdle the RC has to jump is getting people to understand what environment they're trying to foster, and make a list that clearly reflects that.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to dedicate your whole deck to the combo when playing Hermit Druid? If that's the case, I don't see a reason for banning him.
No, you just have to have the mana base and a reanimation spell, to make him CONSISTENTLY broken you need to dedicate your deck. In an average deck reanimating necrotic ooze is frequently lethal unless you intentionally avoid putting cards in your deck (which are quite good on their own) that you very easily might include.
I feel the same way more or less, but right now I'm not foaming at the mouth like some people are. I'll wait to see what the RC says in a few weeks with the updated list and philosophy. After that, I may grab my pitchfork, but we'll see. The biggest hurdle the RC has to jump is getting people to understand what environment they're trying to foster, and make a list that clearly reflects that.
Seems reasonable to me, the only reason it frustrates me me right now is the inconsistency "The banned list isn't about stopping combo" <Insert 1/3rd the banned list> is frustrating to people who say "It isn't about combo."
By my understanding, you have to build at least most of the deck around that combo. Plus, it's stupid expensive (or likely to be).
Finally, isn't this a damned social format? If someone shows up with the deck at your LGS, you can more or less say "Eff that deck, it's not fun to play against. I realize that you may like to combo, and that's fine, but give the rest of us a chance. You already have a *****in' mana base, just build something else, it'll run really smoothly." Online is more of a problem, but I s'pose that you could be slightly jerk-ish and just boot the player that does that, ignoring that he was ever in the game, or something.
^ And that social format thing is coming from someone with a stutter. Jebus, man up, peeps...
Please, someone spell out the Druid combo for me. Because, honestly, all I see is a cheap dude that's one of the most broken enablers for existing combos. On his own, he has just enough synergy with a gy strategy that people use him legitimately, but have to mold a deck around him to break him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he shouldn't be banned because:
1. He's not a combo card. He's an enabler of a combo that normally would 3+ cards without him (and with him a lot more because now you have to strip out the basic lands and add recursion).
2. The meta hasn't warped around him. People run a lot more gy hate, but that's because WBG reanimator has gotten bigger overall (thank you, Karador).
3. Games don't revolve around him. Yes, he needs to be dealt with when he hits the board, but so do a whole slew of creatures. But how many games can you count where someone other than the Druid player Cloned it, kicked a Rite on it, or snagged it from a graveyard? Zero.
4. In order to build a deck that is as destructive as some of you are ranting about (and yes, I've played against it), you have to build your ENTIRE deck around getting Druid out turn 2/3. If someone has that kind of determination and money, they'll do it with or without Druid.
5. He has to intentionally be used. A player doesn't tap him and go, "whoops, I accidentally put half my deck in my graveyard".
6. Players still have time to respond. Yes, the whole "just play removal" argument is weak. So my point isn't so much that there are multiple answers that can be played turn 1, but that the combo has to pass priority, allowing players to respond.
Check out khymeras post in French section was the top tier 1v1 Combi deck until they banned hermit Druid. Lots of post on how it works how to protect it etc. he built the deck so that once you
Mill yourself you not only win but have answered to well answers. He stopped developing it with its ban in French but it's pretty solid and normally net decked to stomp side events etc.
Check out khymeras post in French section was the top tier 1v1 Combi deck until they banned hermit Druid. Lots of post on how it works how to protect it etc. he built the deck so that once you
Mill yourself you not only win but have answered to well answers. He stopped developing it with its ban in French but it's pretty solid and normally net decked to stomp side events etc.
First off, we're not talking about 1v1. Naturally that deck will be more consistent when you only have to worry about one person (rather than three) having disruption. Secondly, how can you honestly look at that deck and think it is representative of the majority of EDH decks. That deck, and others like it, fall in the 1% of decks which blatantly make NO EFFORT WHATSOEVER to conform to even the loosest definition of social gaming. When it comes to banning a card, citing a deck like that will be ignored every single time.
Secondly, your argument every single time Druid gets brought up is "look at this dudes deck. It is teh best deck evar!" How about refuting one of the myriad of reasons why HD shouldn't be banned? So far the closest you've come is that reading through that decklist, I see that there is supposedly a way to recover from someone popping a Nihil Spellbomb while Narcomoeba is on the stack.
Naw. Hermit Druid is like any other combo. If you can stop it, yay. If you can't, then the combo works. It's not crazy on it's own and doesn't do absurd stuff to the board.
Yeah, it's annoying when it goes off really early, but other combos similarly come out of nowhere to win, too. And you can't just ban away an entire play-style archetype.
I do t claim to play casually every time I ever see hermit Druid it is that exact deck. I play online I play at multiple local shops I've never met the casual players you guys talk about. If I see azami sitting across from me u can tell you 70 or more cards in that players deck without ever seeing it. And ad I've said before I think we should be banning based on the most compeitive possible decks becuase I guess these casual players that I saw 2-4 years ago play with you now because if someone uses hermit Druid at my table they always intend to win on turn 3. Of the 30+ people I locally play with none if them owns decks that can't potentially at least lock a game out by turn 6-7 the game has changed you and the rc don't like it and want to stop it but you can't make people play fair you can make them follow a banlist. The deck was too good for 1v1 so they banned it it's now a multi only deck. No bs I think the ban list is doomed to fail if it leans on any social contract becuase if it no a rule people won't follow it. IMO the banlist should ban top tier cards based on the best decklist that can use them I know it's not the philosophy but I think the philosophy has not stood the test of time and leaves me wanting. Hermit Druid is a dirtbag card that warps every compeitive / semi compeitive group that had the money to play him. Bottom line is the rc only cares about super casual
Players has nothing to do with social aspect IMO I play Combi decks we socialize all the time. I'm not going to make up stats or claim I know what the average meta us even though alot if people here do but in my experience casual play in edh us non existent. Think we should ban compeitivly. I think in a cometive ban list hermit druid is too fast and broken as hell. I hate the can be used fairly or most people use thus fairly crap be user not one if you had any real statistics and it's all speculation u can make that argument for almost any card....
1. He's not a combo card. He's an enabler of a combo that normally would 3+ cards without him (and with him a lot more because now you have to strip out the basic lands and add recursion).
I am not even sure how to respond to this...
Grisselbanned isn't a combo either, he is just a 1 card enabler that wins the game.
Yawgmoths bargain isn't a combo either, its just a 1 card enabler that wins the game.
Calling an "Enabler" not the combo is simply wrong as without it the 'combo' is pretty fair. The 'enabler' if it is just 1 card is essentially a 1 card combo.
5. He has to intentionally be used. A player doesn't tap him and go, "whoops, I accidentally put half my deck in my graveyard".
Same for hulk.
Secondly, your argument every single time Druid gets brought up is "look at this dudes deck. It is teh best deck evar!" How about refuting one of the myriad of reasons why HD shouldn't be banned? So far the closest you've come is that reading through that decklist, I see that there is supposedly a way to recover from someone popping a Nihil Spellbomb while Narcomoeba is on the stack.
How about the mental capacity to cast abeyance, grudge, or stifle it instead of running into the on board answer like a goldfish. That requires roughly the mental capacity equivalent to not casting a brainstorm while chalice of the void is at 1.
Saying the deck loses to graveyard hate or removal is like saying storm loses to force of will, any good storm player will laugh at you and then crush you. Having played the deck it feels like dredge sometimes (you will just run it out there get answered twice and still just win) but more often it just feels like you are going to either turbo steam roll them or make them have 10 consecutive answers.
Power level, seal is strictly worse than available tutors so unless you ban vamp it makes no sense. Moxen are the best of the best excluding mana vault.
Most experienced players will agree that Sol Ring is much stronger than the Moxen, allowing for things like turn 2 Natural Order and other such spells. Moxen are strong because of the inclusion of all five into 60-card decks in Vintage. So, by your logic, it doesn't make sense to ban the Moxen unless Sol Ring is banned.
I feel the same way more or less, but right now I'm not foaming at the mouth like some people are. I'll wait to see what the RC says in a few weeks with the updated list and philosophy. After that, I may grab my pitchfork, but we'll see. The biggest hurdle the RC has to jump is getting people to understand what environment they're trying to foster, and make a list that clearly reflects that.
I think there's been a huge overreaction to Sheldon saying that we're updating the philosophy pages, and it's just setting people up for disappointment. We're simply going to write more on the idea of social gaming and that building decks focused on winning at all costs is outside the spirit of mainstream Commander (but if you have a group that enjoys that, knock yourself out; sounds miserable to me). The philosophy itself isn't going to change notably from what we've been talking about here and elsewhere.
Hermit Druid is completely broken if you want to make it so. So we ban it. All the players playing it flock to the next-best broken thing. We ban that. They flock to the next broken thing. There's no amount of banning that can make their decks fun for the splashy-effects-and-tribal-synergies social crowd that is the bread and butter of the format. It's not like these people are being creative or interesting - they're simply copying the thing that lets them win off the net.
As a "most broken card" goes, Hermit Druid is pretty good - it's not terribly griefy, it's fun when you're not actively trying to break it in half, and it's not going to accidentally wreck games played in the appropriate spirit, while still providing an interesting effect.
I think there's been a huge overreaction to Sheldon saying that we're updating the philosophy pages, and it's just setting people up for disappointment. We're simply going to write more on the idea of social gaming and that building decks focused on winning at all costs is outside the spirit of mainstream Commander (but if you have a group that enjoys that, knock yourself out; sounds miserable to me). The philosophy itself isn't going to change notably from what we've been talking about here and elsewhere.
Hermit Druid is completely broken if you want to make it so. So we ban it. All the players playing it flock to the next-best broken thing. We ban that. They flock to the next broken thing. There's no amount of banning that can make their decks fun for the splashy-effects-and-tribal-synergies social crowd that is the bread and butter of the format. It's not like these people are being creative or interesting - they're simply copying the thing that lets them win off the net.
As a "most broken card" goes, Hermit Druid is pretty good - it's not terribly griefy, it's fun when you're not actively trying to break it in half, and it's not going to accidentally wreck games played in the appropriate spirit, while still providing an interesting effect.
I love you so much! Can you just put that on the EDH page with X instead of hermit druid? Please? Can you please just slap everyone who complains about kiki jiki and palinchron with this?
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Most experienced players will agree that Sol Ring is much stronger than the Moxen, allowing for things like turn 2 Natural Order and other such spells. Moxen are strong because of the inclusion of all five into 60-card decks in Vintage. So, by your logic, it doesn't make sense to ban the Moxen unless Sol Ring is banned.
That's the thing, sol ring and crypt (far better than ring) should be banned to foster a more normal format, and the inconsistency with the list is aggravating.
I think there's been a huge overreaction to Sheldon saying that we're updating the philosophy pages, and it's just setting people up for disappointment. We're simply going to write more on the idea of social gaming and that building decks focused on winning at all costs is outside the spirit of mainstream Commander (but if you have a group that enjoys that, knock yourself out; sounds miserable to me). The philosophy itself isn't going to change notably from what we've been talking about here and elsewhere.
Hermit Druid is completely broken if you want to make it so. So we ban it. All the players playing it flock to the next-best broken thing. We ban that. They flock to the next broken thing. There's no amount of banning that can make their decks fun for the splashy-effects-and-tribal-synergies social crowd that is the bread and butter of the format. It's not like these people are being creative or interesting - they're simply copying the thing that lets them win off the net.
As a "most broken card" goes, Hermit Druid is pretty good - it's not terribly griefy, it's fun when you're not actively trying to break it in half, and it's not going to accidentally wreck games played in the appropriate spirit, while still providing an interesting effect.
I'm fine with that. I honestly don't know what to expect in a few weeks other than the banned announcements. I was assuming that your clarification on the philosophy would address some of the ongoing debates, not necessarily a revision on your standpoint. Anything and everything you do is always appreciated
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Banning Hermit Druid makes me think that someone who wanted to play casual EDH sat down with a guy rocking Hermit Druid, got butthurt when the casual deck got stomped on T5 by Hermit Druid guy, and has since decided that the card is too busted. Look, unless you got Druid in your opener, you need to tutor for him during your first few turns. While you're tutoring, everyone else is setting up. Let's say you're in BUG colors. This means that the tutors that can search him up are Imperial Seal (which few people have), Demonic, and Vampiric. Maybe you're playing Worldly or GSZ. If you cast Demonic, you're playing Druid on T3, summoning sick, and won't get to activate him till turn 4. If you played Vampiric or Seal on T1, the Druid doesn't come online till T3. My point is this: Hermit Druid is a 2-2.5 card investment that can pretty easily just be bolted. Or countered. Or hit with Swords. Or path. Or doom blade. Or even capsized. There's a lot of ways several of your opponents have to answer druid, even if he's in your opener. I mean, unless you got a godhand of mana crypt, druid, land, greaves, your opponents get a chance to answer him. And if they do, you get 2 for one'd. And unless you opened up with a tutor or druid, they don't have to worry about it.
Is he strong when you deck is built to abuse him and you can play him early? Sure. But I don't think enough people build decks that hinge heavily on the playing and survival of Hermit Druid for a ban to impact the environment. All the Hermit Druid players are going to do is drop green, add white, and play Sharuum.
Emrakul got banned because it turned the format into "Who gets out Emrakul first, and can we deal with it? Emrakul just went in every deck." Hermit Druid requires you to build around him, play green, and is MUCH easier to answer if you do cast him. Just because a card is powerful if built around doesn't necessarily mean it should be banned, otherwise the ban list is going to start looking a LOT longer.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Ehhh I wanted to clarify a few things here:
1) Sharrum has too many ways to go off... If you were to ban the combo pieces he has you would be banning several cards or banning him as a commander instead. There are two ways to infinite clone him with another lots of ways to infinite kill everyone one you set that up. Taking apart Sharrum combo would likely involve outright banning him as a commander because the other option would be to ban like... 4 cards minimum. Without doing one or the other you wont be improving anything here.
2) Hermit Druid - The broken decks that use him as their combo piece use a lot more tutors than you mentioned. Utilizing partial parris mulligans you have the potential to dig very very far into your deck from an opening hand. This means that between the approximately 8-10 or so tutors + Hermit Druid himself it becomes very very likely to open with him.
There is a matter of considering how many cards would be needed to ban to take something out of the loop. Hermit Druid is extremely more powerful but by all means stoppable. Shruum tends to be considered more of the robust combo than the fast combo of the format.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Pretty much the only reason I can think of that they would EVER need to be/stay banned is because a five-colored general playing all five Moxen would have massive mana advantage. And by massive, I really mean minor unless you get a ridiculously luck hand with multiple Moxen. If someone wants to break the format, they can probably do so without spending an additional $2000+ on five artifacts. And if someone is going to do that, they're probably in the format for the wrong reasons anyways and will probably achieve their goal without the aid of a few pieces of mana acceleration.
Overall though, the RC doesn't intend to ban cards based upon what is competitive or ban things due to other bannings that were made. In general, the moxes were banned in the first place because they belong in every single deck. Imperial Seal has a lot of duplicate cards that do the same thing and even better which is funny. It is not banned because power wise... it isnt anything that doesn't already exist. It is just damn hard to find a copy of. Moxes on the other hand are not duplicated outside of their cycle. Power wise they are off the charts right there with Sol Ring and I don't want to see people jamming 3 more copies of Sol Ring into their decks...
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Except for trisk/mikeaus (both very good in for example mimoplasm) kiki/conscripts (Which by the admission of 90% of people taking the kiki poll is a problem because even if they don't get them they feel like TnN is holding back making the game pointless.) You are correct it is impossible to have a victory condition for that card however, saying "You can't stop combo from being combo" is blatantly false as this format nearly does that needing only 3-5 more bans to remove nearly all high end combo decks (IE turns 2-5)
First of all Koko isn't a combo creature and is not in the same league as the rest of those however I care very little for the dragon either way. I am not a hypocrite because I want to KEEP those cards banned and add just a few more (druid, oath, adnauseam, power artifact, and possibly TnN) that create stale boring deck building and are either absurdly undercosted or absurdly compact in addition to being resilient. They are simply too fast and need a ban.
EDIT:
The deck virtually ignores removal as you can shallow grave and not even pass priority till the activation is used.
Power level, seal is strictly worse than available tutors so unless you ban vamp it makes no sense. Moxen are the best of the best excluding mana vault.
Many, many players already own the cards (barring the couple portal spells) just from playing legacy. This argument has been used at least four times now it has been as bad as it is now each time.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Reread what I said. I wasn't calling you a hypocrite. I was calling all the people who vote to ban Druid but want to UNBAN cards I cited (and others like them).
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Fair enough, and I can respect the opposite point of view (Don't ban anything besides the obvious suspects, mox/ancestral/biorythem/exct) The problem I have with the banned list is it goes half way to making the format not degenerate but refuses to go the last 5 feet to cross the finish line.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
I feel the same way more or less, but right now I'm not foaming at the mouth like some people are. I'll wait to see what the RC says in a few weeks with the updated list and philosophy. After that, I may grab my pitchfork, but we'll see. The biggest hurdle the RC has to jump is getting people to understand what environment they're trying to foster, and make a list that clearly reflects that.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
No, you just have to have the mana base and a reanimation spell, to make him CONSISTENTLY broken you need to dedicate your deck. In an average deck reanimating necrotic ooze is frequently lethal unless you intentionally avoid putting cards in your deck (which are quite good on their own) that you very easily might include.
Seems reasonable to me, the only reason it frustrates me me right now is the inconsistency "The banned list isn't about stopping combo" <Insert 1/3rd the banned list> is frustrating to people who say "It isn't about combo."
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
By my understanding, you have to build at least most of the deck around that combo. Plus, it's stupid expensive (or likely to be).
Finally, isn't this a damned social format? If someone shows up with the deck at your LGS, you can more or less say "Eff that deck, it's not fun to play against. I realize that you may like to combo, and that's fine, but give the rest of us a chance. You already have a *****in' mana base, just build something else, it'll run really smoothly." Online is more of a problem, but I s'pose that you could be slightly jerk-ish and just boot the player that does that, ignoring that he was ever in the game, or something.
^ And that social format thing is coming from someone with a stutter. Jebus, man up, peeps...
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
1. He's not a combo card. He's an enabler of a combo that normally would 3+ cards without him (and with him a lot more because now you have to strip out the basic lands and add recursion).
2. The meta hasn't warped around him. People run a lot more gy hate, but that's because WBG reanimator has gotten bigger overall (thank you, Karador).
3. Games don't revolve around him. Yes, he needs to be dealt with when he hits the board, but so do a whole slew of creatures. But how many games can you count where someone other than the Druid player Cloned it, kicked a Rite on it, or snagged it from a graveyard? Zero.
4. In order to build a deck that is as destructive as some of you are ranting about (and yes, I've played against it), you have to build your ENTIRE deck around getting Druid out turn 2/3. If someone has that kind of determination and money, they'll do it with or without Druid.
5. He has to intentionally be used. A player doesn't tap him and go, "whoops, I accidentally put half my deck in my graveyard".
6. Players still have time to respond. Yes, the whole "just play removal" argument is weak. So my point isn't so much that there are multiple answers that can be played turn 1, but that the combo has to pass priority, allowing players to respond.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Mill yourself you not only win but have answered to well answers. He stopped developing it with its ban in French but it's pretty solid and normally net decked to stomp side events etc.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
First off, we're not talking about 1v1. Naturally that deck will be more consistent when you only have to worry about one person (rather than three) having disruption. Secondly, how can you honestly look at that deck and think it is representative of the majority of EDH decks. That deck, and others like it, fall in the 1% of decks which blatantly make NO EFFORT WHATSOEVER to conform to even the loosest definition of social gaming. When it comes to banning a card, citing a deck like that will be ignored every single time.
Secondly, your argument every single time Druid gets brought up is "look at this dudes deck. It is teh best deck evar!" How about refuting one of the myriad of reasons why HD shouldn't be banned? So far the closest you've come is that reading through that decklist, I see that there is supposedly a way to recover from someone popping a Nihil Spellbomb while Narcomoeba is on the stack.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Yeah, it's annoying when it goes off really early, but other combos similarly come out of nowhere to win, too. And you can't just ban away an entire play-style archetype.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Players has nothing to do with social aspect IMO I play Combi decks we socialize all the time. I'm not going to make up stats or claim I know what the average meta us even though alot if people here do but in my experience casual play in edh us non existent. Think we should ban compeitivly. I think in a cometive ban list hermit druid is too fast and broken as hell. I hate the can be used fairly or most people use thus fairly crap be user not one if you had any real statistics and it's all speculation u can make that argument for almost any card....
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I am not even sure how to respond to this...
Grisselbanned isn't a combo either, he is just a 1 card enabler that wins the game.
Yawgmoths bargain isn't a combo either, its just a 1 card enabler that wins the game.
Calling an "Enabler" not the combo is simply wrong as without it the 'combo' is pretty fair. The 'enabler' if it is just 1 card is essentially a 1 card combo.
Same for hulk.
How about the mental capacity to cast abeyance, grudge, or stifle it instead of running into the on board answer like a goldfish. That requires roughly the mental capacity equivalent to not casting a brainstorm while chalice of the void is at 1.
Saying the deck loses to graveyard hate or removal is like saying storm loses to force of will, any good storm player will laugh at you and then crush you. Having played the deck it feels like dredge sometimes (you will just run it out there get answered twice and still just win) but more often it just feels like you are going to either turbo steam roll them or make them have 10 consecutive answers.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Most experienced players will agree that Sol Ring is much stronger than the Moxen, allowing for things like turn 2 Natural Order and other such spells. Moxen are strong because of the inclusion of all five into 60-card decks in Vintage. So, by your logic, it doesn't make sense to ban the Moxen unless Sol Ring is banned.
I think there's been a huge overreaction to Sheldon saying that we're updating the philosophy pages, and it's just setting people up for disappointment. We're simply going to write more on the idea of social gaming and that building decks focused on winning at all costs is outside the spirit of mainstream Commander (but if you have a group that enjoys that, knock yourself out; sounds miserable to me). The philosophy itself isn't going to change notably from what we've been talking about here and elsewhere.
Hermit Druid is completely broken if you want to make it so. So we ban it. All the players playing it flock to the next-best broken thing. We ban that. They flock to the next broken thing. There's no amount of banning that can make their decks fun for the splashy-effects-and-tribal-synergies social crowd that is the bread and butter of the format. It's not like these people are being creative or interesting - they're simply copying the thing that lets them win off the net.
As a "most broken card" goes, Hermit Druid is pretty good - it's not terribly griefy, it's fun when you're not actively trying to break it in half, and it's not going to accidentally wreck games played in the appropriate spirit, while still providing an interesting effect.
I love you so much! Can you just put that on the EDH page with X instead of hermit druid? Please? Can you please just slap everyone who complains about kiki jiki and palinchron with this?
That's the thing, sol ring and crypt (far better than ring) should be banned to foster a more normal format, and the inconsistency with the list is aggravating.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
I'm fine with that. I honestly don't know what to expect in a few weeks other than the banned announcements. I was assuming that your clarification on the philosophy would address some of the ongoing debates, not necessarily a revision on your standpoint. Anything and everything you do is always appreciated
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg