So, why is he still banned? Yes, he is powerful......but so are many 6cc creatures. I honestly think he should be banned only as a general. Thank you if you respond to me.
Primeval Titan is probably my favourite creature. I love him like a fat kid loves cake. But when he drops on the board, the game state is warped as everyone else desperately tries to stop him before they lose the game.
Yes, decks should and do run creature removal. But it's different with the green Titan. You aren't waiting for the opportune time to kill him. You don't wait to see who he'll attack. When someone else plays Primeval Titan, you panic as if a big hairy spider just dropped onto the board, as you try to whack it with everything and anything and WhyGodWon'tItJustDieAlready???
I'm willing to give up Primeval Titan for the game. Won't you?
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Primeval Titan is probably my favourite creature. I love him like a fat kid loves cake. But when he drops on the board, the game state is warped as everyone else desperately tries to stop him before they lose the game.
Yes, decks should and do run creature removal. But it's different with the green Titan. You aren't waiting for the opportune time to kill him. You don't wait to see who he'll attack. When someone else plays Primeval Titan, you panic as if a big hairy spider just dropped onto the board, as you try to whack it with everything and anything and WhyGodWon'tItJustDieAlready???
I'm willing to give up my favourite creature for the game. Won't you?
No.......i want him back. Kukusho was my attack detterent, and ive sat for too long without him.
Oh I see what happened. I was asking if people would be willing to give up Primeval Titan (ie, ban Titan), not if they'd give up their favourite creature (Kokusho or otherwise). Fixed my post to reflect that.
We know... I went to the EDH/Commander banlist page and he's still there. The question is: "why is he still there?"
my sentiments exactly. Koku can be handled easily with an exile or tuck spell. Maybe wizards is listening in and showing us how unbroken he really is, by giving us cards likePrimeval Titan andConsecrated Sphinx
So, why is he still banned? Yes, he is powerful......but so are many 6cc creatures. I honestly think he should be banned only as a general. Thank you if you respond to me.
From a fun standpoint, I wonder why he's on there yet yosei isn't. I have not seen a single valid argument justifying his banning.
I think it has something to do with how insane an advantage it gives when one person plays one, and another clones it, or plays one themselves, etc. I have no experience playing the card in EDH however, just my initial thoughts.
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I think it has something to do with how insane an advantage it gives when one person plays one, and another clones it, or plays one themselves, etc. I have no experience playing the card in EDH however, just my initial thoughts.
I have never had an experience where kokusho proved to warp the game around itself. I still believe he should be banned as a general since you don't want people to have easy access to him. His effect isn't even relevant if you kill him with general damage. Very rarely will a player deal 40 damage to everyone at once... they usually have a superior board position and 30 mana available.
Kokusho gives no advantage to the player who plays him unless he can kill the table with the life drain. Life advantage can be tricked by general damage or poison.
Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx are both more dangerous. And both have immediate impact on the board Kokusho on the other hand do something only if it put into the graveyard. We have tested it and Kokusho was only another threat nothing more.
Primeval Titan and Spinx are superior to kokusho in every way. They provide gross card advantage or excel. I've seen a player reanimate Ptitan multiple times to gain a ridiculous amount of mana to win the game. Even palinchron screams broken sauce compared to kokusho. The RC is just butt hurt about some random guy using kokusho to win. There is no other explanation for it. He doesn't warp the game like emrakul and he isn't as strong as sphinx and Ptitan........ Why is he on the banlist? It makes no sense.
It is ironic that Kokusho is considered a stronger card than both Rofellos and Braids, Cabal Minion. Those two cards are banned as generals but at least they can go in your deck. A mono-green mana doubler for 2 mana and the general version of smokestack are somehow outclassed by a 5/5 flier with a 5 point exsanguinate attached? Something is VERY wrong with this picture.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
From what I remember, Sheldon has petitioned for Kokusho's unbanning with the rest of the RC, but a few of them harbor bad memories from the days of Recurring Nightmare/Kokusho kills, so much so that they refuse to testplay against any deck with Kokusho in it.
From what I remember, Sheldon has petitioned for Kokusho's unbanning with the rest of the RC, but a few of them harbor bad memories from the days of Recurring Nightmare/Kokusho kills, so much so that they refuse to testplay against any deck with Kokusho in it.
We aren't suggesting bringing back both, we are suggesting just kokusho. Bringing back recurring nightmare is most likely a mistake. Recurring nightmare was the broken part of the combo, not Kokusho. It's like saying banefire is overpowered because my opponent used palinchron to gain infinite mana. It doesn't make much sense. If members of the RC refuse to even play test against decks with kokusho... why are they still members of the RC? They are clearly not even willing to play test an idea. That short sighted attitude is not healthy for a format gaining more visibility.
With the abundance of mana ramp flying around and few ways to really combat it without being total deuche and geddoning it all away and white being one of the most subpar colors... I've been thinking alot about Balance. I've never really used the card in any seriously degenerate ways, just to punish over extenders.
Whats the primary argument for the card being banned currently?
With the abundance of mana ramp flying around and few ways to really combat it without being total deuche and geddoning it all away and white being one of the most subpar colors... I've been thinking alot about Balance. I've never really used the card in any seriously degenerate ways, just to punish over extenders.
Whats the primary argument for the card being banned currently?
It's one of the least balanced cards in the game because all you have to do to build around it is play no creatures and not as much ramp. Noncreature artifact ramp and enchantments? Safe! Put Balance in a Zur or Uril deck, and suddenly, its drawback doesn't matter at all.
It doesn't just punish excessive ramp, it punishes any sort of extending whatsoever, because the player using balance is free to play as many lands or creatures as he or she wants before casting it.
i like the unbanning of worldgorger dragon. i'm tending to agree with the people who say that banning less cards is better, though i'd like to see a shorter list of cards that must be banned, and a list of cards that could be unfun to play against due to either being infinite combo pieces or creating degenerating game states.
i think that people should remember that they always could houseban... though housebanning has its issues. i'll explain:
my playgroup frowned on mass landbust (i used to run 3-4 of them in my jhoira deck) so heavily that they housebanned it. once prime time came on the scene, it was only a matter of time before GB(x) players tapped into the mana wackiness that is prime time + nim deathmantle + a sac outlet. play prime time, search for coffers and urborg, genesis him out of the yard if he dies before next turn, then go nuts after you untap. our teneb player did this, which led me to orchestrate players into immediate action against him; when the combo's running, he's got 30 lands (all swamps!) on the table on turn 8 or 9, making 50+ mana a turn. he's gotta go. after he got pissed at being targeted, i suggested we unban mass landbust, as a way to keep all the prime time players honest. he went nuts, that we would bring in cards to hate him - more than i had complained when all the WB(x) players would identity crisis my savra deck five times a game. (yay for riftsweeper being unbanned; i would still win sometimes! ) the fight over whether or not to unban mass landbust actually fractured our group, as our host decided to quit EDH because it was becoming "too broken."
we need two lists - hard bans and soft bans. i grow more convinced day by day of this.
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Balance costs 1W. That is simply too powerful for 2 mana.
Probably the only reasonable argument against the card. Whites section of color pie flavorfully sits to me with balance in mind. In this format I'm not so sure that someones inclusion of balance into a deck would be that bad... its not like its that easy to design an EDH deck around screwing an entire table by playing it. Extended used to have Cascade into restore balance which was pretty dirty but 60 card deck, much smaller life totals, 4 copies of "balance" 16 some odd cascade cards and you could virtually build the deck with border posts essentially maintaining zero lands.
In EDH its impossible to mirror such ruthless deck building... 1 maybe 2 boarder posts... running less land is possible trading more of it for artifact lands... but how is that any different than playing an armageddon? Because it sweeps creature too? Because it evens out hand sizes? White (and red too) have virtually zero ways to develop card advantage and one of the historically few ways of getting some advantage is banned? 2 mana for the effect might be a little small but Shahrazad essentially reads 2 mana each opponent loses half his or her life rounded up. Seriously i think i would grimace MORE if my opponent played an armageddon than balance... atleast if i have no creatures or cards in the grip neither does anyone else... and thats not even considering comparing it to cards in different colors *cough*time stretch*cough*
Hell i would play:
Hyper Balance 2WW
Sorcery
Each player chooses a number of lands he or she controls equal to the number of lands controlled by the player who controls the fewest, then sacrifices the rest. Then do the same for each other permanent type and cards in hand.
Ramp just feels out of control right now and the only way to counter it is Armageddon which is considered too deuchy for most people... Just replacing armageddon with balance would achieve the same goals i'm after... granted with some added effects like a mini sweeper and discard package, but to me it seems sad that whites most powerful cards are primarily sweepers... nothing compared to yawgmoth's will, time stretch and Tooth and Nail.
Will kokusho, the evening star be unbanned with commander? I'm just curious how this will work now.
So, why is he still banned? Yes, he is powerful......but so are many 6cc creatures. I honestly think he should be banned only as a general. Thank you if you respond to me.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyYes, decks should and do run creature removal. But it's different with the green Titan. You aren't waiting for the opportune time to kill him. You don't wait to see who he'll attack. When someone else plays Primeval Titan, you panic as if a big hairy spider just dropped onto the board, as you try to whack it with everything and anything and WhyGodWon'tItJustDieAlready???
I'm willing to give up Primeval Titan for the game. Won't you?
BRGotta Get or Get GotRB
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No.......i want him back. Kukusho was my attack detterent, and ive sat for too long without him.
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Er, I was talking about Primeval Titan...
BRGotta Get or Get GotRB
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i was responding to your question.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyOh I see what happened. I was asking if people would be willing to give up Primeval Titan (ie, ban Titan), not if they'd give up their favourite creature (Kokusho or otherwise). Fixed my post to reflect that.
BRGotta Get or Get GotRB
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We know... I went to the EDH/Commander banlist page and he's still there. The question is: "why is he still there?"
my sentiments exactly. Koku can be handled easily with an exile or tuck spell. Maybe wizards is listening in and showing us how unbroken he really is, by giving us cards likePrimeval Titan andConsecrated Sphinx
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicyhttp://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6821
That's one perspective. If we were banning solely to try to make the format competitive, he'd have a good chance of coming off.
From a fun standpoint, I wonder why he's on there yet yosei isn't. I have not seen a single valid argument justifying his banning.
I think it has something to do with how insane an advantage it gives when one person plays one, and another clones it, or plays one themselves, etc. I have no experience playing the card in EDH however, just my initial thoughts.
I have never had an experience where kokusho proved to warp the game around itself. I still believe he should be banned as a general since you don't want people to have easy access to him. His effect isn't even relevant if you kill him with general damage. Very rarely will a player deal 40 damage to everyone at once... they usually have a superior board position and 30 mana available.
Primeval Titan and Spinx are superior to kokusho in every way. They provide gross card advantage or excel. I've seen a player reanimate Ptitan multiple times to gain a ridiculous amount of mana to win the game. Even palinchron screams broken sauce compared to kokusho. The RC is just butt hurt about some random guy using kokusho to win. There is no other explanation for it. He doesn't warp the game like emrakul and he isn't as strong as sphinx and Ptitan........ Why is he on the banlist? It makes no sense.
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We aren't suggesting bringing back both, we are suggesting just kokusho. Bringing back recurring nightmare is most likely a mistake. Recurring nightmare was the broken part of the combo, not Kokusho. It's like saying banefire is overpowered because my opponent used palinchron to gain infinite mana. It doesn't make much sense. If members of the RC refuse to even play test against decks with kokusho... why are they still members of the RC? They are clearly not even willing to play test an idea. That short sighted attitude is not healthy for a format gaining more visibility.
Whats the primary argument for the card being banned currently?
Balance isn't. At all.
It's one of the least balanced cards in the game because all you have to do to build around it is play no creatures and not as much ramp. Noncreature artifact ramp and enchantments? Safe! Put Balance in a Zur or Uril deck, and suddenly, its drawback doesn't matter at all.
It doesn't just punish excessive ramp, it punishes any sort of extending whatsoever, because the player using balance is free to play as many lands or creatures as he or she wants before casting it.
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Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
i think that people should remember that they always could houseban... though housebanning has its issues. i'll explain:
my playgroup frowned on mass landbust (i used to run 3-4 of them in my jhoira deck) so heavily that they housebanned it. once prime time came on the scene, it was only a matter of time before GB(x) players tapped into the mana wackiness that is prime time + nim deathmantle + a sac outlet. play prime time, search for coffers and urborg, genesis him out of the yard if he dies before next turn, then go nuts after you untap. our teneb player did this, which led me to orchestrate players into immediate action against him; when the combo's running, he's got 30 lands (all swamps!) on the table on turn 8 or 9, making 50+ mana a turn. he's gotta go. after he got pissed at being targeted, i suggested we unban mass landbust, as a way to keep all the prime time players honest. he went nuts, that we would bring in cards to hate him - more than i had complained when all the WB(x) players would identity crisis my savra deck five times a game. (yay for riftsweeper being unbanned; i would still win sometimes! ) the fight over whether or not to unban mass landbust actually fractured our group, as our host decided to quit EDH because it was becoming "too broken."
we need two lists - hard bans and soft bans. i grow more convinced day by day of this.
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And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
Probably the only reasonable argument against the card. Whites section of color pie flavorfully sits to me with balance in mind. In this format I'm not so sure that someones inclusion of balance into a deck would be that bad... its not like its that easy to design an EDH deck around screwing an entire table by playing it. Extended used to have Cascade into restore balance which was pretty dirty but 60 card deck, much smaller life totals, 4 copies of "balance" 16 some odd cascade cards and you could virtually build the deck with border posts essentially maintaining zero lands.
In EDH its impossible to mirror such ruthless deck building... 1 maybe 2 boarder posts... running less land is possible trading more of it for artifact lands... but how is that any different than playing an armageddon? Because it sweeps creature too? Because it evens out hand sizes? White (and red too) have virtually zero ways to develop card advantage and one of the historically few ways of getting some advantage is banned? 2 mana for the effect might be a little small but Shahrazad essentially reads 2 mana each opponent loses half his or her life rounded up. Seriously i think i would grimace MORE if my opponent played an armageddon than balance... atleast if i have no creatures or cards in the grip neither does anyone else... and thats not even considering comparing it to cards in different colors *cough*time stretch*cough*
Hell i would play:
Hyper Balance 2WW
Sorcery
Each player chooses a number of lands he or she controls equal to the number of lands controlled by the player who controls the fewest, then sacrifices the rest. Then do the same for each other permanent type and cards in hand.
Ramp just feels out of control right now and the only way to counter it is Armageddon which is considered too deuchy for most people... Just replacing armageddon with balance would achieve the same goals i'm after... granted with some added effects like a mini sweeper and discard package, but to me it seems sad that whites most powerful cards are primarily sweepers... nothing compared to yawgmoth's will, time stretch and Tooth and Nail.