The banned list is consistent, but it's consistent based off of what they believe the largest % of playerbase they're trying to appeal to finds "Fun", not strict power level. So if you're trying to break a deck, then no, nothing you break is going to get slammed. Hermit Druid is a problem in decks that are designed to be broken. It might destroy some games, but it's easily managed since 1v1 or competitive EDH isn't the point of the format, so the druid being broken doesn't matter.
If you want to host a 1v1 tournie, yeah, ban the Druid, and anything else you feel is too strong. But a victory that has someone going "This is stupid" is far worse for the format than a bunch of people running angry hermit.
This is an awful reason for banning or not banning things. You should look to the most competitive players to give you a reasonable idea of what should and shouldn't be banned because they will actually break cards. Casual players will always lose to efficient strategies because they have chosen to not interact with them.
That is why we see people calling for the banning of all manner of non-broken things like Consecrated Sphinx, Primeval Titan, Cabal Coffers, Exsanguinate, etc. None of these cards are unbeatable, but they do happen to be efficient. Many people are going to complain about losing to cards like these, but they are of a reasonable power level and are therefore not worth banning.
Edit:
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means improve you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Remember that any bounce card can beat Coalition Victory as well, even if the general has shroud/hexproof - you can always bounce a land.
While CV is a "one-card win" - it really isn't. It requires more set-up than most combos in the format, and at least it's decisive. It's not a lockdown or some such.
What I always wonder is - how do people WANT games to end? In my mind, I'm happiest when a night of EDH has four games that ended four different ways. In my playgroup, we have decks built around just about every win con you can imagine - there's a poison aggro deck, a poison control deck, several combo decks, lockdown decks, general damage via a big general, general damage via voltron, regular creature aggro, token swarms, any number of "win cards" like Felidar Sovereign, and even milling. Heck, one of our players has told us he plans to show off his Lab Maniac Wrexial deck this weekend (with the plan being to mill everyone out, including himself, so he has two ways to win). This, to me, is awesome. If in the midst of all that, someone managed to get out one of each basic land type, a five-color general, and maybe 11-13 mana (so they can have counterspell backup), all in one turn? Awesome!
Which is another thing to remember about Coalition Victory: you say that it isn't like the other "win" cards, because those give you a turn cycle, but THAT ISN'T TRUE. First off, if you're DEDICATED to having your deck win via Test of Endurance or something like it, you have ways to flash it in or sneak it in when people don't expect it. It's certainly possible, and you'd be trying to do so if that was your main win con. But even Coalition Victory gives you at least a turn - because if they're casting their five-color general AND Coalition Victory AND leaving up mana to counter, well then they deserve to win because they have 15+ mana open in a five-color deck. When the game gets to that point, you can't complain when someone wins. More likely, however, they play out their five-color general with a bit of mana open to counter, and then next turn, WHEN THEY UNTAP they play CV. So you really DO get at least as much time as with any other win card, you just have to be a savvy enough player to recognize the signs. Maybe they'll "trick" you once - but that should be it.
Remember that any bounce card can beat Coalition Victory as well, even if the general has shroud/hexproof - you can always bounce a land.
While CV is a "one-card win" - it really isn't. It requires more set-up than most combos in the format, and at least it's decisive. It's not a lockdown or some such.
What I always wonder is - how do people WANT games to end? In my mind, I'm happiest when a night of EDH has four games that ended four different ways. In my playgroup, we have decks built around just about every win con you can imagine - there's a poison aggro deck, a poison control deck, several combo decks, lockdown decks, general damage via a big general, general damage via voltron, regular creature aggro, token swarms, any number of "win cards" like Felidar Sovereign, and even milling. Heck, one of our players has told us he plans to show off his Lab Maniac Wrexial deck this weekend (with the plan being to mill everyone out, including himself, so he has two ways to win). This, to me, is awesome. If in the midst of all that, someone managed to get out one of each basic land type, a five-color general, and maybe 11-13 mana (so they can have counterspell backup), all in one turn? Awesome!
Which is another thing to remember about Coalition Victory: you say that it isn't like the other "win" cards, because those give you a turn cycle, but THAT ISN'T TRUE. First off, if you're DEDICATED to having your deck win via Test of Endurance or something like it, you have ways to flash it in or sneak it in when people don't expect it. It's certainly possible, and you'd be trying to do so if that was your main win con. But even Coalition Victory gives you at least a turn - because if they're casting their five-color general AND Coalition Victory AND leaving up mana to counter, well then they deserve to win because they have 15+ mana open in a five-color deck. When the game gets to that point, you can't complain when someone wins. More likely, however, they play out their five-color general with a bit of mana open to counter, and then next turn, WHEN THEY UNTAP they play CV. So you really DO get at least as much time as with any other win card, you just have to be a savvy enough player to recognize the signs. Maybe they'll "trick" you once - but that should be it.
So everytime they play the general, you immediately have to kill it in fear of CV. If they're playing Progenitus (the most popular 5C legend for example), then you might as well scoop the moment the have enough mana to cast CV the next turn.
The main reason I think the RC banned this and Biorhythm is to have these "unfun" cards not ruin multiplayer games where 1 guy doesn't have to do anything at all except get his lands, general, and cast 1 spell. All the other I win cards, have upkeep or other much easier conditions to disrupt.
So everytime they play the general, you immediately have to kill it in fear of CV.
This is the main reason I personally have no problem with Coalition Victory being banned. Having to kill every five-colour general every time they're in play is a pain in the ass. It's not as fun a game to play even with just the shadow of the same instant win over your head.
As for Tooth and Nail, when Protean Hulk got banned I figured it was only a matter of time until its sorcery cousin was banned as well. Maybe it still is just a matter of time, but it's been able to hold out this long, so who knows. Maybe the banning of Protean Hulk was enough to warn people of the dangers of using Tooth and Nail irresponsibly. As for the 9 mana thing, remember that this banned list is targeted at casual players. Half of the time everyone at the table makes it to 9 mana, and at least 95% of the time at least one person does.
This is the main reason I personally have no problem with Coalition Victory being banned. Having to kill every five-colour general every time they're in play is a pain in the ass. It's not as fun a game to play even with just the shadow of the same instant win over your head.
As for Tooth and Nail, when Protean Hulk got banned I figured it was only a matter of time until its sorcery cousin was banned as well. Maybe it still is just a matter of time, but it's been able to hold out this long, so who knows. Maybe the banning of Protean Hulk was enough to warn people of the dangers of using Tooth and Nail irresponsibly. As for the 9 mana thing, remember that this banned list is targeted at casual players. Half of the time everyone at the table makes it to 9 mana, and at least 95% of the time at least one person does.
Everytime I play any of my generals, it's killed right away, so I don't see a difference between playing one of those and Progenitus. Yes, even my Sisters of Stone Death....get it on the board and dead....every. time. Likewise, I see my opponent's general played, I make a move to kill it. The deck is BUILT to abuse the general, so take away the general and it helps level the playing field. Maybe it's a pain to do, but it's something that must be done.
Everytime I play any of my generals, it's killed right away, so I don't see a difference between playing one of those and Progenitus. Yes, even my Sisters of Stone Death....get it on the board and dead....every. time. Likewise, I see my opponent's general played, I make a move to kill it. The deck is BUILT to abuse the general, so take away the general and it helps level the playing field. Maybe it's a pain to do, but it's something that must be done.
How much spot removal does your group run? Because it sounds like you're going a little overboard if you can answer every general every time it hits the 'field... Don't get me wrong, playing answers are great, but you've gotta let a threat through at some point. Assessing any five-colour general as a high threat level by default thanks to a single card in their library is not something I want to do.
If it does get unbanned, it's not something I'd complain about and I would adjust my playing accordingly, but I'm certainly not concerned with this card sitting out. Ultimately, I think it would make games less enjoyable.
Since every card has some answer to it, for a card to be banned it should do a few things. A banned card's power level should be so high that the only way to answer it is with specific answer cards that are useless in most situations or cards that cost too much money for the average player to afford. Banned cards are like black holes, they warp the game around them.
With that said I do think T&N should be banned. It isn't some specific win card. It now has many dudes you can grab and win on the spot. So what are answers to T&N? You could use a counter spell, or an instant board wipe. The problem with those is that not everyone will be in colors to play those answers. So what if T&N is a 9 mana, slow "blackhole card" even if you get to 9 without ramp, that is still fairly early in the game.
Other cards that people think are OP, but aren't are subject to "relative gravity" or the power level of your LGS. I say relative gravity, because gravity isn't the same everywhere in the universe. It is the same on the earth though. Gravity is like power level. They can't ban cards that are OP in some groups, but not in most. They need to ban cards that are OP in the average "gravity" or planet earth. So just because your group is fine with ban worthy cards doesn't mean they shouldn't be banned.
So everytime they play the general, you immediately have to kill it in fear of CV. If they're playing Progenitus (the most popular 5C legend for example), then you might as well scoop the moment the have enough mana to cast CV the next turn.
The main reason I think the RC banned this and Biorhythm is to have these "unfun" cards not ruin multiplayer games where 1 guy doesn't have to do anything at all except get his lands, general, and cast 1 spell. All the other I win cards, have upkeep or other much easier conditions to disrupt.
Wait... so the reason that CV should be banned is because you don't want to have to kill PROGENITUS every time he gets played? I hate to tell you this, man, but if Progenitus gets played and you DON'T kill it, Coalition Victory only gets them the win like, one turn sooner than they would have gotten it anyway. If you can't kill Progenitus, then uhh... well, that's about it for that game anyway.
You guys are failing to undestand why the rules council bans cards. It's not about power level. They ban cards that are not "fun." Tooth and Nail is fun. You can do a lot of stuff with TaN that is cool and fun, but doesn't always end the game immediately. Coalition Victory does one, unfun thing. If you don't get why one is fun, and the other is not, well, you probably just don't get how the rules council thinks, which is fine.
Also, Protean Hulk is a weird one to ban, but I'm guessing it's because there were more people doing unfun things with him than anything else.
You guys are failing to undestand why the rules council bans cards: they ban cards that are not "fun." Tooth and Nail is fun. You can do a lot of stuff with TaN that is cool and fun, but doesn't always end the game immediately. Coalition Victory does one, unfun thing. If you don't get why one is fun, and the other is not, well, you probably just don't get how the rules council thinks, which is fine.
Also, Protean Hulk is a weird one to ban, but I'm guessing it's because there were more people doing unfun things with him than anything else.
My guess was it was too easy to abuse it as if you let him dye "die" (there happy) and get a Karmic Guide you rez and rekill him. It is a creature so green can easily tutor for it whereas T&N is relatively hard for green to go get and usually requires black to do so.
The hulk was all around broken in a lot more ways and it is unpredictable to say how many targets he will bring in which can mean more utility creatures and so larger combos can be achieved at one time.
My guess was it was too easy to abuse it as if you let him dye and get a Karmic Guide you rez and rekill him. It is a creature so green can easily tutor for it whereas T&N is relatively hard for green to go get and usually requires black to do so.
The hulk was all around broken in a lot more ways and it is unpredictable to say how many targets he will bring in which can mean more utility creatures and so larger combos can be achieved at one time.
Changing Protean Hulk's color does not trigger his ability.
Wait... so the reason that CV should be banned is because you don't want to have to kill PROGENITUS every time he gets played? I hate to tell you this, man, but if Progenitus gets played and you DON'T kill it, Coalition Victory only gets them the win like, one turn sooner than they would have gotten it anyway. If you can't kill Progenitus, then uhh... well, that's about it for that game anyway.
Oh my Progenitus hits one of my other opponents or myself for 10 damage! We should all scoop!
On a serious note, coalition Victory ends the game that turn. Progenitus itself cannot kill 3+ players a turn later without some infinite attack phase combo.
Oh my Progenitus hits one of my other opponents or myself for 10 damage! We should all scoop!
On a serious note, coalition Victory ends the game that turn. Progenitus itself cannot kill 3+ players a turn later without some infinite attack phase combo.
There are many cards that end the game that turn. Granted all have circumstances attached, but so does CV, so I say equal footing.
One that stands out the most in my mind is Exsanguinate.
Should Exsanguinate be banned? Not even close. But it has less answers than CV does.
Well, I was assuming he's the general. Anyway, Coalition Victory DOESN'T end the game that turn, is what I'm saying. It's a multi-step process; first, you had to play the five-color legend, a land of each type, and get to 8 mana. If you do that over more than one turn, then you give your opponents every bit as much time to do something as with Test of Endurance. In fact, it's EASIER to handle than Test of Endurance, since every color can remove a creature and/or land. Coalition Victory can only be said to win the game "that turn" if you play it on the same turn as you play out your five-color creature, meaning a minimum of about 13 mana spent in one turn, with at least 2 mana of each color. That's more effort than most two-card combos, and is restricted only to 5-color decks. We've been playing with this card unbanned in our playgroup for months - it just gets pulled off so RIDICULOUSLY rarely.
You've got two options - play the game hardcore, or play the game casually. If you play the game casually, then CV never realistically happens (or happens so rarely that it's hardly "warping" or "unfun"). If you're playing the game hardcore, and running every possible tutor, mana accelerator/fixer, counterspell backup, leyline of anticipation to drop stuff in the opponent's end step, etc. - in other words, SUPER tuning your deck to win off of CV - well, then you're still handicapping yourself, because you could have put that exact same amount of effort in but picked a more manageable win condition.
Well, I was assuming he's the general. Anyway, Coalition Victory DOESN'T end the game that turn, is what I'm saying. It's a multi-step process; first, you had to play the five-color legend, a land of each type, and get to 8 mana. If you do that over more than one turn, then you give your opponents every bit as much time to do something as with Test of Endurance. In fact, it's EASIER to handle than Test of Endurance, since every color can remove a creature and/or land. Coalition Victory can only be said to win the game "that turn" if you play it on the same turn as you play out your five-color creature, meaning a minimum of about 13 mana spent in one turn, with at least 2 mana of each color. That's more effort than most two-card combos, and is restricted only to 5-color decks. We've been playing with this card unbanned in our playgroup for months - it just gets pulled off so RIDICULOUSLY rarely.
You've got two options - play the game hardcore, or play the game casually. If you play the game casually, then CV never realistically happens (or happens so rarely that it's hardly "warping" or "unfun"). If you're playing the game hardcore, and running every possible tutor, mana accelerator/fixer, counterspell backup, leyline of anticipation to drop stuff in the opponent's end step, etc. - in other words, SUPER tuning your deck to win off of CV - well, then you're still handicapping yourself, because you could have put that exact same amount of effort in but picked a more manageable win condition.
I would be surprised if the reason Coalition Victory was banned was because 'it's an anti-climatic victory'. If that were the case, all combos that result in a win, all board lockdowns, all mass land destruction, and especially, all 'you win the game' cards would be banned. All those are 'anti-climatic' in the same sense, imo.
I don't think anything is as anti-climatic as an auto-win card for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Basically every way to win the game, even via combo, is going to change the board state somehow. So when you win, everyone has certainly lost. The auto-win cards are weird in that they don't change the game at all, so opponents can (and in my experience will) say, "Ok. You win. We're going to keep playing though." People will let slide a lifegain deck that occasionally wins via Test of Endurance, but a deck dedicated to that exclusively will probably get ignored after a few games.
The 12 auto-win cards that aren't banned are fundamentally different than Coalition Victory for the reasons people have pointed out. Regardless of its ability to be answered, it's the only sorcery in the game that says "You win", so surely we can infer some correlation there.
I think banning is a function of lameness and powerlevel. If something is really powerful but varied in its uses or interactive, it probably won't be banned. This is what keeps Tooth and Nail in the safe zone for now. And likewise, something that can end the game really unsatisfyingly but isn't powerful (like the 12 auto-win enchantments/artifact, or the hilarious Divine Intervention), it's fine.
Eh, CV just seems like one of the cards that falls under the "accidental" problem cards that the RV goes on about. Imagine if you're a new player and fifteen minutes into the game someone plays CV and says "I win." It's not really satisfying to the new player, especially for a format that promises lots of big plays and swings. CV isn't a big play, it's having your general out and casting one non-interactive spell. At least with T&N you have to attack someone to win, and Test of Endurance and the like require survival of a turn.
Well, I was assuming he's the general. Anyway, Coalition Victory DOESN'T end the game that turn, is what I'm saying. It's a multi-step process; first, you had to play the five-color legend, a land of each type, and get to 8 mana. If you do that over more than one turn, then you give your opponents every bit as much time to do something as with Test of Endurance. In fact, it's EASIER to handle than Test of Endurance, since every color can remove a creature and/or land. Coalition Victory can only be said to win the game "that turn" if you play it on the same turn as you play out your five-color creature, meaning a minimum of about 13 mana spent in one turn, with at least 2 mana of each color. That's more effort than most two-card combos, and is restricted only to 5-color decks. We've been playing with this card unbanned in our playgroup for months - it just gets pulled off so RIDICULOUSLY rarely.
You've got two options - play the game hardcore, or play the game casually. If you play the game casually, then CV never realistically happens (or happens so rarely that it's hardly "warping" or "unfun"). If you're playing the game hardcore, and running every possible tutor, mana accelerator/fixer, counterspell backup, leyline of anticipation to drop stuff in the opponent's end step, etc. - in other words, SUPER tuning your deck to win off of CV - well, then you're still handicapping yourself, because you could have put that exact same amount of effort in but picked a more manageable win condition.
This is missing the point. Obviously, there are more powerful and easier to pull off win cons that CV. But pulling off a win with CV is just lame.
At the point in the game where CV would be cast, you're probably pretty far along into the game. In an average EDH game, people probably have some dudes on the board, there's probably been some ramping, attacking, some board wipes, draw spells, etc. The game has a certain rhythm and momentum. It's not unusual to think that someone playing a 5C General like Scion of the Ur-Dragon has all 5 basic land types in play, and their general, just through normal use of fetchlands/duals and casting their general.
All of a sudden, that person top decks Coaltion Victory that they had just tossed into the deck. He taps 8 mana, and says "I win?" Not everyone packs their decks with instant speed answers for this kind of situation. It's lame for one spell to resolve and just completely ruin the whole momentum and enjoyment of the game. No one is happy - not the Scion player, no one. It's just a lame way for someone to win, and for the game to end. That's why Coalition Victory is banned.
Of course, there's other lame ways for the game to end (the Scion player could top deck Hermit Druid, and just win on the spot), but Coaltion Victory is accidentally lame. The first time you look at it, you think "Oh, this would be sweet in a 5 color deck, I'll just toss it in." Then, when you actually resolve it, you just realize that it ruins everyone's day (given, if you are a griefer, you might be happy about that). If you're building a Hermit Druid combo deck, you know what you're doing. The rules council wants to stop situations that would be accidentally unfun like this. But even seeing the Hermit Druid combo go off is much much cooler than one player just accidentally winning.
There are many cards that end the game that turn. Granted all have circumstances attached, but so does CV, so I say equal footing.
One that stands out the most in my mind is Exsanguinate.
Should Exsanguinate be banned? Not even close. But it has less answers than CV does.
You need huge amounts of mana to finish off everyone with Exsanguinate. There are just as many answers to it that CV has. Also, CV just wins. Casting Exsanguinate early turns does very little.
You need huge amounts of mana to finish off everyone with Exsanguinate. There are just as many answers to it that CV has. Also, CV just wins. Casting Exsanguinate early turns does very little.
It's much easier to nuke Protean Hulk repeatedly than it is to cast an entwined Tooth and Nail repeatedly. Sure, Hulk can't get any creatures at cc > 6, but there are plenty of amazing creatures at 6 and below. (For strict by-the-numbers comparison, there are currently 391 creatures at cc > 6, and 5953 creatures at cc <= 6. That's not to say all of them are good, of course ;))
There are certainly tutors other than Gifts Ungiven, but unlike most tutors, Gifts gives you two cards in hand, and two cards in your graveyard. For many decks, cards in the graveyard are just as good as in the hand. Sometimes better.
Whether or not you like the fact that a certain card is banned, it's usually easy to figure out why it was done, or why card X was banned over card Y.
your point about gifts is completely irrelevant. It was banned because it fetches combos... news flash... there are still a couple dozen ways to still do that as consistently and effectively. It's inconsistent and laughable at best. It's obviously not a balance solution, so what is it? A member of the RC got butt hurt? Intuition does the exact same thing, like you said, a card in the graveyard is just as good as a card in your hand for some decks.
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This is an awful reason for banning or not banning things. You should look to the most competitive players to give you a reasonable idea of what should and shouldn't be banned because they will actually break cards. Casual players will always lose to efficient strategies because they have chosen to not interact with them.
That is why we see people calling for the banning of all manner of non-broken things like Consecrated Sphinx, Primeval Titan, Cabal Coffers, Exsanguinate, etc. None of these cards are unbeatable, but they do happen to be efficient. Many people are going to complain about losing to cards like these, but they are of a reasonable power level and are therefore not worth banning.
Edit:
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means improve you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
While CV is a "one-card win" - it really isn't. It requires more set-up than most combos in the format, and at least it's decisive. It's not a lockdown or some such.
What I always wonder is - how do people WANT games to end? In my mind, I'm happiest when a night of EDH has four games that ended four different ways. In my playgroup, we have decks built around just about every win con you can imagine - there's a poison aggro deck, a poison control deck, several combo decks, lockdown decks, general damage via a big general, general damage via voltron, regular creature aggro, token swarms, any number of "win cards" like Felidar Sovereign, and even milling. Heck, one of our players has told us he plans to show off his Lab Maniac Wrexial deck this weekend (with the plan being to mill everyone out, including himself, so he has two ways to win). This, to me, is awesome. If in the midst of all that, someone managed to get out one of each basic land type, a five-color general, and maybe 11-13 mana (so they can have counterspell backup), all in one turn? Awesome!
Which is another thing to remember about Coalition Victory: you say that it isn't like the other "win" cards, because those give you a turn cycle, but THAT ISN'T TRUE. First off, if you're DEDICATED to having your deck win via Test of Endurance or something like it, you have ways to flash it in or sneak it in when people don't expect it. It's certainly possible, and you'd be trying to do so if that was your main win con. But even Coalition Victory gives you at least a turn - because if they're casting their five-color general AND Coalition Victory AND leaving up mana to counter, well then they deserve to win because they have 15+ mana open in a five-color deck. When the game gets to that point, you can't complain when someone wins. More likely, however, they play out their five-color general with a bit of mana open to counter, and then next turn, WHEN THEY UNTAP they play CV. So you really DO get at least as much time as with any other win card, you just have to be a savvy enough player to recognize the signs. Maybe they'll "trick" you once - but that should be it.
So everytime they play the general, you immediately have to kill it in fear of CV. If they're playing Progenitus (the most popular 5C legend for example), then you might as well scoop the moment the have enough mana to cast CV the next turn.
The main reason I think the RC banned this and Biorhythm is to have these "unfun" cards not ruin multiplayer games where 1 guy doesn't have to do anything at all except get his lands, general, and cast 1 spell. All the other I win cards, have upkeep or other much easier conditions to disrupt.
This is the main reason I personally have no problem with Coalition Victory being banned. Having to kill every five-colour general every time they're in play is a pain in the ass. It's not as fun a game to play even with just the shadow of the same instant win over your head.
As for Tooth and Nail, when Protean Hulk got banned I figured it was only a matter of time until its sorcery cousin was banned as well. Maybe it still is just a matter of time, but it's been able to hold out this long, so who knows. Maybe the banning of Protean Hulk was enough to warn people of the dangers of using Tooth and Nail irresponsibly. As for the 9 mana thing, remember that this banned list is targeted at casual players. Half of the time everyone at the table makes it to 9 mana, and at least 95% of the time at least one person does.
Everytime I play any of my generals, it's killed right away, so I don't see a difference between playing one of those and Progenitus. Yes, even my Sisters of Stone Death....get it on the board and dead....every. time. Likewise, I see my opponent's general played, I make a move to kill it. The deck is BUILT to abuse the general, so take away the general and it helps level the playing field. Maybe it's a pain to do, but it's something that must be done.
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How much spot removal does your group run? Because it sounds like you're going a little overboard if you can answer every general every time it hits the 'field... Don't get me wrong, playing answers are great, but you've gotta let a threat through at some point. Assessing any five-colour general as a high threat level by default thanks to a single card in their library is not something I want to do.
If it does get unbanned, it's not something I'd complain about and I would adjust my playing accordingly, but I'm certainly not concerned with this card sitting out. Ultimately, I think it would make games less enjoyable.
With that said I do think T&N should be banned. It isn't some specific win card. It now has many dudes you can grab and win on the spot. So what are answers to T&N? You could use a counter spell, or an instant board wipe. The problem with those is that not everyone will be in colors to play those answers. So what if T&N is a 9 mana, slow "blackhole card" even if you get to 9 without ramp, that is still fairly early in the game.
Other cards that people think are OP, but aren't are subject to "relative gravity" or the power level of your LGS. I say relative gravity, because gravity isn't the same everywhere in the universe. It is the same on the earth though. Gravity is like power level. They can't ban cards that are OP in some groups, but not in most. They need to ban cards that are OP in the average "gravity" or planet earth. So just because your group is fine with ban worthy cards doesn't mean they shouldn't be banned.
My Saffi deck
Wait... so the reason that CV should be banned is because you don't want to have to kill PROGENITUS every time he gets played? I hate to tell you this, man, but if Progenitus gets played and you DON'T kill it, Coalition Victory only gets them the win like, one turn sooner than they would have gotten it anyway. If you can't kill Progenitus, then uhh... well, that's about it for that game anyway.
Also, Protean Hulk is a weird one to ban, but I'm guessing it's because there were more people doing unfun things with him than anything else.
My guess was it was too easy to abuse it as if you let him
dye"die" (there happy) and get a Karmic Guide you rez and rekill him. It is a creature so green can easily tutor for it whereas T&N is relatively hard for green to go get and usually requires black to do so.The hulk was all around broken in a lot more ways and it is unpredictable to say how many targets he will bring in which can mean more utility creatures and so larger combos can be achieved at one time.
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Changing Protean Hulk's color does not trigger his ability.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
I don't believe that's anywhere close to discussion. Eats removal pretty easily, and doesn't work against wrath effects anyway.
RGodo, Bandit WarlordR
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Damn I wanted to make him platinum blond.
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Oh my Progenitus hits one of my other opponents or myself for 10 damage! We should all scoop!
On a serious note, coalition Victory ends the game that turn. Progenitus itself cannot kill 3+ players a turn later without some infinite attack phase combo.
There are many cards that end the game that turn. Granted all have circumstances attached, but so does CV, so I say equal footing.
One that stands out the most in my mind is Exsanguinate.
Should Exsanguinate be banned? Not even close. But it has less answers than CV does.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
You've got two options - play the game hardcore, or play the game casually. If you play the game casually, then CV never realistically happens (or happens so rarely that it's hardly "warping" or "unfun"). If you're playing the game hardcore, and running every possible tutor, mana accelerator/fixer, counterspell backup, leyline of anticipation to drop stuff in the opponent's end step, etc. - in other words, SUPER tuning your deck to win off of CV - well, then you're still handicapping yourself, because you could have put that exact same amount of effort in but picked a more manageable win condition.
Nicely summed up.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
I don't think anything is as anti-climatic as an auto-win card for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Basically every way to win the game, even via combo, is going to change the board state somehow. So when you win, everyone has certainly lost. The auto-win cards are weird in that they don't change the game at all, so opponents can (and in my experience will) say, "Ok. You win. We're going to keep playing though." People will let slide a lifegain deck that occasionally wins via Test of Endurance, but a deck dedicated to that exclusively will probably get ignored after a few games.
The 12 auto-win cards that aren't banned are fundamentally different than Coalition Victory for the reasons people have pointed out. Regardless of its ability to be answered, it's the only sorcery in the game that says "You win", so surely we can infer some correlation there.
Secondly- combos that result in a win, board lockdowns and mass destruction are banned, when they're annoying enough. Staff of Domination, Fastbond and Biorhythm are game winning combos, Painter's Servant was banned in part because of a lockdown combo, and Balance, Limited Resources and Upheaval all wreck manabases.
I think banning is a function of lameness and powerlevel. If something is really powerful but varied in its uses or interactive, it probably won't be banned. This is what keeps Tooth and Nail in the safe zone for now. And likewise, something that can end the game really unsatisfyingly but isn't powerful (like the 12 auto-win enchantments/artifact, or the hilarious Divine Intervention), it's fine.
Building silly decks for silly games.
This is missing the point. Obviously, there are more powerful and easier to pull off win cons that CV. But pulling off a win with CV is just lame.
At the point in the game where CV would be cast, you're probably pretty far along into the game. In an average EDH game, people probably have some dudes on the board, there's probably been some ramping, attacking, some board wipes, draw spells, etc. The game has a certain rhythm and momentum. It's not unusual to think that someone playing a 5C General like Scion of the Ur-Dragon has all 5 basic land types in play, and their general, just through normal use of fetchlands/duals and casting their general.
All of a sudden, that person top decks Coaltion Victory that they had just tossed into the deck. He taps 8 mana, and says "I win?" Not everyone packs their decks with instant speed answers for this kind of situation. It's lame for one spell to resolve and just completely ruin the whole momentum and enjoyment of the game. No one is happy - not the Scion player, no one. It's just a lame way for someone to win, and for the game to end. That's why Coalition Victory is banned.
Of course, there's other lame ways for the game to end (the Scion player could top deck Hermit Druid, and just win on the spot), but Coaltion Victory is accidentally lame. The first time you look at it, you think "Oh, this would be sweet in a 5 color deck, I'll just toss it in." Then, when you actually resolve it, you just realize that it ruins everyone's day (given, if you are a griefer, you might be happy about that). If you're building a Hermit Druid combo deck, you know what you're doing. The rules council wants to stop situations that would be accidentally unfun like this. But even seeing the Hermit Druid combo go off is much much cooler than one player just accidentally winning.
You need huge amounts of mana to finish off everyone with Exsanguinate. There are just as many answers to it that CV has. Also, CV just wins. Casting Exsanguinate early turns does very little.
Commandeer. Yoink.
Also, Erayo is banned. I am vreh sadface.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
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your point about gifts is completely irrelevant. It was banned because it fetches combos... news flash... there are still a couple dozen ways to still do that as consistently and effectively. It's inconsistent and laughable at best. It's obviously not a balance solution, so what is it? A member of the RC got butt hurt? Intuition does the exact same thing, like you said, a card in the graveyard is just as good as a card in your hand for some decks.