It is my opinion that the RC keeps kokopuffs banned because of new player mentality. Is he overpowering? Not particularly. I look at him as an aggressive rattlesnake.
But EDH, at its core, is a casual game for kitchen table players. It's grown but the roots are still there. The mentality behind the banning is that new players are going to look at him and feel that he is distinctly unfun and an auto-include for their new, janky EDH decks. While more seasoned players (anyone reading this forum) will point out there are any number of creatures that are just flat out better the new player will get a distinct "unfun" vibe from what he/she thought was supposed to a casual format filled with fatties.
Kokopuffs just isn't that good in the grand scheme of things. Competitive players will cut him for better cards and casual players feel bad for using him. He won't suddenly come off the banlist and arguing about it is going to get us nowhere while he still has that new player "unfun" vibe.
Kokusho can be a direct cause for winning a game, by simply playing him. The cards you mentioned help only to fuel an eventual game winning situation, they offer extreme amounts of advantage, but cannot directly win the game.
I don't think that is the biggest problem. Kokusho, the evening star won't win you the game, but it's a big impact it makes in MP: Draining 5 from everyone gives you such an advantage that it will win you the game.
Let me talk about my playgroup and what happened when Kokusho was released: B-Every black player was packing as much tutors, Kokusho's and reanimate as possible. W-White players were packing exilers. U-Blue players stacked Bribery, Control Magic-effects and clones. G-Green players were ^&$%^&, so they splashed one of the other colors. R-Red players filled their deck with take-over and sac-outlets or used burn-spells that exile cards.
As you can see, the moment he got introduced every deck was built around Kokusho, the evening star; even if they didn't play it themself.
It kinda ruined the fun and didn't allow us to create interesting decks.
Well, some people made interesting decks, but they lost because they couldn't fight a Kokusho with 20 reanimates and clones coming for it.
I know the same would happen in EDH!
As soon as someone has it in his deck, it will be stolen, tutored, reanimated and the entire board is dedicated to abusing him.
Do we want that in EDH?
The ban-commitee doesn't want that, and I love them for banning the card that ruined most casual MP-groups.
I don't think that is the biggest problem. Kokusho, the evening star won't win you the game, but it's a big impact it makes in MP: Draining 5 from everyone gives you such an advantage that it will win you the game.
No. No. No. This mentality is "bad player" thought process. Life means absolutely nothing for most of the game. Board state matters which is why Prime Titan is worse. Hand matters which is why Gris is worse.
I think we are playing a different game, because i would just auto lose if I had griselbrand as a general, and get blown out and out controlled. First, I would never get to draw 35 cards. The only time he's been remotely a problem in the testing with my playgroup was when I dropped a sol ring, and had a tomb of yawgmoth and coffers in my opening hand. Otherwise, I just play him and ask if anyone has a voidslime, stifle, or trickbind. It doesn't matter you draw those 35 cards, you wont be able to do anything and you'll be sitting there at 5 life. You'll have to come up with a better combo than pay 35 life and draw 35, play a mox (if you draw it), a few rituals (if you draw the right one), and a skirge familiar (if you draw it). That combo is fragile as hell. You know what's better? Hermit druid and dread return to win the game, it happens faster, and more consistently before griselbrand ever gets online. The druid isn't banned and is just better than griselbrand. He's also no where near as good as protean hulk or emrakul which are banned. He's just a crappy bargain, which is better and more flexible. He's worse than druid (which isn't banned) and not even remotely as powerful as emrakul and hulk (which actually do win the game).
If you're playing mtg there's no reason to have a griselbrand deck draw 35 cards or ever resolve, and if he did resolve, he shouldn't be in a position to draw those cards because you were playing the game. I will say that if you're playing against bads or against decks with 40+ craw wurms, you'll probably win. If that's a reason for banning grisel than the banlist needs to triple in size.
Yes because everyone is playing blue and everyone will draw 35 cards in response to gris being targeted by removal. *rolls eyes* If you were playing mtg, then you would know a thing or two about card advantage and how gris takes that to the extreme.
I don't know how to put this nicely so I'll just say it. your play group sucks. Really. You can group think yourself into thinking this is a problem card, but any real deck will run circles around you. I dont even have a single deck that plays bribery because there is generally something that better advances the game to victory for 5 mana. You are just listing a lot of cards that are good when you don't have a focused game plan.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
No. No. No. This mentality is "bad player" thought process. Life means absolutely nothing for most of the game. Board state matters which is why Prime Titan is worse. Hand matters which is why Gris is worse.
Lifegain does have some relevance, but not nearly as much as people think. Kokusho's lifegain effect is a nice benefit, but not as relevant in EDH as it is in Modern or Legacy, and certainly not more important than the lifeloss effect.
Still, even considering both and the fact that he's a creature (thus easily recurred), he isn't strong enough to stay on the banned list. Every color now has a handful of ways of stopping him (most notably Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt), and reanimator is slowly becoming more skill-based than sheer speed-based (you now actually have to worry about your eggs not being in one basket).
Life gain has some relevance; one of the main reasons I use Exsanguinate even when it's not for a kill is to protect myself, or to fuel Necropotence/Necrologia/Ad Nauseum.
However, life gain has very little relevance compared to mana ramp and card draw.
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The wedding is over. Now it's time for the honeymoon.
I don't know how to put this nicely so I'll just say it. your play group sucks. Really. You can group think yourself into thinking this is a problem card, but any real deck will run circles around you. I dont even have a single deck that plays bribery because there is generally something that better advances the game to victory for 5 mana. You are just listing a lot of cards that are good when you don't have a focused game plan.
Ted too smart !
Indeed. Bribery is starting to lose its appeal, although I'm curious what card at 5cc would be just as good to advance the game outside of Bribery ? (no troll, just curious)
I don't think that is the biggest problem. Kokusho, the evening star won't win you the game, but it's a big impact it makes in MP: Draining 5 from everyone gives you such an advantage that it will win you the game.
Let me talk about my playgroup and what happened when Kokusho was released: B-Every black player was packing as much tutors, Kokusho's and reanimate as possible. W-White players were packing exilers. U-Blue players stacked Bribery, Control Magic-effects and clones. G-Green players were ^&$%^&, so they splashed one of the other colors. R-Red players filled their deck with take-over and sac-outlets or used burn-spells that exile cards.
As you can see, the moment he got introduced every deck was built around Kokusho, the evening star; even if they didn't play it themself.
It kinda ruined the fun and didn't allow us to create interesting decks.
Well, some people made interesting decks, but they lost because they couldn't fight a Kokusho with 20 reanimates and clones coming for it.
I know the same would happen in EDH!
As soon as someone has it in his deck, it will be stolen, tutored, reanimated and the entire board is dedicated to abusing him.
Do we want that in EDH?
The ban-commitee doesn't want that, and I love them for banning the card that ruined most casual MP-groups.
You're comparing something from 4 years ago and applying it to today? Times have changed and so has powercreep. White still packs exiles, blue still packs steals and clones, green still ramps and splashes, and red decks still pack threaten effects. What's your point?
"As soon as someone has it in his deck, it will be stolen, tutored, reanimated and the entire board is dedicated to abusing him."
This isn't even an argument, this is already happening with stuff not on the banlist.
I don't know how to put this nicely so I'll just say it. your play group sucks. Really. You can group think yourself into thinking this is a problem card, but any real deck will run circles around you. I dont even have a single deck that plays bribery because there is generally something that better advances the game to victory for 5 mana. You are just listing a lot of cards that are good when you don't have a focused game plan.
I'm really glad to see other people calling bad players out for being bad. Seems like not enough people understand how poor they are at games. Even worse, they don't learn and attack those trying to instruct.
The part that gets me is that they're unwilling to even test it as a non-commander card. When I started out, yes, Kokusho was a problem in the sense that it seemed too unfair and then everyone wanted to play one and it kind of caused a Jitte thing (except with more lifegain/loss). So I see where they are coming from, but that was a cool experience from my Magic history, it wasn't strictly negative. We learned how to overcome it and are better for it.
So, while I'm not upset that it stays on the banned list, I wish they'd give it a shot. I'm also not naive enough to think "I wouldn't even run it in any of my decks because it's not that good."
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Let me talk about my playgroup and what happened when Kokusho was released: B-Every black player was packing as much tutors, Kokusho's and reanimate as possible. W-White players were packing exilers. U-Blue players stacked Bribery, Control Magic-effects and clones. G-Green players were ^&$%^&, so they splashed one of the other colors. R-Red players filled their deck with take-over and sac-outlets or used burn-spells that exile cards.
You know what happens in my group, where Kokusho is not allowed? The black players pack tutors and reanimate, the white players pack exile effects and tuck, the blue players pack Bribery, control magic, clones, and counterspells (including Stifle effects), the green players pack efficient grave hate, and the red players run whatever the hell they can get their hands on, because red is kind of the whipping boy. Note that red still has answers to Kokusho - I wouldn't have a problem dealing with him in my Jaya deck, for example. The lifegain would be a bit of a pain, but a similar argument can be made for any moderate lifegain, and that says more about my deck's strategy than Kokusho. The same things that are used to answer Kokusho are useful because they shut down some of the most powerful strategies in the format. Players around here don't need to warp their decks to deal with a creature because we already run answers.
Would there be some fighting over Kokusho if he hit the board? Of course. But that's the same as when Primeval, Sphinx, any of the Praetors, or (presumably) Griselbrand come down, and that isn't an exhaustive list. Kokusho's power level is not significantly above the curve, and, as mentioned earlier, the broken enabler that he was being used with was banned simultaneously.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
A few things you should know about the Banned List:
1. We can't ban every card someone finds offensive because the list would be too large.
1a. Banning Card B because Card A is already on the list isn't a slippery slope, it's an impending avalanche.
2. There is no 100% solution because card evaluation is subjective. Ergo, there will never be a player-base consensus list. In other words, no matter what the list looks like, there will be complainers.
3. "Power level" in and of itself is subjective, and not necessarily the only criteria for banning.
4. We will never publish an objective flowchart on how cards get banned because 1) it's close to impossible and 2) a 0% win for us. We'll endeavor to explain why a card gets banned based on which criteria we've used, to wit:
5. The two major things that will get a card banned are 1) it creates too much mana too early in the game (Tolarian Academy) and 2) it makes for bad games even when players aren't trying to abuse it (Biorhythm).
5a. Individuals will interpret those two criteria differently.
6. Creating a "balanced" tournament environment is not a factor.
7. 1v1 play is not a factor.
I hope this helps give some insight into the RC's efforts regarding the banned list.
I think I am going to slap that up on page one of this page. Nicely put Sheldon thanks for the insight.
EDIT: added the above post to the OP here. I think it is a good bit of info to know. Obviously the above reasons sort of outline why Hermit Druid is not already banned.
I feel like whenever a new player comes in and says Koko is too powerful, we all lose focus.
We all know he's not on there because he's a powerful card. He's on there because of what Sheldon says right here
What we can do as the Rules Committee is try to steer people away from cards that we have found accidentally make the game uninteresting. We want to make sure that the shark-infested custard you plan to dangle your enemies over isn't emitting toxic fumes, because that would be awkward. If you are using Erayo, or Armageddon, or putting Curiosity into your Niv-Mizzet deck, you aren't thinking about defeating your opponents with a laser mounted on the moon, and there's no ban list long enough to stop you finding guns too powerful for the format
It's not an issue of power creep, it's an issue of "accidentally making the game uninteresting"
I don't know about anyone else but that's the most vague reason to ban any card. You could give that reason to ANY card!
"Well this card makes EDH uninteresting so it's banned"
"Sheldon that's a Serra Angel"
"Yes she only swings for 4 and has vigilance. Bo-ring!"
Then there's this as well:
Kokusho, the Evening Star: There has been a fair amount of discussion in EDH circles about the necessity of keeping Kokusho banned, so we asked a few local groups to do some testing (which, by the way, we'd previously done with Panoptic Mirror). It's a card that has all sorts of splashy features—a big dragon, big effect—and looks like it might be fun but turns out to be pretty degenerate. We agreed that from what we saw, Kokusho would be as problematic today as he ever was.
He wasn't fun. So cards on the ban list are "fun" based? Why was Emrakul banned after MONTHS of complaining and 900 page threads about how he ruins the format? Why are cards like Mind over Matter considered "making the game interesting", but Recurring Nightmare isn't?
The biggest problem is that the RC bans cards on a global level based on whims and opinions, yet they hide behind the "well if you wanna change rules in your play group, go ahead!"
Yes because I NEVER go to my card shop and play against stranger.
It's just so backwards. If people don't have fun when people run broken cards (geddon, teeg, MoM, cons sphinx) then they should ask their own group to ban those certain cards. The ban list should be there so i can run up to any Joe in the card store and have a fair fight with him in EDH. If he niv mizzit curiosity's me out of the game, i shouldn't be calling for a ban on Niv, I should either say good game and move on, or go back to my playgroup that i normally play in.
It's just sad that they view Kokusho as FORMAT warping, yet only see their local groups.
A few things you should know about the Banned List:
1. We can't ban every card someone finds offensive because the list would be too large.
1a. Banning Card B because Card A is already on the list isn't a slippery slope, it's an impending avalanche.
2. There is no 100% solution because card evaluation is subjective. Ergo, there will never be a player-base consensus list. In other words, no matter what the list looks like, there will be complainers.
3. "Power level" in and of itself is subjective, and not necessarily the only criteria for banning.
4. We will never publish an objective flowchart on how cards get banned because 1) it's close to impossible and 2) a 0% win for us. We'll endeavor to explain why a card gets banned based on which criteria we've used, to wit:
5. The two major things that will get a card banned are 1) it creates too much mana too early in the game (Tolarian Academy) and 2) it makes for bad games even when players aren't trying to abuse it (Biorhythm).
5a. Individuals will interpret those two criteria differently.
6. Creating a "balanced" tournament environment is not a factor.
7. 1v1 play is not a factor.
I hope this helps give some insight into the RC's efforts regarding the banned list.
So.. koko is banned because "it makes for bad games even when players aren't trying to abuse it (Biorhythm)."
What makes a "bad game"? Why are players so stupid that they will run a card like biorhythm and not realize that if they are the only one with creatures, they will win? I don't see why you try to lead everyone by the hand to have fun.
edit2:
The two major things that will get a card banned are 1) it creates too much mana too early in the game
You're comparing something from 4 years ago and applying it to today? Times have changed and so has powercreep. White still packs exiles, blue still packs steals and clones, green still ramps and splashes, and red decks still pack threaten effects. What's your point?
That the moment someone has Kokusho in his deck, the game stops being about having a good time and is all about getting Kokusho under your control.
Multiplayer was like that when Kamigawa came out and EDH would have been like that if they unbanned it.
And that's the problem with Kokusho, a game should revolve around one card.
No. No. No. This mentality is "bad player" thought process. Life means absolutely nothing for most of the game. Board state matters which is why Prime Titan is worse. Hand matters which is why Gris is worse.
So if we were ever to play EDH, I am allowed to begin with twice the amount of life you have?
Life IS important.
Kokusho allows you to take two turns after a wipe to build up a board-position.
It's only a bad-player thought because most bad players build terribad life-gain decks.
So if we were ever to play EDH, I am allowed to begin with twice the amount of life you have?
Life IS important.
Kokusho allows you to take two turns after a wipe to build up a board-position.
It's only a bad-player thought because most bad players build terribad life-gain decks.
Life is not important. If I combo out and end you you can have as much life as you want. If I hit you for 21 general dmg you can have as much life as you want. It is a *near* meaningless number. In fact, the only reason it matters at all is because I can't pay as much as I want to Ad Nauseam. It's a restriction, not a win condition.
That the moment someone has Kokusho in his deck, the game stops being about having a good time and is all about getting Kokusho under your control.
Multiplayer was like that when Kamigawa came out and EDH would have been like that if they unbanned it.
And that's the problem with Kokusho, a game should revolve around one card.
So if we were ever to play EDH, I am allowed to begin with twice the amount of life you have?
Life IS important.
Kokusho allows you to take two turns after a wipe to build up a board-position.
It's only a bad-player thought because most bad players build terribad life-gain decks.
Oh my desire to use ad hominims. I'll assume you made a typo.
"That the moment someone has Consecrated Sphinx in his deck, the game stops being about having a good time and is all about getting Consecrated under your control.
Multiplayer was like that when Mirrodin Besieged came out and EDH would have been like that if they unbanned it.
And that's the problem with Consecrated, a game shouldnt revolve around one card."
"That the moment someone has Ptime in his deck, the game stops being about having a good time and is all about getting Ptime under your control.
Multiplayer was like that when M11 came out and EDH would have been like that if they unbanned it.
And that's the problem with Ptime, a game shouldnt revolve around one card."
"That the moment someone has Sundering Titan in his deck, the game stops being about having a good time and is all about getting Sundering Titan under your control.
Multiplayer was like that when Mirrodin came out and EDH would have been like that if they unbanned it.
And that's the problem with Sundering Titan, a game shouldnt revolve around one card."
See what I did there! That argument doesn't work for kokusho anymore emrakul pretty much set a precident and kokusho as well as other silly 6 drops do not meet that.
One thing about Sundering Titan is it wrecks people's boards early turns and pretty much prevents them from being "in the game." I feel terrible dropping it on turns 2-5 b/c I pretty much set people back 3-4 turns sometimes.
As for Sphinx and Prime Time, its "buyer beware!" It pretty much increase your chances to victory if either triggers once, but people like reanimating it or stealing them so thats a major drawback.
"That the moment someone has Consecrated Sphinx in his deck
Reality shows out it's not like that with this card, people hardly care.
It's a nice card, but that's it..
"That the moment someone has Ptime in his deck
Same as above.
"That the moment someone has Sundering Titan in his deck
He is politely asked to get another deck
See what I did there! That argument doesn't work for kokusho anymore emrakul pretty much set a precident and kokusho as well as other silly 6 drops do not meet that.
Apparently the argument DOES work for Kokusho, seeing as he is banned.
But if he's not that overpowered and game-ruining, than why are you whining so hard to get it unbanned?
Life is not important. If I combo out and end you you can have as much life as you want. If I hit you for 21 general dmg you can have as much life as you want. It is a *near* meaningless number. In fact, the only reason it matters at all is because I can't pay as much as I want to Ad Nauseam. It's a restriction, not a win condition.
And if I have 80 life because Kokusho died after a wipe, I am allowed to take my time in rebuilding my forces.
I'm happy for you that you play combo and 21+ general damage in your group, bust most casual groups don't have that.
I'm seriously wondering why I am still discussing this..
People with more knowledge already talked about it and banned the ass out of this card.
Why? Because it has proven to ruin games.
All of the above cards don't win on their own, they don't affect the board so much.
You draw 4 cards because you reanimated him for 5 mana? Good for you, enough cards that do this.
You blew up basic lands? Not a problem, in 4 player games you will often ruin your own lands.
You got two additional lands? Who gives a ^&%#, we're allready on 14 lands anyway and can play what we want.
I think the issue is people like timmiej play in terrible groups full of people who don't understand how magic works. It really sucks when people like that can argue with those who actually understand how the game functions. Extremely frustrating.
Flaming warning. Please refrain from personal attacks on other users / groups of people. -ISB
I'm pretty sure he's just trolling, so just ignore him. No one seriously thinks that having 80 life buys much of a time margin to rebuild. Still die in one hit from an aggro general.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Nobody is doing that, because Kokusho is banned.
Drawing 40 cards, getting 40 lands?
I would LOVE to play with your group if those creatures stay alive so long.
I think the issue is people like timmiej play in terrible groups full of people who don't understand how magic works. It really sucks when people like that can argue with those who actually understand how the game functions. Extremely frustrating.
Oooh yes :') Everyone but you doesn't understand magic..
So that happens when people run out of arguments.
Let's see what we can do about personal attacks like this.
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But EDH, at its core, is a casual game for kitchen table players. It's grown but the roots are still there. The mentality behind the banning is that new players are going to look at him and feel that he is distinctly unfun and an auto-include for their new, janky EDH decks. While more seasoned players (anyone reading this forum) will point out there are any number of creatures that are just flat out better the new player will get a distinct "unfun" vibe from what he/she thought was supposed to a casual format filled with fatties.
Kokopuffs just isn't that good in the grand scheme of things. Competitive players will cut him for better cards and casual players feel bad for using him. He won't suddenly come off the banlist and arguing about it is going to get us nowhere while he still has that new player "unfun" vibe.
Building silly decks for silly games.
I don't think that is the biggest problem. Kokusho, the evening star won't win you the game, but it's a big impact it makes in MP: Draining 5 from everyone gives you such an advantage that it will win you the game.
Let me talk about my playgroup and what happened when Kokusho was released:
B-Every black player was packing as much tutors, Kokusho's and reanimate as possible.
W-White players were packing exilers.
U-Blue players stacked Bribery, Control Magic-effects and clones.
G-Green players were ^&$%^&, so they splashed one of the other colors.
R-Red players filled their deck with take-over and sac-outlets or used burn-spells that exile cards.
As you can see, the moment he got introduced every deck was built around Kokusho, the evening star; even if they didn't play it themself.
It kinda ruined the fun and didn't allow us to create interesting decks.
Well, some people made interesting decks, but they lost because they couldn't fight a Kokusho with 20 reanimates and clones coming for it.
I know the same would happen in EDH!
As soon as someone has it in his deck, it will be stolen, tutored, reanimated and the entire board is dedicated to abusing him.
Do we want that in EDH?
The ban-commitee doesn't want that, and I love them for banning the card that ruined most casual MP-groups.
No. No. No. This mentality is "bad player" thought process. Life means absolutely nothing for most of the game. Board state matters which is why Prime Titan is worse. Hand matters which is why Gris is worse.
Yes because everyone is playing blue and everyone will draw 35 cards in response to gris being targeted by removal. *rolls eyes* If you were playing mtg, then you would know a thing or two about card advantage and how gris takes that to the extreme.
Lifegain does have some relevance, but not nearly as much as people think. Kokusho's lifegain effect is a nice benefit, but not as relevant in EDH as it is in Modern or Legacy, and certainly not more important than the lifeloss effect.
Still, even considering both and the fact that he's a creature (thus easily recurred), he isn't strong enough to stay on the banned list. Every color now has a handful of ways of stopping him (most notably Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt), and reanimator is slowly becoming more skill-based than sheer speed-based (you now actually have to worry about your eggs not being in one basket).
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
However, life gain has very little relevance compared to mana ramp and card draw.
Thanks to Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures!
Ted too smart !
Indeed. Bribery is starting to lose its appeal, although I'm curious what card at 5cc would be just as good to advance the game outside of Bribery ? (no troll, just curious)
You're comparing something from 4 years ago and applying it to today? Times have changed and so has powercreep. White still packs exiles, blue still packs steals and clones, green still ramps and splashes, and red decks still pack threaten effects. What's your point?
"As soon as someone has it in his deck, it will be stolen, tutored, reanimated and the entire board is dedicated to abusing him."
This isn't even an argument, this is already happening with stuff not on the banlist.
I'm really glad to see other people calling bad players out for being bad. Seems like not enough people understand how poor they are at games. Even worse, they don't learn and attack those trying to instruct.
So, while I'm not upset that it stays on the banned list, I wish they'd give it a shot. I'm also not naive enough to think "I wouldn't even run it in any of my decks because it's not that good."
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You know what happens in my group, where Kokusho is not allowed? The black players pack tutors and reanimate, the white players pack exile effects and tuck, the blue players pack Bribery, control magic, clones, and counterspells (including Stifle effects), the green players pack efficient grave hate, and the red players run whatever the hell they can get their hands on, because red is kind of the whipping boy. Note that red still has answers to Kokusho - I wouldn't have a problem dealing with him in my Jaya deck, for example. The lifegain would be a bit of a pain, but a similar argument can be made for any moderate lifegain, and that says more about my deck's strategy than Kokusho. The same things that are used to answer Kokusho are useful because they shut down some of the most powerful strategies in the format. Players around here don't need to warp their decks to deal with a creature because we already run answers.
Would there be some fighting over Kokusho if he hit the board? Of course. But that's the same as when Primeval, Sphinx, any of the Praetors, or (presumably) Griselbrand come down, and that isn't an exhaustive list. Kokusho's power level is not significantly above the curve, and, as mentioned earlier, the broken enabler that he was being used with was banned simultaneously.
1. We can't ban every card someone finds offensive because the list would be too large.
1a. Banning Card B because Card A is already on the list isn't a slippery slope, it's an impending avalanche.
2. There is no 100% solution because card evaluation is subjective. Ergo, there will never be a player-base consensus list. In other words, no matter what the list looks like, there will be complainers.
3. "Power level" in and of itself is subjective, and not necessarily the only criteria for banning.
4. We will never publish an objective flowchart on how cards get banned because 1) it's close to impossible and 2) a 0% win for us. We'll endeavor to explain why a card gets banned based on which criteria we've used, to wit:
5. The two major things that will get a card banned are 1) it creates too much mana too early in the game (Tolarian Academy) and 2) it makes for bad games even when players aren't trying to abuse it (Biorhythm).
5a. Individuals will interpret those two criteria differently.
6. Creating a "balanced" tournament environment is not a factor.
7. 1v1 play is not a factor.
I hope this helps give some insight into the RC's efforts regarding the banned list.
EDIT: added the above post to the OP here. I think it is a good bit of info to know. Obviously the above reasons sort of outline why Hermit Druid is not already banned.
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[Modern] Allies
We all know he's not on there because he's a powerful card. He's on there because of what Sheldon says right here
It's not an issue of power creep, it's an issue of "accidentally making the game uninteresting"
I don't know about anyone else but that's the most vague reason to ban any card. You could give that reason to ANY card!
"Well this card makes EDH uninteresting so it's banned"
"Sheldon that's a Serra Angel"
"Yes she only swings for 4 and has vigilance. Bo-ring!"
Then there's this as well:
He wasn't fun. So cards on the ban list are "fun" based? Why was Emrakul banned after MONTHS of complaining and 900 page threads about how he ruins the format? Why are cards like Mind over Matter considered "making the game interesting", but Recurring Nightmare isn't?
The biggest problem is that the RC bans cards on a global level based on whims and opinions, yet they hide behind the "well if you wanna change rules in your play group, go ahead!"
Yes because I NEVER go to my card shop and play against stranger.
It's just so backwards. If people don't have fun when people run broken cards (geddon, teeg, MoM, cons sphinx) then they should ask their own group to ban those certain cards. The ban list should be there so i can run up to any Joe in the card store and have a fair fight with him in EDH. If he niv mizzit curiosity's me out of the game, i shouldn't be calling for a ban on Niv, I should either say good game and move on, or go back to my playgroup that i normally play in.
It's just sad that they view Kokusho as FORMAT warping, yet only see their local groups.
edit:
So.. koko is banned because "it makes for bad games even when players aren't trying to abuse it (Biorhythm)."
What makes a "bad game"? Why are players so stupid that they will run a card like biorhythm and not realize that if they are the only one with creatures, they will win? I don't see why you try to lead everyone by the hand to have fun.
edit2:
Why isn't Sol Ring banned?
That the moment someone has Kokusho in his deck, the game stops being about having a good time and is all about getting Kokusho under your control.
Multiplayer was like that when Kamigawa came out and EDH would have been like that if they unbanned it.
And that's the problem with Kokusho, a game should revolve around one card.
So if we were ever to play EDH, I am allowed to begin with twice the amount of life you have?
Life IS important.
Kokusho allows you to take two turns after a wipe to build up a board-position.
It's only a bad-player thought because most bad players build terribad life-gain decks.
Life is not important. If I combo out and end you you can have as much life as you want. If I hit you for 21 general dmg you can have as much life as you want. It is a *near* meaningless number. In fact, the only reason it matters at all is because I can't pay as much as I want to Ad Nauseam. It's a restriction, not a win condition.
Oh my desire to use ad hominims. I'll assume you made a typo.
"That the moment someone has Consecrated Sphinx in his deck, the game stops being about having a good time and is all about getting Consecrated under your control.
Multiplayer was like that when Mirrodin Besieged came out and EDH would have been like that if they unbanned it.
And that's the problem with Consecrated, a game shouldnt revolve around one card."
"That the moment someone has Ptime in his deck, the game stops being about having a good time and is all about getting Ptime under your control.
Multiplayer was like that when M11 came out and EDH would have been like that if they unbanned it.
And that's the problem with Ptime, a game shouldnt revolve around one card."
"That the moment someone has Sundering Titan in his deck, the game stops being about having a good time and is all about getting Sundering Titan under your control.
Multiplayer was like that when Mirrodin came out and EDH would have been like that if they unbanned it.
And that's the problem with Sundering Titan, a game shouldnt revolve around one card."
See what I did there! That argument doesn't work for kokusho anymore emrakul pretty much set a precident and kokusho as well as other silly 6 drops do not meet that.
As for Sphinx and Prime Time, its "buyer beware!" It pretty much increase your chances to victory if either triggers once, but people like reanimating it or stealing them so thats a major drawback.
Reality shows out it's not like that with this card, people hardly care.
It's a nice card, but that's it..
Same as above.
He is politely asked to get another deck
Apparently the argument DOES work for Kokusho, seeing as he is banned.
But if he's not that overpowered and game-ruining, than why are you whining so hard to get it unbanned?
And if I have 80 life because Kokusho died after a wipe, I am allowed to take my time in rebuilding my forces.
I'm happy for you that you play combo and 21+ general damage in your group, bust most casual groups don't have that.
I'm seriously wondering why I am still discussing this..
People with more knowledge already talked about it and banned the ass out of this card.
Why? Because it has proven to ruin games.
All of the above cards don't win on their own, they don't affect the board so much.
You draw 4 cards because you reanimated him for 5 mana? Good for you, enough cards that do this.
You blew up basic lands? Not a problem, in 4 player games you will often ruin your own lands.
You got two additional lands? Who gives a ^&%#, we're allready on 14 lands anyway and can play what we want.
Are you seriously cloning/stealing/recurring Kokusho, The Evening Star over Consecrated Sphinx/Primeval Titan?
No one cares about drawing 40 cards or getting 40 lands on the field?
.................Can I play with you guys?
Flaming warning. Please refrain from personal attacks on other users / groups of people. -ISB
Nobody is doing that, because Kokusho is banned.
Drawing 40 cards, getting 40 lands?
I would LOVE to play with your group if those creatures stay alive so long.
Oooh yes :') Everyone but you doesn't understand magic..
So that happens when people run out of arguments.
Let's see what we can do about personal attacks like this.